What Is Vital About Argentina’s Old Vine Malbec and Ontario Wine’s Future with Ann Sperling and Peter Gamble?

Natalie MacLean
Jun25th

Click on the arrow to listen to this episode.

You can listen to the Unreserved Wine Talk Podcast on every podcast platform and app, including Apple Podcasts, Google Podcasts, Spotify, iHeart Radio, Android, Amazon and Pandora.

You can also subscribe for free so that you don't miss an episode. Click a button below to listen:

Introduction

What makes old Malbec vines planted in the 1920s so rare and valuable today? Why would a Canadian winemaker head to Mendoza, Argentina, to start a winery? What’s one of the biggest challenges holding back Canadian wine and how can consumers change that?

In this episode of the Unreserved Wine Talk podcast, I’m chatting with Ann Sperling & Peter Gamble.

You can find the wines we discussed here.

 

Join me on Instagram, Facebook and YouTube Live Video

Join the live-stream video of this conversation on Wednesday at 7 pm eastern on Instagram Live Video, Facebook Live Video or YouTube Live Video.

I’ll be jumping into the comments as we watch it together so that I can answer your questions in real-time.

I want to hear from you! What’s your opinion of what we’re discussing? What takeaways or tips do you love most from this chat? What questions do you have that we didn’t answer?

Want to know when we go live?

Add this to your calendar:

 

 

 

Highlights

  • What makes Devotion different from other On Seven wines?
  • What inspired Peter to look beyond Canada to Argentina for winemaking?
  • How did he decide on the particular vineyard to purchase?
  • What is massal selection in viticulture?
  • How did Versado end up with such old vines, and how does this show up in the wine?
  • Are there aspects of Malbec that are similar to Pinot?
  • How have Ann and Peter revitalized the Leily Winery?
  • What are the differences and similarities between Leily and On Seven Chardonnays?
  • What would Ann and Peter like their legacies to be in the Canadian wine industry?
  • What are the greatest threats to the Canadian wine industry?
  • Which three figures in the wine industry would Peter invite to a dream dinner party?

 

Key Takeaways

  • What makes old Malbec vines planted in the 1920s so rare and valuable today?
    • As Ann and Peter explain, in the 1905 to 1925 period in Argentina, winemakers at the time planted the greatest genetic diversity amongst the Malbec vines, because they were still learning about it. There were then a couple of periods where the authorities felt that they needed to modernize and change to Syrah and Cabernet Sauvignon, so Malbec got pulled out. Their Versado vineyard reflects that time when genetic diversity was appreciated. As well, up to the Great Depression, 1929, 1930, Argentina was a wealthy country. People not only had the culture of enjoying great food and wine, but they had the money to promote that and to live a rich life, and they wanted their homegrown wines to reflect that. And so that’s the era in which the vineyard was planted in order to make great wine.
  • Why would a Canadian winemaker head to Mendoza, Argentina to start a winery?
    • Peter was there on business with the VQA negotiating with the world about quality standards for Canadian wine in order to be accepted for trade purposes internationally. So I was with a group that did those kinds of discussions on an international level. We visited a lot of wine regions in the world for the meetings, both fun and a necessity, and one of them was Mendoza and loved the climate, loved the fact that it’s cold at night, you know, with with the with the cool wind coming down off the glaciers in the mountains, and then can be 35 degrees during the day. So a really interesting climate from the point of view of creating flavors and grapes, and really liked the lifestyle as well. They’re largely Italian and Spanish influence. Then Ann was invited down as part of a French winemaking consultation team that spent some time there and also loved it. We essentially decided it’d be interesting to do something small there that also gives us a second harvest during New Year’s. So we can practice twice as often. That was the driver, the potential quality there. We weren’t that happy with a lot of the Malbec that was being produced there. We felt that a lot of them were like chocolate bars, big, sweet, too concentrated, too bold, too monolithic, not complex, lacking the layers that they could have. And so we thought that that was an important part of what we wanted to try and do as well.
  • What’s one of the biggest challenges holding back Canadian wine and how can consumers change that?
    • They’ve been talking about this for probably the 40 years that they’ve been making wine and and they want to figure out how to have lasting consumer engagement. They have a lot of devoted buyers, but they also know kind of the monopoly culture is that, well, if the wine you were looking for today isn’t on the shelf, you can buy something else. Promoting the message of buying directly from the wineries, and if you want to try that wine that’s made in Nova Scotia or BC, that you actually can order it and have it shipped to your home province. Those interprovincial trade barriers aren’t real. There’s lots of wine shipping that’s taking place already. Just get on your computer like you do with so many other products that you buy and buy online.

 

Start The Conversation: Click Below to Share These Wine Tips

pic

What we love about Malbec is that reflection of terroir. - Ann Sperling Ann Sperling Click to tweet

 

About Ann Sperling & Peter Gamble

Often referred to as the “power couple” of the Canadian wine industry, Peter Gamble and Ann Sperling have long pursued the pinnacles of wine quality in Canadian vineyards and wineries. Following her upbringing on her family’s Okanagan Valley vineyard, Ann turned to the soil for the character and complexity of her wines. Acknowledged as a Canadian pioneer of organic and biodynamic viticulture, ‘terroir’ was at the centre of her philosophy and she is renowned for her head winemaking roles at Malivoire, Southbrook, and Sperling Vineyards. Peter, a lifetime wine industry professional, has worked alongside Canada’s most passionate winemakers to achieve greater heights with our finest appellation wines. Since 2000, Peter has provided expertise in ultra-premium winemaking operations, including: Stratus, Ravine, Benjamin Bridge and Lightfoot & Wolfville. With the purchase of a top-flight ancient Malbec planting in Mendoza, Argentina, in 2008, Ann and Peter broadened their winemaking activities, but Niagara remains their cherished home base. Current focus is on these Niagara projects: On Seven, Lailey and Stonebridge Vineyards and Dobbin Estate.

 

Resources

 

Tag Me on Social

Tag me on social media if you enjoyed the episode:

 

Thirsty for more?

  • Sign up for my free online wine video class where I’ll walk you through The 5 Wine & Food Pairing Mistakes That Can Ruin Your Dinner (and how to fix them forever!)
  • You’ll find my books here, including Unquenchable: A Tipsy Quest for the World’s Best Bargain Wines and Red, White and Drunk All Over: A Wine-Soaked Journey from Grape to Glass.
  • The new audio edition of Red, White and Drunk All Over: A Wine-Soaked Journey from Grape to Glass is now available on Amazon.ca, Amazon.com and other country-specific Amazon sites; iTunes.ca, iTunes.com and other country-specific iTunes sites; Audible.ca and Audible.com.

 

Transcript

Natalie MacLean 00:00:00 What makes old Malbec vines planted in the 1920s so rare and valuable today? Why would a Canadian winemaker head to Mendoza, Argentina to start a winery? And what’s one of the biggest challenges holding back Canadian wine? And how can consumers like us change that? In today’s episode, you’ll hear the stories and tips that answer those questions. In part two of our chat with Anne Sperling and Peter Gamble. This power couple of the Canadian winemaking world has so many awesome insights to share. If you didn’t listen to part one from last week yet, don’t worry. Listen to this episode, then go back and take a listen to that one. By the end of our conversation, you’ll also discover what makes on seven wineries devotion Chardonnay different from other wines. How Anne and Peter decided on a particular vineyard to purchase in Argentina. After looking at 230 of them. What Marcel selection means in viticulture it’s important, technical, but very important aspects of Malbec that are similar to Pinot Noir. I never thought of it this way.

Natalie MacLean 00:01:16 How Anne and Peter have revitalised Lally Winery. The differences and similarities between Laili and on seven Chardonnays, what Anne and Peter would like their legacies to be in the Canadian wine industry. The greatest threats facing the industry. The three key figures in the industry that Peter and Anne would invite to their dream dinner party. Do you have a thirst to learn about wine? Do you love stories about wonderfully obsessive people, hauntingly beautiful places, and amusingly awkward social situations? Well, that’s the blend here on the Unreserved Wine Talk podcast. I’m your host, Natalie MacLean. And each week I share with you unfiltered conversations with celebrities in the wine world, as well as confessions from my own tipsy journey as I write my third book on this subject. I’m so glad you’re here. Now pass me that bottle, please, and let’s get started. Welcome to episode 343. So, continuing with our lead up to Canada Day, I wanted to share my segments on CTV Morning Live Vancouver and CTV Morning Live Alberta, which broadcast on Monday and Tuesday this week.

Natalie MacLean 00:02:42 We focused on the stories behind some incredible wines from British Columbia. We’re kicking off with the Poplar Grove Cascadia Series Pinot Gris from Penticton. It’s bursting with aromas of fresh lime and lemon sunshine, and I pair it with Pacific Coast salmon. Either grilled or smoked. This is the 30th anniversary for this family-owned winery. Tony and Bob Haller and their four sons run the winery, which practises sustainable viticulture with hand-harvested grapes, low-intervention winemaking and solar power. The family created Cascadia Series out of necessity, following the severe frosts of 2024 that devastated B.C. vineyards. To continue bringing exceptional wines to their customers, they sourced premium grapes from just across the border in Washington state. And despite the origin of the fruit, every other part of this wine’s journey from fermentation to bottling, aging and packaging happened in B.C. Critically, maintaining those jobs for those who work in this winery and those who depend on it. You can buy this wine and all of the other wines I’m recommending directly from the winery’s websites, or just give them a call, they’ll ship the wines right to your doorstep.

Natalie MacLean 00:04:02 This is a really important way that you can support these small family farms, as they depend on direct sales to survive. Also, consider visiting these wineries for your next vacation or weekend getaway, as they all have beautiful tasting rooms with food pairings and tours in spectacular settings.

Next up I have the Vasanti Estate Winery Gamay Noir, a silky smooth, medium-bodied red from Oliver, British Columbia, with aromas of bright red cherries and a touch of spice. It’s perfect for savoury summer salads and soft cheeses. The word “Vasanti” means renewal and growth, which captures the Sidhu family’s story. Their father arrived in Canada in 1980 with just a few dollars in his pocket, and built one of the province’s most successful farming operations. Today, his three sons, Devender, Vik and Gordy, carry on that spirit with their top-tier wines. They’re all deeply involved in every aspect of the winery. Devender, a biochemist and optometrist, has published research on cool-climate viticulture, which brings additional depth and precision to the winemaking process.

Natalie MacLean 00:05:17 The Vasanti has won multiple medals at the All Canadian Wine Awards, and was a top ten finalist for Best New Winery. Next, we’re moving on to the Cloudsignature Signature Red from the Okanagan Valley in British Columbia. This winery specializes in Bordeaux blends of Cabernet Sauvignon, Merlot, Cabernet Franc, Malbec and Petit Verdot. Bold, structured and beautifully balanced. Essentially, this wine is the liquid embodiment of the Canadian Rockies. This wine won the silver medal at the International Wine and Spirits Competition in London, England, and was awarded 91 points out of 100. They farm organically and biodynamically, letting the rocky soils and mountain sun shine through in every sip. This is the kind of wine that tells a story that’s elegant yet powerful, like the landscape it comes from. Try it with a steak or grilled portobello mushrooms or aged cheddar.

I also have the bold, savoury Township 7 Winery Provenance Series Cabernet Sauvignon. It offers seductive aromas of dark plums and juicy blackberries. It’s smooth and full-bodied, perfect for barbecue steak or blue cheese.

Natalie MacLean 00:06:34 Township Seven is celebrating their 25th anniversary and is one of the few B.C. wineries with two locations – South Langley and the Naramata Bench. They produce still and sparkling wines in small artisanal lots, and their wines have consistently been awarded 90-point scores and lots of awards over the decade. Township Seven has become a leader in traditional-method sparkling wines. The Seven Stars collection has earned them multiple top honours, including Best Canadian Sparkling Wine at the Champagne and Sparkling Wine World Championships, platinum and double gold medals at the All Canadian Wine Championships, and many others. After one of the most challenging years in the Okanagan’s history with that 2024 freeze, they’re replanting their vineyards and in the meantime have introduced their Interlude Series made from Sonoma grapes. It’s a true testament to Canadian resilience and optimism. When nature gives you frost, you continue to give it your all.

For our final wine, we have a gorgeous late harvest dessert wine from Sagewood Estate Winery in Kamloops. The Dernière Fourche is bursting with luscious dark cherry and blackberry jam flavours.

Natalie MacLean 00:07:47 I’d pair it with blackberry pie or even chocolate mousse as it’s rich enough to handle it. This is pure decadence in a glass and a great reason to skip dinner entirely. Sagewood is a boutique, family-owned winery nestled on the slopes of the scenic South Thompson River. This is the region’s oldest commercial vineyard. Winemaker Doug Wood has been growing grapes since 2005, and started bottling wine under his own label in 2013. Since then, Sagewood has won more than 60 medals and awards.

All right. And you can find all of those wines on my website, of course, at Natalie MacLean. Com. I’m also reviewing and sharing these and others on Instagram at Natalie MacLean wine. So join me there. I have one copy left of the award winning book, vines in a Cold Climate, about English wine by Henry Jefferies, to give away three copies of the hilarious book. It really is funny. I bought it, so I’ll drink it. And two copies of the memoir Grape Expectations A Family’s Vineyard Adventure in France.

Natalie MacLean 00:08:55 If you’d like to win a copy, please email me and let me know. It doesn’t matter where you live. I’ll choose six winners randomly from those who contact me at Nathalie at Natalie MacLean. Com. They’d be wonderful for your own summer reading or give one as a gift to a friend. In other bookish news, if you’re reading the paperback or e-book or listening to the audiobook of my memoir wine, which on fire rising from the Ashes of Divorce, defamation and Drinking Too Much, a national bestseller and one of Amazon’s best books of the year. I’d love to hear from you at Natalie at Natalie MacLean. Com. I’d be happy to send you a beautifully designed, personally signed book. Plates for the copies you buy or give as gifts. I’ll put a link in the show notes to all retailers worldwide at Natalie MacLean 343. Okay, on with the show. All right. I think we should taste some of these wines. Lots of talk. But you’ve got from on seven, you have the wines that I have as well.

Natalie MacLean 00:10:00 The two Chardonnays. The pursuit and devotion. So we get more of an idea. Again, the theme here in terms of what you’re aiming for. Do you want to tell us about the pursuit and let’s taste as we do?

Peter Gamble 00:10:13 Yes, sure. So these are both the 21 and it’s the vintage we were referencing earlier, coincidentally. Yeah. So a cooler year, actually. Relatively warm in August. But then, as Anne said, rain continued quite thoroughly through a lot of parts of the harvest. And we talked already earlier about what we’ve done with the Pinot in terms of moving to rosé, but in fact, with the pursuit and with the devotion with the Chardonnay that year, we took a percentage of the blocks for that and moved it off into a sparkling wine. Same kind of principle as with the rosé. We were looking at numbers in the vineyard and flavors in the vineyard that were really conducive to the production of a good blown to blown Chardonnay and weren’t so perfect with regard to our target of producing a richer, more intense, more voluptuous and structured kind of comfortable and approach with the Chardonnay.

Peter Gamble 00:11:03 And so we took off those sections of those blocks that we felt would be best for the sparkling, went ahead and made the production on that, then later, always later make decisions on what we’re going to move into the two tiers, right. And so there are potentially three within the context in our original business plan at nine seven, but they’re the two so far from any of the given years. So the pursuit is the one. And then the higher tier is the devotion. And we make those decisions a lot of times based on barrel. We do wild fermentations. The wild fermentations always mean significant differences in the barrels during the fermentations, because they can all be a little bit different. That’s true. Also, the malolactic fermentation that follows that will also be wild with us, and that’ll have some impact as well, from barrel to barrel and some differences. So barrel selection becomes quite important in that. And we’ll often pay attention to which clones and which blocks are going in which direction during the processing.

Peter Gamble 00:12:00 So we have that as an option to for the selection.

Natalie MacLean 00:12:02 And so for the third as yet to be produced tier, is that going to be like obsession compulsion. What is that going to be named.

Peter Gamble 00:12:10 You should be marketing for us. I think we’ll have to talk about this.

Natalie MacLean 00:12:14 Yeah maybe I don’t know. So let’s taste this and you tell me what you’re getting from it. I’m just getting all sorts of happiness and rich. Lovely. I want to hear from you, though.

Peter Gamble 00:12:27 So it’s a younger wine. I always preface with that. We release, you know, a little bit older than many wineries do. So, you know, here it is, you know, 25 when we’re tasting a 21, which was just released last year, it’s still young and it’s intended to be we make the wines for age ability. It’s an important part of what we’re doing and it’s an important part of classic Burgundian Indian style winemaking.

Natalie MacLean 00:12:47 It’s beautiful to me. My trained palate like yours. It’s tasting beautifully.

Natalie MacLean 00:12:53 Now. Will it just get sort of nuttier as it ages or what will happen?

Peter Gamble 00:12:59 So I like the sort of velvety feel in the middle of it and the texture. And yet the finish still has bright acidity that shows you the ability of the wine. A hazelnut note, I think comes from the reduction part of the process. The wines are never fruity within the context of things. You know, we we joke sometimes about, you know, surfboard Chardonnays that have, you know, California and those kind of sort of derogatory notes about emphasizing fruit. I remember for a long time when Anna and I judged at the California State Fair, we’d have the discussion of fruit quite often on Chardonnay and other grapes, too. There were those that often proposed there was no such thing as too much fruit. You know, to which we often respond, well, you should just buy the grapes. You’d save a lot of money, right?

Peter Gamble 00:13:39 You know.

Peter Gamble 00:13:41 And so the attempt here is to reflect the terroir and the style and what happens in that area.

Peter Gamble 00:13:46 And again, within the context of Burgundian interpretation. And so a richer area, super low cropping levels, I mean, Vittorio and Sewell are comfortable to go down to, you know, sometimes a ton, an acre, a ton and a half an acre of volume. So you’re getting all of the concentration from the sun and then the terroir, you know, the soils and the minerals into a very small quantity of grapes.

Natalie MacLean 00:14:10 And how would that compare to a larger commercial operation, whether it’s in Canada or even California? How many tonnes are they taking in grapes.

Peter Gamble 00:14:18 In the Central Valley? In California, for example, as an extreme, where, you know, they irrigate and crop as much as they can and they have, you know, excess sunshine, you can reach as much as 15 or 20 tons per acre. Wow. The norm in Napa would be on Chardonnay, probably 4 to 5 on Pinot, maybe 3 to 4.

Natalie MacLean 00:14:36 So this is small. So everything’s concentrated in those little berries, which translates into the wine of concentration and death.

Peter Gamble 00:14:43 Absolutely. And it wouldn’t be different to, you know, the Grand Cru in the very Top End in Burgundy, where those those quantities are also very small.

Natalie MacLean 00:14:49 Yeah. These are beautiful. It’s just that that’s what came to me first was the nuttiness. Definitely not fruit, but it’s just so. And the mouthfeel to use a technical term or cliche, but.

Peter Gamble 00:15:00 It’s.

Peter Gamble 00:15:00 A really interesting property. And one of the things we like about it, and about great vineyards in general, is that very often, regardless of some variations in the vintage, the terroir of the vineyard will come out. So we find it. For example, during fermentation, a lot of wines from a similar region in variety can taste quite similar. And then as they gain one or 2 or 3 months age in the yeast and the fermentation aromatics come off and you start to sense more the vineyard and the source of it. You get that kind of intensity and that particular characteristics that will show a vineyard. And by the time it’s seven, eight, nine, ten months out, and even more so later, they’ll all begin to taste like, oh, this is the one seven, you know, like it’s just that vineyard has a very specific note and we love it for that.

Natalie MacLean 00:15:46 So from chewing on spinach and bark, you’ve got a project forward where this is going to be in a year, ten years, 20 years. Wow. That’s something.

Peter Gamble 00:15:56 To be a.

Peter Gamble 00:15:56 Canadian thing. You know, where the puck is going to be as opposed to where it is.

Peter Gamble 00:15:59 Exactly.

Natalie MacLean 00:16:00 Exactly. Very Canadian. So I’d love to dwell longer on each one, but I want to get through these wines and we’ve got some others to taste. So here’s the devotion, which is your step up from that. What makes these two wines different?

Ann Sperling 00:16:14 Barrel selection. So the harvesting on that small property is one day. So each variety might be on a different day, but the harvest is Chardonnay. We have to decide, you know what’s the perfect day? And we bring it all in in the morning and process it in the afternoon. But as Peter mentioned, we ferment in barrels. So those are 225 litre or 300 bottle lots. But after about 18 months to 20 months of aging, we go back to those barrels and taste them individually.

Ann Sperling 00:16:50 And then that’s really where winemaking comes into the picture. There’s all the things, the steps that you do and the plan that you make, but it’s taking those results and then bringing them together, crafting those blends. So we usually taste together on that. But in these particular wines, Peter gets the final say on which barrels go into which lot. With the goal of having the devotion being, I’ll say a little tighter, a little more restrained.

Natalie MacLean 00:17:22 I was going to say it’s compact, not concentrated, but it’s like gathered in, but it’s like a coiled spring ready to.

Peter Gamble 00:17:29 Go exactly.

Natalie MacLean 00:17:30 When it gets.

Peter Gamble 00:17:31 Older.

Ann Sperling 00:17:31 Yeah. For that age ability and also, you know, just for a longer, slower evolution.

Natalie MacLean 00:17:38 Wow. This is beautiful. It’s only tasting them side by side that obviously you can see the difference. But it’s quite something you can see again, the signature. But wow.

Peter Gamble 00:17:47 Even the color differential on the 21 a little little richer color on the devotion for sure. Definitely a little more hazelnut, a little more concentration on the finish and a little more length, you know, going out to it’s, you know, we’re happy with where that’s gone for sure.

Natalie MacLean 00:18:02 Oh, that does remind me. I have to share this with you. I visited Anne in Burgundy and she took me down to her barrel cellar, and she had an open bottle and the wine was poured and it was just the most amazing thing. And then she told me it had been open three days. That’s what the devotion reminds me of. It’s just this love, this life and this, I don’t know. I’m going to use all sorts of weird metaphors, but this really brings back Burgundy to me, especially the devotion.

Peter Gamble 00:18:33 That’s great. Yeah, we’ve noticed that in the comments of some of the writers as well. Tony Jasper made a point of saying, you know, this is very this is very moreish. I like about that, this particular line that makes it very happy again, because we work within the context of those are definitely our drivers in terms of, you know, our targets and where we like to see them. So it’s great that it even echoes it.

Natalie MacLean 00:18:53 Well done.

Natalie MacLean 00:18:54 More than an echo for sure. All right. So is there anything else you wanted to say about on seven before we move on to auto?

Peter Gamble 00:19:03 You know, I just sort of encapsulate the conversation on On Seven. It’s a really small vineyard that allows us to work with a lot of detail. We like the theory that we had initially about going for a little bit of extra heft and intensity and weight, as per, you know, or so, as opposed to Chevrolet as the earlier part of the discussion. And I think that’s a big part of where we came from. But we were delighted to see the capabilities of Niagara-on-the-Lake to develop the concentration and that kind of terroir. And I think that’s an important discussion amongst winemakers. So I had a winemaker I admire, for example, got back to us and said, whoa, that’s a really great example of, of of a Burgundian interpretation out of Niagara-on-the-Lake. It’s good to see that the Niagara-on-the-Lake soils could accomplish that, and it was a bit of guesswork.

Peter Gamble 00:19:52 Of course, with us, when we initially looked at it and whether we felt it could do that. And I think our choice of rootstock going with the rootstock that has been completely overlooked over about the last 25 years because it’s capable of producing big crops, and so people stay away from it in order to do small crops. But if you choose it, those roots go really, really, really deep into the soil. They have the biggest sort of root structure of anything out there, and then still choose to do very careful viticulture on, you know, above the ground in order to reduce the crop yourselves, but bring all of that energy and all of that vigor up from the ground. I think that’s a big part of how we captured the terroir of Niagara and Lake in this wine. So.

Natalie MacLean 00:20:32 Absolutely. And is there a Pinot noir in production?

Ann Sperling 00:20:36 Yes, yes there is. 23 and 24 in barrels. So, you know, Peter keeps talking about the small production and you know for sure Pinot noir is still a smaller part of the overall.

Ann Sperling 00:20:51 But for those dedicated, wine club, you know, fans, they’re going to get some Pinot noir, you know, relatively soon. I won’t say it’s this year because we haven’t bottled the the 20 threes yet, but they’re definitely coming along and we’re really excited about them. So so it’s you know, it’s a sign up and get your allocation annually kind of situation.

Natalie MacLean 00:21:16 Because it’s such a small production. So it’s available from the website. Is it on seven Wines? Yeah. We’ll put a link in the show notes so that people can find them. Support your local producers. Absolutely. All right, let’s move on to Versailles. What inspired you to look beyond Canada, to Argentina for winemaking? What drew you to Argentina itself?

Peter Gamble 00:21:39 I was down there on business, but back in the day of doing Vka and we were negotiating with the world. The French really more than anyone about quality wine standards and what Canadian wine standards had to be in order to be accepted for trade purposes internationally. So so I was with a group that did that, those kind of discussions on an international level, and we visited a lot of wine regions in the world for the meetings, both fun and a necessity.

Peter Gamble 00:22:03 And one of them was Mendoza. Love the climate, love the fact that it’s cold at night with the cool wind coming down off the glaciers in the mountains and then can be 35 degrees during, you know, the day. So a really interesting climate from the point of view of creating flavors and grapes and really liked the lifestyle as well. They’re largely Italian and Spanish influence about 50 over 50 in Mendoza. And so I liked it and then and got invited down a little bit later as part of a French winemaking consultation team that spent some time there. Also loved it. We essentially decided it would be interesting to do something small. There also gives us a second harvest during the year, you know, so we can we can practice twice as often. You know, it’s.

Natalie MacLean 00:22:48 Well, it’s the opposite opposite seasons because it’s in the southern hemisphere. So your fall or your harvest is in March is it.

Peter Gamble 00:22:54 Yeah. Yeah. Normally March occasionally sneaks into April. Yeah.

Natalie MacLean 00:22:58 Yeah. Don’t think about taking any time off.

Natalie MacLean 00:23:00 Like, why would you?

Peter Gamble 00:23:02 Big spaces between now.

Ann Sperling 00:23:03 So it’s okay, right?

Peter Gamble 00:23:06 Yeah. Yeah. So that was the driver. We weren’t that happy with a lot of the Malbec that was being produced there. We felt that it was. You know, a lot of them were like chocolate bars, you know, big, sweet, heavy, too concentrated, too full, too monolithic, not complex, lacking the layers that they could have. And so we felt that that was an important part of what we wanted to try and do as well.

Natalie MacLean 00:23:26 And what made you decide this vineyard was the one, so to speak, after 230 evaluations?

Peter Gamble 00:23:31 Yeah, that was the big part of it. It was the decision. Can we find something of that kind of caliber? And it’s more difficult to buy from outside, even though we had people from inside doing both the consultation on what to buy, helping us source them while we while we weren’t there, those that might be available for sale and, you know, providing some guidance in terms of what might be best and what was worth looking at.

Peter Gamble 00:23:51 It’s a really broad area. As you get high up the mountains, you’re producing, you know, one ton an acre when you get down even ten kilometers away to the lower parts of the flats, as you move out of the foothills, you can be producing 15 or 20 tons an acre of wine that you can sell at $2 a bottle. You know, it’s,

Natalie MacLean 00:24:09 Because the colder it gets, the less the grapes can ripen or survive. Is that kind of what’s.

Ann Sperling 00:24:14 Going on in.

Peter Gamble 00:24:15 The soils? You know, so rockier soils, more barren soils, they’re not as productive as the rich soils that have been washed down off the hillsides into the, you know, the valleys underneath. And so, you know, differences on a number of those fronts and, of course, temperature. You know, you mentioned, much cooler as you’re closer to the glaciers and higher up. So big differences there. So we had a lot of things to look at and to understand. That’s where the consultation with the likes of Roberto de la Mata, who is our primary consultant on viticulture and on winemaking, as we began a project and it was a different climate for us for sure.

Peter Gamble 00:24:47 Even then, the south end of the Okanagan and, you know, much different than Nova Scotia and Ontario. The hunt became the important part and we paid a lot of attention, tasted a lot of wine, tasted neighbors wines, tasted, previous wines from that vineyard until we finally, nailed something in an area, surprisingly, that Roberto had identified right out of the gates as the absolute sweet spot on which we’d almost given up. Thinking that that, you know, no one from outside of the country was going to be able to buy anything in that particular area and finally lucked out.

Ann Sperling 00:25:19 Yeah. Well, and a certain moment, the universe spoke to us. So we had to, you know, that we couldn’t ignore it at that point. Right? We got.

Natalie MacLean 00:25:27 To the universe said, make a decision, will.

Ann Sperling 00:25:30 You? Well, no, it wasn’t.

Ann Sperling 00:25:31 It wasn’t just that and that. It you know, it relates to a much earlier experience that Peter had with Malbec.

Peter Gamble 00:25:39 So the story ends leading up to is, one of the earliest days in my winemaking.

Peter Gamble 00:25:44 What’s now Trias at Hildebrand was I was judging at a competition in Toronto, and it was the inter van competition by Andrew Sharpe, which folded not long after that. But in the very early days of that, I was on a tasting panel with Tony Hassler, Lloyd Evans and Dave Larson. Right. So all you know, many still, you know, active members in the industry. And, we had a blind tasting. We don’t know what we’re tasting. And at that time when we’re when you’re judging, when you’re giving a double goal, that’s because everybody’s judged it individually as a gold without conversation with any of the other judges. And so it’s a little different than how most competitions now allow you to discuss at the end and then decide what the metal is going to be. But a double gold at that time meant that. And we were tasting these two wines in this flight that had identified by four digits and were tasting them, and we all gave them gold. And as we passed them in, we’re then allowed to talk.

Peter Gamble 00:26:41 Well, what were those wines like? The two wines, very similar in style, really interesting, fabulous texture. Seemed like Bordeaux esque varieties, but more elegant, almost Pinot like, you know, some some barnyard notes that are more Pinot esque, some things that really made it fascinating and we’d all really love the wines. And so we asked later, you know, by digit, you know, Andrew, what what were these wines? And it turned out that it was the re-entry, essentially of Argentina into the international wine world of competition. Prior to that, they they made wine really average wines for local consumption. And they were the largest consumers in the world, right up with France and Spain in terms of annual consumption in Italy. So not a lot of what was done abroad, and not a lot of it was top end. This turned out to be, we found out from wine turned producer that was had just begun and had hired Raoul de la motta. Roberto’s father, a great winemaker, studied in France, became legendary both there and in Argentina, who was the winemaker of this wine.

Peter Gamble 00:27:41 And so this story is becoming even longer. But in tasting those wines, we were really amazed at what they were and how they tasted and everything. And so years and years later, 25 years later, 30 years later, I’m now driving around in Argentina after having looked at a couple of hundred vineyards and not having found the ones we want. I get an indication on on a phone call while I’m driving that there’s a vineyard, small vineyard for sale in bankruptcy, in what turns out to be pretty close to the sweet spot. So I get quickly onto the phone with Roberto and say, you know, describe it to him and say where it is, it’s on. It’s just off Princeton Road. It’s on Cobus, you know, the legendary high road of Argentina where Malbec is old Malbec is famous. I’m sort of describing it to him as I’m driving along. He says, okay, you’re across Branson. And he says, is there a soccer pitch on the right? I said, yeah, there is.

Peter Gamble 00:28:30 And he says, at the next vineyard. And I look at the number on it and sure enough, that’s the number of the vineyard. And he says, I know that one. He says, my dad used that wine back in the 78 from from right, which is just like.

Natalie MacLean 00:28:42 So that was the wine you were tasting in the conversation.

Peter Gamble 00:28:44 Yeah. So this is 30 years later and it’s from it was used in that proposition when it was.

Ann Sperling 00:28:49 Meant.

Peter Gamble 00:28:49 To be. They actually still have a barrel of the 2008, the year before we bought it in separate into. No in the cellar of Vinod as we speak, kept separately from the rest of the production. That hasn’t been bottled yet. Yeah.

Natalie MacLean 00:29:04 Can Malbec age.

Ann Sperling 00:29:05 That? Oh, yeah. Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. Yeah. Okay. Yeah.

Natalie MacLean 00:29:08 Obviously. You think so? Yeah. Because you’re you’re making now.

Ann Sperling 00:29:11 Wow, that is so cool.

Peter Gamble 00:29:12 Yeah. That’s one of the background stories on it. And again, we were just lucky to get something in that area.

Peter Gamble 00:29:17 Eventually after having a look for so long. It’s location, location location. It’s high 980m. You know of the old vines. It was as high as you get. We’re Were organic and were at the very top of the water supply coming in, melting off the glaciers. So we don’t need to worry about the chemicals that have been used above us, because we’re the first to receive the water.

Ann Sperling 00:29:38 Yeah, you can get runoff.

Natalie MacLean 00:29:39 And that.

Ann Sperling 00:29:40 Really.

Natalie MacLean 00:29:41 Impacts if you’re trying to do.

Ann Sperling 00:29:42 Organics. Very important in that regard too.

Peter Gamble 00:29:44 And a lot of other things that were just as an said, the universe spoke to us. This had to be the spot.

Natalie MacLean 00:29:49 Yeah, absolutely. Let’s keep talking about versatile while we taste. Shall we do the 2019 first?

Ann Sperling 00:29:55 Sure. Yeah.

Natalie MacLean 00:29:56 Okay. Because, so, the vines pre phylloxera, like, we’re not affected by. You said they’re ancient vines. Were they planted in the 1920s?

Ann Sperling 00:30:08 Yeah. 1920. So Argentina, their wine industry took a lot of lessons from the French and they’re very bureaucratic.

Ann Sperling 00:30:17 So which can be really annoying at times. But it also means that they’ve had a really good system for registering their vineyards. And so in, our vineyard was planted in 1920. At that time, Malbec was still quite recent. It was known back then as the French grape. It was being, like, broadly planted, but with a lot of diversity in the vineyards. Even some people feel that seedlings were being experimented with from Malbec, which is very diverse. So this is a Marcell planting its own rooted.

Natalie MacLean 00:30:55 Let me just interject there, if you don’t mind, because I had to look this up in and correct me because I think listeners would like to know what that means. Marcel selection is a traditional viticulture practice where new vines are propagated using the cuttings or buds taken from a diverse group of healthy, exceptional existing vines from a vineyard or nearby. And unlike clonal selection, which multiplies a single genetically identical vine, Marcel selection involves selecting multiple vines with desirable traits, such as disease resistance, adaptation to local terroir, unique flavor profiles, and so you get more genetic diversity and resistance to disease.

Natalie MacLean 00:31:35 Tell me where I went wrong with that or whatever.

Ann Sperling 00:31:38 Yeah, no, that’s exactly right. So the other thing that comes into that is that, okay, so you’ve made your planting, but over time some vines die. So maybe they weren’t as resilient for whatever reason. Maybe there was, you know, some stressful circumstance. You know, some vines die. But usually, like with Marcel, the benefit is, is that many of them live. But in Argentina we can manage phylloxera. So I won’t say it doesn’t exist, but we can manage phylloxera through the use of the irrigation system. So what we’re able to do is grow the vines on their own feet. So no grafting and no North American rootstocks. So it’s purely Malbec, but we can also take a cane, grow a long cane, and then grow it long enough that you can keep it attached to the mother. Bury it in the ground about a foot deep. And then.

Natalie MacLean 00:32:37 Do you mean the head of a cane? Like you’re bending it over?

Ann Sperling 00:32:39 Yeah.

Ann Sperling 00:32:40 You take the whole cane, you lay it into the earth, and then you bring a chute or two out of the ground and the beauty of vines. And you can do this with any of the vines growing in your garden. Is that every node, if it’s buried, will root. People might have noticed that with ivy and things like that, that if it’s near the Earth, it’ll start to grow roots. So a grapevine is the same, so you leave it attached to the mother plant. It gets the energy from the mother plant, but it’s growing its own root system during that time. So it’s not reliant upon, you know, like with a nursery vine there’s like four inches of roots, which is almost nothing And very shallow root zone that it’s buried in and all of that. Whereas this plant has the benefit of that huge engine of roots that the mother plant has, and then it can establish within about two years. And, you know, at that time is when usually traditionally it was severed from the mother vine.

Ann Sperling 00:33:41 But there are some people thinking about the idea of just leaving them all attached. But by doing that layering process, you’re propagating the mixed DNA of the vineyard, right? And the most successful vines that are existing in the vineyard at a given time, you know, it’s really long term thinking, but it is, you know, kind of working with and culturing the most successful plants in the vineyard. And hopefully that goes along with wine quality. But what’s really cool about the timing of our vineyards existence is that in that sort of 1905 to 1925 period. Well, there’s two things, I guess that was when there was the greatest genetic diversity amongst the Malbec plantings, because they were still learning about it. And there were subsequently a couple of periods where the authorities felt that we needed to modernize and change to Syrah and Cabernet Sauvignon, things like that. So Malbec got pulled out. And so our vineyard reflects that time when genetic diversity was appreciated. The other thing is that in that 1920s period, up until, say, the Great Depression, 1929, 1930 and onwards, Argentina was a wealthy country.

Ann Sperling 00:35:04 People not only had the culture of enjoying great food and wine, but they had the money to promote that and to live a rich life, and they wanted their homegrown wines to reflect that. And so that’s kind of the theme or the era in which the vineyard was planted. You know, in order to make great wine. And so we were thrilled to be able to get something like that, that we could continue that legacy, because even though, you know, in Canada, we’d think, oh, if you got a vineyard planted in 1950, like, that’s old vines, right? But in that period in Argentina, it was a dictatorship and there were sanctions. So you couldn’t ship wine outside the country anyway. And so production became very focused internally and more just as a beverage rather than as some cultural icon.

Natalie MacLean 00:35:58 Yeah. Because you’re saying at that time Argentina was the sixth richest nation in the world. So they were also testing and getting the best clones from wherever Bordeaux. I mean, Malbec is one of the five original blending grapes for Bordeaux.

Natalie MacLean 00:36:12 So you’ve got these vines that come from that time. Best of everything. So let’s also talk about the other versus here, the reserve, which I did pour out in decant because you said it has sediment.

Ann Sperling 00:36:24 Yeah.

Ann Sperling 00:36:25 So, yeah, the 2014 Reserva. We’ve got a small stream of that wine coming into Ontario through our agent crew, and it’s wine from our library. And, you know, it’s had the benefit of aging very comfortably in an underground cellar in Mendoza. And so over the years, it’s thrown a fine sediment. You know, we always recommend to stand the bottle upright for a few days and then open it, decant it off that sediment, because the characteristics are much finer. There’s the coarseness really does drop out with the sediment. And so that fineness is a reflection of elegance that happens over time in wine. So the tannins and some color will join together and fall out of the wine. But what it leaves you is something finer. So that’s really what we’re seeing in the 2014.

Ann Sperling 00:37:23 At this stage in its life cycle, you just get a really elegant wine, that baby fat fruit like the 2019 Centenary vines, you know, is showing still that baby fat’s gone and it’s all about the wines, life and bottle. So there’s the fullness and the richness that originated from the grapes. But, you know, all of the characteristics are what we call tertiary. And, you know, that’s a reflection of aging.

Natalie MacLean 00:37:51 Yeah. It’s beautiful. It’s very elegant. And you compare Malbec to Pinot, but I can see it coming through in the the aged versatile. Are there other ways in which Malbec is like Pinot? Because I guess it’s our experience with these liquid chocolate bars that you would referred to. Peter I would never think of Malbec being like Pinot, but in what ways are they similar?

Ann Sperling 00:38:11 I would start with Malbec reflects terroir. He knows really famous for that. But so is Riesling and Malbec. And, you know, unfortunately, in that world of Jay Miller scores that were rewarding wines that had massive amounts of new wood and black color and, you know, just really big rich.

Ann Sperling 00:38:35 And whether you want to call them, you know, chocolate bars or chocolate cherry, you know, those wines were being rewarded with high scores during that sort of early 2000 and an international style was developing. And so there wasn’t really an advantage for winemakers to show the differences between sites of where Malbec was grown. And, and, you know, the many people sort of fell into that international style. And that’s where you know what what we love about Malbec is that that reflection of terroir.

Natalie MacLean 00:39:09 Absolutely. All right. We’re going to move on to Lily so that we don’t miss it, although there’s so much more we could talk about with these wines, but let’s move on to Laili in Niagara. Many wine lovers, you know, admire the wines of Derek Barnett, and the lately property has changed hands a few times. Shifted to ice wine production at one point. But let’s talk about how the new ownership let me know if I’m pronouncing this correctly. Of fake Turkmen in 2021 has revitalized this historic and iconic property.

Ann Sperling 00:39:40 Yeah, so there’s a back story, and I’ll let Peter get into that. But we were already working with fake on his Stonebridge Wines, and I guess a number of things came together that made it interesting to look at the Laili property. And so the chance to kind of bring that property back to its former reputation and fine wine production, you know that Donna and David Laili had worked for many years to accomplish, and certainly with the winemaking help of Derek Barnett. And, you know, Derek’s passion for letting people know about all of his lovely wines. All of that was really intriguing to us. Do you want to talk about the Stonebridge? Yeah, and the whole process.

Peter Gamble 00:40:28 So initial project was with Stonebridge, and it’s sort of in the middle of Niagara at fifth and sixth Concessions and Lyons. And so right in the middle, removed from the, moderation of the lake and of the river and also in really, really slow soil. So, super low cropping, really big intensity on the wine.

Peter Gamble 00:40:49 So good for production of lots of weight, lots of flavor, small production, smaller berries as a rule, and really good flavor. Smaller berries give you a chance, for example, to have a greater skin component, particularly important within the reds to juice components. So you’re getting more of the color, more of the tin, a little more depth and intensity, and wines that can be big. But because they’re low cropped and in that particular area. The soils are quite complex. You’re ending up with really interesting and complex flavours as well. So we we liked that vineyard and we liked the idea of working with that. And that’s where it began. And we were looking at the prospect of building the winery there a bit off the wine trail and sort of, I don’t want to say in the middle of nowhere, but in the midst of things as opposed to precisely on the trails. And so a harder place to bring people with a small operation. And we heard through the grapevine, so to speak, that Laili was for sale and could be available.

Peter Gamble 00:41:44 We knew the property well. I’d worked with Donna, and originally she consulted for us viticulture on the Stratus project, because the soils there are similar to the Laili site and knew Donna and David well and the wines well. And of course Derek and thought has real potential and is a really good site right on the parkway. So good from a commercial point of view and wanted to take advantage of being able to do that. Anyhow, the long story short, the price worked out to be something that would be positive. It seemed like a better idea with the price increases that had just taken place with Covid and the interruption of international shipping and the price of the winery construction going up. And so we took advantage of that and purchased lately and, began to combine the two operations. So both vineyards are still owned and we work with the Lily vineyard and with the Stonebridge Vineyard as well. So this is the Laili lineup that we’ve we’ve brought for tasting today.

Natalie MacLean 00:42:39 Yeah. And Lily has or had 17 varieties, different grapes planted across 18 acres.

Natalie MacLean 00:42:47 Is that still going on that much variety.

Ann Sperling 00:42:51 So, I mean, sadly, the intervening years with the other ownership weren’t as good to the vineyards and the 2122 winter was pretty severe. And so not only were there like some quality issues, I’ll say that we were concerned about in the vineyard before that, but also the winter injury meant that it was more from a long term perspective, practical to replant the vineyard. So we’ve kept many of the great varieties that the lilies had established there, but we’ve actually put them into bigger blocks. And then we were working with some, you know, with each variety. So for example, we have Cabernet Sauvignon, we have three clones. We’re working with two clones that we’re really comfortable with. And we knew from existing planting at Lily and and in Niagara. And then we’ve introduced a new clone into the block so that we’ve got something new to work with and something, you know, to plan the future on.

Natalie MacLean 00:43:55 Including the Riesling.

Ann Sperling 00:43:56 Yeah, there’s the Riesling.

Ann Sperling 00:43:58 So we’re working with many of the same varieties with the Riesling 22. This was the last of the old vines. So 22, even though we had winter injury and we lost a number of vines. We were able to make wine, so the 20 twos that were tasting today are a look at sort of the last of the old vine plantings there.

Natalie MacLean 00:44:20 That’s very juicy and mouthwatering. It’s got that stone fruit.

Ann Sperling 00:44:25 The thing that’s fun about the lily property is that it’s a long, narrow vineyard and not necessarily the favorite of the tractor drivers because the rows are really short. But what’s fun as a viticulture is that it stretches from the eastern edge of the parkway. So with the Niagara River influence and the cool influences of that massive volume of flowing water all the way to concession one, so a mile away, where about halfway through the vineyard, the influences of the river dissipate. And so you’re getting a warmer summertime temperature and a cooler winter impact. You know, the climate’s not uniform and the soils aren’t uniform.

Ann Sperling 00:45:11 They go from loamy sand to a heavier, you know, more clay influenced soil. So there is a lot of opportunity to match varieties to soil differences and climate differences. So it’s been a fun project that way to, you know, really line things up with the soils and the temperatures.

Natalie MacLean 00:45:33 That’s awesome. And we’ve also got the Chardonnay. How would you compare and contrast Lily and on seven they both make Chardonnay.

Ann Sperling 00:45:42 Yeah. And Stonebridge.

Ann Sperling 00:45:43 There.

Natalie MacLean 00:45:44 And.

Ann Sperling 00:45:44 Stonebridge.

Ann Sperling 00:45:44 You know definitely three points to a triangle in Niagara on the Lake in terms of their location, but also the soil differences. So at Stonebridge the soils are as Peter mentioned, they’re like super fine particles, lots of clay influence, thankfully. You know, it’s well grained, but it’s a very slow draining property with tons of mineral influence and low yields, and at on seven it’s sort of an intermediate soil. So, you know, I wouldn’t say that there’s really any sand there, but there’s a lot more loam in that soil.

Ann Sperling 00:46:22 So it’s just a little more farming friendly in that sense and just slightly more giving but works, you know, under the organic regime. And then at Langley there is a more sand influence, but also the coolness of the river that’s influencing it. So you get a little more vibrancy of character. I think the vines grow bigger and a little bushier at Langley. And, you know, there’s just a little more cool influence from all of that. And that’s what I’m seeing in the reflection in all of these wines, a certain balance and elegance that just naturally pushes through.

Natalie MacLean 00:47:00 Yeah, definitely. And still lots of energy. I just want to make sure I mentioned the Pinot Noir as well. How would you describe this one?

Ann Sperling 00:47:09 The Pinot Noir is, I’m getting often more fruit from the lily property. More fruit forwardness. These Chardonnay and the Pinot were both barrel aged, wild, fermented like, good 24 months in barrel. So the weight that you’re seeing is after all of that aging. So. And the fruitiness that’s, that’s kind of lifting up and kind of pushing through on these wines.

Ann Sperling 00:47:35 So I think there’s, you know, a nice amount of complexity from there, life in barrel. But there’s always that vibrancy that’s supporting it.

Natalie MacLean 00:47:43 Yeah. I really like the tart cherry. It’s it’s nervy. It’s energetic again. What are the goals now for Lily looking forward.

Ann Sperling 00:47:52 Well certainly to keep the vineyard lots separate for the most part from Stonebridge to keep the two lines of products and to welcome guests. You know, whether they’ve been Lily fans all along or whether there are new discoveries, and to offer the lineups that reflect the vineyards. And so that fruity vibrancy and liveliness in the lily wines that will continue. And Stonebridge started out mostly Chardonnay focus, but new plantings have come on stream over the last three years, and so we’ve got Bordeaux reds primarily that are coming from the property and, you know, big, full bodied and very classically made wines.

Peter Gamble 00:48:37 A little bit of Syrah.

Ann Sperling 00:48:39 A very little bit. Looking forward to a bit more in the future.

Natalie MacLean 00:48:45 Yeah, yeah. It’s interesting though, to see just the vast difference between on seven and Lily Chardonnays.

Natalie MacLean 00:48:51 I mean, they’re both lovely in their own right, but they are very different expressions of the grape. So very nicely done. All right. Before you expire here on me, because I know this has been a long conversation. What do you want to be remembered for? Top notch wines, obviously. But what would you like your legacy to be in the Canadian wine industry?

Ann Sperling 00:49:13 I mean, for me, when I kind of reflect back, I see that, you know, in the process of doing what we’ve been doing, which is working on new projects, introducing new winery owners to the business and to the culture of wine. And we’ve hired many people and worked with them and handed over the reins to many young people that are going to carry on in the wine industry. And so we’ve always looked for people with a lot of passion and commitment to be able to take over so we can move on to the next project, but also so that we know that what we’ve started is in good hands.

Ann Sperling 00:49:55 And so I think that mentorship kind of reflects but what we want to see, you know, a healthy wine industry with a whole range of People, but also engaged consumers so that, you know, we can keep doing it. And those people that we’ve brought along can also continue, you know, many years into the future.

Natalie MacLean 00:50:15 That’s terrific. And what do you see are the greatest challenges or threats to the Canadian wine industry?

Ann Sperling 00:50:21 Yeah, I mean, again, from my perspective, it’s something that we’ve been talking about for probably almost the 40 years that we’ve been making wine. And it’s just we want to figure out how to have lasting consumer engagement. So I know that, you know, I’m speaking to the converted with your group, and we have a lot of devoted buyers. But we also know that kind of the monopoly culture is that, well, if it’s if you’re the wine you were looking for today isn’t on the shelf, you can buy something else. And, you know, really promoting the message about buying directly from the wineries, as you mentioned earlier, and knowing that if you want to try that wine that’s made in Nova Scotia or BC that you actually can order it and have it shipped to your home province.

Ann Sperling 00:51:10 Those interprovincial trade barriers aren’t real. There’s lots of wine shipping that’s taking place already, so just get on your computer like you do with so many other products that you buy and buy online.

Natalie MacLean 00:51:23 Absolutely. And whatever is left of those barriers are coming down. Day by day, there’s new agreements all the time between the provinces. And, you know, we hear it’s going to be completely open by July 1st. But even if it’s not, just go ahead and buy it online anywhere. Ship it anywhere. Do it. Support local farms across the country. Yeah, absolutely. So if you two were to plan your dream dinner party with three figures in the wine industry, who would they be?

Ann Sperling 00:51:51 Well, I’m going to say I’ll do the cooking.

Ann Sperling 00:51:53 Oh, yes. Okay.

Natalie MacLean 00:51:55 So it’s up to.

Ann Sperling 00:51:56 You, Peter.

Natalie MacLean 00:51:57 I don’t know, invite the guests.

Peter Gamble 00:51:58 Sounded like a shift, isn’t it?

Ann Sperling 00:52:00 Yeah. Yeah.

Peter Gamble 00:52:03 And so I always like to stay on top of things that are happening. And what’s interesting in the wine industry now, and who’s doing things that might be of interest in the areas that we’re working.

Peter Gamble 00:52:13 You know what’s happening out there. That might be a theory we can incorporate. We just got back from a trip to Europe and and in our usual method of combining things, we’d like to see, you know, like the Prado and Madrid and things like that. We also we stayed sort of halfway between there and the Guido’s Mountains, where a group of really amazing winemakers, you know, Commando Gee, Danny Landy and some others and Daniel Ramos have been working on some methods of producing wines that then involve lesser maceration on the red, slightly lower alcohol, working at higher altitudes in their case in order to make more elegant wine, and just an elegantly different wine. In terms of maceration, it’s almost more, you know, steeped like a tea from a flavor perspective, you know, sort of gentle flavorings as opposed to really rich, intense. Michelle Rowland like her Parker like levels of concentration. And so, you know, we stay on top of that. I think, having winemakers that are doing things interestingly in that regard are important.

Peter Gamble 00:53:13 At Dobbin, we’ve incorporated, you know, a lot of old theories as it relates to Riesling and not being one harvest, but being seven harvests over a seven week period, picking grapes, even berry by berry, as you get toward the end with, for vitriolic influence and things like that. So I think it would be a larger group, maybe, Natalie, that brought in people that were doing different things in different areas as it relates to wine, and seeing how it all incorporated a large part of what we want to do and playing off and comment about, you know, the future and the heritage of it going forward, has been working with the recognition that Niagara and British Columbia and Nova Scotia are all areas that are, you know, very conducive to the production of fine wine, most of the lesser wines coming, for example, from Ontario, often aren’t even coming from Ontario. They’re blended wines that are, you know, international blends being sent in to our big bottlers and then maybe blended with a little bit of Ontario.

Peter Gamble 00:54:10 Those are the less expensive wines. The the wines that we can produce in those regions naturally are the kind of things we’re doing at three tons an acre, four tons an acre, you know, very fine quality there. Parallels not with, you know, the big volumes coming out of, you know, Italy and Spain and California. But comparisons with the tiny regions like, like Burgundy, like champagne, like Napa, where they’re, they’re more expensive products. And, and so we work in that area and we like to do as much as we can, you know, to bring attention to those, you know, very, very high quality artisan wines to keep that part of the industry alive and healthy going forward, and to make sure that, you know, some price points are there that can justify winemakers doing absolutely everything they can to make the finest as possible. Wine from a vineyard?

Natalie MacLean 00:55:00 Yeah. I’ll raise my glass to that. Where can we find you both online. And your wines? Do you have a website or social media?

Ann Sperling 00:55:08 So versatile.

Ann Sperling 00:55:10 Wine is versatile and we can be connected through that. We actually don’t have a website for our our consulting business.

Ann Sperling 00:55:19 But you’re too.

Natalie MacLean 00:55:19 Busy.

Ann Sperling 00:55:20 Consulting. Oh.

Ann Sperling 00:55:22 Yeah. It’s. Yeah, it’s it’s part of our shtick. but we’re on Facebook and Instagram, so you can find us there.

Natalie MacLean 00:55:31 We’ll put all the links again in the show notes. Thank you both for this. So appreciate especially the extra time you’ve taken here to cover all these terrific wines. Well done. Thank you for what you’ve done for the Canadian wine industry, the amazing wines that you have produced, and also the culture of wine that you’ve spread. And as you say, the mentorship of bringing up a new generation across the country. So thank you.

Peter Gamble 00:55:56 Thank you Natalie.

Natalie MacLean 00:55:57 All right. Cheers. So I’ll say goodbye for now. And I look forward to continuing this conversation in person someday.

Ann Sperling 00:56:05 Okay. Take care. All right. Cheers. Bye.

Natalie MacLean 00:56:13 Well, there you have it. I hope you enjoyed our chat with Anne and Peter.

Natalie MacLean 00:56:17 Here are my takeaways. Number one, what makes old Malbec vines planted in the 1920s so rare and valuable today? As Anne and Peter explained, between 1905 and 1925, in Argentina, winemakers planted the greatest genetic diversity among Malbec vines because they were still learning about it. Then there were a couple of periods where the authorities felt they needed to modernize and change to sarong Cabernet Sauvignon. So Malbec got pulled out. Their versatile vineyard reflects a time when that genetic diversity was appreciated as well, up to the Great Depression. Argentina was a really wealthy country, so people not only had a culture of enjoying great food and wine, but they also had the money to promote that and to live a rich life, and they wanted their homegrown wines to reflect that. Number two, why would a Canadian winemaker or two head to Mendoza, Argentina to start a winery? Well, first Peter was there on business with the Vka negotiating with the world about quality standards for Canadian wine in order to be accepted for trade purposes. He visited a lot of wine regions in the world for meetings, both fun and out of necessity.

Natalie MacLean 00:57:32 One of them was Mendoza. He loved the climate, the fact that it’s cold at night with a cool wind coming down off the glaciers in the mountains, and then it can be 35 degrees during the day. So a really interesting climate from his perspective for creating flavors and grapes. And he liked the lifestyle. They’re largely Italian and Spanish in influence. Then Anne was invited down as part of a French winemaking consultation team and spent time there and also loved it. That’s when they decided it would be interesting to do something small boutique that gave them a second harvest during New Years. These are not people who like to rest so they can practice twice as often, was their rationale. That was the driver as well as the potential quality there. And number three, what is one of the biggest challenges holding back Canadian wine, and how can consumers like us change that? Peter and Anna have been talking about this issue for 40 years while they’ve been making wine, how to have lasting consumer engagement and loyalty. They do have a lot of devoted buyers, but they also know that if the wine you’re looking for isn’t on the shelf, you can just buy something else.

Natalie MacLean 00:58:44 So that means you’re often overlooking small boutique wineries, promoting the message of buying directly from these wineries. And you know, if you want to try a wine that’s made in Nova Scotia or B.C. or Ontario, Quebec, wherever you can actually order it and have it shipped to your doorstep. Those interprovincial trade barriers aren’t real, they say. And I have to agree. In reality, you can ship anything anywhere. There’s lots of wine being shipped back and forth already. And with the new leadership in government, let’s hope that just continues. And all the barriers officially come down. As they say, just get on your computer like you do with so many other products that you buy online, and order yourself some wine. In the show notes, you’ll find the full transcript of my conversation with Anne and Peter, links to their website and to the websites of the wineries mentioned, so that you can order directly from them the video versions of these conversations on Facebook and YouTube live, and where you can order my book online now no matter where you live.

Natalie MacLean 00:59:44 If you missed episode 75, go back and take a listen. I chat about Niagara’s present and future with winemaking pioneer Klaus Rife. I’ll share a short clip with you now to whet your appetite.

Klaus Reif 00:59:57 Good morning. My opinion has a right to balance the harmony. I always come here like an orchestra. You have an amazing piano player. You have an amazing trumpet player or a drum player. But you say out of tune comes over. That’s why I try to come to the mind to bring all elements together, to play in harmony.

Natalie MacLean 01:00:17 That’s a great analogy, Klaus, because even if they’re in tune. But if the piano is dominating the whole orchestra, it’s not as beautiful as it could be with all the elements in harmony. And you don’t go, oh, there’s that trombone again. Everything has to work together so that there’s this greater sense of the whole, or the piece of music or the wine than you would get with just a solo by one instrument, I like that. You won’t want to miss next week when we chat with Amy Whitlock, editor in chief of decanter, the world’s most prestigious wine magazine.

Natalie MacLean 01:00:53 She’ll be joining us from her office in London, England, to chat about her new book, The Ultimate Travel Guide for Wine Lovers. She has so many great tips. Get ready to create your bucket list or should I say your spittoon list. If you liked this episode or learned even one thing from it, please email or tell one friend about the podcast this week, especially someone you know who’d be interested in learning more about Niagara and Argentine wines. It’s easy to find the Unreserved Wine Talk podcast, just tell them to search for Natalie MacLean Wine on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, their favorite podcast app, or they can listen to the show on my website at Natalie MacLean. Podcast. Email me if you have a SIP tip question, or would like to win one of six copies of the books we have to give away. Of course, I’d also love to hear your thoughts on this episode, or if you’ve read my book or are listening to it. Email me at Nathalie at Natalie MacLean. In the show notes, you’ll also find a link to take a free online food and wine pairing class with me, called the Five Wine and Food Pairing Mistakes That Can Ruin Your Dinner and How to Fix Them Forever.

Natalie MacLean 01:01:58 At Natalie MacLean dot com forward slash. And that’s all in the show notes at Natalie MacLean. 343. Thank you for taking the time to join me here. I hope something great is in your glass this week. Perhaps an old vines Malbec. You don’t want to miss one juicy episode of this podcast, especially the secret full bodied bonus episodes that I don’t announce on social media. So subscribe.

Ann Sperling 01:02:31 For.

Natalie MacLean 01:02:31 Free now at Natalie MacLean. Meet me here next week.

Ann Sperling 01:02:38 Cheers!

Books and Wine, Books: Wine, Boxed Wine, Food & Wine Pairing, Podcasts, Serving Wine, Taste Wine, Wine Question, Wine Style, Wine Tasting, Wine Tasting Notes, Wine Trends, Wine Writing, Women and Wine