Start a Bordeaux Winery and Make The Midlife Move with Sally Evans

Natalie MacLean
Apr9th

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Introduction

What’s one of the most challenging aspects of being a new winemaker in Bordeaux, especially if you’re a middle-aged foreigner who is making wine for the first time? How did the Bordeaux sub-region of Fronsac lose its fame after being a region favoured by French royalty? What if the only thing holding you back from a fresh start, a new project or a major life change is you?

In this episode of the Unreserved Wine Talk podcast, I’m chatting with Sally Evans, author of the new memoir, Make The Midlife Move: A Practical Guide to Flourish after Fifty.

You can find the wines we discussed here.

 

Giveaway

Three of you are going to win a copy of her terrific new memoir, Make The Midlife Move: A Practical Guide to Flourish after Fifty.

 

How to Win

To qualify, all you have to do is email me at [email protected] and let me know that you’ve posted a review of the podcast.

It takes less than 30 seconds: On your phone, scroll to the bottom here, where the reviews are, and click on “Tap to Rate.”

After that, scroll down a tiny bit more and click on “Write a Review.” That’s it!

I’ll choose three people randomly from those who contact me.

Good luck!

 

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Join the live-stream video of this conversation on Wednesday at 7 pm eastern on Instagram Live Video, Facebook Live Video or YouTube Live Video.

I’ll be jumping into the comments as we watch it together so that I can answer your questions in real-time.

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Highlights

  • Which pivotal moment sparked Sally’s interest in learning more about wine?
  • What was Sally’s career before wine?
  • Why did she decide to transition into a wine career at 52?
  • How is Make The Midlife Move different from other books of the genre?
  • What was the most surprising insight Sally discovered while writing her book?
  • What was the most challenging part of writing Make The Midlife Move?
  • Where is Bordeaux, and specifically Fronsac, geographically located?
  • Why has Fronsac often been overlooked in favour of more well-known regions?
  • What made Sally choose Fronsac when deciding to start winemaking?
  • What’s the story behind Sally’s winery’s name, Château George 7?
  • How did Sally overcome the issue of magnum bottles with no capsules to fit?
  • What was Sally’s most humbling moment in her winemaking career?
  • Which unexpected challenges does Sally wish someone had warned her about in the early days?
  • Why did Sally decide to expand into making white wine?
  • What can you do to manage feelings of impostor syndrome?
  • What has it been like as a British woman navigating the traditionally male-dominated Bordeaux wine world?

 

Key Takeaways

  • What’s one of the most challenging aspects of being a new winemaker in Bordeaux, especially if you’re a middle-aged foreigner who is making wine for the first time?
    • Sally notes that she didn’t realize just how much bureaucracy there was in France with the customs system and appellation rules around winemaking. You need to know exactly what goes into the wine and you know you can’t treat the vines so many days before you pick. There’s a lot of rules which are good, but, there were so many rules. She also didn’t really think through how long it takes to make a wine. It takes two years before it goes into the bottle, and then it’s not really ready to drink for another year or so. So it’s quite a long time that you’re financing everything before you can actually start earning money.
  • How did the Bordeaux sub-region of Fronsac lose its fame after being a region favoured by French royalty?
    • Sally observes that Fronsac has an interesting history. It had the first wines that were produced and went up to the Royal Court of Versailles, to the French royalty, mainly thanks to the fact that the Cardinal Richelieu was also the Duke of Fronsac. Charlemagne had a folly here. So that was great. But then as time went by, an area like Saint-Émilion, which became a UNESCO World Heritage Site, overtook Fronsac in terms of notoriety. We have very similar soil, and I think that Fronsac fell behind in that time. When climate was a little bit cooler as well, some of the wines tended to be a little bit more rustic, maybe not quite as ripe or as elegant as they could be.
  • What if the only thing holding you back from a fresh start, a new project or a major life change is you?
    • Sally was surprised that anyone can embark on a major new chapter if they have the passion for it. When people visited the winery, she told them a little bit of her story, they would say to her, “You should write a book.” To which she responded, “I would love to do that, but I could never do it. I’m a normal woman with a normal background, I didn’t have tons and tons of money, and I now I really feel passionate that normal women can really make a big midlife change.”

 

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I feel passionate that normal women can make a big midlife change. - Sally Evans Sally Evans Click to tweet

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Most wine farmers are really looking after the land and want to leave it better than they found it. - Sally Evans Sally Evans Click to tweet

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When you’re making red wine, it’s quite a long time that you’re financing everything before you can actually start getting money in. - Sally Evans Sally Evans Click to tweet

 

About Sally Evans

After an international corporate career based in Paris and the South of France, Sally Evans completely changed her life in her fifties. She created an independent winery in Bordeaux, completely on her own with no prior experience or knowledge of wine. She threw herself into wine studies, bought a parcel of mature vines with some dilapidated buildings and created a brand-new wine chateau. She now has a boutique winery, Château George 7, in Fronsac on the right bank of Bordeaux. Her wines win high critical acclaim from leading wine critics and publications and are listed in Michelin-starred restaurants and top venues across Europe and the US. Sally has also created a wine tourism destination for tastings and events, winning accolades for its exceptional wine experience. Alongside wine, her other passion is supporting women to follow their dreams.

Her international best-seller ‘Make the Midlife Move: A Practical Guide to Flourish after 50’ is an essential read for any woman approaching or in midlife who dreams of making a major life change. Sally provides a step-by-step guide, drawing from her own experience and offering invaluable insights and real-life examples. It is packed with practical advice and serves as a comprehensive framework to support any midlife transformation.

 

Resources

 

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  • Sign up for my free online wine video class where I’ll walk you through The 5 Wine & Food Pairing Mistakes That Can Ruin Your Dinner (and how to fix them forever!)
  • You’ll find my books here, including Unquenchable: A Tipsy Quest for the World’s Best Bargain Wines and Red, White and Drunk All Over: A Wine-Soaked Journey from Grape to Glass.
  • The new audio edition of Red, White and Drunk All Over: A Wine-Soaked Journey from Grape to Glass is now available on Amazon.ca, Amazon.com and other country-specific Amazon sites; iTunes.ca, iTunes.com and other country-specific iTunes sites; Audible.ca and Audible.com.

 

Transcript

Natalie MacLean 00:00:00 What’s one of the most challenging aspects of being a new winemaker in Bordeaux, especially if you’re a middle aged foreigner who is making wine for the first time? How did the Bordeaux subregion of France lose its fame after being the region favored by French royalty? And what if the only thing holding you back from a fresh start, a new project or a major life change is you? Well, in today’s episode, you’ll hear the stories and tips that answer those questions in our chat with Sally Evans, author of the new memoir Make the Midlife Move A Practical Guide to Flourish After 50. And it’s all about her story of starting a winery in the middle of Bordeaux. By the end of our conversation, you’ll discover the pivotal moment that sparked Sally’s interest in learning more about wine. Why Sally decided to make the transition into a wine career at age 52. How make the midlife move is different from other books in the genre. The most surprising insight Sally discovered while writing her book. The most challenging part of writing it, where Bordo and specifically Fran Sach are geographically located, and how the styles of wine there differ from other subregions in Bordeaux.

Natalie MacLean 00:01:19 And what made Sally choose France when deciding to start winemaking. The story behind Sally’s winery name Chateau George seven. How Sally overcame the issue of Magnum bottles with no capsules that would fit them. Why Sally decided to expand into making white wine. How to manage feelings of imposter syndrome. Yes, please. What it’s like to be a British woman navigating a traditionally male dominated Bordeaux wine world, and what it means to feel responsible for the land that you’re working as a winemaker. Do you have a thirst to learn about wine? Do you love stories about wonderfully obsessive people, hauntingly beautiful places, and amusingly awkward social situations? Well, that’s the blend here on the Unreserved Wine Talk podcast. I’m your host, Natalie MacLean, and each week I share with you unfiltered conversations with celebrities in the wine world, as well as confessions from my own tipsy journey as I write my third book on this subject. I’m so glad you’re here. Now pass me that bottle, please, and let’s get started. Welcome to episode 332.

Natalie MacLean 00:02:47 Last week I was chatting about Canadian wines and whiskeys on CTV’s Things to Know to Show. I’ll share my conversation and recommendations with you now. Here we go. American wines and spirits are off the liquor store shelves due to the ongoing U.S. trade disputes. So what do you do if you’re missing your favorite California Cabernet or Kentucky bourbon? Our next guest has you covered. Joining us today is Natalie MacLean, who offers Canada’s most popular wine review site at Natalie MacLean. Com. Hey, it’s great to be back with you, Nicole. I’m excited to share with you some Team Canada picks for Red, white and booze. Not only is the quality of these drinks superb, but the industry also injects 20 billion into our economy every year and generates 85,000 jobs. Every bottle of 100% Canadian wine or spirits generates $100 in economic value and spinoff jobs, versus only $16 for an import. So when we drink Canadian, we’re literally toasting to our own economy with the perfect blend of pleasure and patriotism. Can you tell I love alliteration anyway? If you love California Chardonnay.

Natalie MacLean 00:03:59 Try the organic on seven Chardonnay from Niagara on the Lake. The winery produces super premium Chardonnay and Pinot Noir only. And with their Chardonnay, there’s just two. The pursuit and devotion, which I love the obsessive nature of these folks, and they only make 250 cases a year, so they sell directly from the winery and online only. We’ll put the links in the show notes for all of these wines and whiskeys. This elegant white wine offers aromas of ripe golden apple, toasty vanilla and a hint of fresh baked brioche. The palate is rich and yet balanced with a creamy texture and vibrant acidity. Much like Canadian diplomacy, this wine manages to be both assertive and polite at the same time. I’d pair it with a caramelized onion and aged cheddar tart with a flaky, buttery pastry melts in your mouth, while the sweet onions and sharp cheese zing across your palate. If Oregon Pinot gris is more your thing, try the Liebling Sauvignon Blanc from Four Mile Creek in Niagara. This aromatic white wine bursts with gooseberry, grapefruit and fresh cut grass aromas on the palate.

Natalie MacLean 00:05:13 It’s zippy and clean, with mouthwatering acidity and a lingering finish of citrus and herbs. I pair this with a lemon grilled salmon. Its crispy skin giving way to tender pink flesh alongside a fennel and citrus salad tossed in a honey lime vinaigrette. The Sauvignon blanc crispness lifts the dish beautifully. Now, if you enjoy Washington Riesling, try a Riesling from Hare Winery in Niagara on the Lake. This beautifully balanced Riesling offers vibrant notes of green apple, white peach and lime zest with a distinctive mineral backbone on the palate. It’s crisp, with a touch of honey that finishes refreshingly dry. I’d pair this with sizzling shrimp tacos drizzled in zesty lime crema, nestled in warm corn tortillas with a crunchy cabbage slaw. The rieslings crisp acidity balances the spice, while its subtle sweetness enhances the charred seafood. Now let’s move on to some reds, shall we? If you love a full bodied California Cabernet, try Big Head wines from Niagara on the Lake. Their Cabernet Sauvignon Select offers impressive depth and structure, delivering concentrated black cherry, blackberry and mocha notes with hints of cedar and spice.

Natalie MacLean 00:06:35 The tannins are firm yet smooth, giving it an excellent aging potential. This wine doesn’t need a passport to prove its identity. It has all the confidence of a world traveler who still remembers exactly where home is. I pair this with slow braised short ribs where the meat falls off the bone after hours of gentle cooking in a rich source of red wine. Root vegetables and fresh herbs. The gamey sweetness of the bison complementing the wine’s robust character. Now, if you’re into Pinot noir from Oregon, try broken stone Gamay Noir from Prince Edward County. This elegant red shows bright cherry, cranberry and violet aromas with a hint of white pepper. Light bodied yet flavorful with silky tannins and a refreshing finish. I pair this wine with roasted duck breast in a sour cherry compote. The tart sweet sauce that mirrors the wine’s fruity character. The crispy, golden skin crackles as you cut through the succulent meat served with rosemary roasted baby potatoes. And if you enjoy Washington Merlot, try near Cellars Cadence, a terrific blend of Merlot, Cab Franc and Cabernet Sauvignon from the Niagara Peninsula.

Natalie MacLean 00:07:51 This sophisticated blend offers aromas of plum, blackcurrant and dried herbs with subtle tobacco notes. Medium to full bodied with velvety tannins and a long, elegant finish. I’d pair this with a wild mushroom and truffle risotto, where the creamy rice is slowly stirred to perfection with earthy, wild mushrooms and finished with a drizzle of truffle oil. Creating a luxurious dish that complements the wine’s complex character. Let’s mosey on over to spirit, shall we? If you’re missing your Kentucky bourbon. In 1972, the 40 Creek Distillery opened in Niagara and more recently was named Whiskey Maker of the decade at the Canadian Whiskey Awards. Their 40 Creek copper bowl has intense toffee aromas like bourbon but with spicy rye notes. It’s a blend of aged whiskies made from corn, rye and barley that then undergoes intensive oak aging for extra depth and richness. On the palate, you’ll find vanilla, caramel, toasted nuts, and warming spices with a smooth, lingering finish. This whisky embodies the Canadian spirit so perfectly I wouldn’t be surprised if it apologized for being so darn delicious.

Natalie MacLean 00:09:07 I’d pair this with maple bacon butter tarts with a flaky pastry cradles a gooey maple filling studded with crispy bacon bits, creating a sweet and savory Canadian twist on a classic dessert. The Dunn Robin Distillery near Ottawa makes Beaver’s dram sherry wood finish. They also have a rye whiskey with a port finish and a soon to be released bourbon style corn based whiskey. But seriously, could there be anything more Canadian in a name than beavers? Dram on the palate. Caramel wraps around orange scented almonds as this whisky is finished in cherrywood casks, just as some Bourbons are. The perfect pairing would of course, be beaver tales, and I do mean the pastry, not the critter, because the latter would be just mean. Specifically, I’d go with the classic cinnamon sugar beaver tail, where the hand stretched fried dough is crispy on the outside, pillowy inside, and dusted generally with cinnamon sugar that melts slightly from the pastries warmth. And finally, for the grand finale, we have Canada’s number one Whiskey Crown Royal Fine Deluxe that was created in 1939 to commemorate the Canadian visit of King George the Sixth and Queen Elizabeth, with the bottle given to them as a gift in a purple velvet bag to represent royalty.

Natalie MacLean 00:10:35 You know, the ermine capes they wear are used to. I mean, this is living generously, isn’t it? This premium whisky is made on the shores of Lake Winnipeg and is aged in white oak barrels, giving it a nose of creamy vanilla, oak, baking spices and butterscotch. The silky smoothness of Crown Royal Fine Deluxe makes it the perfect whisky for any classic cocktail, like the Old Fashioned or Whiskey Sour. You can also enjoy it neat or on the rocks. I’d pair it with maple glazed pork tenderloin with a juicy meat, is roasted to perfection, and then brushed with a reduction of maple syrup, mustard and rosemary, creating a caramelized exterior that complements the whiskey smooth character. So when you’re shopping, ask for more Canada. And let’s raise our glass to our country, where our wines run as deep as our lakes and our spirits are as bold as our mountains. I really want to sing a rousing rendition of O Canada at this point, but I. I suppose I’ll continue. All right, links to the video of this segment, as well as the wines and whiskies are in the show notes at Natalie MacLean 333.

Natalie MacLean 00:11:46 You can order all of them online as well. I’m always looking for your suggestions for upcoming segments on Citi TV’s breakfast television, CTV Morning Live, The Social Global’s Morning show, and each morning live about drinks for spring, Easter, Earth Day. Mother’s day, father’s day, barbecue Canada day. So if you have wine, spirits, beer, cocktail, mixed drinks to suggest whether they’re alcoholic or not, please let me know. Meanwhile, I’m reviewing my favorite drinks on Instagram at Natalie MacLean wine. Connect with me there. Back to today’s guest. Three of you are going to win a copy of Sally Evans inspiring, witty new memoir, Make the Midlife Move A Practical Guide to Flourish After 50. I’m pleased to announce a winner of Rosemary George’s beautiful book, The Wines of Languedoc with full color photos and maps. And that is drumroll. Jon Newberger from Boston, Massachusetts. I still have one more copy to give away. Along with one copy of Adam Rogers terrific book, Full Spectrum How the Science of Color Made Us Modern, and two copies of Fiona morrisons Ten Great Wine Families a tour through Europe, which also has full color photos and maps.

Natalie MacLean 00:13:06 So whether you want these books for yourself or maybe to give us a gift, let me know. All you have to do is email me and let me know you’d like to win. It doesn’t matter where you live. I’ll choose seven winners randomly from those who contact me at Natalie at Natalie MacLean. Com. In other bookish news, if you’re reading the paperback or e-book or listening to the audiobook of my memoir wine, which on fire rising from the ashes of divorce, defamation and drinking Too much. A national bestseller and one of Amazon’s best books of the year. I’d love to hear from you at Natalie at Natalie MacLean. Com. I’d be happy to send you a beautifully designed, personally signed book. Plates for the copies you buy or give as gifts. I’ll put a link in the show notes to all retailers worldwide. At Natalie MacLean 333. The paperback usually arrives within a day or two of ordering. The e-book and audiobook are instantly available. Okey dokey on with the show. After an international corporate career in Paris and in the south of France, Sally Evans changed her life completely in her 50s.

Natalie MacLean 00:14:18 She founded her own winery in Bordeaux with no prior experience of wine. Her wines have garnered high scores and critical acclaim from leading wine critics, and have been featured in Michelin starred restaurants across Europe. Her international bestselling memoir, Make the Midlife Move A Practical Guide to Flourishing after 50 is an essential read for anyone who dreams of making a major life change. Sally provides a practical, step by step guide, drawing from her own experience and offering valuable insights and real life examples. And she joins us now from her home in Bordeaux. Welcome, Sally. So great to have you here with us.

Sally Evans 00:14:59 Oh, thank you for having me. It’s a delight. Thank you.

Natalie MacLean 00:15:02 All right. So in your wonderful memoir, you write that studying wine was something that you’d always meant to do, but you never had time for. So what was your first epiphany or moment? What was that wine that kind of turned you on to wine and made you want to learn more about it?

Sally Evans 00:15:19 Well, growing up in the UK in the 60s and 70s and into the 80s, wine was not really part of the culture at that time on the tables in my family.

Sally Evans 00:15:30 So when I had finished my studies in London, I went to live in Spain for a couple of years. And so they’re in my very early 20s. I tasted Rioja and I tasted white rioja as well as red rioja. And that really as part of the experience of living in Spain as a young woman and discovering that culture was just the most wonderful experience. So that was the start of thinking, wow, there’s something special in wine. And at some point I’m going to need to learn a bit more about it.

Natalie MacLean 00:16:05 Where were you when you tasted that wine?

Sally Evans 00:16:07 I was in Madrid.

Natalie MacLean 00:16:08 Oh, you were in Madrid? And were you having dinner or something?

Sally Evans 00:16:12 Yes. So I studied French and German at university. And so as I finished university, I thought maybe if I’m going to be a linguist, I ought to learn Spanish. So I’m going to go to Spain. So without knowing anybody, I managed to find a job teaching English in Madrid. And I set off. It was before obviously mobile phones.

Sally Evans 00:16:29 My mum and dad waved me off, not knowing where I was going or how I was going to live. And I arrived in Madrid and on my first night there I booked myself into a hostel and as I was phoning my mum on the payphone to say I’ve arrived, everything’s okay. A group of students and young people who were staying in the hostel saw me and saw me as the new English girl who just arrived and they said, we’re going out for dinner, would you like to come? And so off we went. And so it was my very first night in Madrid. And one of them, who knew quite a lot about wine, ordered the Rioja and gave me my first taste. So that was it. My first night in Spain.

Natalie MacLean 00:17:09 Magical night.

Sally Evans 00:17:11 Yeah, it was very special.

Natalie MacLean 00:17:13 So you were teaching there? You’d learn the languages. But tell us a bit about your previous career before you started and decided to make wine. And what made you make that jump into winemaking at age 52?

Sally Evans 00:17:26 Okay, so after my Spanish adventure moved back to the UK and with my then partner we owned ran a Cotswold country in so a very typical English in with a restaurant and a bar and some letting rooms.

Sally Evans 00:17:41 And that was a great experience and then went on a few years later to move to Paris. So I moved to Paris with my partner. I had a very small child and so moved to France, thought it would be wonderful for him to grow up bicultural as well as bilingual. And so started my love affair with France. And while in Paris, I lived in Paris for nearly ten years. I started working for a big consulting company in the marketing team, and I spent nearly two decades at that consulting company as a marketing director. And so I traveled the world a lot. I had a fantastic job, and I actually spent a lot of time away from my family because I work long hours. That was the deal. So I had another son during that time. And so by the time my younger son was around 14. I really came to the conclusion. Look, I haven’t really seen him grow up. I went back to work when he was very small. That was my choice and decided that as he was entering sort of middle teens and he would soon be leaving for university, I really wanted to spend some time with him before he left home.

Sally Evans 00:18:50 Call it mum guilt. I think a lot of women can perhaps identify with that. And then, as he was then getting ready to leave for university 2 or 3 years later. So in the meantime, it’s been I’d been a great taxi driver for him to and from rugby. I’ve made all his favourite meals. I’d kept an eye on him, I’d renovated a house and then as he was preparing to leave for university and at the same time, my mum had lost a lot of autonomy and she’d gone into a care home. I suddenly thought, okay, I’m going to be an empty nester. What am I going to do with my time? What is my project going to be? And that’s when I really realized I can choose whatever I want to do, because both my sons at this point will have left home. My eldest son had left previously to go off to live his life. And so now what do I really want to do? And that’s when I started thinking. I’m not sure, but I’m going to start by doing those wine studies, and I’m going to engage my brain and I’m going to enjoy it, and I’m going to take my time and I’m going to drink some good wine while I do it.

Sally Evans 00:19:55 And that was the beginning.

Natalie MacLean 00:19:57 That was the beginning. And so then what made you jump to. Well, I’m going to buy a winery or I’m going to start a winery from there.

Sally Evans 00:20:06 That is the bit of the mad move, isn’t it really? So. So as I got bitten by the bug, I had several times during my life being in hospitality. As I mentioned, I had a country in, I also had renovated several properties and I started looking like I mentioned in the book, I started looking at lots of threads in my life that I kept coming back to. Renovating. Having a vision for how something could be. Creating something new. Contact with people in a sociable atmosphere. And then, of course, these wine studies. And of course also food. I absolutely love cooking. Food receiving people. So as I started thinking about wine, I thought, you know, that could be a project. I could look at maybe getting a rundown property, renovating it and creating wine, and then, you know, that goes with the food and the love of food.

Sally Evans 00:21:02 So I simply said to myself, so at this point, I was living near nice in the south east of France. So just a tucked in the southeast corner near to Monaco, right the other side near Italy. And I said to myself, where do they make good wine? Well, of course, Bordeaux came to mind. I had never visited Bordeaux, and I thought this could be a great opportunity to explore another part of France. So I packed my dog into the car, and I drove eight hours to the other side of Bordeaux, and I bought a lot of vines.

Natalie MacLean 00:21:36 I got just like that on a Sunday.

Sally Evans 00:21:39 That’s what you do?

Natalie MacLean 00:21:41 Yes. It’s what you do. Sally, I’m not sure everybody does that, but we’re going to get into the details of that. But maybe in a nutshell, how is your book, your memoir different, say, from other books that might be similar, like Peter Mails A Year in Provence, which comes to mind?

Sally Evans 00:21:57 The book is really meant to be a very practical guide.

Sally Evans 00:22:01 So it’s not describing my wine journey per se. What it is, is really walking the reader through the steps from thinking, as I did when I started my wine studies. What do I want to do next? How do I want to change my life? What are the things that are calling me through? Banishing those fears of oh my gosh, I can’t do it. And through the various steps you need to actually make the change. So it’s not about my life, but at the end of each chapter, I put in the prompts of what I did and my experience in that situation. So you do get a little bit of my story, but it’s really to help someone else in a practical way.

Natalie MacLean 00:22:44 Okay, great. And what was the most surprising insight you discovered while writing the book?

Sally Evans 00:22:49 You know, I have been surprised about how passionate I am that anyone can embark on a major new chapter. It all started when people were coming to visit, and I was receiving them here in the winery, and I was telling them a little bit of the story and people were saying to me, you should write a book.

Sally Evans 00:23:07 Oh, I would love to do that, but I could never do it. And I would spend the rest of the visit trying to make them believe that they could. And I think you can probably tell in my voice, I’m a normal woman. I did this on my own. I didn’t have a man helping me or taking the lead. And I’m a normal woman with a normal background, and I didn’t have tons and tons of money. And I really feel passionate that normal women can really make a big mid-life change.

Natalie MacLean 00:23:34 Wow. And what’s the most interesting thing that someone has said about your book since it’s been published?

Sally Evans 00:23:39 Oh, well, I’ve had lots of compliments, obviously. I think the nicest thing, perhaps, is that people say that reading the book is as though I am standing there in the kitchen just chatting to them. I want someone to feel that I’m there as a friend. But look, I’ve done this. Maybe you could try that rather than some kind of authority. And I think that’s a nice thing to feel that people feel that great.

Natalie MacLean 00:24:06 Absolutely. That’s the connection. And feeling like you’re not alone. What was the most difficult part of writing the book?

Sally Evans 00:24:13 Probably finding a title I think is very hard because I think when you’re doing a book, you are so in it. You know exactly what the book is about. So actually trying to translate that into a title that will mean something. And I had so many titles, I’m not even sure I came up with the exact title. That took me a long time. It took me almost as long as writing the book.

Natalie MacLean 00:24:36 Yeah, well, it’s a title that suits the book for sure. It does explain without being overly explanatory. Let’s go back to where you started, because we have a range of listeners on the podcast, from complete beginners to wine to quite knowledgeable folks. Draw some mental map where Bordeaux is in France, and then where your region is France and where that sits.

Sally Evans 00:24:59 Okay, so Bordeaux is in the southwest of France. When you look at France, it’s like a big hexagon, and you’ve got the United Kingdom to the north and you’ve got Spain sort of down to the southwest.

Sally Evans 00:25:11 Well, Bordeaux is in the southwest, on the Atlantic coast, so heading down towards Spain. And if you’ve got Paris in the center. It’s about two hours by fast train down to Bordeaux. So it is on the southwest coast, about two thirds down. On the way down to Spain. Now a Bordeaux as a winemaking region is huge. So about 100,000 hectares. Now a hectare is about two and a half acres. So it’s a very big region. It’s the biggest wine region. Certainly in one piece. I believe in Europe.

Natalie MacLean 00:25:47 It’s bigger than the Languedoc.

Sally Evans 00:25:49 I believe so, yes. And certainly in terms of production, we’re talking production of nearly 600 million bottles a year. That’s huge. It’s a big production. People are probably aware that, you know, we have an appellation system, the AOC, that you find often on a bottle, which defines the geographic area. And there are 65 of them within Bordeaux. So it’s a huge area. And because you have this very deep estuary coming down into the city of Bordeaux, which is obviously the way that the ships navigate to bring it in.

Sally Evans 00:26:22 It’s a major port, and you have the two rivers. You have the Garonne. Which goes down south, and then you have the Dordogne, which goes out towards the east. The Dordogne rivers. It was a you know, it always has been a major port because clearly it was the first port on the west coast of the country, with all the ships coming in from the Americas. A lot of the Appalachians in Bordeaux are classified as left bank or right bank, which is left of the, you know, west of the estuary or to the right, to the east of the estuary and so on the right bank. I think one of the most well-known appellations is probably Santa Mellion that most people will have heard of. And on the right bank you’ve got Santa Emilion, Pomeroy and France, who are grouped together by the Bordeaux Wine Council as a trio of appellations. And I am in the lesser known one of France. So ten 15 minutes from Santa million to the east of Bordeaux on the right bank.

Natalie MacLean 00:27:24 And how much wine does France produce? Like, how big is it in terms of volume?

Sally Evans 00:27:29 Probably about 1% of the Bordeaux production.

Natalie MacLean 00:27:32 So very small.

Sally Evans 00:27:34 Very small. Yes.

Natalie MacLean 00:27:35 And that might be why it’s often overlooked compared to more famous appellations.

Sally Evans 00:27:41 Yes. I think because France has an interesting history in that it was very well known in the past in that it had the first wines that were produced, went up to the royal court of Versailles, to the French royalty, which was fantastic, mainly thanks to the fact that Richelieu, the Cardinal Richelieu, was also the Duke of France. Also in history, Charlemagne had a folly here, so that was great. But then as time went by, an area like Santa Emilion, which became a Unesco World Heritage Site really overtook France in terms of notoriety. We have very similar soil and I think that France fell behind at that time, and also the wines when climate was a little bit cooler as well. Some of the wines tended to be a little bit more rustic, maybe not quite as ripe or as elegant as they could be.

Sally Evans 00:28:37 And so it kind of fell behind in terms of notoriety.

Natalie MacLean 00:28:42 Right. And what made you choose that region where you bought your property?

Sally Evans 00:28:47 Because I wanted to be on the right bank. I love right bank wines, which are Merlot driven. I love that I wanted to be near to the city so that I could have a life and get into Bordeaux in about 40 minutes. And there are some appellations which are much further away, and would mean I would have been much more isolated, as I didn’t know anybody here. So I wanted to be near to the city. But also France represented at the time a really good quality terroir Off a soil. As you know, the French love talking about terroir for the money. And I couldn’t, frankly, afford Pomeroy or Saint Emilion, so I went for a really good value appellation, but with great potential and great soil.

Natalie MacLean 00:29:28 A real fixer upper. I guess.

Sally Evans 00:29:31 That’s it. Exactly.

Natalie MacLean 00:29:33 Because you purchase very modest property with rundown buildings when you started. Do you think that was actually beneficial to your journey, that you had to start with those constraints, or what’s your take on that now?

Sally Evans 00:29:44 I think financially it’s been fantastic.

Sally Evans 00:29:48 Contrary to what you might think, I’m very, very bad with risk. I really do not like anything that has high risk. That doesn’t work. I know it doesn’t sound like that.

Natalie MacLean 00:29:57 For someone who’s risk averse.

Sally Evans 00:29:59 So from my perspective, what I did was I bought a plot of mature vines, 35 years old at the time, so beautifully mature vines. They belonged to another chateau who was trying to sell off some land and then some dilapidated buildings, and the fact that I could add value to the house. So I bought a worker’s cottage that had workers in for a long time. So it was very rundown. I tracked a barn which basically just housed materials. It had no door on it. It was just a big barn with a big open doorway, and then an empty winery building that had no equipment in it. So it was empty, had never been used to make wine. So the fact that I could add value by renovating the house was really important to me, because I had in my mind, look, if this doesn’t work out, you renovate the house, you continue your wine studies.

Sally Evans 00:30:49 You love being in Bordeaux for a short while, but you can always sell it and get your money back from renovation that you’ve done in the house. So that was a really important factor when I bought it. Yes.

Natalie MacLean 00:31:00 Well. And now Chateau George Severn, the name of your winery is an unusual name for a French vineyard. What’s the story behind that? And how did the locals react to that?

Sally Evans 00:31:11 Well, yes. So in French it’s chateau set. So number seven and in English Chateau George seven or George set. It is an unusual name. So I had my marketing hat on. I wanted a name where I could get the.com, a URL, which we know is very important these days. So I wanted to be sure to be able to get the.com. And I also wanted something that reflected what I do here. So as I sat down with my piece of paper and looked at my really dilapidated, uninspiring buildings, but I looked at the most beautiful view and the wonderful old gnarly vines.

Sally Evans 00:31:49 I thought, okay, what I’m going to do here is a combination of old and new. So George represents an old traditional name. It works well in English and French. George, George and seven, written that way rather than Roman numerals, is more modern. It’s more forward looking. And the next King George of England will be Georgia seventh. So it has a little nod to my. British origin. But also when I lived in Paris, I worked in The Avengers sank. And so the George sank. George set. I felt was a nice little combination, bringing it all together.

Natalie MacLean 00:32:26 You really do think about titles? Wow. If I write another book again, could you consult, please? That’s great, I love it.

Sally Evans 00:32:35 Yeah.

Natalie MacLean 00:32:35 So you also write about making a lot of rookie mistakes. Maybe you can give us some examples of those.

Sally Evans 00:32:41 Oh, thank you for bringing that up.

Sally Evans 00:32:44 I’ve.

Sally Evans 00:32:46 Yes, I’ve made a few. I’ve made quite a few. One of the early mistakes was when I bottled my first wine.

Sally Evans 00:32:53 We had ordered some magnums, so I wanted to use bottles and magnums as well as half bottles and bottles. And you buy the capsules to go on to the top of the bottle like this, like you have on the top of the bottle. Little did I know that around the outside of the Magnum there was a band of glass, which meant the capsule wouldn’t fit. So I went running around all over the countryside trying to find capsules, and I don’t know who else buys those Magnum bottles, but the capsules don’t fit them. So I ended up having to wax my magnums, put wax around the top because I can’t find capsules that fit. And when I was told, okay, well, you just get a pan and you just put it in a gas burner and you just start dipping in the wax. And I was like, oh my goodness, I can’t keep the wax, the constant temperature. So I went on Amazon and I bought a leg waxing machine and I, I have fill it with the black wax and it keeps it at a perfect temperature.

Sally Evans 00:33:51 And I can just dip the bottles in and there we go. So, you know, there’s a solution for everything.

Natalie MacLean 00:33:56 I mean this in the best stereotypical way. Only a woman could have come up with that solution.

Sally Evans 00:34:01 Yeah.

Natalie MacLean 00:34:02 Remind me of Miko, who drilled holes in her kitchen table to riddle the bottles of champagne.

Sally Evans 00:34:08 But what an ingenious option.

Natalie MacLean 00:34:10 Oh my goodness.

Sally Evans 00:34:11 Yes. I have to add, I don’t use the same machine to wax my legs. I just to say.

Sally Evans 00:34:17 Oh, I see, that’s good. You keep them different.

Sally Evans 00:34:19 Just to be sure.

Natalie MacLean 00:34:22 Well, it’s been your most humbling moment, especially in the early days of being a winemaker.

Sally Evans 00:34:27 I think the realization of just how much people around here love the land, care for the land, the responsibility to look after the soil and the land. I think that when you get into large scale farming, we see big farming. But actually, most wine farmers are really looking after the land and just wanting to leave it better than they found it.

Sally Evans 00:34:58 And that is really humbling because it’s all kind of bigger than us. And I was a bit blasé about that, I think when I got here, and then you start feeling it as well. Like, those vines are like, I feel very responsible for them and that’s very humbling.

Natalie MacLean 00:35:14 What was the most unexpected challenge you faced in those early days? Something that you wish someone had warned you about other than the capsules for the Magnum bottles?

Sally Evans 00:35:24 Yes. I think a few things, really. I was already well informed about French bureaucracy because I already lived in France, so I knew that there was a lot of bureaucracy in France. But I don’t think I realized just how much the customs system and the appellation rules and all the bureaucracy there is around winemaking, how much? That would be a next level. Now, don’t get me wrong, all the rules about the Appalachian and so forth is really good because it means we’re very strict around what we can and can’t do, which means you know exactly what goes into the wine, and you can’t treat the vines so many days before you pick.

Sally Evans 00:36:02 So there’s a lot of rules which are good, but my goodness, there was a lot of rules to look at. And also I think and this is a little bit of a rookie mistake, but also I kind of didn’t really think through how long it takes to make a wine. It takes two years before it goes into bottle. The way we make it here. So we pick it, it goes into bottle. You’ve looked after those vines for a year before that, before you pick it, then it goes into bottle, then two years later, and then it’s not really ready to drink for another year or so. So it’s quite a long time that you’re financing everything before you can actually start getting money in. And I think I probably could have done with someone to say, start with white wine. It’s a much quicker turnaround for cash. But nobody.

Sally Evans 00:36:46 Did start with.

Natalie MacLean 00:36:46 White wines because they’re ready earlier. They don’t need the oak aging.

Sally Evans 00:36:49 That’s right. Exactly, exactly.

Natalie MacLean 00:36:53 Because you did start with reds, right?

Sally Evans 00:36:55 Yes, absolutely.

Sally Evans 00:36:56 That’s right.

Sally Evans 00:36:57 Yes.

Natalie MacLean 00:36:58 Okay. And then what made you get into whites? eventually.

Sally Evans 00:37:02 I renovated a tasting room. I renovated the famous equipment barn in 2020. It was a great year to renovate a barn for tasting room, as we didn’t know in January what was going to hit us in March in 2020. But I started the renovation in January, and I realized that if I’m going to do wine tourism well and I’m going to have people here, they’re not all going to want to be tasting or drinking, just a big red wine. They’ll want a white wine. And so I decided to rent a parcel of vines for my neighbor to make the white wine from that point.

Natalie MacLean 00:37:34 So you rented first to mitigate the risk. Did you eventually buy that land or.

Sally Evans 00:37:40 You know, I still rent that from a neighbor. Same parcel every year, and we have the same technical team that oversees it, and I can see it from my terrace. So I can kind of keep an eye on.

Sally Evans 00:37:51 It, keep an eye on it.

Natalie MacLean 00:37:52 You mentioned that standing on the edge, looking down is the worst place to be, but that if you take the plunge then that will appear. Was there ever a moment that you thought the net wasn’t there?

Sally Evans 00:38:03 well, my initial leap was to make, wine from just a small part of my land. So although I only have three hectares, which is about seven and a half acres, I decided to start with two hectares. And so that was kind of my net I had put in place. But after that, I think it’s really every time I’ve done a big investment. That decision might have taken me a while, but I think once I’ve made the decision, I’ve kind of said, right, you’ve got to go for it. You’ve got to go for it. You’ve made the decision, let’s do it. You’ve been thinking about this long enough. And so, no, I think most times making a big financial decision has always been hard. But I feel that the net has always been there and I’ve made the right decision and I’ve gone for it.

Sally Evans 00:38:48 It’s been half doing something is not worth doing it, is it that way?

Sally Evans 00:38:52 It’s true.

Natalie MacLean 00:38:53 Sliding down the slope, that’s kind of hard. But you also write about the imposter Foster syndrome.

Sally Evans 00:38:58 Which.

Natalie MacLean 00:38:59 Lots of us feel, especially as women. Did you ever feel that and how did you deal with it if you felt that?

Sally Evans 00:39:05 I have, yeah, and I think that is a very female trait. I have felt that, I think. When I made my first full vintage 2018, when I got a 94 points for my first wine at the Decanter World Wine Awards, I started thinking. Is that right? Did they get my wine? It can’t be this easy. So my first wine got that great score, and I also got picked up by an importer in the UK with my first wine. Before I even had it, it was finished. So yes. Lots. And even now I’m much better with it now because I feel I’ve earned my stripes, as it were. But yeah, absolutely.

Sally Evans 00:39:45 Thinking. Hold on a minute. I’m not sure. That’s right. Yeah.

Sally Evans 00:39:50 So.

Natalie MacLean 00:39:50 So what advice do you have for women who feel that imposter syndrome. Is it just fake it til you make it. Or what do you advise women to do?

Sally Evans 00:39:59 When I did get that 94 and I had that feeling, I did actually talk to the people who advised me around making wine to external consultants here in Bordeaux. And I sat down with them saying, you know, I’m not sure, you know, have I earned this? And then we went through what we had done and what I had invested, and they said, do you realize what you have invested in those barrels that actually mean that you can start the complexity of the wine early on, which has added to this wine at a very early age, the terroir, the investment you’re putting into the soil and actually talking them through with them. Then at the end of it, I came out thinking, yeah, why didn’t I get 95?

Natalie MacLean 00:40:40 Yeah.

Natalie MacLean 00:40:40 Good for you. Yeah, but that’s good advice. So you had what I call a kitchen cabinet people, advisors, trusted advisors around you who can help ground you literally. But also if you just look at the facts, like instead of conjuring up stories in your mind about should it this be this way or that way? If you stay with the facts and the work that you’ve done, then you can own, I think those achievements.

Sally Evans 00:41:06 Absolutely. Because actually what we have probably done, we have an emotional response, which is, oh, I don’t know, how can that be that I’ve had such early success. But actually when you look at it, you’ve done all the due diligence, you’ve put all the pieces in place. You do know the staff, you’ve done your research, you’ve unsalted the right people, you’ve invested the right amount, and you kind of think, yeah, you need to give yourself credit that you have actually done that. That’s why you got there. So yeah.

Natalie MacLean 00:41:34 Absolutely.

Natalie MacLean 00:41:35 You also write about the loneliness of your journey, like especially establishing this business in rural France and being an outsider at first. How did you deal with the loneliness?

Sally Evans 00:41:48 So a couple of things. I was used to living on my own, but I had lived in a village before, so I hadn’t lived in the middle of the vines. I mean, I’m literally at my house and my property’s on its own, surrounded by vines. So the good thing was, I was still studying the wheat Diploma in London, so I needed to go back and forth. So I made sure that I made the most of those trips back to London to actually reconnect. Have some city life, you know, probably spend more money than I should have done by enjoying myself, going out, doing all kinds of things. And then actually going back to the vines was a lovely moment of peace, and I could actually really enjoy having some alone time. So that really helped. But also, of course, I am a people person and I do find being on my own here for long periods is the hard part of it, which is why I love traveling and doing wine tastings.

Sally Evans 00:42:47 And so I reached out to local community. I looked at how to volunteer, help the Appalachian get involved. Anybody new in an area? You’ve got to make an effort. And it’s no different for me, moving to a winery as it is, when you go to a new city, you’ve got to make an effort to reach out to people, so I did. And now, you know, I’ve got a great, great community here.

Natalie MacLean 00:43:11 That’s wonderful. And you talk about the importance of a contingency plan. If the wine business hadn’t taken off, what was your plan B?

Sally Evans 00:43:19 Well, my plan B, as I mentioned, I started with a smaller plot because that meant I could buy less equipment, less capital expenditure than for the full three hectares. So that was a start, which meant and it was a very manageable amount according to what I thought. So it was only 9000 bottles the first year and my plan was okay, if this doesn’t work, then I will give that away. I will drink some of it.

Sally Evans 00:43:45 I will give it to everyone for Christmas. I will give it away and then I will rent the vines back to perhaps to the previous owner, or let them have it free of charge so it doesn’t cost me anything. And the tractor barn that I had, I can just turn into a sheet or some bed and breakfast accommodation. So I always had an idea in the back of my mind, if this doesn’t work, I could do that. And that was more as an emotional support, psychological support for me, I think, because doing it on my own, it felt like it was a good idea to have a backup plan. I don’t think there’s anything wrong with that because you just need to make yourself feel strong.

Natalie MacLean 00:44:23 Yeah, you’re not planning to fail, but you have a plan and a backup plan, so that’s very important. So let’s turn to some of the challenges you do. Write about the challenges when you started. Of course, the Bordeaux wine world is steeped in tradition, historically male dominated.

Natalie MacLean 00:44:39 You had to navigate that as a British woman coming to winemaking later in life. Tell us about some of the people who kind of dismissed you at first, maybe they’re starting with the real estate agent. What happened there?

Sally Evans 00:44:51 Well, that wasn’t particularly in Bordeaux, but I’d had that in my previous where I lived. Is that the sexism that you find? Is that if you are visiting a property, then the estate agent tends to address a man if he’s there. And I actually was visiting some properties with a friend of mine who happened to be a male, but I was the one who was buying. I was the one who had the money and the estate agent just completely ignored me. Completely ignored me and only spoke to the man about the plot size and about the energy and the rating and all the various things, and it was just laughable because I was the one who kept asking questions. But the answers were given to the male until my friend turned around and said, well, actually, I don’t know why you’re talking to me because I ain’t got any money.

Sally Evans 00:45:37 She’s the one with the money, so you know, you need to talk to her. But it was automatic that they would talk to the man. But another really funny one was when. Well, it’s not funny. I mean, it happened again two weeks ago. Unfortunately, a lot of lorry drivers tend to be quite macho, and when obviously they know about driving their vehicle. But having had a lot of truck drivers.

Natalie MacLean 00:46:02 Lorry is your British term for truck.

Sally Evans 00:46:03 That’s right. Lorry. Yeah.

Natalie MacLean 00:46:05 Confirming. Yep.

Sally Evans 00:46:07 So obviously now that I have been making wine for a while, I’ve had a lot of trucks come into my property and I know exactly where they can turn the biggest ones. How is best to manoeuvre based on what I’ve learned from peers in their industry. But will they listen to me? Absolutely not. And one of the early, early ones who came in, I was outside weeding or doing something with the pots, and I started telling him, well, if you could move over there and then you could.

Sally Evans 00:46:37 He completely ignored me. He didn’t want to talk to me. And then a young man that I had working in the winery came out with the hose, and he was washing something down, and the driver stopped mid-sentence talking to me and turned to the young man and said, so how am I going to, you know, how do you suggest I back this lorry? And he was just there for the day, helping in the winery. And he’s like, I don’t know, she’s the boss, she’s the owner. And the truck driver just couldn’t get his head around the fact that I might know how he should do it. So I was annoyed.

Natalie MacLean 00:47:04 Well, I assume he’s still stuck outside your house there?

Sally Evans 00:47:07 Yeah. From my most recent escapade, which was just at the beginning of February. I have a big, a big mud hole where he drove his truck in and he couldn’t get out, and he had to get a neighbouring tractor to pull him out because he wouldn’t listen to me.

Natalie MacLean 00:47:20 Right?

Sally Evans 00:47:21 No.

Sally Evans 00:47:21 There we go.

Natalie MacLean 00:47:23 That’s fine. Laws of natural consequences. You won’t forget that one. How about the analyst that you encountered?

Sally Evans 00:47:31 Yes, that was funny. So I bought the property, and over the next couple of years, I wasn’t sure about making wine again. I took everything step by step. I renovated the house. I carried my studies, and the vines were continued to be farmed by the previous owner. I let him have them free of charge to farm, so that way I didn’t incur any costs and I didn’t have to make any quick decisions before I was ready. And so he carried on farming the vines. And just in a couple of years later, when I was starting to think about taking over the vines, an ecologist drove up and he said, oh, I live in the nearby village. I hear that you’re looking at making wine. I can help you. Well, I started explaining what I wanted to do and what I was thinking, and it was clear that he all he could see was Euro science.

Sally Evans 00:48:18 And he actually said to me, can I speak to your husband about the wine? And I said, well, no, I don’t have a husband. And I said to him, I really don’t need your services. I’m not interested. He just he turned around and said, well, I don’t like working with women anyway. You’re far too emotional. And off he went. And so, yeah, no, I thought I saw him coming. So off he went. But yeah.

Natalie MacLean 00:48:39 Oh, he sounds like the emotional one. Well, there you have it. I hope you enjoyed our chat with Sally. Here are my takeaways. Number one, what’s one of the most challenging aspects of being a new winemaker in Bordeaux? Especially if you’re a middle aged foreigner who is making wine for the first time? Well, Sally notes that she didn’t realize just how much bureaucracy there was in France with the customs system and the Appalachian rules around winemaking. As she says, you need to know exactly what goes into the wine and what you can’t treat the vines with so many days before you pick, you know, she acknowledges, there’s a lot of rules which are very good, but there are just so many of them.

Natalie MacLean 00:49:22 She also didn’t really think through how long it takes to make a wine. It’s two years before it goes into the bottle. Then it’s not ready to drink for another year or two. So it’s quite a long time to finance everything, and to have all that inventory tied up before you actually start earning money. Number two. How did the Bordeaux subregion of France lose its fame after being a region favored by French royalty? Sally observes that France has a fascinating history. It had the first wines that were produced and went up to the royal court of Versailles. The French royalty, mainly thanks to the fact that Cardinal Richelieu was also the Duke of Ransack. Charlemagne also had a folly there, so that was great, she says. And then as time went by, though, an area like Saint Emilion, which became a Unesco World Heritage Site, overtook France in terms of fame. They have very similar soil types. But she believes that France fell behind since then, when climate was a little cooler as well.

Natalie MacLean 00:50:28 Some of their wines tended to be a little bit more rustic, shall we say. Maybe not quite as ripe or elegant as they could be. Of course, the wines are improving since then. And number three. What if the only thing holding you back from a fresh start, new project or major life change is you? Sally was surprised that anyone can embark on a major new chapter if they have the passion for it. When people visited the winery, she told them a bit of her story and they would say to her, you should write a book. To which she responded, I would love to do that, but I don’t think I could. I’m a normal woman with a normal background. I didn’t have tons of money, and now I really feel passionate that normal women can make a big mid-life change. And so she wrote a book about it. Go, Sally, go. In the show notes, you’ll find the full transcript of my conversation with Sally. Links to her website, book and wines, the video versions of these conversations on Facebook and YouTube live, and where you can order my book online now, no matter where you live.

Natalie MacLean 00:51:28 If you missed episode 115, go back and take a listen. I chat with Jane Anson about her award winning book, Inside Bordeaux. I’ll share a short clip with you now to whet your appetite. You’ve also mentioned that 70% of wine in Bordeaux used to be white or sweet. So was it the British influence that caused the flip to the red?

Jane Anson 00:51:53 I love that question. So those 300 years when it was English, it was mainly red. The English basically preferred red wine, drank more red wines. The switch in Bordeaux came after the English left when the Dutch came, because the Dutch have always been much more interested in white wine. But then from 1972 or 3, it switched to red. And today Bordeaux is 90% red wine. We tend to think of Bordeaux as being such a kind of traditional, unchanging region. But then just that one statistic tells you Bordeaux is perfectly capable of changing and adapting to what consumers want.

Natalie MacLean 00:52:27 Oh, that’s a great insight to draw from it. And the fact that they remain outward focused with an international focus.

Jane Anson 00:52:33 You’re right. That’s a really good point.

Natalie MacLean 00:52:40 You won’t want to miss next week when we continue our chat with Sally. If you liked this episode or learned even one thing from it, please email or tell one friend about the podcast this week, especially someone you know who’ll be interested in learning more about starting your own winery or dream project. It’s easy to find the podcast. Just tell them to search for Natalie MacLean Wine on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, their favorite podcast app, or they can listen to the show on my website at Natalie MacLean. Email me if you have a SIP tip question. If you’d like to win one of seven copies of books by Sally, Adam, Fiona, Rosemary or if you’ve read my book or are listening to it, I’d also love to hear your thoughts on this episode. Email me at Nathalie at Natalie MacLean. Com in the show notes, you’ll find a link to take a free online food and wine pairing class with me called the Five Wine and Food Pairing Mistakes That Can Ruin Your dinner and how to fix them forever.

Natalie MacLean 00:53:36 At Natalie MacLean forward slash class. That’s all in the show notes at Natalie MacLean. Three. Three two. Thank you for taking the time to join me here. I hope something great is in your glass this week. Perhaps a Bordeaux with a fascinating backstory like Chateau George. Seven. You don’t want to miss one juicy episode of this podcast, especially the secret full bodied bonus episodes that I don’t announce on social media. So subscribe for free now at Natalie MacLean. Meet me here next week.

Natalie MacLean 00:54:21 Cheers.

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