Wine Stories, Food Pairings, and Canadian Wines with Inside Winemaking’s Jim Duane



What is it really like to be a wine industry insider? How can stories help you to learn? What makes Riesling one of the most food-friendly wines?

In this episode of the Unreserved Wine Talk podcast, I’m being interviewed by Jim Duane, winemaker and host of the Inside Winemaking Podcast.

You can find the wines we discussed here.


Join me on Instagram, Facebook and YouTube Live Video

Join the live-stream video of this conversation on Wednesday at 7 pm eastern on Instagram Live Video, Facebook Live Video or YouTube Live Video.

I’ll be jumping into the comments as we watch it together so that I can answer your questions in real-time.

I want to hear from you! What’s your opinion of what we’re discussing? What takeaways or tips do you love most from this chat? What questions do you have that we didn’t answer?

Want to know when we go live?

Add this to your calendar:





  • What was my path from high-tech marketer to wine writer?
  • How can you find out what it’s really like to be on the inside of the wine industry?
  • What can you expect from my upcoming third book?
  • How can novices and experts benefit from my online food and wine pairing classes?
  • Which types of food can you best pair with an off-dry Riesling?
  • How can you use the food and wine matching tool on my website to plan your next wine-paired dinner?
  • What do you need to know about Canadian wine?

Start The Conversation: Click Below to Share These Wine Tips

About Jim Duane

Jim Duane studied biology at Gonzaga University in Spokane, Washington then worked at Brancott Vineyards in New Zealand. Hauling rocks in the vineyard, he says, helped him get ready for graduate school at the renowned University of California at Davis oenology program. In 2004, he moved to Napa where he’s been ever since.

Jim is now the winemaker at Seavey Vineyard in California’s Napa Valley. Prior to that, he worked at Stag’s Leap Wine Cellars and Robert Mondavi Winery.

In 2014, he launched a podcast called Inside Winemaking, which is ranked one of the most popular wine podcasts. In 2021, he launched Terratorium Wines as a direct result of his podcast and winemaking classes. Jim and his wife Erin have two daughters that keep them busy. Recently, he notes, they logged four pulled-teeth in a 36-hour period.



Tag Me on Social

Tag me on social media if you enjoyed the episode:


Thirsty for more?

  • Sign up for my free online wine video class where I’ll walk you through The 5 Wine & Food Pairing Mistakes That Can Ruin Your Dinner (and how to fix them forever!)
  • You’ll find my books here, including Unquenchable: A Tipsy Quest for the World’s Best Bargain Wines and Red, White and Drunk All Over: A Wine-Soaked Journey from Grape to Glass.
  • The new audio edition of Red, White and Drunk All Over: A Wine-Soaked Journey from Grape to Glass is now available on, and other country-specific Amazon sites;, and other country-specific iTunes sites; and



Natalie MacLean 0:00
I simplify sweet meets heat. It’s great when what’s in your glass has a touch of natural sweetness to go with the spices or the heat in your dish. The last thing you want is a lot of alcohol which is like pouring lighter fluid on a fire of a hot dish. Just exacerbates it. There’s lots more pairings for Riesling even just potato chips. The salty. The fat. Although I do think sparkling wine is an even better pairing. But Riesling is hands down one of the most food friendly wines on the planet. There are few things that it doesn’t go as perhaps because of texture and weight. Maybe not a big slab of steak, but Riesling is one of my go-tos for pairing.

Jim Duane 0:43
Very cool. Thank you for that. I appreciate it.

Natalie MacLean 0:46
Oh, my pleasure. I’m here to help.

Natalie MacLean 0:54
Do you have a thirst to learn about wine? Do you love stories about wonderfully obsessive people, hauntingly beautiful places and amusingly awkward social situations. Well, that’s the blend here on the Unreserved Wine Talk podcast. I’m your host, Natalie MacLean. And each week, I share with you unfiltered conversations with celebrities in the wine world, as well as confessions from my own tipsy journey as I write my third book on this subject. I’m so glad you’re here. Now pass me that bottle please. And let’s get started. Welcome to Episode 190. What’s it really like to be a wine industry insider? How can stories help you learn about wine? What makes Riesling one of the most food friendly wines on the planet? You’ll hear those tips and more in my chat with Jim Duane winemaker and host of the popular podcast called Inside Winemaking. Jim’s actually interviewing me in this chat. Now on a personal note before we dive into the show with the continuing story of publishing my new wine memoir Wine Witch on Fire: Rising from the Ashes of Divorce, Depression, Defamation and Drinking Too Much. What do you think? I asked my partner Miles about the latest draft of my memoir. It’s well written, he said. What do you mean? Be more specific. It flows. Flows how? I dunno, to the end. This is why family members and even close friends are not ideal beta readers for a book. Especially if they’re too close to the subject. That’d be me, or yet too far from it. Meaning this isn’t the type of book that they usually read. Miles reads thrillers science and history. A woman’s coming-of-age story is not exactly a natural choice for him, even though he’s in this book. He tried to skip to those pages by the way, but I told him that’s cheating. Anyhoo, he supports the book, and me, in many other ways. If memoir is your genre, please let me know your favourites for my summer reading list. I’ve posted a link to a blog post called Diary of a Book Launch in the show notes at Natalie This is where I share more behind the scenes stories about the journey of taking this memoir from idea to publication. If you want a more intimate insider seat beside me on this journey, please let me know that you’d like to become a beta reader and get a sneak peek at the manuscript. Email me at [email protected]. Okay, on with the show.

Jim Duane 3:47
All right. Good morning. I’m very excited to have this podcast and get this going. Today I have from Canada, first podcast guest from Canada, Natalie Maclean. Natalie, welcome to the podcast. How’s it going today? It’s great to be with you, Jim. It’s great. It’s a lot colder where I am than where you are. But I’m thrilled to be here with you. Awesome. Well, my podcast has run the gamut of many topics and some very strict about wine making and others having to do with some more aspects of wine business, which is one of the cool things about wine itself is that it affects us in so many ways, culturally, not just as a beverage. So I’m very excited to have you on: A,  so we can talk about Canada because it’s kind of this black hole that I know so little about the Canadian wine industry. And we can talk about why that is? Some of the politics and the laws that make it difficult. But also I want to get some great information from what I know you to be a wonderful resource of finding and educating customers on learning about wine and learning about how to pair food and wine. And we’re going to talk about some of your media outlets and your platforms and your courses. So maybe, Natalie, could you start by giving

Jim Duane 5:00
A little bit of your background and how it relates to wine or not. And then we’ll talk about Canada wine industry, please.

Natalie MacLean 5:06
Sure. So I been writing about wine for about 20 years or so. So I’m an older vintage. But I didn’t start my career in wine. I think a lot of people come in this route, especially if you’re writing about wine. So I did an MBA and then worked in high tech. And actually, my first entree to wine was California wine, specifically, Napa Valley, because what I did is I was a marketing manager up here in Canada for a supercomputer company that was headquartered in Mountain View, California, now the campus of Google. And so what I started doing after a bit was arranging my meetings on Thursdays or Fridays, so that I could spend the weekend in Napa and Sonoma. Because I had no patience for golf, or Spanish lessons, or whatever, being in a Type A who, you know, never took vacation, and so on. But I had to take clients out for dinner, and I started developing a real love of wine and wanted to learn more about it. So Napa was just an hour drive north from Mountain View. And that’s where I really got my entree. So I took a sommelier diploma programme. And then when I went on maternity leave, was off for a year because, of course, no vacation. And I thought, well, I want to keep my brain alive. So I pitched a local magazine  Wine on the Internet when that was actually a topic back in the Palaeolithic Era and they took it. Became a regular column. I didn’t go back to high tech, even though I loved it, but I was able to cold call other newspapers and magazines. So that’s kind of how I got into the writing aspect.

Jim Duane 6:45
And you are I know, working on your third book, but can you talk about the first two books that you’ve already published? And what their titles are? I’ll put those in the show notes as well.

Natalie MacLean 6:54
Absolutely. So you know, I’m very serious about my approach to wine. The first book was called Red, White and Drunk All Over:  A Wine Soaked Journey from Grape to Glass. So, hashtag not so serious. But what I was trying to do, Jim, was get inside the wine world. So rather than just interview people, and report on it from the sidelines, I took the New Journalism approach of Truman Capote and Joe Didion and George Plimpton. George Plimpton was a great writer. Instead of writing about football, he spent a year in the NFL, and wrote about it.  So I did day in the life. So I helped, well, it was Bonny Doon, Randall Graham helped with the harvest there. I spent several evenings as a sommelier in a five diamond restaurant here in Canada, fancy French restaurant, where I made many mistakes. I worked in wine stores, so that I could tell the stories from the inside. So what is it like not just to be a sommelier or helping with the harvest but what can you learn about this. What is good restaurant service? What makes for great wine? What is the process? Of course, these were by no means lifelong career. So it was still a short snippet, but I felt it was more satisfying for me as a writer, and for my readers, to get those insights from the inside. And I absolutely loved it. It’s been an approach I’ve used for both books. My second book was Unquenchable: A Tipsy Search for the World’s Best Bargain Bottles. And so I still went out there and talk to winemakers and spent time with them. Especially the ones that were slightly unhinged, and didn’t have PR people protecting them and would say these random things that were hilarious and colourful, because that’s what makes a story. So we’re wired for storytelling. So that was my approach in the first two books.

Jim Duane 8:49
Did you want to talk about your book you’re currently working on? Or should we come back to that after we go through a couple other subjects?

Natalie MacLean 8:55
Well, since we’re here now, happy to mention it, I am working on a memoir. So memoir is very different. It’s actually a really different animal from the first two books. The first two books are written in first person, but this one it’s almost like the difference between going on a job interview to get a job and going on a first date. It’s so much more intimate. It’s like, you know, writing a memoir, it’s like living your life twice. And I have signed a deal with a publisher. So we’ll see but it’s called the Wine Witch, how I rose from the ashes of divorce, depression and defamation without becoming an alcoholic. So there’s a bit of whimsy there, but this book deals with also some serious issues. So the sort of the movie plot line is just months after my husband of 20 years suddenly asked me for a divorce, I became embroiled in a viciously misogynistic online attack. It was devastated by these two events together, that really threatened my personal and professional life. And I really had to choose whether to retreat into bitterness and the false comfort of my increasing wine consumption, which is tricky thing to navigate when you live surrounded by wine, or to rally and reclaim my son, my career, my faith and a new love and, ultimately, my self worth. So again, it’s very deeply personal. And I think right now, the stage I’m at is I have a small but mighty beta reader group. So beta readers, or people who read the book while it’s still in progress, because I really want people to tell me their impressions, and how to make this book a better book. And I love their insights and what they’re bringing to the reading experience, but also just the resonance of not just women, but men who are reading this book and saying, Wow, that story, it may not be my exact story. But I’ve been through some of these things, whether it’s a divorce or depression, or even being cancelled online. And I love that that connection is why I write and so I am looking for more beta readers, if any of your listeners would love to get a sneak peek at this manuscript, give me their input, I would love for them to email me at [email protected]. And maybe you can put that in the show notes, too. Sure. Great. Thank you.

Jim Duane 11:21
And congratulations on connecting with publisher. And you know, I’ve been listening your podcast, I know that’s been a journey.

Natalie MacLean 11:27
It has been a journey. I mean, publishing these days has changed so much. There are more options than ever. To self publish, which is a great thing but to go through a traditional publisher, meaning Penguin, Random House, the Big Five, or there are more than just those big publishers, and that’s the route I’m going. It’s really tough. Like you have to bring your own audience. The days of marketing and book tours are done, especially with COVID. Everybody really expects an author to do the marketing and to bring the audience and that’s fine. It’s just the reality now, but it’s a slog, I’d say it’s almost as tough as marketing a bottle of wine, Jim.

Jim Duane 12:09
Yeah, well, I’m still hoping to learn how to do that someday. So Natalie, maybe this is a good time for you to describe sort of your media outlet and all your platforms so people can understand some of the different ways that you put out content.

Natalie MacLean 12:25
Sure. So one of the things I do now, in addition to writing, is teaching online wine and food pairing classes, and I absolutely love that. My mother was a teacher. My grandmother was a teacher. She was an English teacher specifically, and she had no patience for dangling participles and misplaced adjectives or she actually axed all my adjectives, and she made me memorize poetry on the front veranda step of her home in Cape Breton, Nova Scotia. Weirdly enough, she rewarded me with lima beans, not candy. So she was just anyway, she’s memorable. And she’s part of why I write today or teach as well. And so I found teaching really brought me back to my second love. So writing will always be first. But teaching is a really close second. When I was growing up in Nova Scotia, I taught Highland dancing to about 300 children, before I went away for the MBA, as part of why I probably got into the MBA, because I was running a dance school and didn’t realize it. But anyway, so I’m back to that, taking my passion for wine and teaching it through online courses, and specifically about wine and food pairing because I think food is so much less intimidating than wine for many people. It’s a great entry point into the world of wine, because you know, how can you get nervous buying a cantaloupe? But you know, when you’re faced with a wall of dry Rieslings, or whatever that might pair with nicely with that cantaloupe, a lot of wine lovers freeze. And yet even at the other end of the spectrum, those who are expert who’ve taken sommelier courses also gravitate toward this course because a lot of the professional programmes don’t go really in depth into food and wine pairing. And so I get both novices and experts taking these courses. And it’s just a lot of fun. I mean, just all the experimentation with food and wine from fast food dishes to multiple course gourmet meals. And we get to connect, you know. I know a lot of people are Zoomed out, but when you’re doing the food and wine pairing, it’s just so relaxing and you can connect with others who share your passion.

Jim Duane 14:36
You know, I think that I have taken my career almost in an extreme direction of wine and winemaking and technical stuff and viticulture to the detriment of some of the things you were talking about. That interplay of food and wine and that it comes to mind because we just for the Terratorium brand that I’m part of we’ve just bottled a Riesling. And  so anytime you have a Riesling, first question you get, is it dry? I sort of waver with my answer because it’s a hard one to answer. It’s nine grammes per litre TA and sugar so it tastes dry, but it’s certainly not dry, especially when I think about technical dryness.  Can I hit you up for some parents for a Riesling like that? You mentioned cantaloupe, which is cool. I’ve never heard that before. But for something that’s where you can’t perceive sweetness, but there is sugar there. Like what comes to mind is good pairing, and then we’ll get back to your platforms.

Natalie MacLean 15:31
Sure. And one thing that I sort of put at the front end of Riesling discussion, and it’s not technical, and it’s probably wrong in all sorts of ways as a metaphor, but I tell folks think of lemonade. Lemonade without the sugar would taste just puckeringly sour. Lemonade without the lemons would taste insipidly sweet. And what comes together in Riesling is that perfect balance of refreshment and yet deliciousness. So you’ve got the sugar and the acidity working together beautifully. And that’s why to your point, an off dry or somewhat sweet Riesling can taste really dry and refreshing. So I can see why, you know, it’s difficult for you to answer because people get the wrong impression. And it’s not till they try Riesling that, you know, they open up their world and go oh my goodness, this is so good. So with off dry Riesling I mean it just has so many more food pairing possibilities, I think, than say a lot of dry white wines. And in particular, dry Chardonnay, not necessarily from California, but Chardonnay, when it’s full bodied, when it has some or a lot of oak, when it’s higher in alcohol, a much harder match than Riesling, which tends to be lower and alcohol, have some of that sweetness and so on. Because if you think about a lot of the dishes we love to eat these days, they’re either spicy or they have some heat to it. You know, might be takeout, it might be dishes we like to prepare, you know, whether it’s an Asian dish or an Indian curry or whatever. These are wonderful flavours that can really kill a chard. But yet Riesling, you know, elbows in there gently beside the dish, and it’s a beautiful companion. I also sort of simplify sweet meets heat. It’s great when you know what’s in your glass has a touch of natural sweetness to go with the spices or the heat in your dish. Because the last thing you want is a lot of alcohol which is like pouring lighter fluid on a fire of a hot dish. It just exacerbates it. So you know there’s just so many there’s lots more pairings for Riesling. You know even just potato chips. The salty. The fat. Although I do think sparkling wine is an even better pairing. But Riesling is just hands down one of the most food friendly wines on the planet. There are few things that it doesn’t go as perhaps because of texture and weight. Maybe not a big slab of steak, but Riesling is one of my go twos for pairing.

Jim Duane 18:11
Very cool. Thank you for that. I appreciate it.

Natalie MacLean 18:13
Oh, my pleasure. I’m here to help.

Jim Duane 18:15
So Natalie, is your website, the base of your platform? What do you consider to be your most well known outlet?

Natalie MacLean 18:23
The website is my base. So N A T A L I E M A C L E A N. There’s lots of wrong ways to spell it. But anyway, you’ll eventually find me. And from there, you can find my courses, you can find my podcast Unreserved Wine Talk, you can find the books, you can find the mobile apps and other things where I am on social media. But yeah, it’s kind of a repository of where I’ve put all my work over the years, and the tools, the Food and Wine matching tools that I have. So for instance, you can start with a food, a dish like curry chicken, and just click a button and it’s going to tell you what types of wines and then if you choose one of those wines, like an off dry Riesling. It’ll go to a screen where it’ll show you the recent things I’ve reviewed recently. And then you can keep clicking, and it’ll show you what stores have them in stock. And you can do that journey from the other way. You can say I already have an off dry Riesling, what dish and then they’ll tell you the dishes and then you can go to recipes. So that’s where all the tools are would be my website.

Jim Duane 19:33
How long have you been creating these courses and this content of specifically pairing foods and wine?

Natalie MacLean 19:40
Pairing I feel like it’s been all my life from, not that I drank as a child but you know, I was developing my sensory palate early on. And I got tested by Tim Hanni in California and I’m a super taster and it all makes sense now. Those extra two taste buds and so on as to why I never liked bitter foods. So I feel like the food and wine pairing goes back to childhood. And those darn lima beans. But, you know, in terms of focusing on it professionally, it’s been since the beginning. It’s the way I found an entry point into wine that was less intimidating for me. So, you know, over the past 20 years, I’ve been doing a lot of experimenting, including, you know, what pairings don’t work really bad bearings to avoid. So yeah, it’s been a long journey, but so much fun.

Jim Duane 20:33
Are you self taught cook? Or where did you learn to prepare food?

Natalie MacLean 20:37
Oh, no, I learned to find people who would cook for me. I met my husband at graduate school. And it wasn’t till we graduated that we finally had some money. So we would go out for dinner a lot while we were childless. So that lasted 20 years. And then my new partner, whom I’ve been with for 10 years, loves to cook. It’s perfect. I’ve never letting him go. And he loves to cook. I say you cook, I pull corks. So it’s a great pairing of people too. But I love to eat. So you know, what happened is, you know, all that dining out while I was in high tech. It’s almost like someone who hears beautiful piano music for 20 years or so. I just don’t have the patience now to take lessons. You know, to learn how to cook I did try at the beginning. And it was like, it just all tasted like one ambiguous vegetable. I was doing stir frys. I was like, I’m not doing this. That’s just let’s go out. So that ended there.

Jim Duane 21:43
Okay, and then for your podcast was kind of the focus of Unreserved Wine Talk.

Natalie MacLean 21:48
I love to interview people. It allows me to be nosy. And as I was telling you a little bit, when I interviewed you on my podcast, I get to ask impertinent questions. I get to monopolize someone’s time for, you know, anywhere from a half an hour to an hour. But I’m really curious. I’m an introvert. So this suits me perfectly. So I can go in, go right to the heart of something, we don’t have to talk about the weather. And I can ask them why they did what they did. What were their most memorable failures, if you will? What did they learn from that? It’s all in the context of the wine world, of course. But I really love to get to know someone as a person is I think, again, that’s all about storytelling. Our brains are wired for stories. You know, scientific studies show that our brain waves start to sync between the listener and the teller of a story. It’s uncanny. But it probably goes back to childhood, when we were read to as a child, or we listen to books, and we start to enter into that world. I think podcasts offer that like no other medium. It’s intimate. It’s the theatre of your mind. You have to co- create with the host and the person they’re talking to. Because you can’t see usually, you’re filling in the details. You’re bringing your story to their story, which is, I think, the best of all worlds. And I absolutely love it. It also lets me call on people I don’t even know and say, Hey, would you like to talk for an hour. And they don’t know me, but they can see I have a podcast. They can see who I’ve interviewed in the past that helps, too, with, you know, building credibility. And we just take it from there. And I absolutely love it. It worked with you, Jim.

Jim Duane 23:42
It was a good time. I had fun.

Natalie MacLean 23:45
Yeah that was a great conversation. Absolutely loved it. You had some great stories.

Jim Duane 23:49
Thank you. So Natalie, I want to learn about the Canadian wine industry. And I’m embarrassed for how little I know and I have some excuses about the politics and the tariffs and the trade. But I’ve only had a chance to taste a flight of Canadian wines. Okay, that’s not true. Everyone in America has at some point tasted some Inniskillin or some Canadian sweet wine, but that’s I know, just a small part or a part of the Canadian wine industry. I got a chance to taste some Pinot Noir is from BC, but only because a friend, who’s Canadian, brought them down, you know, carried them over the border as they travelled. Can you talk a little bit about those impediments in what the Canadian wine industry looks like today?

Natalie MacLean 24:34
Sure. I think it’s bigger than a lot of people think. From coast to coast, we have 800 wineries, and I do believe that the stereotype still is the ice wine. Of course we are the largest producer because lucky us we are consistently cold, year after year. So Germany, the home of ice wine, produces ice wine, maybe three to four years out of 10. We produce it every year. And it has to be, you know, the grapes are picked at minus eight degrees Celsius, which I’m not good at converting to Fahrenheit. But just let’s say it’s extremely cold. It’s below freezing. So that’s what we’re known for. And Inniskillin, the winery you mentioned, put us on the map, because they won one of the big competitions years ago. But we produce a lot of terrific still table wines, both red and white. As you can imagine, it would be cool climate grapes, so Chardonnay, Pinot Noir and Cabernet Franc. And then there are hybrids, and oh, Riesling, of course, a lot of German varitatals. So we make wine from coast to coast. But the major wine producing regions are, of course, Ontario, which makes depending on if you’re measuring volume or dollars 80 to 90% of wine. And then BC is about 8 to 10%. And then you’ve got maybe a percent or two in Quebec in Nova Scotia, the rest of the provinces all make wine, but it’s from fruit that is not grapes, because it’s just too cold. So that’s kind of the helicopter view of Canadian wine. But it’s growing. I mean, like everywhere, I mean, new wineries are popping up it seems every week. Lots of small producers, which of course, don’t make it to the States because we don’t produce enough to fill any sort of liquor chain on a consistent basis. So you’ll get to taste Canadian wine, perhaps on a restaurant list if you’re lucky. Or if you come to visit one of the wine regions, which is really worth doing because they’re gorgeous, all wine regions. I don’t think I’ve been to an ugly wine region. But you can visit the wineries. There’s lots of wineries with restaurants attached so you get that food and wine pairing experience. But there’s a host of other activities. You can do like ballooning and biking and spas and everything else. It’s really a lovely vacation spot, whichever region you want to pick.

Natalie MacLean 27:08
Well, there you have it. I hope you enjoyed my chat with Jim. In the shownotes, you’ll find my email contact, the full transcript of my conversation with Jim links to his podcast and website. And where you can find the live stream video version of these conversations on Facebook and YouTube Live every Wednesday at 7pm. You’ll also find a link to my free online class called Five Food and Wine Pairing Mistakes that can Ruin Your Dinner, and How to Fix Them Forever. That’s all in the show notes at Email me if you have a sip, tip, or would like to become a beta reader of my new memoir at [email protected]. You won’t want to miss next week when we continue our chat with Jim. In the meantime, if you missed episode 108 go back and take a listen. I chat about the International Cool Climate Chardonnay Celebration, IC4, which is coming up July 22 to the 24th. I’m talking specifically with winemaker Brian Schmidt. I’ll share a short clip with you now to whet your appetite.

Brian Schmidt 28:16
You see people’s palates are changing. We’re eating lighter foods. So the natural evolution would be that the wine styles paired with people’s diets. So fresher, crisper, brighter, fresher styles of wine certainly are becoming consumer hit. Cool climate really does express those particular attributes quite well.

Natalie MacLean 28:32
I often taste a lot of wines monthly to review them. And the ones that start to stand out are the big ones. But then you get home and it’s almost like meeting someone at a bar who’s shouting at you. And that’s fine because it’s in the context of the bar but at home at a dinner party that guy is way too loud or gal I should say. I think that’s the wine style too. It’s more subtle. It’s more conducive to conversation. It’s imbalanced and in harmony.

Brian Schmidt 28:56
That a great analogy.

Unknown Speaker 28:57
Yeah, not go to bars anymore.

Natalie MacLean 29:03
If you liked this episode, please tell one friend about it this week, especially someone you know who’d be interested in the wines and stories we discussed. Thank you for taking the time to join me here. I hope something great is in your glass this week. Perhaps a cool climate Riesling or Chardonnay?

Natalie MacLean 29:27
You don’t want to miss one juicy episode of this podcast, especially the secret full body bonus episodes that I don’t announce on social media. So subscribe for free now at Meet me here next week. Cheers.