How is Niagara-on-the-Lake’s On Seven Winery Making Montrachet-Style Chardonnay? with Ann Sperling and Peter Gamble

Natalie MacLean
Jun18th

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Introduction

What were the key challenges and breakthroughs that shaped the BC and Ontario wine industries in the 1980s and 90s? What makes or breaks a new wine project, and why is finding the right vineyard often the most time-consuming step? What made Peter believe that Niagara-on-the-Lake could produce exceptional Chardonnay?

In this episode of the Unreserved Wine Talk podcast, I’m chatting with Ann Sperling & Peter Gamble.

You can find the wines we discussed here.

 

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Highlights

  • What was Ann’s best memory from growing up on the farm?
  • When did Ann and Peter know that they wanted to work in the wine industry?
  • How did Ann and Peter meet?
  • What was the first bottle of wine Ann and Peter shared?
  • How do Ann and Peter navigate their interwoven personal and professional lives?
  • How do they negotiate professional disagreements, and who chooses the wine for dinner?
  • What were the major challenges and opportunities in the BC and Ontario wine industry in the 1980s and 90s?
  • In the early days, how did Peter envision the future of Ontario wines?
  • What are some of the reasons certain vintages almost didn’t make it into the bottle?
  • What do you look for when considering a new project?
  • What makes Ann and Peter different from the stereotypical flying winemakers?
  • What were the signs that Niagara-on-the-Lake could produce exceptional Chardonnay?
  • How has working on a small, focused vineyard impacted Ann and Peter’s winemaking choices?
  • Why must you suffer to make top-notch wines?

 

Key Takeaways

  • What were the key challenges and breakthroughs that shaped the BC and Ontario wine industries in the 1980s and 90s?
    • As Ann and Peter explain, at the time, the industry was pretty small. So it was in the early 80s in BC and maybe slightly before that in Ontario, that estate wineries became a thing. Prior to that, that meant there were a few really large wineries, not really making estate or single vineyards. Vineyards were a source of bulk wine for the most part. And a few pioneers in each province kind of broke that threshold. And then more people who had been growers for many years who were just kind of itching to be able to make their own wines, started to produce wine. A lot of those projects were family operations. And as those wineries grew, more opportunities opened up.
  • What makes or breaks a new wine project, and why is finding the right vineyard often the most time-consuming step?
    • They observe that it depends a lot on the project. For example, in Argentina, we want to do something really top end, and it doesn’t need to be big and be commercial. It needs to be a little more than a hobby, but it doesn’t need to be a big proposition. The hunt for the vineyard became a very important one. We looked at over 230 vineyards before we found one. I think everyone there was on the verge of giving up on this, thinking “Well, they’re not really going to buy anything.” Because we’d get it to a certain stage, then we do soil analysis, and we weren’t quite happy, or we talked to people who had made wine from the vineyard or something would come up, and we just wouldn’t quite be where we wanted to be with the quality of the vineyard.
  • What made Peter believe that Niagara-on-the-Lake could produce exceptional Chardonnay?
    • I often work on the basis of paradigms, where I’ll take a look at a wine sold throughout the world and say, you know, I think this could be done really well in this area. You know what it is you might be able to accomplish within the parameters that you have – the obvious things, the terroir, the exposures to soils, the temperatures in general. In looking at On Seven, I knew an area that was between Stratus, which I’d worked on, between the Lailey Vineyard, and knew roughly how much warmer we were than other projects that I’d worked on. We had Vittorio wanting very much to do Pinot Noir and Chardonnay as the classic varieties. I saw that as an opportunity to expand what we were doing with Chardonnay and Pinot Noir in Niagara. To go a different direction on the bench. And to think of it, the bench as being cooler, north facing slope, thinner soils, heavy limestone background, and things closer to maybe Chablis in style, for example, or a lighter Côte de Beaune. I saw an opportunity to take the extra warmth of Niagara on the Lake, and Four Mile away from the influences of the lake and of the river, and to do something with a little more richness, a little more intensity with a very specific target, namely, a bigger, broader, you Montrachet-like stylistically.

 

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About Ann Sperling & Peter Gamble

Often referred to as the “power couple” of the Canadian wine industry, Peter Gamble and Ann Sperling have long pursued the pinnacles of wine quality in Canadian vineyards and wineries. Following her upbringing on her family’s Okanagan Valley vineyard, Ann turned to the soil for the character and complexity of her wines. Acknowledged as a Canadian pioneer of organic and biodynamic viticulture, ‘terroir’ was at the centre of her philosophy and she is renowned for her head winemaking roles at Malivoire, Southbrook, and Sperling Vineyards. Peter, a lifetime wine industry professional, has worked alongside Canada’s most passionate winemakers to achieve greater heights with our finest appellation wines. Since 2000, Peter has provided expertise in ultra-premium winemaking operations, including: Stratus, Ravine, Benjamin Bridge and Lightfoot & Wolfville. With the purchase of a top-flight ancient Malbec planting in Mendoza, Argentina, in 2008, Ann and Peter broadened their winemaking activities, but Niagara remains their cherished home base. Current focus is on these Niagara projects: On Seven, Lailey and Stonebridge Vineyards and Dobbin Estate.

 

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Transcript

Natalie MacLean 00:00:01 What were the key challenges and breakthroughs that shaped the BC and Ontario wine industries in the 1980s and 90s? What makes or breaks a new wine vineyard project, and why is finding the right vineyard often the most time consuming step? What made Peter Gamble and Anne Sperling believe that Niagara on the Lake could produce exceptional Chardonnay? In today’s episode, you’ll hear the stories and tips that answer those questions in our chat with Anne Sperling and Peter Gamble, considered the rock star winemakers of Canada. By the end of the conversation, you’ll also discover and best memory from growing up on a family farm. When Anne and Peter knew they wanted to work in the wine industry and how they met, the first bottle of wine that Anne and Peter shared how Anne and Peter navigate their interwoven personal and professional lives. How they negotiate professional disagreements. And more importantly, who chooses the wine for dinner? How Peter envisioned the future of Ontario wines in the early days. The reasons why certain vintages almost don’t make it into a bottle. What makes an importer different from the stereotypical flying winemakers? The signs that Niagara on the Lake could produce exceptional Chardonnay.

Natalie MacLean 00:01:27 How working on small, focused vineyards has impacted and and Peter’s winemaking choices, and why you must suffer to make top notch wines. Do you have a thirst to learn about wine? Do you love stories about wonderfully obsessive people, hauntingly beautiful places, and amusingly awkward social situations? Well, that’s the blend here on the Unreserved Wine Talk podcast. I’m your host, Natalie MacLean. And each week I share with you unfiltered conversations with celebrities in the wine world, as well as confessions from my own tipsy journey as I write my third book on this subject. I’m so glad you’re here. Now pass me that bottle, please, and let’s get started. Welcome to episode 342. So we’re continuing in the lead up to Canada Day, and I wanted to share another segment with you that we did on CTV’s The Social. We highlighted some family owned vineyards from across the country. But first, I gave some context. There are four major regions in Canada that produce wines made from grapes. British Columbia, Ontario, Quebec and Nova Scotia.

Natalie MacLean 00:02:52 Ontario makes about 63% of the wine. B.C. 33%. And 2% for each of Quebec and Nova Scotia, with more than 700 wineries from coast to coast and 1800 grape growers. Every bottle of 100% Canadian wine made from all Canadian grapes contributes $90 to the national economy, versus just $16 for an imported bottle. Pride of place grounds them all. Often, the land on which their vineyards are planted is owned by the family, and in some cases for several generations. And I should also add that they acknowledge that they farm on the traditional territories of our indigenous nations, being deeply connected to the soil that makes your wine, especially when your name is on the bottle, is a very different mindset from wines conceived in a focus group and made by blending grapes that may be hundreds or thousands of kilometers or miles apart. Without that connection. Family owned wineries are often driven more by legacy than by the bottom line. Of course, they need to be profitable to stay in business, but they also want to create something that they can hand down to future generations.

Natalie MacLean 00:04:08 These wineries will ship these wines and others they produce across the country right to your doorstep. So there’s never been a better time or an easier way to support our homegrown farmers from coast to coast on July 1st and throughout the summer.

So we’re starting on the East Coast with Lightfoot & Wolfville, a winery owned by the Lightfoot family who have been farming in Nova Scotia’s Annapolis Valley for eight generations. They originally came from northern England, where their forebears worked as messengers, thus the name Lightfoot. The winery is nestled in Wolfville, in the heart of the Annapolis Valley – and the second part of their name. The Annapolis Valley is a long, narrow valley between two mountain ranges along the shores of the Bay of Fundy. The world’s highest tides create an ideal growing environment for these cool-climate wines. This family practises regenerative agriculture to protect their soils for future generations, and has earned several organic and biodynamic certifications. We kick off our wine tasting with their bubbly, The Blomidon Blonde Extra Brut Sparkling, made using the traditional Champagne method from 100% Chardonnay grapes.

Natalie MacLean 00:05:26 It offers toasty aromas with fresh peach and apple notes. This would be perfect with a fresh Nova Scotia lobster roll.

Next, we’re heading to Quebec to Côteau Rougemont Winery. The Robert family has been rooted in Rougemont, in Quebec’s Eastern Townships, for decades. In 2007, Claude Robert and his adult children – Michel, Julie, and Isabelle – bought a large orchard and planted vines there. They also make cider, fulfilling the dream of Claude’s father, Rosario, who would drive his apple truck to the top of the hill to admire the view. He dreamed one day of owning this orchard – what is now also a vineyard. The family also likes to say that the apple doesn’t fall far from the tree.

We’re tasting their Chardonnay, which is planted on the family’s south-facing slopes that help ripen the grapes to luscious richness. The aromas of freshly baked bread, green apples, and toasted almond fill the glass. In the early days, before they could afford to hire help, each family member took turns monitoring the fermentation day and night. They continue that attention to detail.

Natalie MacLean 00:06:36 Now we’re headed to Ontario. In 1927, 24-year-old Andrew Peller arrived in Canada from Hungary with just $5 and a dream to make European-style wines in Canada. Twenty-four years later, after working in the wine industry and saving his money, he planted his first vineyard in B.C. in 1951 – at just 58 years old. While many people would be relishing retirement plans, the success of the vineyard drove his pioneering spirit to plant more vines, both in B.C. and in Ontario.

In 1966, his son Joe – then chief of medicine for the Hamilton Civic Hospitals – left his career to join his father in the family business. By 1989, John became the third generation to run the successful family-owned group of wineries that includes Peller Estates, Wayne Gretzky Estates, Trius, and Thirty Bench, among others, maintaining a style still inspired by that original dream.

We’re tasting the Peller Family Private Reserve Rosé, with fresh aromas of field strawberries and crisp, refreshing acidity.

Our second stop in Ontario is Drea’s Wine Company.

Natalie MacLean 00:07:52 Andrea Kaiser, the daughter of Karl Kaiser – winemaker and co-founder of Inniskillin Wines, the pioneer of modern Canadian winemaking – was inspired by her father to create Drea’s Wine Company, which produces small-batch wines from Niagara. Her first wine, Drea’s Sauvignon Blanc, was released in 2019 as a tribute to her dad and her family, who affectionately call her “Drea.” Each vintage, Andrea’s father would make her and her mother a special batch of Sauvignon Blanc in his home cellar. The aromas and flavours are bright and fresh with classic gooseberry notes. The 2017 Sauvignon Blanc received a commendation at the prestigious International Wine Challenge in London, England.

Now we’ll head out to British Columbia. The View Winery is on a parcel of land in Kelowna that has been in the Turton Ward family for five generations. Historically, fresh market apples were grown on the property in the mid 1990s. They transitioned to vineyards and cider apples. The beloved old packing house, built by Great Granddad Ward in 1922, was transformed into a winery and cidery. Jennifer Turton has been president of the Vue Winery since 2006.

Natalie MacLean 00:09:13 Christy French is the winemaker. We’re tasting Silver Lining White, an artful blend of cool climate grapes. The back label features uplifting quotes such as A diamond is a piece of coal that handles stress incredibly well. It offers vibrant aromas of lime and lemon zest.

Our final winery is Hester Creek. The original vineyard on the Okanagan Golden Mile was planted in 1968 by Jo Bernardo, a B.C. wine pioneer. The winery is named after the creek that borders the south side of the land. Kurt Garland bought the vineyard in May 2004. He was born and raised in Prince George, and has continuously improved the site over the past 17 years, with new plantings and a state of the art winery. We’re ending our tasting with a red wine called The Judge. It was named more than a decade ago when the winemaker judged the best barrels for a premium Bordeaux style wine that’s won international awards. It’s a robust red blend of hand-picked Merlot, Cabernet Franc and Cabernet Sauvignon, and it offers heady aromas of dark fruit, mocha smoke and toasty oak.

Natalie MacLean 00:10:29 And where can we find you in these wines online? Well, on Instagram. I’m at Natalie MacLean. Wine online Natalie MacLean. Com. Before we dive into today’s episode, I’m pleased to announce that Sashi Prakash, a sommelier in Scotland, has won a copy of the award winning book vines in a Cold Climate, about English wines by Henry Jeffreys. So now I have just one copy left to give away. I also have three copies of the hilarious book I bought it, so I’ll drink it and two copies of the memoir. Grape expectations A Family’s Vineyard Adventure in France. If you’d like to win a copy, please email me and let me know you’d like to win. It doesn’t matter where you live. I’ll choose six winners randomly from those who contact me at Nathalie at Natalie MacLean. Com. Get one of these books for your summer reading or to give us a gift. In other bookish news, if you’re reading the paperback or e-book or listening to the audiobook of my memoir wine, which on fire, rising from the ashes of divorce, defamation and drinking too Much.

Natalie MacLean 00:11:34 A national bestseller and one of Amazon’s best books of the year. I’d love to hear from you at Natalie at Natalie MacLean dot com. I’d be happy to send you a beautifully designed, personally signed book plates for the copies you buy or give as gifts. I’ll put a link in the show notes to all retailers worldwide at Natalie MacLean 342. The paperback usually arrives within a day or two of ordering. The e-book and audiobook are instantly available. Okay, on with the show. Although they’re often referred to as the power couple of the Canadian wine industry, I think that’s a gross understatement. No two people, in my opinion, individually or together, have made a greater contribution to the Canadian wine industry from the quality of production of our wines here in Canada to getting them worldwide Wide acclaim. Then have Peter Gamble and Ann Sperling, who are partners in life and professionally and grew up helping on her family’s Okanagan Valley vineyard, Sperling Vineyards, eventually establishing a winery with two generations of family members. She has also been the head winemaker at the top notch Canadian wineries Cellar Creek and Claudette Soleil, and the Niagara wineries Malabar and South Brook.

Natalie MacLean 00:12:54 They’re all amazing. Not only is she a pioneer in Canadian organic and biodynamic viticulture, but she has also created the world’s first appellation for orange wines before they became trendy. Peter is the founding director of the Vintners Quality Alliance. VQA something you might see on Canadian wine bottles. Ontario’s and Canada’s appellation system. Or at least we’ll get into it. Peter, before I try to qualify what all this is Ontario’s appellation system to guarantee the authenticity and to raise the quality of the country’s wines. He has also worked with Canada’s most passionate winery owners to establish their winery projects and fulfill their vineyard and winery dreams. And he continues to work with passionate winemakers across the country, including Stratus Ravine, Benjamin Bridge and Lightfoot in Wolfville. Now, when Anne and Peter bought Vasto, an Argentine vineyard with top flight ancient Malbec vines in Mendoza, they broaden their scope internationally. But Niagara remains their home base with their current projects on seven Lily Stonebridge Vineyards in Dobbin Estates. And just to clarify, the ones I mentioned previously were previous projects.

Natalie MacLean 00:14:03 All right. They join us now from their home in Niagara. And, Peter, I’m so glad you’re here with us. So let’s dive right in because we have got so much to talk about and lots to taste. So your great grandparents planted grapes in B.C. in the 1880s. And growing up, I remember we did a previous interview where you told me you had almost every miniature version of a farm tool, child’s version, like a child sized hoe and that sort of thing. What was your most memorable memory of growing up on the farm, and sort of what got you into knowing that you wanted to make wine?

Ann Sperling 00:14:35 Well, thinking about that, there’s a couple of things that stick with me. And one of them is that I remember very young being in the vineyard, you know, in the summertime, walking in bare feet and noticing the texture of the different soils in the vineyard and that sort of that really stuck with me and, you know, noticed other things around it, but it was more of like the the differences that the soils presented and textures and all of that.

Ann Sperling 00:15:06 And then but really, I think the thing that helped me make a decision, you know, professionally about winemaking was after we planted Riesling, which was in 1978, that winemakers came to visit. They’d come to meet with my dad and to go in the vines and talk about, you know, winemaking. Talk about grape growing, how it related to winemaking. And before that, really as a grower and growing hybrids and, you know, other non vinifera varieties, they were pretty much you were on your own. Suddenly it was like there’s something really special about these grapes and that wow, I could be translating what happens in the vineyard into wine. And I thought that was a pretty exciting opportunity. And of course, the industry was opening up at that time as well.

Natalie MacLean 00:15:55 How old were you when you decided?

Ann Sperling 00:15:58 About 15. Yeah. Wow.

Natalie MacLean 00:16:01 Yeah. That’s amazing. Yeah. I love that image of running through the the grasses and the soils.

Ann Sperling 00:16:06 I was probably about five when that happened.

Natalie MacLean 00:16:09 Okay.

Ann Sperling 00:16:10 You know, ten years later, thinking that winemaking was sort of cool.

Natalie MacLean 00:16:15 Yeah, yeah. And I can imagine that takes you toward organic and biodynamic viticulture, which you’ll get into in that you know you’re deeply affected by. You’re truly exposed to your own soils and whatever’s planted in the vineyard rose. But I guess you don’t do barefoot these days, though, right?

Ann Sperling 00:16:32 Not that often, but I actually have to admit that I love walking around, whether it’s the house or the yard or wherever I get the chance. I prefer to be barefoot than with socks and shoes on.

Natalie MacLean 00:16:45 Keeping it natural. That’s great. And Peter, when did you decide to get in the wine industry? Was it when you were growing up like an or was it later in your career? You started at Hildebrand, which I think later became trips in 1983, maybe. Was there a memorable moment that sticks out for you in terms of drawing you into wine?

Peter Gamble 00:17:03 Yeah, I think the initial thing that really attracted me to the industry and it’s broader than that.

Peter Gamble 00:17:07 It’s maybe wine and spirits too, and it’s an aromatic thing. I grew up next to a pear orchard so that aromatic and Bartlett pears. Pearson is a certain time of year when it’s just a really, really, you know, enveloping, kind of aromatic and and I always totally loved it. And I ran into early in university, I think the first time a poor William out of, out of Switzerland that just nailed that aromatic. And I thought, how do you get that into a, you know, into a bottle that smell that I was, you know, so associated with in my youth.

Natalie MacLean 00:17:36 Is that a fortified wine made from pears? Just to clarify.

Peter Gamble 00:17:40 It’s a full out eau de vie. So it’s 40% alcohol and you had to sort of discount the alcoholic aromatic because of course it was there. But underneath was this purity of pear and had that incredible aroma. So that really began it, I think a bit more an appreciation of the nose specifically. And then very quickly got into wine and got reading it in university.

Peter Gamble 00:17:58 And by my second year in university, I think I read pretty much everything. Accident on wine at the time really went into it deeply decided I’d rather do that than law, and then spent the next couple of years figuring out how to make it into a business. So that was really my start. Yeah.

Natalie MacLean 00:18:13 Wow. That’s great. I love that. Again, you came to it through your senses like an.

Peter Gamble 00:18:18 Yeah I did. I had the fortune in university to of. There were only two product consultants at the Lcbo. Believe it or not at that time. Now I think there’s something like 150. One of them happened to be in Peterborough, where I was at school at Trent. So early in that process, and I think probably still in my freshman year, I ran into him. We’d talk about wine. We seemed like the only two people in the world with an interest in wine at the time. And anyhow, he pointed out to me that every second week he had to go to the Lcbo with the other consultant in downtown Toronto and do the tastings.

Peter Gamble 00:18:47 So for the next four years, I made sure that I had no classes on Tuesday mornings and went and did the tastings all the time at the Lcbo. So we tasted, you know, the main Roman verticals and a lot of awful stuff too, but a lot of really great wines. So it was a good education.

Natalie MacLean 00:19:02 Yeah, I guess, and classes on Tuesday afternoon must have been a little tough. But yeah. Yeah that’s great. Oh my goodness. So how did you guys meet? Where when does a picture of where you were.

Ann Sperling 00:19:15 Well, we actually met in person in, Bordeaux at the biggest wine show in the world at the time, the wine Expo. We were there for the Canadian contingent. You know, I was still in British Columbia at the time. So we were we had a Wines of Canada booth, and that was kind of like the first time we actually met. So it’s not like we didn’t know about each other because of the industry, but that’s when we met in person.

Natalie MacLean 00:19:44 It reminds me of my parents. They’re both Cape Breton, but they had to go to Toronto to actually meet and then they moved back. But so you’re both representing your regions in Bordeaux. What was the first bottle of wine you shared?

Peter Gamble 00:19:56 Oh, 82 Talbot, actually. Ooh.

Natalie MacLean 00:19:59 Nice. Bordeaux. So top notch. Bordeaux.

Peter Gamble 00:20:01 A little bit of age at the time. That was at a group dinner with a larger group of Canadians outside in. In Bordeaux. In the old town. So that was a shared bottle amongst the group of us. But that was certainly the first one we had together.

Natalie MacLean 00:20:14 That sounds memorable. As a married couple, how do you navigate weaving your personal and professional lives? I mean, you’re both passionate about wines. You have lots to talk about, but I mean, what are the challenges or upsides? Pros, cons?

Ann Sperling 00:20:28 Well, I think, you know, it’s evolved over time, of course. But when we first got together and had children and, you know, had a lot of balls in the air, we could actually kind of coordinate our schedules.

Ann Sperling 00:20:41 And, you know, when I had to work overtime during harvest, Peter could adjust his schedule to be home and things like that. And, and I would say we had a really good understanding of, you know, the other person’s world because we have or had lived it, you know, various times. And so the commitments that we were making, we could do them kind of together because we could work as a team. We pretty much carried that on where we have. You know, on projects and things like that. There’s like a lead person and the other one can support, depending on whether it’s a skill set or just backup or, you know, things like that. So it’s actually worked pretty well and we’re not really competing. Right. Because, you know, if if Peters wins, wins an award or gets some recognition, it’s like, yeah, this is great. You know, it’s good for it’s good for us. It’s good for the industry. And so, you know, we just kind of celebrate each other’s achievements rather than feeling somehow, you know, slighted by the success of the other one.

Natalie MacLean 00:21:45 Yeah, it’s obviously worked out because you’re still together and, to generalize at a very high level, maybe inaccurately. And are you more in the vineyard and Peters in the winery?

Ann Sperling 00:21:56 Yes and no. Peter is very much a concept and research person. you know, when he talked about his, you know, getting into wine or when there’s a subject that he’s interested in, he spends a ton of time on it. I can make my decisions more quickly, I’ll say, but certainly appreciate the depth of information that Peter finds for us. But yeah, often it’s that division. But Peter’s also more of the concept person. And, you know, when it comes to winery projects, how the whole project is going to roll out certainly falls into his lap. And I’ll say mine on the execution side is a lot of what I do.

Natalie MacLean 00:22:42 Now, Peter, you’re trained as a lawyer, at least at the beginning. So lawyers are professional argues. How do you negotiate disagreements? Professional disagreements? We won’t get into the other stuff in your professional lives together.

Peter Gamble 00:22:55 I think a lot of times the decisions are made based on passion. So I’ll get interested in the project because it’s an opportunity to do such and such. You know, like Nova Scotia is a really great example. And so when I began in Nova Scotia and, and pretty much at that time would have been spending a lot of her time at South Brook and busy within the context of her current jobs at that time and even Malabar, part of that in the very early days of Nova Scotia. And so it was one where, you know, I had a wine winery owner approached me about to be winery owner, approached me and say, can we do something fabulous here? Like, I really want to do something great, I’m a maritime or I’m a proud maritime. I really, really want to make great wine in the maritime, and I want it to be something that’s absolutely world class. Can we do it? You know, I love that kind of approach. You know, so I spent 2 to 3 months.

Peter Gamble 00:23:42 I spent a bit of time out there already within the context of the VQA operations, trying to talk them into coming into VQA in early days and, and things like that. So I knew a lot of the players was familiar with the wine, but hadn’t really given a lot of thought to, you know, what could you do here that could be great given the context of the soils and the climate and terroirs and exposures, etc.. And so I had a chance to look at that in a great amount of detail and essentially came back and said as an example of that kind of thing, that, you know, there are probably 500 to 1000 great wines in the world and here to make great wines, really, there’s probably a run at three and, you know, one sort of a high acid fresh rosé approach. One is a, you know, bright, high acid white approach for longevity. And another one is classic sparkling and classic sparkling, I think, is the real potential strength we’d have to keep Chardonnay, Pinot Noir and Pinot Meunier alive, but really good opportunity.

Peter Gamble 00:24:35 So again, that conceptual kind of look at it and Jeremy McConnell was those aren’t necessarily my favorite wines, but if that’s what we can do best, let’s take a run at it. And if in three years you decide that we can’t make great wines, that we’ll just abort because I don’t want to make anything normal.

Natalie MacLean 00:24:49 And this was at Benjamin Bridge.

Peter Gamble 00:24:51 That’s a Benjamin Bridge. Exactly. That kind of thing. That conceptual kind of start. What do we do? What do we plant? How do we keep it alive? What do we do in a business plan that can allow us to put sparkling wine down for ten years and make great sparkling wine, but still have some money in the interim, which is where Nova seven came from. And a plan to do a wine stylistically that I thought, you know, suited the region. And so, you know, that’s a good indication of the kind of things, you know, we like to do together.

Natalie MacLean 00:25:17 Right? Lead with your passion. So then on a very practical level, who chooses the wine for dinner?

Natalie MacLean 00:25:26 You know.

Peter Gamble 00:25:26 I do that. So we have a big cellar. So we have the advantage of sort of the food is chosen first and sort of decides what she wants to do. That’s very much her thing. She’s, you know, she’ll be really feeling like something that night. And so all then match from the cellar. But I know her palate. I know my palate. So often the selections are, you know, the things that she would likely have chosen in any case. Maybe often.

Natalie MacLean 00:25:53 Are you quite in total agreement, Ander?

Ann Sperling 00:25:57 Oh, yeah. I use cooking as my transition from the day to the evening. And so I love to be just immersed in preparing food and and working with the flavors and aromas and everything that’s happening in the kitchen. And that’s really my winding down point. So I’m happy that he wants to choose the wine.

Natalie MacLean 00:26:19 Do your taste differ in any aspect when it comes to wine? Like, I know you must converge because the styles of wines you produce, you know there is a signature there, but an are you more, I don’t know, Pinot Noir or Peter.

Natalie MacLean 00:26:32 Are you more Riesling or not?

Ann Sperling 00:26:34 So much varietal, but certainly we come at it from a different direction. I feel like my tasting is more like a sensory reaction and then kind of putting it together, whereas I think Peter comes it from a more cerebral side, right out of the gates. But when it comes to like wines that we enjoy over dinner, like because we have the depth of a cellar, we also have aged wines. And so Peter’s probably enjoying them with a bit more age than me. But, you know, maybe like a five years difference on, you know, something, say between 20 to 25 years somewhere in that range.

Natalie MacLean 00:27:15 Okay. Seems you can get along on that front too. So that’s good. So reflecting back on the B.C. and Ontario wine industry in the 1980s and 90s and what were the major challenges, opportunities that you faced?

Ann Sperling 00:27:29 Well, at the time the industry was pretty small. So it was in the 80s. I’ll say the early 80s and BC, and maybe slightly before that in Ontario, that estate wineries became a thing.

Ann Sperling 00:27:43 So for your listeners, like prior to that, that meant there were a few really large wineries not really making a state or single vineyards or really anything that represented the wine growing regions where they existed. Vineyards were a source of bulk wine for the most part. So a state winery started to be licensed, and a few pioneers in each province kind of broke that threshold. And then more growers, people who’d been growers for many years who were just kind of itching to be able to make their own wines, started to produce wine. So there was that new segment of the industry that was really exciting. And so there was good opportunity there. But in reality, a lot of those projects were family operations. So a husband wife combination or a son father combination. And so the winemaking positions were actually really small or very few, I guess I should say, for, you know, someone from outside the family to be part of a project. And, you know, not to say that as those wineries grew, you know, more opportunities opened up.

Ann Sperling 00:28:57 But I was right at that very beginning stage. So I actually started working for a big winery and then moved into a small winery like Cedar Creek that took like about six years or so of gaining experience and then taking over the reins in, what was it, 1990 at Cedar Creek.

Natalie MacLean 00:29:16 And the state wines? Is that generally meant that the winery who makes the wine also grows the grapes like, owns the vineyards or has long term contracts with growers who grow the grapes?

Ann Sperling 00:29:26 Exactly. And that was the big difference, is that, you know, these growers knew their property, they knew the grapes they were producing. And, you know, they were excited to make their own wines. And of course, you know, let the world know about it, too, which was giving a lot of attention to the emerging industry that was being created.

Natalie MacLean 00:29:47 Yeah. And Peter, in the early days as executive director of the Vka, how did you envision the future of Ontario wines? I mean, it’s certainly changed so much over time, but what challenges were you seeing? What was the industry like and what are the big, big changes you’ve seen since I started?

Peter Gamble 00:30:04 You know, as I mentioned earlier, with wine tasting and then sort of moved from there directly into winemaking and, and viticulture and spent quite a bit of time on that front before doing the VQA thing.

Peter Gamble 00:30:14 So it was really, you know, my time at what’s now three years before that was Hildebrand, and actually before that was a different name yet again. And so began there in winemaking and started getting my feet on the ground as it related to that and to the viticulture and everything, and really saw a tremendous future. I mean, part of a decision to move into the wine industry was a recognition that it was growing, and we’d seen what Mondavi had done in California. You know, there was a real excitement, I think, in terms of North America growing in a very small group about the ability to produce fine wines, to do something that, you know, France and Germany and Italy and Spain have been doing for a long time. And to take it up to serious notch. And I was interested in that right out of the gates, like, how do you make great wine? What differentiates it, you know. How much can we do? How much of it is baby steps? How much is there, you know, for potential for the future? So I think right out of the gates, I was coming from a background of knowing very well a lot of the greatest wines in the world, from tasting them a lot and having read, you know, everything about them and understanding sort of the history of it.

Peter Gamble 00:31:16 I taught in the early years at a couple of universities in terms of wine appreciation and wine. And so I was, you know, very into it in a lot of detail and really thought we had a lot of potential in Niagara. And later, as I came to know, and B.C. in Nova Scotia as well. And so, yeah, looking forward to being part of an industry and part of a small cadre of players at the time that we’re really interested in moving forward in a quality direction, always looked at it with a great deal of hope, still do, and think that, you know, tremendous things have been done and yet more can be accomplished.

Natalie MacLean 00:31:50 Absolutely. Cool. So is there a like a behind the scenes story you can share with us, maybe about a wine that almost didn’t make it into a bottle but became a favorite or something unusual for either of you or both of you? Unusual thing that happened in the vineyard, like from all your years of making and consulting on wine projects?

Peter Gamble 00:32:10 I think that happens almost every year.

Peter Gamble 00:32:12 You know.

Natalie MacLean 00:32:12 Like.

Peter Gamble 00:32:13 Just being as varied as they are. There’s always some great variety. You know, every year you’re thinking, oh, this could be tricky. And that’s part of the challenge of, you know, like you’ll have years. We’ll taste a little bit later a couple of wines from 21, which was a difficult year in a cooler year and good for some varieties, not so great for others. And look at some of the things you sort of jump through. I think that happens often with vintages. It also happens often with techniques. If you’re doing, for example, reductive style Chardonnays. You know, we’ve had any number of times where you have people come into the wineries and see reductive style Chardonnay winemaking in the process and, and, and smell the early aromatics and think, oh my God, can this ever make it to wine?

Natalie MacLean 00:32:51 And so what does it smell like?

Peter Gamble 00:32:53 It smells like there’s a problem with the sewer system in.

Natalie MacLean 00:32:56 The wine.

Peter Gamble 00:32:57 That it’s at.

Natalie MacLean 00:32:58 It’s very dry.

Natalie MacLean 00:32:59 You want your Chardonnay.

Natalie MacLean 00:33:00 It’s very worst.

Peter Gamble 00:33:01 It’s hs2’s. So think of, you know, eggs, bad eggs. That kind of aromatic is fundamental in the early stages of it. And you can’t skip that stage, you know?

Natalie MacLean 00:33:09 Okay.

Natalie MacLean 00:33:10 Oh, wow. Like a problematic teenager or something. The difficult stage?

Natalie MacLean 00:33:15 Yeah.

Natalie MacLean 00:33:15 Experience. I guess anything comes to mind for you, Anne? Like a particular vintage or moment? Unusual.

Natalie MacLean 00:33:23 Well, I.

Ann Sperling 00:33:24 Guess, you know, thinking about the 21 vintage, thinking about the 21 vintage, and when it started to rain in the fall and didn’t stop. It was like, you know, like Peter says, our experience gives us a lot of depth. And, you know, we weren’t panicking because it’s like, oh, but if you, you know, think about it. This is like 2006. We had an early start to the season. We had, you know, pretty warm growing conditions through the entire growing season. And now it’s raining and it’s the fall.

Ann Sperling 00:33:56 So we really just have to wait it out, see how long we can go and, you know, maybe make some decisions along the way. In the end, you know, we made some rosé instead of red wine and, you know, things like that, some sparkling instead of table wine, Chardonnay. But at least having been through that in oh six, we knew that those wines had a certain level of ripeness. They had enough balance and body and structure to make them live, you know? So when I was thinking about oh, six Chardonnays. Like, maybe they’re going to live five years less than their counterparts. But when you’re already looking at 15 years out, it’s like, you know, we don’t really have anything to worry about here. We can work through this, right? So I think that’s, you know, a big thing that sort of stands out.

Natalie MacLean 00:34:46 Great. So when you’re looking at a new project because you’ve done many new starts and new projects, what are you looking for? I mean, obviously a great vineyard side.

Natalie MacLean 00:34:56 Maybe if you’re working with the person who owns the vineyard, passion, etc. but is there anything unique that you can point to that really makes or breaks it for you?

Peter Gamble 00:35:08 I think it depends a lot on the project. And so, for example, in Argentina, when we were thinking of doing something there, the project became first and foremost they had a starting base, which was we wanted to do something really top end, and it doesn’t need to be big and be commercial. It needs to be a little more than a hobby and it needs to work. But it doesn’t need to be a big proposition, and it needs to be totally top hand because there was no point in us doing it at any other level down there. We wanted only to do it, you know, really well. So in that case, the hunt for the vineyard became, you know, very important one, because of course, if you know, a bad vineyard only makes bad wine or marginal wine or okay, wine, but it never makes great wine.

Peter Gamble 00:35:48 And so the hunt became to find a great vineyard, and I spent probably the better part with and spending part of it, but not quite as much time there. During those early days at looking at vineyards, and we looked at over 230 before we found one, I think everyone there was on the verge of giving up on this thing. Well, they’re not really going to buy anything, you know, because we we’d get it to a certain stage, then we’d do soil analysis and we weren’t quite happy, or we’d talk to people who had made wine from the vineyard and we wouldn’t be happy, or, you know, something would come up and we just wouldn’t quite be where we were and wanted to be. With the quality of the vineyard.

Natalie MacLean 00:36:21 What were some of the extreme things you did? Where were you? Like, could you walk to the leaves or.

Natalie MacLean 00:36:26 Yeah. No, Argentina’s.

Peter Gamble 00:36:27 Really difficult in that regard too. They call it the frontier and for good reasons. You know, as you get up into higher altitude in Mendoza specifically, you’re often on horseback.

Peter Gamble 00:36:36 Not only are you on horseback, but there were some areas for potential vineyards because we were looking at both at that time, that you couldn’t even gain access to except by horse. So you’re on horseback automatically. But in some cases, there were gauchos going up the day before to hack away the wild roses, because even horses wouldn’t get through to some of the territories. You had to determine where water was and that there was sufficient water to do to do a vineyard with. So he spent quite a bit of time doing that, which is both fun and takes a lot of time.

Natalie MacLean 00:37:06 That’s truly frontier land.

Natalie MacLean 00:37:07 It really is. It really.

Natalie MacLean 00:37:08 Is. I think you were mentioning you were so high up. You were looking down on condors like those birds of prey.

Natalie MacLean 00:37:13 That.

Natalie MacLean 00:37:14 Circle around.

Natalie MacLean 00:37:15 That’s your.

Natalie MacLean 00:37:16 Higher. Yeah, yeah. That’s amazing.

Peter Gamble 00:37:18 The early vineyards were looking at it and and I joked about it quite a bit was we’d had early conversations with a lot of the French winemakers that had come in with the colonial associate, the sort of the aristocratic French group that came in in the southern part of the UCO Valley.

Peter Gamble 00:37:31 And in a lot of those earlier conversations with us as winemakers, talking winemaker to winemaker, they were saying, you know, we think we came in a little low. We could have been at a higher elevation. pH is are still a little high today. There’s still a little low. It’s not quite what we’d hoped for. You know, in many regards. So when we were looking we were automatically looking at higher elevations there. We got to joking that we really liked the idea of being able to look down on the French, you know.

Natalie MacLean 00:37:55 So.

Natalie MacLean 00:37:58 Well, while you brought that up, that’s Michele Roland, the flying winemakers part of that? Yeah, exactly. How would you say you differ from him or the flying winemakers we’ve come to know, typically from France, and they’re going around the world consulting at different projects.

Peter Gamble 00:38:13 I think we’re very different in the regard that we we make wine differently and our styles are different than the context. It was very much Parker driven within the context of the Roland thing.

Peter Gamble 00:38:24 So we saw an awful lot of acreages that were left to hang, you know, endlessly, like at ripeness levels at, you know, 26, 27, 28 brix that would create wines of super high alcohol, that you might then use reverse osmosis in order to get it back down to a normal alcohol level. We just thought it was all quite extreme, and we thought that that maturity in the vineyard was creating flavors and characteristics that weren’t necessarily conducive to what we felt. Fine. Malbec could be at lower alcohol levels, done more elegantly, maybe treated a bit more like Pinot than like the cab family. So that’s a big part of it. I mean, I think our interpretations aesthetically, of what Mendoza might do best were different than were being done there at the time. I think now it’s much different, and with some subsequent players things have gone more in that direction, which we’re delighted to see. But I think that was one of the major differences.

Natalie MacLean 00:39:16 Yeah. Okay. We should jump in.

Natalie MacLean 00:39:18 Maybe to On seven. We’re going to come back to Verse Auto, but get a taste of the extreme lengths that you’ll go to to evaluate a site. But let’s talk about on seven. Now, it’s situated in the Four Mile Creek, a sub-appellation of Niagara-on-the-Lake. As you know, it’s a flat and fertile area that’s warmer on average than the Niagara Escarpment—often called the benches—where Chardonnay typically thrives in cooler, higher elevations. So what made you believe that Niagara-on-the-Lake could produce exceptional Chardonnay?

Natalie MacLean 00:39:47 And.

Peter Gamble 00:39:48 Lead on viticulture? But I started that project with with Vittorio and Sula, so I’ll come in early. I often work on the basis of paradigms, where I’ll take a look at a wine style throughout the world and say, you know, I think this could be done really well in this area. And that kind of thing is is a starting point. You need to have some idea if you want to make, you know, really fine wine what it is you might be able to accomplish within the parameters that you have.

Peter Gamble 00:40:12 The obvious things that terroir, the exposures, the soils, you know, the temperatures in general. And so in looking at on seven, I knew an area that was between Stratus, which I’d worked on between, the Lily vineyard. You know, in terms of general location, general warmth, location in Niagara and.

Natalie MacLean 00:40:30 Knew.

Peter Gamble 00:40:30 Roughly how much warmer we were than other projects that I’d worked on, might include, you know, for example, clouds and properties up on the bench for Chardonnay and Pinot. And we had Vittorio wanting very much to do Pinot noir and Chardonnay as the classic varieties. I saw that as an opportunity to expand what we were doing with Chardonnay and Pinot Noir in Niagara, to go a different direction of the bench and to think of it, the bench as being cooler, north facing slope, thinner soils, you know, heavy limestone background and things closer to maybe shapely in style, for example, or a lighter, lighter coat to bone. And I saw an opportunity to take the extra warmth of Niagara, of Niagara on the Lake and four mile away from the influences of the lake and of the river, and to do something with a little more richness, a little more intensity.

Peter Gamble 00:41:23 So a different direction than I would take or an would take, or a winemaker would take on the bench and go for something in a different style, but with a very specific target, namely a bigger, broader one, which I like to use, you know, a target that I would never expect to reach. But but something like that.

Natalie MacLean 00:41:40 Stylistically.

Natalie MacLean 00:41:40 Another sub appellation within Burgundy itself. So Chablis being up the north and then Montreal being more south and a richer style of Chardonnay.

Natalie MacLean 00:41:50 Yeah.

Peter Gamble 00:41:51 And Pinot noir within that context.

Natalie MacLean 00:41:52 And Pinot noir. Yeah, absolutely. And and what was it about the abandoned farm that drew your attention, or this project in general? Did you have doubts because the, you know, you’re going for Chardonnay and Pinot Noir in Niagara on the Lake?

Ann Sperling 00:42:06 Well, I guess just thinking about my first experiences with Chardonnays in Niagara. There were some that I really didn’t like, but then started to dig into some of the single vineyard wines that were being made and realizing that of all of the sub appellations, Niagara on the Lake probably has the greatest diversity in terms of soil and and sort of vineyard potential.

Ann Sperling 00:42:33 So a lot of grapes, they’re grown for different reasons, right? You know, some of the biggest farms are more about productivity than they are about individuality. So this property kind of fell within a geographic area that we knew that we could get more distinction out of. And then, of course, Vittorio and Sula, they were adamant about working organically. So we know that not only the fact that it was abandoned, that equals, you know, Soils not disturbed. More organic matter. More biodiversity in the soil. And so we could out of the gates, get those organic features and benefits from the soil, but also working organically. You’re not pushing the vines in terms of productivity. So you can get some of the effects of old vines, as in, you know, more character, more quality, more balance, more harmony, more concentration. You get that much sooner than in, conventionally raised vines.

Natalie MacLean 00:43:40 And was there a moment when you knew now that Vittorio and Sulla both wanted to farm organically? They wanted to go for excellence, not pushing productivity.

Natalie MacLean 00:43:49 Those are all kind of lines up with your goals. But was there a moment or something that made it decisive that you said, yes, these are the right people we want to work with next?

Peter Gamble 00:43:59 I think that’s part of it. You know, when we look at, we assess not only the vineyards and the area at first, but also the proprietors. We want to work with people that are, you know, philosophically similar. You mentioned in Lyon and that’s exactly the case. I mean, so we had people in Victoria and Sula that we knew were, you know, very philosophically similar. They wanted to do top end and only top end. They knew that cropping levels would have to be very low in order to accomplish that. They were very comfortable. And probably the clincher. Going directly to your question, Nathalie, is on the issue of planting that vineyard. It took us probably six years, I think 14. Finally we went in for the first time, the first planting. I think 19 and 20, we were still planning and and I are draconian as it relates to what we’ll take from nurseries, what we’ll take in terms of rootstock, what we’ll take in terms of, you know, rootstock clone combinations and selections thereof in order to go on a vineyard.

Peter Gamble 00:44:58 And we simply were in a period when it was very, very difficult to get the best vines with the best, you know, clones and rootstocks from the best nurseries. And so it took a long time to plant. That’s a costly proposition. if you know, the average producer winemaker would just, you know, plant it all first year with those clones that are roughly what you wanted. This was not that kind of effort. So a ton of energy went into that. And a lot of, you know, time and money essentially.

Natalie MacLean 00:45:25 So they were patient people.

Natalie MacLean 00:45:27 Yeah.

Natalie MacLean 00:45:28 Yeah. But so on seven refers to the fact it’s a seven acre property, although I think there might be some additional acres now. But how does working on such a small focused vineyard focus your winemaking choices compared to larger operations? So you’ve talked about you can do organic and biodynamic, but you’re not pressed for productivity. But are there some other things that come from that?

Ann Sperling 00:45:50 I would say that there’s less room for error because we’re just working with that fruit.

Ann Sperling 00:45:56 And, even though we, you know, once the wine is harvested and made, we can still declassify if we feel it’s necessary. But there’s just less room for that. So we want to hope that the decisions that have been made, you know, in the beginning, in terms of those plantings, but also, you know, as harvest comes along, as the season progresses, that, you know, we’re doing the right things. And, we always carve out the time required to visit the property routinely and be engaged with the viticultural team in order to, you know, have them doing things at the right time. and, you know, it’s worked very well. And we’ve been, you know, always so pleased with in particular the Chardonnay from that site.

Natalie MacLean 00:46:44 Yeah. And you’ve mentioned this several times, you know, wanting to do top notch wines no matter whatever project. What is it about that? Is it just why why not just make a lot of wine and be very rich and.

Natalie MacLean 00:46:57 Yeah, yeah, yeah. Well, I must do several. Yes. There are those.

Peter Gamble 00:47:02 Who do that well, and there are those who would prefer to, to focus on the quality. I think for us it’s, you know, it’s an artisan adventure. You know, we like very much that context because we came at it. You know, me, especially with, you know, my background, you know, starting at wine tasting as opposed to starting at wine growing. You know, the target was there before methodology was there. And so, you know, I always knew that, you know, where I wanted to be was producing the finest wines with the finest and most complex flavors. That’s what fascinated it was, you know, how do you make that from grapes? Because one of my, you know, sort of early things that would always be triggered by a great wine, you know, I was like, how do you possibly do that with grapes? It’s so complex. It’s so layered.

Peter Gamble 00:47:40 There’s so many things to it. It’s such an amazing product. It’s, it’s it’s an art to a certain extent. And I think that drove a lot of what we want to do and still drives it. So we select based on that ability and especially now at this stage in our careers, you know, we’ve turned down, you know, a number of, you know, products over the last few years and that might have been related to the proprietors or to the vineyard site or, you know, to to any number of things. But, you know, you know, plant asparagus. This is not suited for a great vineyard site. It’s not what we do. That’s part of it. To me, great wine is difficult. And so you need you want to have all of those building blocks in place. You know, we talk clones. Rootstock site. ET cetera. ET cetera. And I think there’s that. And then in mentioned declassified, it’s always a terrifying word sometimes with owners like, wait a minute, what’s declassifying? And it’s like.

Natalie MacLean 00:48:25 Well.

Natalie MacLean 00:48:26 It means you’re not going to get as much.

Natalie MacLean 00:48:27 Money. Yeah.

Peter Gamble 00:48:28 Like some vintages, you know, aren’t necessarily perfect for certain varieties. Some barrels go awry, some things go awry. And so you need to count on, you know, within your business plan, a certain amount of wine that’s not going to make it into your top flight, you know, product. And so so now those are things that at the top end that matter agreed to.

Natalie MacLean 00:48:45 And is that what happened with on seven? Did you make a rosé instead of a Pinot noir? One vintage.

Ann Sperling 00:48:51 Yeah, that’s getting back to the 21 vintage. And 21 would have been the, Let me think about this, actually. Sorry. 20. We harvested a very small amount of Pinot noir. It wasn’t enough to fill an oak barrel, which is 225l. So in 2020, we did our skin fermentation and all of that in an oak barrel. But then we had to transfer the wine to something smaller for aging.

Ann Sperling 00:49:19 Right. So we were able to release, you know, a handful of bottles to their loyal customers in that allocation. And so there was really high expectations for the 21 vintage because it was a little more abundant. But because of that season and the endless rain that we saw through the fall, we felt that we couldn’t top what we had done in 20 so that it would be, you know, a great way to still have Pinot Noir in the lineup, but to make it a rosé.

Natalie MacLean 00:49:51 And.

Peter Gamble 00:49:51 The numbers and the flavors were perfect in 21 for rosé. So we were in the vineyard sort of tasting the Pinot noir in late August and thinking, ooh, I don’t think it’s going to get there as it relates to a, you know, a really top end Pinot red. But boy, the flavors are great, the numbers are great, the pH is, the Tas is. This could make an absolutely spectacular rosé. So the you know, the the point then comes to, you know, coming back to Victoria and Sue who were looking forward to a Pinot red and saying, well, you know, given the vintage, this is what we suggest you do.

Peter Gamble 00:50:24 We can do a good Pinot or we can do a really amazing rosé. Unfortunately and greatly, they chose to go with the rosé.

Natalie MacLean 00:50:31 Oh, they are very flexible. Okay. And you keep saying to I know pH is acidity levels but what’s to.

Peter Gamble 00:50:37 Yeah total acidity.

Natalie MacLean 00:50:38 It’s total acidity.

Peter Gamble 00:50:40 It’s total acidity. It measures all the acidity together as tartaric acid and gives you a number and a sense of the brightness and the vivacity of the wine, essentially.

Natalie MacLean 00:50:49 And you talk about squishing berries in your fingers, grapes and slip skins and staining. What’s that all about when you’re checking for ripeness in the vineyard?

Ann Sperling 00:50:58 So yeah, we have kind of a ritual or a routine procedure that we do when we’re tasting, especially as the grapes are ripening and particularly towards the end of that ripening process. And so we’re using our senses, all of them, to help to, you know, determine the optimal time for harvest. So, you know, chemical analysis gives us those basic things like the brix, which is percent sugar.

Ann Sperling 00:51:26 And, you know, our total acidity in grams per liter and pH that, you know, gives us some indications of ripeness, but it’s really what we’re sensing. So the whole routine starts with first you squish the berry in your mouth, but don’t chew it. and you taste the juice, and then you kind of mush it around on your tongue. Take the seeds out, but hold them in your hand. Taste the pulpy part of the berry and see how that texture and flavor is. And then chew the skins like. First your initial impressions of how crunchy it is, how much resistance you get, and then you chew and chew and chew and two and two and you get the tan. You start to get a flavor from the tannins. So when the, you know, just almost any variety, when it’s under right, you’ll get spinach flavors when it’s green and those start to disappear as it matures. And then you start to get, you know, deeper flavors from it and mostly texture when you’re assessing the tannins, then you open your hand and look at those seeds and you see, are they green? Do they have some green and some brown? Are they wholly brown? And then you can put them between your teeth and kind of test how dense they are.

Ann Sperling 00:52:43 You know, all of those kind of starts to build up your, your database. from each tasting through the vineyard until you sort of hit that moment when you go, yeah, this is the right time.

Natalie MacLean 00:52:54 You really torture your noses and mouse spinach and sewage and.

Natalie MacLean 00:52:59 And we even.

Peter Gamble 00:52:59 Do it with stems. Natalie. I mean, worse than that, it’s a lot of times.

Natalie MacLean 00:53:02 You know, you’re chewing on stems.

Natalie MacLean 00:53:04 That’s like chewing on bark.

Natalie MacLean 00:53:05 Yeah, I know exactly. Yeah. Yeah.

Natalie MacLean 00:53:08 Wow. So this gives you a. Yeah, a physical sense. It’s. Yeah. Beyond the chemical analysis and the machines and everything else, you’re you’re in there again with your senses for that last mile or whatever. Trying to analyze that way. That is fascinating. And it slips skin. Does that mean if the grape berry comes out of its skin easily, is that a sign that it’s riper?

Ann Sperling 00:53:33 Actually, it’s more of a tendency of the individual variety. Varieties. So kind of the classic slip skins that we grew up with in the very early days were the braska where you can, you know, actually squish that berry and almost the whole thing pops out and you’re just left with the skin in your hand.

Ann Sperling 00:53:52 But most of the vinifera don’t do that. So there’s a real distinction there. But Malbec has that tendency. And so where we see it is if you have a late season rain in Malbec, in the case of Malbec, it’s almost like a dilution layer next to the skin. So the internal part pops out. And so that’s like a physical property that we assess to determine after a rain when we’re ready to pick. Because then you lose that slip skin tendency and you know that you’re back to the concentration level that you had before the rains.

Natalie MacLean 00:54:28 Very interesting. Well, there you have it. I hope you enjoyed our chat with Anne and Peter. Here are my takeaways. Number one, what were the key challenges and breakthroughs that shaped the BC and Ontario wine industries in the 80s and 90s? As Anne and Peter explained at the time, the industry was really small. So it was in the early 80s in BC and maybe slightly before that in Ontario, that estate wineries really became a thing. Prior to that, there were a lot of really large wineries not making a state or single vineyards.

Natalie MacLean 00:55:05 Vineyards were just a source of bulk wine for the most part, but a few pioneers in each province broke that threshold. And then, as more people who had been growers of grapes for many years were itching to make their own wines, that really started to produce quality wine. A lot of these projects were family operations, and as those wineries grew, more opportunities opened up. Number two, what makes or breaks a new wine project and why is finding the right vineyard often the most time consuming step? Well, now we observe that it depends a lot on the project. In Argentina, they wanted to do something really top end, so it did not need to be big and commercial, but they wanted it to be more than a hobby. The hunt for the vineyard became an important one. They looked at over 230 vineyards. Oh my gosh. As they say, I think everyone was on the verge on giving up on us, thinking they’re not going to buy anything because they get to a certain stage, do a soil analysis, not quite happy, or they talk to the people who were making wine from the vineyards.

Natalie MacLean 00:56:09 Something would come up and it wouldn’t be just right. But just like Goldilocks, in the end they found the perfect vineyard. Except they had to look at 231st and number three. What made Peter and Anne believe that Niagara on the Lake could produce exceptional Chardonnay? So the couple really works with a lot of different vineyards throughout the world, looks at different paradigms. So they’re looking at the obvious things like terroir, exposure, soil temperatures. And when they looked at on seven Winery in Niagara on the Lake, they knew that that area, there was vineyard area between Stratus and Lily. They had worked on both of them, and they knew how much warmer that was that area than previous. So when they spoke with the landowner, Vittorio, he really wanted to do classic Pinot noir and Chardonnay, and they saw this as an opportunity to really go after that in Niagara on the Lake and to go on a different direction than the Niagara Bench, which is cooler, north facing slope, thinner soils, heavy limestone that really made wines closer to Chablis in style, that unoaked Chardonnay from northern France.

Natalie MacLean 00:57:29 They saw this as an opportunity to take the extra warmth of Niagara on the Lake and do something with more richness, more intensity, bigger, broader, a more monstrous like style. All right. In the show notes, you’ll find the full transcript of my conversation with Anand. Peter links to their website, as well as to the websites of the various wineries mentioned in today’s episode, so that you can order wine directly from them. Most will ship right to your door in Canada. The video versions as well of these conversations on Facebook and YouTube live, and where you can order my book online now no matter where you live. If you missed episode 72, go back and take a listen. I chat with Anne Sperling about orange wines and biodynamic farming. I’ll share a short clip with you now to whet your appetite.

Ann Sperling 00:58:20 I think that’s really what I’d like to see happen with orange wines is lots of small batches and lots of engagement at a really foody level, like right there with your plate of whatever, you know, your local fresh vegetables and locally raised meats and things like that.

Ann Sperling 00:58:39 And to really start thinking about winemakers as farmers and as people that are making their meals more interesting.

Natalie MacLean 00:58:48 Absolutely. And you refer to yourself as a wine grower.

Ann Sperling 00:58:51 Exactly. Yeah. But it’s the engagement with consumer. I think that we have some barriers to that. With a big organization like the Lcbo distributing our wines and making it more distant from the consumers, and sure, it’s more convenient for everyone. But at the same time, I think we want to engage and realize that our wine and our food are coming from our local agriculture.

Natalie MacLean 00:59:19 You won’t want to miss next week when we continue our chat with Anne and Peter. If you liked this episode or learned even one thing from it, please email or tell a friend about the podcast this week, especially someone you know who’d be interested in learning more about Niagara wines. It’s easy to find the Unreserved Wine Talk podcast. Just tell them to search for Natalie MacLean Wine on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, their favorite podcast app, or they can listen to the show on my website at Natalie MacLean.

Natalie MacLean 00:59:52 Email me if you have a SIP tip question, or if you’d like to win one of six books I have ready to give away. I’d also love to hear your thoughts on this episode, or if you’ve read my book or listening to it. Email me at Nathalie at Natalie MacLean. Com in the show notes, you’ll find a link to take a free online food and wine pairing class with me, called the Five Wine and Food Pairing Mistakes That Can Ruin Your Dinner and How to Fix Them Forever. At Natalie MacLean. And that’s all in the show. Notes at Natalie MacLean 342. Thank you for taking the time to join me here. I hope something great is in your glass this week. Perhaps a gorgeous Niagara Chardonnay that tastes like Monterey, but at a quarter of the price. You don’t want to miss one juicy episode of this podcast, especially the secret full bodied bonus episodes that I don’t announce on social media. So subscribe for free now at Natalie MacLean. Com. Meet me here next week.

Natalie MacLean 01:01:06 Cheers.

 

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