Why Mouton Cadet, Bordeaux, decide that sustainability needed to include people, not just the environment?

Natalie MacLean
Jun24th

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Introduction

Why did the Bordeaux wine Mouton Cadet decide that sustainability needed to include people, not just the environment? Why is the Fair for Life certification that’s focused on people, community, and respect the environment a perfect fit for Mouton Cadet? What does it mean to create trust with more than 100 grape growers that lasts for generations?

In this episode of the Unreserved Wine Talk podcast, I’m chatting with Véronique Hombroekx, the Managing Director for the Mouton Cadet Brand and Jérôme Aguirre, Director, Mouton Cadet Wines, about their Fair for Life program.

You can find the wines we discussed here.

 

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Highlights

  • What made Veronique believe fair trade principles could work for a Bordeaux wine brand on the scale of Mouton Cadet?
  • Why did a small Fair for Life label on another Bordeaux wine inspire a major change at Mouton Cadet?
  • What was missing from Mouton Cadet’s sustainability strategy before Fair for Life was introduced?
  • Why did Mouton Cadet choose its flagship Rouge to carry the Fair for Life certification?
  • What does it actually mean for more than 100 independent winegrowers to be part of the “Mouton Cadet family”?
  • How do long-term contracts and above-market pricing help growers plan for the future?
  • What happens during a typical vineyard visit between Mouton Cadet’s technical team and its growers?
  • How is technology helping growers make better decisions while reducing their reliance on pesticides?
  • Why do the growers themselves decide how the Fair for Life development fund is invested?
  • How are growers using shared data and cost-management tools to improve their businesses?
  • Why has climate adaptation become one of the most urgent challenges facing Bordeaux winegrowers?
  • How can supporting growers beyond the vineyard ultimately lead to better wine in the bottle?

 

Key Takeaways

  • Why did the Bordeaux wine Mouton Cadet decide that sustainability needed to include people, not just the environment?
    • For many years we have been committed on the environmental side but we felt that sustainability could not stop here. So what was missing was the social dimension and that’s exactly where Fair for Life came in as a continuation of what we had already built with our wine growers over the time. Long-term contracts, fair pricing, very close day to day support and last, but not least, a development fund dedicated to the wine grower community, financed by 1% of the sales of our Mouton Cadet Rouge. The certification allowed us to take that one step further in a much more structured and visible way to illustrate the development fund, give our wine grower community the means to invest collectively in projects that really addressed their future, their concrete challenges from climate adaptation to knowledge transmission.
  • Why is the Fair for Life certification that’s focused on people, community, and respect the environment a perfect fit for Mouton Cadet?
    • V: I was very curious to understand what stands behind that label. And when it became clear to me that this was exactly the kind of label that could express what we truly wanted for Mouton Cadet then we said, okay, let’s go for it. Because it was all about respect for people, respect for terroir, but with a strong ethical approach, working together, building something collectively. And this is the reason why I thought that this could make Mouton Cadet a genuine human journey, a community of wine growers behind every bottle, treated with respect and care. And that was, for me a kind of revelation saying, “Yes. This is what we do and this is where we want to go as well.”
  • What does it mean to create trust with more than 100 grape growers that lasts for generations?
    • Family is not just a word for us. It’s something very concrete, by the way, when we work together for such a long time. Some of them are part of the family for more than than ten years. So we know each other, we know their family, they know us. So there is a very close relationship between our technical team and then but also it’s always with such a happiness when I take one day and I go together with Jerome and going to visit them to talk about their vineyards, to talk about where their challenge they are facing. So it’s all about creating interest for each other. It is built on this famous long term relationship, but also because we are not only working together, we are enjoying facing challenges together. We also establish multi-year contracts, fair purchase price above the market average based on real production costs and very close day to day support. Believe me, every day we have them on the phone, technical, administrative, financial support. And you know what? That creates stability and trust into our relationship. This is, I think, the definition of being part of the family. We trust each other.

 

About Mouton Cadet’s Fair for Life Certification

The Fair for Life fair-trade certification scheme officially recognises Mouton Cadet’s commitment and makes them unique in Bordeaux. The aim of this certification is to pursue existing initiatives with their winegrowers in response to a range of challenges: economic (more resilient operating models), environmental (support for the agroecological transition) and social (training, transmission of skills). Each bottle of Mouton Cadet with the Fair for Life label bears witness to the combination of a shared passion and a long-term commitment.

 

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Transcript

Natalie MacLean 00:00:00 Why did the Bordeaux wine Mouton Cadet decide that sustainability needed to include people, not just the environment? Why is the fear for life certification that’s focused on people, community and respect for the environment a perfect fit for Mouton Cadet? And what does it mean to create trust with more than 100 grape growers that lasts for generations? In today’s episode, you’ll hear the stories and tips that answer those questions. In part one of our chat with Veronique Holbrook’s, the managing director for the Mouton Cadet brand, and Jérome Aguirre, director of Mouton Cadet Wines, about their Fair for Life program. By the end of our conversation, you’ll also discover what made Veronique believe that fair trade principles could work for a Bordeaux wine brand. On the scale of Mouton Cadet, why Mouton Cadet chose its flagship rouge rather than a smaller wine to carry the Fair for Life certification. What happens during a typical vineyard visit between Mouton Cadet’s technical team and its growers. How technology is helping growers make better decisions while reducing reliance on pesticides. Why growers themselves decide on how they fare for Life Development Fund is invested.

Natalie MacLean 00:01:15 How growers are using shared data and cost management tools to improve their businesses. Why climate adaptation has become one of the most urgent challenges facing Bordeaux wine growers, and how supporting growers beyond the vineyard can ultimately lead to better wine in the bottle. Welcome to episode 395.

Natalie MacLean 00:01:42 Do you have a thirst to learn about wine? Do you love stories about wonderfully obsessive people, hauntingly beautiful places, and amusingly awkward social situations? Well, that’s the blend here on the Unreserved Wine Talk podcast. I’m your host, Natalie MacLean. And each week I share with you unfiltered conversations with celebrities in the wine world, as well as confessions from my own tipsy journey as I write my third book on this subject. I’m so glad you’re here. Now pass me that bottle, please, and let’s get started.

Natalie MacLean 00:02:24 Pour your drinks calendar this week. June 24th is both National Pralines Day and Cream Tea Day. The Praline Trail runs from 17th century France through Louisiana, where French settlers swapped almonds for pecans and cream. Try pairing a praline with an aged tawny port.

Natalie MacLean 00:02:44 Cream tea, meanwhile, is built around tea, scones, clotted cream and jam, but never cucumber sandwiches. June 25th is National Strawberry Parfait Day. Parfait means perfect in French, which feels right once you’ve blended strawberries and sparkling wine into a slushie. You can also create a strawberry liqueur float. June 26th doubles for Coconut Day and Tropical Cocktails Day. A coconut is technically a drupe, a fruit with a hard pit or stone in the center that holds a single seed surrounded by a fleshy outer layer. Peaches, cherries, plums, and olives are all classic drupes, so coconut is not a nut, and coconut water was a big business long before bottled hydration had a marketing budget. Mix fresh coconut water with white rum. Serve a pina colada in a hollowed out shell. On the tropical cocktail side, a pina colada, a passionfruit spritz, or a rum free tropical punch with lime and ginger are all great toasts. June 27th Stax, three days, National Onion Day, Pineapple Day, and Orange Blossom Day.

Natalie MacLean 00:03:58 Onions have been cultivated for more than 5000 years, so a Gibson Martini with three cocktail onions feels almost historic. You could also roast sweet onions in red wine reduction or build a savory, onion infused vodka cocktail. Pineapple has its own strange history, once such a status symbol in Europe that people rented them for parties. Market with a pineapple spritz, a grilled pineapple margarita or a sparkling pineapple iced tea and orange blossom water has a long history in the Middle Eastern and Mediterranean sweets. Try an orange Blossom Gin Fizz, a citrusy sparkling wine cocktail or a floral orange mocktail. June 28th covers National Tapioca Day and Peru’s Ceviche de tapioca comes from the cassava root native to South America. Add chewy pearls to a spiked bubble tea. Blend them into a rum smoothie or pear tapioca pudding with a sweet late harvest Riesling. Ceviche, meanwhile, has been declared part of Peru’s national cultural heritage. Pour a pisco sour, a crisp white or a lime forward lager alongside the brightest seafood you can find. June 29th is National Waffle Iron Day, marking the first patented waffle iron back in 1869.

Natalie MacLean 00:05:23 Mix champagne into your waffle batter for mimosa waffles. Serve fluffy waffles next to a heavy imperial stout, or press a leftover wine soaked brownie into the iron for something unexpected. June 30th gives you a choice between a mighty listing and a sweeter alternative. My Thai day actually lands in August, so treat June 30th as your practice run. One classic Mai Tai with an aged Jamaican rum. One zero proof Allman line version and a note to do this better come August. The cocktails name translates to out of this world in Tahitian, so it’s worth the wait either way. You’re weird, but wonderful science fact for this week, the human olfactory system can distinguish more than 1 trillion distinct sense. That’s trillion with a T. According to researchers, the reason trained wine tasters can describe a wine as smelling of black cherry pencil, shaving tobacco and wet stone is that the olfactory bulb processes smell differently from how the brain processes sight or sound. Visual and auditory information travels to the cortex for analysis. Smell bypasses the cortex completely and goes straight to the limbic system, the part of the brain that handles emotion and memory.

Natalie MacLean 00:06:48 That’s why a single sniff of a wine can take you somewhere very specific in your past. Your nose is built for time travel and for pleasure. Okay, on with the show. So our next guests are.

Natalie MacLean 00:07:07 Veronique.

Natalie MacLean 00:07:08 Hombres. She is managing director for.

Natalie MacLean 00:07:11 The Mouton Cadet brand, and Jérome.

Natalie MacLean 00:07:13 Aguirre, the director for Mouton Cadet Wines. And they’re both here to talk to us about their wonderful Fair for Life program. They join me now from Bordeaux, France. Veronique. Jérome, welcome. We’re so glad to have you here with us.

Veronique Holbrook 00:07:30 Yeah. Thank you. Good morning everybody. Good morning Natalie.

Natalie MacLean 00:07:35 Okay, that’s the limit of my French, by the way. But let me start with you. Walk me through the moment you realize that the fare for life program could work for a Bordeaux wine brand at Mouton cadets scale.

Veronique Holbrook 00:07:52 Yes, let’s go for that. So I think for. Yeah. For sure. More than a decade we have built a distinctive model of responsible viticulture for Mouton Cadet with our technical team, but also with the network of our wine grower, which was an approach rooted into the value of our family company, Baron Philippe de Rothschild.

Veronique Holbrook 00:08:20 So we made strong environmental commitments, cutting emissions and expanding organic viticulture, but felt one element was missing and that was the human dimension. At the same time, we saw how fair trade label was transforming value chain in other industry like cocoa industry. Coffee industry, textile, cosmetics. And that raised a simple but I think powerful question why shouldn’t wine benefit from the same model? What made this Pfeiffer Life label credible for Mouton was our ecosystem of more than 100 of wine grower partners. We saw that with the right structure, it could become, like I said, a true driver of impact, not just a niche initiative.

Natalie MacLean 00:09:28 That’s great. Yes, proving that a winery of size can do it, that it’s, as you say, not just a niche initiative that a small winery could handle. Just sets the tone for the industry. It’s a real leadership position to take because many people say, oh yes, sure you can with a little winery, but not at scale. But you’ve proven that it is possible.

Natalie MacLean 00:09:48 Now, Veronique, you said that the inspiration came from the noble Gabriel and company. So tell us more about that story.

Veronique Holbrook 00:09:55 Yes, it’s a small vineyard. So it’s a collective approach of Gabriel and Co located in Bordeaux. And it was really by coincidence I first noticed a small Fair for Life label on the label of one of their wine, and it immediately captured our attention and prompted us to explore that. I was very curious to understand what stands behind that label, and when it became clear to me that this was exactly the kind of label that could express what we truly wanted for Mouton. And then we said, okay, let’s go for it, because it was all about respectful people, respect for terroir, but with a long ethical approach. Working together, building something collectively. And the reason why I thought that this could make a genuine human journey. A community of wine grower behind every bottle, treated with respect and care. And that was, for me, a kind of revelation saying, yes, this is what we do and this is where we want to go as well.

Natalie MacLean 00:11:22 And just the massive coordination, though, of 100 different growers, that’s something as opposed to just managing your own smaller winery. Now, Veronica, when you joined Baron Philippe de Rothschild in 2018, was Fair for Life already being discussed or did you bring that initiative with you?

Veronique Holbrook 00:11:39 So at that moment, we were not talking. In 2018, we were not talking about Fair for Life because in the wine industry at that time, nobody was claiming that label. So when I joined in 2018, the company had already a strong commitment behind Mouton Cadet, especially on environmental side, but no label yet brought them together in a visible way. So far for life as a structure, the certification was absolutely not existing. What I brought was, I think, the conviction that sustainability must be holistic, not only environmental, but also social and taking care as well of the economy, and from there then did was shaped collectively with our internal team and partner.

Natalie MacLean 00:12:41 Yeah, the human element is often left out of this, but humans are a big part of the environment.

Natalie MacLean 00:12:46 You’re creating a product for the enjoyment of people, but the actual work conditions of the people creating this wine matter just as much. And it’s great. It’s your vision that brought this to the company. Veronica, how does Fair for Life fit into the larger social responsibility picture for Baron Philippe de Rothschild that already includes organic viticulture? You’ve mentioned the French government’s program called High Environmental Value and the Bordeaux Wine Council’s program. It’s called Bordeaux. Let’s cultivate tomorrow for corporate responsibility.

Veronique Holbrook 00:13:19 Yes. So for us, I think it’s really one single story rather than a series of separate initiative. I think what makes the difference is that we decided to place CSR as our central value. So for many years we have been committed on the environmental side. But we felt that sustainability could not stop here. So what was missing was, as I said, the social dimension. And that’s exactly where Fair for Life came in, not as a disruption, but as a continuation of what we had already built with our wine grower over the time.

Veronique Holbrook 00:14:04 Long term contract, fair pricing, very close day to day support. And last but not least, a development fund dedicated to the wine grower community, financed by 1% of the sales of our Mouton Rouge. So as you can see, the certification allowed us to take that one step further in a much more structural and visible way to illustrate the development fund. Give our wine grower community the means to invest collectively in projects that really addressed their future. Their concrete challenges from climate adaptation to knowledge transmission. So behind all of that, there is a strong conviction. Sustainability becomes serious only if you build a 360 approach. Environmental, social, economic aspects are completely interconnected.

Natalie MacLean 00:15:15 They are, they are. It’s an ecosystem. Just as it takes a healthy ecosystem to grow wine, to grow and make great wine. And you’ve already cut your energy related carbon emissions at the winery by 94.3% since 2007, which is remarkable. We’re going to talk more about that development fund that you mentioned briefly there. But Veronica, why did you select the Mouton Cadet Classic Rouge as the launch product? We’re going to taste this later and not a smaller wine by volume.

Veronique Holbrook 00:15:45 Just because probably, as you said previously, it’s easy to do it on a very small scale. So you can do that for, I don’t know, 50,000 bottles, probably in an easier way. But we choose Mouton Rouge as the ambassador of the label very deliberately. It is our flagship wine, our leading reference worldwide, so it allows us to carry the message at scale. But of course, that doesn’t mean that the rest of the vineyard are not involved. We do it consciously all over the place for all the brands, but we decided to choose Mouton, who’s really to be the ambassador of the Fair for Life label.

Natalie MacLean 00:16:39 Yeah. That’s great. Now, you’ve said that the growers are part of the Mouton cadet family. What does family actually mean when contracts and grape prices are on the table? How are you mixing those concepts of the economics and the family of growers?

Veronique Holbrook 00:16:53 Yeah. So family is not just a word for us. It’s some very concrete, by the way, when we work together for such a long time.

Veronique Holbrook 00:17:05 Some of them are part of the family for more than ten years. So we know each other, we know their family, they know us. So there is a very close relationship between our technical team and them. But also, as I said, it’s always with such a happiness that when I take one day and I go together with Jerome and going to visit them to talk about their vineyards, to talk about where their challenge they are facing. So it’s all about creating interest for each other. It is built on this famous long term relationship, but also because we are not only working together, we are enjoying facing challenges together. We also establish multi-year contracts, fair purchase price above the market average based on real production costs and very close day to day support. Believe me, every day we have them on the phone, technical, administrative, financial support. And you know what? That creates stability, trust into our relationship. And this is, I think, the definition of being part of the family.

Veronique Holbrook 00:18:31 We trust each other. And this is what happened in my family, I trust my family and they trust me. And this is, I think, a true story that we have been able to build with, with our community of wine growers for Mouton Cadet.

Natalie MacLean 00:18:50 Absolutely. And it’s so impressive that 70% of your growers have been with you for nine years or more. That starts to become, over time, generational. Now, Jerome, your team of seven Indologists supports 90 growers across 1200 hectares. What does a typical site visit look like now? I just mentioned the two of you have done site visits. Describe one of those or one that you go on your own. What’s happening?

Jérome Aguirre 00:19:17 First we say hello to the farmer and the road to the vineyard first.

Natalie MacLean 00:19:20 All right. Yes.

Jérome Aguirre 00:19:21 Sir. We are present every day during all the growing season starts during the pruning, until the winemaking. And in each step, we are present for the technical advice. We help them through the monitoring and the now the practice and the target, in fact, is how we can optimize for each farmer, because each farmer is unique.

Jérome Aguirre 00:19:43 The quality and the production to after blend the different personality of from each farmers.

Natalie MacLean 00:19:50 Yeah, that’s quite a bit and all very customized to each vineyard site because they’re all so different. It’s not like you just overlay a template and there you go. Just follow these six instructions and you’re good.

Jérome Aguirre 00:20:02 Yeah.

Natalie MacLean 00:20:04 Yeah, absolutely. It’s plural. It’s big, it’s diverse. And people often don’t realize that when they just see the prestige labels, just the diversity that’s going into every bottle. Jerome, you mentioned an app that shares essential information in real time. Maybe tell us a little bit more about that tool.

Jérome Aguirre 00:20:23 To share key information. In the meantime with our groups. This app are moving to access in technical information is essential in terms of management during the growing season. For example, with this Apple, with this app, we can share in real time meteorological information and to prepare the treatment. Yes or no before the rains. And this is really a comfortable tool for our farmers.

Natalie MacLean 00:20:51 So you’re giving them weather predictions and suggested advice, whether it’s picking or cropping or whatever needs to be done at that time of the season.

Jérome Aguirre 00:21:01 We work with the nature. That’s why we need to have all this information, all this data, to take good decision. Right? Because we are we work with less pesticide. We have a big part of our farmers organic. We need to reduce the risk with this app.

Natalie MacLean 00:21:16 Yeah. You’re really at the mercy of Mother Nature. All crops are but wine in particular. And then if you’re implementing all of these fear for life and sustainability kinds of practices, you really need to be in tune with nature so technology can help with that. Now, Jerome, you created a development fund that Veronica has already mentioned to support the fare for life 1% of net revenue from Fair for Life, labeled Mouton cadet bottles sales pays into the fund and the growers, not the winery decides how the money gets spent. So if I understand correctly, projects are proposed, debated and voted on at the association’s General Assembly. Maybe you could give me an example of a recent project that was voted on and approved by the growers themselves.

Jérome Aguirre 00:22:03 Yes, we have a board, and the one of the first choice was to work about the cost optimization tools. And now we have worked with an accounting firm, and we can have to help our farmers, not only for the technical part, for the economic part to optimize the cost of production. Because, as we explain, in terms of global performance, global management today is really important. Sharing the data is experience about from the community of our farmers. We have developed this bespoke software to help them to optimize the cost of production of our wine. And that’s really important because you need to reduce the risk. You need to optimize in each step of production the cost to be sure that you have good quality, but you optimize the production, your operating costs and your operating expenses.

Natalie MacLean 00:22:56 Yeah. And the growers are sharing their learning. So somebody over in that vineyard is sharing with somebody else that they might.

Jérome Aguirre 00:23:02 Have to share the data. In fact.

Natalie MacLean 00:23:06 That’s terrific. And this development fund, if I understand correctly, it hit $200,000, roughly speaking, €121,000 in 2024, which is huge.

Natalie MacLean 00:23:18 I’m going to deal in dollars here rather than euros for our audience. But the $200,000, how is that allocated and what’s left in reserve currently.

Jérome Aguirre 00:23:29 The four collective projects identified by the community are cost optimized production. But after climate adaptation trials, I think is key too, because it is really important, because the climate is changing, to find the good technical way to have a good quality and quantity production. After we are in Europe and in French, we have a lot of rules about the regulatory support. And after one of the pillar of fire for life is the transmission, all the knowledge about the transmission, we are, as Véronique explained since long time 95 years where reproducing Mouton Cadet. We are looking the future and the transmission is one of our pillars and we need to help our wine grower community to transmit the properties with between the family to see vineyard in the future in Bordeaux.

Natalie MacLean 00:24:18 Yeah, that’s a huge challenge. As the climate changes, you’ve got to keep up with the new techniques. It’s not like, let’s just optimize what we have and then we’ll be good.

Natalie MacLean 00:24:26 It’s every year you’re thinking, okay, Yeah. Conditions or changes. Yeah, absolutely. And so the cost optimization tool was built with an accounting firm. Jerome, how did winegrowers react the first time you showed it to them.

Jérome Aguirre 00:24:43 They’re very interested because it’s a key today. They manage a farm. They manage an enterprise. And today it’s really important to have the good tools to to optimize the cost of production. And I think it’s really an additional value interesting for them. But why in the future? Because we have this risk with the climate. You need to have all the data, all the information to be efficient.

Natalie MacLean 00:25:08 So many factors going into this. So Veronica, what does fair purchase price mean for you. Like how is it calculated? How does it move or change when you’re dealing with your growers?

Veronique Holbrook 00:25:19 For us, it means offering price first of all, price above the market average, but based on real production costs and within a long term contractual relationship. So, as Jerome was explaining, we were analyzing together with them their production cost.

Veronique Holbrook 00:25:44 They could realize some very effective initiative that they could take to be more effective, to have a better overall management cost. And all of this initiative is helping them and helping us together to make sure that the price we give them is the right price and also above the market average. But what is also important is that beyond the price, it’s All also about ensuring economic stability and visibility for the wine grower, which is essential for them to invest to adapt and sustain their activity over the time. Because here again we are talking about transmission. How is the future? Looks like I’m a wine grower. My future counts to me. But what I’m doing today is also important because what I’m doing today will probably drafting my future. And so this interconnection between fair price, but also this holistic approach is making a huge difference.

Natalie MacLean 00:27:18 Yeah, it’s almost like you’re creating the structure for a small family winery that is concerned about generations in the future, but you’re doing it at scale because of the way you’re rewarding and paying your growers.

Natalie MacLean 00:27:31 For instance, I’m sure if they invest in new technology or whatever that affects the growing season in a stronger way, you’re considering that in the price you pay, because they’ve had to invest more than you’ve got to consider all of that in the price that you give them. But whereas they might not make those investments is all they were trying to optimize for was, let’s get the most I can, the most money I can for this crop and whatever happens in the future.

Veronique Holbrook 00:27:58 You know what, Natalie? I think there is also something very important when you are a small company, a family company as small as a wine grower. This person is probably with a lot of expertise in their vineyards, but they are missing some capability. Sure, from an administrative point of view, from a perspective on how to manage in a very effective way. My winery, how do I do that? And they feel very lonely facing this. And with that Fair for Life project. It was a kind of, as I said here again and sorry for repeating myself, but this kind of 360 approach allows us to tackle every single step, from the vineyards to the consumer.

Veronique Holbrook 00:28:56 All the value chain came under analysis, and that was a kind of revelation for the wine grower, but also for us, making people aware of what happened in their vineyards.

Natalie MacLean 00:29:13 Right at.

Jérome Aguirre 00:29:14 The same time is optimizing the quality, because the focus we are helping them to to optimize everything, reducing the risk, you can have a stronger focus to optimize the quality of the wine. And this is the key for our brand tool, because the target two is to optimize the quality of Mouton Cadet.

Natalie MacLean 00:29:31 Sure. So I see how it works both ways. You’ve got a small grower who does not have a finance expertise, didn’t go to business school, no marketing whatever, so they can almost outsource that expertise to you and benefit from that. And also the collegial sense of being able to learn from all of their other growers that are within your community. And then in turn, all of that expertise translates into better quality because they can afford to invest more in the vineyard, create better grapes, and ultimately a better wine.

Natalie MacLean 00:30:05 So it really is very synergistic. The way this is set up, using everyone’s expertise in the best way possible, it’s marvelous. So what’s the projected fund size for 2025? The development fund size once the 2023 vintage ships to France and Canada. Do you have any predictions of.

Jérome Aguirre 00:30:25 What you found to reach around the €260,000? Thanks to the consumers. And it’s good because we can invest to invest more for many different projects. And this is good because we can see the interests of the consumers from our farmers while working with this for life. And I think this is good in a good way. This trajectory is really unique, as explained Véronique in Bordeaux. And I think it’s a good way, in this optimized way for the future.

Natalie MacLean 00:30:55 Absolutely. That sounds marvelous that it’s going to grow to 260,000, no doubt. Also helped by the fact that you are the number one premium selling wine from France. Certainly in our market you really win the category. But that’s great that it all works together like that.

Natalie MacLean 00:31:11 Veronique, why did Canada make the short list alongside France? Of course, for the Fair for Life launch. Why did you want to launch here?

Veronique Holbrook 00:31:19 So first of all, there is a great history between Canada and Mouton Cadet because we start in in Quebec, sorry, in Quebec in 1954 and in Ontario in 1962. So quite a long time ago. So this is already a good reason why. But also I think we discover that it’s a market that is very sensitive to sustainability and very receptive to credible initiatives. And we did also some research. And one consumer over three are willing to pay for wines that have a certification. So there is a kind of sensitivity from a consumer point of view to how the wine is bottles. It’s not only having a good wine, of course you need to have quality is, as I said, is just the first step. But then if you can offer something more and if your consumer is willing to pay for it because then they feel part of the story.

Natalie MacLean 00:32:33 Absolutely.

Natalie MacLean 00:32:34 And so when did it officially launch in Canada? We’ve got the bottle here. I see the fare for life. So how long has this been in the market now?

Veronique Holbrook 00:32:42 By I think it was December 24th. I need to go back on my memory on this one. I think it was December.

Jérome Aguirre 00:32:49 Yeah, it was a vintage 22 on December 24th. Yeah.

Veronique Holbrook 00:32:53 Yes. Okay.

Natalie MacLean 00:32:53 Okay.

Veronique Holbrook 00:32:54 So it’s been a nice catch 22. This is for sure. Right. Well that was December 24th okay.

Natalie MacLean 00:33:01 Great. So it’s been here a little bit but not long. So Veronica by December 31st, 2024, 1.5 million bottles had sold with the Fair for Life, with 20% of them in Canada, which is phenomenal. What does that 20% tell you about Canadian consumers. You’ve mentioned some interesting statistics. 1 in 3 really cares about the sustainability message and is willing to pay for it. Is there anything else that comes to mind? Other than we have good taste? Of course.

Veronique Holbrook 00:33:32 No. And this is as I said, this is the first step.

Veronique Holbrook 00:33:34 This is the price to play. If you don’t have quality, I think you can have all the label you want. But if quality is not there, then you will not buy again. So that’s the first way to address your consumer needs. But I think it just confirms that the approach resonates with Canadian consumers. And probably that’s as I said it, it is creating a difference for a day, but it is also taking the consumer into a longer journey. And I think they feel part of the project and this is what I like.

Natalie MacLean 00:34:11 Yeah, absolutely. Absolutely. And Veronica, are you concerned that consumers see the Fair for Life logo on the bottle and assume it’s the exact same as Fair Trade.

Veronique Holbrook 00:34:23 Yes, there is sometimes an initial confusion with fair trades, but for us it’s a real opportunity rather than a concern. Okay, because Fair for Life is specifically designed for sector like wine, and it goes beyond a simple label. It covers the entire value chain from the vineyards to the consumer. But we also have a responsibility to educate consumers.

Veronique Holbrook 00:34:58 So we must explain it clearly. And once they understand it, I think they appreciate the depth and the credibility of the approach even more and feel, as I said, like part of the story.

Natalie MacLean 00:35:16 That’s great. And how are you educating Canadian shoppers on what the orange logo actually stands for? So that’s on the back of the bottle. But we’ll include in the show notes the bottle front and back for those who are listening to us.

Veronique Holbrook 00:35:30 So I think we have been taking a very pragmatic approach. First, the label itself is key. It is visible. It creates a kind of curiosity, but it is really just the starting point. We need to communicate, to educate with clear, simple messaging in store through the QR code on the back label of Mouton Rouge. You have a QR code. If you go through this QR code, you scan it and then you been redirected to a beautiful video, small movie that explain you what Fairfax life is all about. But what we did as well. And that was especially last year and we will redo it this year.

Veronique Holbrook 00:36:17 We had dedicated social media campaign focused on this Fairfax Life label. What we did last year in Canada, which reached around 3 million people. And this is a good way as well, to explain what Fairfax life is all about. And we will redo this campaign again this year. But we also need to convince journalists, opinion leaders like you, that fear for life is not just a gimmick, but a meaningful commitment.

Natalie MacLean 00:36:51 Yes, it’s not greenwashing or just a marketing thing. Yeah, sign me up. I’m convinced. So you’ve done your job here. But it’s. Yeah, it’s an ongoing process. It’s a story to keep telling over and in different ways on different platforms so that you reach different audiences. Yeah, absolutely.

Veronique Holbrook 00:37:07 And we need to get some ambassador as well talking about that initiative. And I think consumer. They have a lot of curiosity and once they are curious, then they are willing to take time to understand. And this is what I like.

Natalie MacLean 00:37:22 Absolutely. Now Veronica, you’ve previously said it is a dark night in Bordeaux because we have too much volume.

Natalie MacLean 00:37:29 Is the sun coming up yet or is it still getting darker. And how does fair life help?

Veronique Holbrook 00:37:34 I will be very honest with you. It is still very challenging with significant overproduction and declining volume. And yes, in that context we need also to reflect. We need to adapt. Bordeaux is traditionally known for complex red wine, but that no longer fully matches what many consumers are seeking. Recent study. We did some study as well with the CVB. This study suggests growing demand for one that are more approachable was softer tannin, more fruitiness, and greater drink ability. White wine are also becoming more appealing to younger consumers because of their freshness and hermetic profile, so we need also to listen. Being humble. Probably Bordeaux need to change, not from from one day to the other, but slowly, surely listening to our consumer and also moving to a quality that is addressing the consumer need. And you know what? Therefore, life will not bring the solution, but is probably also part of the solution.

Veronique Holbrook 00:39:05 It is not because you will drop the price dramatically because you have too much volume, then you need to drop your price to get more volume and to get that volume out to the consumer. No, this is not sustainable. This is taking your quality down. We need to go to the other side. We need to understand what consumers are looking like. And we need to provide to give to the consumer what they desire. And this is a work that we are going through together with Jerome and his team. We listen to the consumer. We take also the climate change into consideration because this is also part of the game. So are we on the dark side or are we seeing the light at the end of the tunnel? I’m quite positive. I’m looking to the light at the end of the tunnel, but we still have a lot of work We need to take this with humility and taking seriously the consideration of the consumer, because this is what counts. He is the one who will drink the wine.

Veronique Holbrook 00:40:22 And with this young generation coming up, and I have young generation in my family as well. They are not looking at the wine like I do. Like you do, like some great connoisseur are doing so. We need to respect that.

Natalie MacLean 00:40:37 Sure. They’re looking for something that’s as they say, is crush or session. But that story, though of fare for life, is still part of that package that the younger generation really values as well. They want authenticity. They want to know where this comes from for any product they buy or consume. So this is, as you say, an important part of the package, the fare for life.

Jérome Aguirre 00:40:58 Yeah, I think the life is an immaterial value for our true. But that’s true for life is interesting because we support curiosity. Humility first, I think because it’s really challenging every year with our working with the farmers to find the best way, with a good cost, everything and the good quality. But we in addition, we have this curiosity and has a very unique explain.

Jérome Aguirre 00:41:23 We want to explore the future. We are working at a high part. We are working the light and we can imagine and you know, in the wine, we need to have many imagination and we can imagine there is a light and we are convinced both with Véronique, but with all the team, there is a light somewhere, and we are in a good way to find this light. You know, I.

Natalie MacLean 00:41:45 Love that metaphor.

Jérome Aguirre 00:41:46 The light fight.

Natalie MacLean 00:41:48 Yeah, the light for vision and leadership and seeing the future. And the light, of course, for the vines themselves. Now, Veronique, with Gabriel and company, you were the first Bordeaux branded wine to put the orange Fair for Life logo on the front label first. What did that decision cost or earn you?

Veronique Holbrook 00:42:06 I think this decision to highlight this fearful life reflects the famous, strong, long term commitment rather than a short term gain. So fearful life is a kind of recognition of the journey that we are going through, because it has required significant investment from adapting agricultural practices to implementing a full audit process, supporting our wine grower in meeting high demand standards, quality standards and with each audit, the level of requirements becomes even more strict, which pushes us but also the entire value chain to continuously improve.

Veronique Holbrook 00:43:02 So we are here talking about continuous improvement through all the value chain. And I really love that label because it is demonstrating the strong commitment we have for the wine grower, for the community, but also for the future. And at the same time, it is strengthening our differentiation in the market. And this is then, for me, a kind of win win situation. This is putting through the DNA of Mouton de. It’s all about sustainability and transparency.

Natalie MacLean 00:43:51 Absolutely. And given the volume issue that you’ve mentioned, you do need to do things that differentiate and are authentic and have a great story. Now, Jérome Bordeaux is pulling up thousands of hectares of vines because of this overproduction, does your model offer a way out for some of the wine growers? Are you looking at that aspect too, or how do you. Does that come into your model at all?

Jérome Aguirre 00:44:15 Yes, it’s a disaster because he’s a part of a story of Bordeaux. To have this vineyard, this fantastic vineyard around the city, but in our case, in our community, no one prompts vines to hit.

Jérome Aguirre 00:44:27 If we pull out some vines, it’s because we have managed the vineyard to limit the risk. Because frost. Because I don’t know a climate problems. Our model is is made to improve the management of the vineyard, and what we want is to work with wine growers. Resilient and variable. This is a key resilient if you are resilient, if you have the capacity for farmers, which is important is produce quality and quantity every year. That’s why we are working with this community to reduce the risk and to optimize the cost and to optimize the quality. But I think we are very resilient. A farmer is much more resilient than many people.

Natalie MacLean 00:45:13 They have to be. My goodness, if you’re dealing with Mother Nature, you just realize that it’s not a business for control freaks. You’re going to have to roll with whatever nature gives you. So 30% of your vineyards now are organic or in conversion to organic. What’s a realistic target for that percentage? Say in five, ten years?

Jérome Aguirre 00:45:36 Today I think that our Aim target is if we can maintain 30%, I think is fine after the key is between our farmers is to exchange good practice and stay by step.

Jérome Aguirre 00:45:51 Our trajectory is no pesticide is to work with mechanical cultivation to have cover crops. And we are improving every year step by step. Perhaps not with a label, but to have a organic community. But this can be a long way because you have the technical part, you have the economic part, you have the transmission part for the properties. And it’s a global view for each property. We have a singular process.

Natalie MacLean 00:46:21 Now, mutual phased out chemical weed killers completely from 2019 onward. What’s replaced them in practice, or is that the cover crops you’re talking about or what’s been the most effective?

Jérome Aguirre 00:46:33 Red clover is beautiful. If you visit red clover now, everything is red and it’s fantastic. It’s beautiful. But after you have all the new technical mechanics, soil cultivation and this is interesting too, and slowly exchanging the good practice and the experience, we are investing with our farmers to improve this part, because our target is when you buy a bottle of Mouton Cadet and you analyze a bottle, you don’t have pesticide inside the water.

Jérome Aguirre 00:47:02 And this is more than unique. And I can say to you, it’s a very unique commitment to have zero pesticide inside the bottle. When you open a bottle of Tonka Day, you don’t have pesticides inside. Like it’s.

Natalie MacLean 00:47:15 Very.

Jérome Aguirre 00:47:15 Impressive. Important?

Natalie MacLean 00:47:17 Absolutely. And now the yeah. The 2023 vintage will carry the Fair for Life label. How does the 2023 wine differ in the glass from 2022?

Jérome Aguirre 00:47:29 The climate is king, but perhaps I think 22 is singing and the 23 is dancing. We are making wine alive and our target is to make vibrant, dynamic and truly wine alive. This is super important and with the team, because we are working with a team and a farmer, we want to catch the fruit during the harvest, to have something really generous and perceive when you smell tasting, when you taste the wine. And always, as Veronique asked me to say, to be elegant drink. Ability. Softness. This is a key because the new consumer doesn’t want to drink an old style Bordeaux with many, many tenants and to dry to this year.

Natalie MacLean 00:48:13 Yeah, that style is changing.

Jérome Aguirre 00:48:15 No.

Natalie MacLean 00:48:15 Oh, yes. Absolutely. All this talk about what does it taste like?

Jérome Aguirre 00:48:20 I’m like you with a bottle.

Natalie MacLean 00:48:24 Yes. So I have the bottle, which I’ve been showing, and we’ll put in the show notes for the logos. But I would love to hear from both of you what you get in the glass. Maybe. Jerome, you want to start? Oh, really?

Jérome Aguirre 00:48:36 First of all, when I’m tasting this wine, I am. I have always a part of emotion because this strong commitment. I’m thinking about our farmers, about the diversity of the territory of Bordeaux. And it’s a lot of work. And after, if you smell this wine, you can see all the expressive of the palette of the Bordeaux with the red fruit, The black fruit, the spicy. It’s attractive. Oh, wow.

Natalie MacLean 00:49:01 That’s beautiful. It’s so alive.

Jérome Aguirre 00:49:04 Yeah. And you have this freshness. You don’t have too much. But you have this freshness.

Natalie MacLean 00:49:10 Oh, yeah.

Natalie MacLean 00:49:10 Makes me want to eat.

Jérome Aguirre 00:49:12 You want to drink again? You need to have this freshness. Yes. We work with different. We have farmers with clay soil, gravel soil, limestone soil. Right. All in during the blending is really interesting because we are working to find the good balance between freshness, texture, structure and drink ability. And I’m sure we only want to drink a glass. Now.

Veronique Holbrook 00:49:35 You know what? I forgot? My glass of wine. So.

Natalie MacLean 00:49:39 Okay, I’m sure you’ve tried this one before though.

Veronique Holbrook 00:49:42 Talking about his experience in a glass. Yes, much better than I can. I could do. And what I love is when he say 22 was dancing and 23 years singing. This is absolutely enjoyable.

Natalie MacLean 00:49:58 This is so good. The wine. Like some people think. What is fresh mean? I get what you’re saying, but it is just so alive. It makes your mouth water. The fruit is not heavy or dry. It’s just joyously ripe. But again, it’s not a fruit bomb.

Natalie MacLean 00:50:14 It’s still got that elegance. And the length goes on and on. So you’ve got a really well-made wine that still, I think, is what people are looking for. Very modern style, very credible, sustainable. It’s all those things. But it also to me says, get me some food because I think this would be marvelous with food. Do you have some food.

Jérome Aguirre 00:50:35 Pairings with cheese? For sure. You know, there’s many pairing, but if you want to, it’s okay. You cannot be pairing with the food, but you can taste this wine. If you want to discuss with your best friend. And to change the world is the perfect bottle to change the world will tell you. Change the world.

Natalie MacLean 00:50:52 Pairs well with plans for world domination or change.

Jérome Aguirre 00:50:56 The world can reimagine everything and everywhere. In any company, no authority.

Natalie MacLean 00:51:02 We know those are great tasting notes. Yes. Yes. Absolutely. It just feels alive. Like, I know these are seemingly abstract terms, but I think you really have to taste it to get what we’re saying if you haven’t before.

Natalie MacLean 00:51:17 But it’s just so lively. Yes, fresh. But it’s got this length on it and it’s just so juicy. It makes you just want to go back to the glass again and again.

Veronique Holbrook 00:51:25 It’s good.

Natalie MacLean 00:51:27 More tasting. No more.

Veronique Holbrook 00:51:31 No, I’m very jealous because I don’t have my glass of wine.

Natalie MacLean 00:51:36 We know you’ve tried it at least a couple times before, Veronica. So we know you know what we’re saying here. But, Veronica, if you had to put one sentence on the back label about what Fair for Life means for Mouton Cadet, what do you think you would say or put.

Veronique Holbrook 00:51:52 Yeah. So I think first of all, Fair for Life is not just to label. I think it’s a philosophy. It’s a way of living. It’s a way of working. It is our commitment to build a more humane Bordeaux, where every decision we make honors the people behind the wine, the land, the cultivate and the future we choose to shape together. It’s a beautiful story, and this is my promise to you.

Veronique Holbrook 00:52:27 This is the mouton de experience.

Natalie MacLean 00:52:29 Oh, wow. Beautifully put. A more human Bordeaux. That’s poetic. I love it. Oh, wow. Okay, I think this is a good place to wrap up, but let me ask you both. Is there anything we haven’t covered that you wanted to mention as we we bring the conversation to a close?

Veronique Holbrook 00:52:48 No, I think it was a nice discussion. So thank you for that. and pleasure. And I think there is a special link between Canada, Canadian people and the Mouton cadet. It’s a long story. Actually, it’s 54, 1954 and 1962.

Natalie MacLean 00:53:06 Absolutely.

Veronique Holbrook 00:53:07 A long story, and my wish is that we can permanently seduce the Canadian consumer, because you always have to question yourself and nothing is granted. So thank you. Thank you for drinking Mouton a day, because you’re making the life of wine growers better and you participate to a beautiful story.

Natalie MacLean 00:53:31 It is our pleasure to drink this. Thank you both for making it. And it’s always great to talk to a producer who is doing things at scale, showing the leadership, showing what can be done in the industry while still staying true to their roots, if you will, and producing a terrific wine that is keeping that human element involved.

Natalie MacLean 00:53:55 So we raise my glass to you both. Cheers. Right, absolutely. So I will say goodbye for now, but the next time has to be in person with this wonderful wine, please.

Veronique Holbrook 00:54:07 In the vineyards you.

Natalie MacLean 00:54:08 Have in.

Veronique Holbrook 00:54:08 The vineyards. Come and visit with us our family of wine growing.

Natalie MacLean 00:54:13 Yes. Oh, that would be wonderful. That would be.

Veronique Holbrook 00:54:15 A great.

Veronique Holbrook 00:54:16 Experience. Absolutely. And we have even more story to tell. But if you leave the story with us, then you’re part of the family.

Natalie MacLean 00:54:24 That sounds great. All right, let’s make plans. Thank you. All right.

Veronique Holbrook 00:54:29 Thank you very much.

Natalie MacLean 00:54:30 Oh. Thank you. Veronique. Sharon, this has been marvelous.

Natalie MacLean 00:54:39 There you have it. I hope you enjoyed our chat with Veronique and Sharon.

Natalie MacLean 00:54:43 Here are my takeaways. Number one, why did Mouton decide that sustainability needed to include people and not just the environment. As Veronique explained, for many years we’ve been committed on the environmental side, but we felt sustainability could not stop there.

Natalie MacLean 00:55:00 So what was missing was the social dimension. And that’s exactly where the fear for life came in, as a continuation of what we had already built with our winegrowers over time. Long term contracts, fair pricing, very close to day to day support, and a development fund dedicated to our wine grower community, financed by 1% of the sales of our Mouton Cadet Rouge. The certification allowed us to take that one step further, in a much more structured and visible way to illustrate the development fund, give our wine grower community the means to invest collectively in projects that really address their future, their concrete challenges, from climate adaptation to knowledge transmission. And I love when Veronique summarized the effort as making a more human Bordeaux? Number two, why is the Fair for Life certification that’s focused on people, community and respect for environment? A perfect fit for Mouton Cadet. Veronique was very curious to understand more about what is behind the fear for life certification on the label, and it became clear to her this was exactly what she wanted to express.

Natalie MacLean 00:56:13 For Mouton Cadet, it was all about respect for people, the terroir, but a strong ethical approach, working together, building collectively. That’s the reason she thought Mouton Cadet could make a genuine human journey with the community of wine growers behind every bottle, treat it with respect and care. It was a revelation for her and saying, this is what we can do and how far we want to go. And number three, what does it mean to create trust with more than 100 grape growers that lasts for generations? Family, she says, is not just a word for us. It’s something very concrete, especially when they work together for such a long time. Most of the growers have been part of the Mouton cadet family for more than a decade. They know each other, and there’s a very close relationship between the Mouton Cadet technical team and the growers. She loves going to the vineyards with Sharon to talk about their the vines and the challenges they’re facing. It’s all about creating interest in each other and building the long term relationships.

Natalie MacLean 00:57:22 So that’s why they use multi-year contracts and purchase prices that are above the market average and are based on real production costs. All of this creates stability and trust in the relationship. And that for her, is the definition of being part of a family. If you missed episode 115, go back and have a listen. I chat with author Jane Anson about her book Inside Bordeaux. I’ll share a short clip with you now to whet your appetite. You’ve also mentioned that 70% of wine in Bordeaux.

Natalie MacLean 00:57:57 Used to be white or sweet. So was it the British.

Natalie MacLean 00:58:02 Influence that caused the flip to the red?

Jane Anson 00:58:05 I love that question. So those 300 years when it was English, it was mainly red. The English basically preferred red wine, drank more red wines. The switch in Bordeaux came after the English left when the Dutch came, because the Dutch have always been much more interested in white wine. But then from 1972 or 3, I switched to red. And today, Bordeaux is 90% red wine. We tend to think of Bordeaux as being such a kind of traditional, unchanging region.

Jane Anson 00:58:32 But then just that one statistic tells you Bordeaux is perfectly capable of changing and adapting to what consumers want.

Natalie MacLean 00:58:39 Oh, that’s a great insight to draw from it. And the fact that they remain outward focused.

Natalie MacLean 00:58:44 With.

Natalie MacLean 00:58:44 An international focus.

Jane Anson 00:58:45 You’re right. That’s a really good point.

Natalie MacLean 00:58:52 Do you know someone who would be interested in learning more about Mouton Cadets leadership with the Fair for Life program? Please let them know about this podcast. Email or text them now while you’re thinking about it. It’s really easy to find the Unreserved Wine Talk podcast. Just tell them to search for that title or my name Natalie MacLean wine on YouTube, Apple Podcasts, Spotify, their favorite podcast app or they can listen to the show on my website at Natalie MacLean podcast. Email me if you have a question, or if you’d like to win one of six drinks books that I have to give away. I’d love to hear your thoughts on this episode, or if you’ve read any of my books. Email me at Natalie at Natalie MacLean dot com.

Natalie MacLean 00:59:38 In the show notes, you’ll find a link to dig a free online food and wine pairing class with me called the Five wine and food pairing Mistakes that can ruin your dinner and how to fix them forever at Natalie MacLean. Com. And that’s all in the show notes at Natalie MacLean 95. Thank you for taking the time to join me here. I hope something great is in your glass this week. Perhaps Mouton de Rouge, which is both Fair for Life and a terrific wine.

Natalie MacLean 01:00:13 You don’t want to miss one juicy episode of this podcast, especially the secret full bodied bonus episodes that I don’t announce on social media. So subscribe for free now at Natalie MacLean dot com. Meet me here next week. Cheers!

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