How did Marcel Ott, of Domaines Ott, revolutionize Rosé wine? Rasmus Emborg & Jens Honoré Share the Story in Rosé Revolution

Natalie MacLean
May7th

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Introduction

How did Rosé get a bad reputation as not being a “real” wine? How did Marcel Ott revolutionize the world of Rosé wine? Why is Grenache a popular grape for making trendy pale Rosés? How do Rosé’s beautiful bottles both help and hurt its reputation?

In this episode of the Unreserved Wine Talk podcast, I’m chatting with Rasmus Emborg and Jens Honoré, the author and photographer, respectively, who have published Rosé Revolution.

You can find the wines we discussed here.

 

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Highlights

  • How did Jens and Rasmus develop a love for Rosé?
  • What does Rasmus find most satisfying about owning a vineyard?
  • Why did Jens and Rasmus want to produce their book independently?
  • Why did Jens choose to photograph the winemakers in black and white, using an analog camera?
  • What was the most challenging aspect of writing Rosé Revolution?
  • Why was Marcel Ott’s pioneering decision to treat Rosé as a wine in its own right so radical in 1912?
  • Why did Rosé have such a bad reputation?
  • What makes Grenache such a good grape to make Rosé?
  • Are there benefits to the shape of the iconic Domain Ott bottles?
  • What are some of the wildest bottle Rosé designs Jens found in researching Rosé Revolution?
  • Why does Rasmus believe we’ll see more Rosé being sold in brown bottles in the future?
  • What role do ultra-premium Rosés play in the market?
  • Beyond great quality, what factors have made Whispering Angel so successful?

 

Key Takeaways

  • How did Rosé get a bad reputation as not being a “real” wine?
    • As Jens and Rasmus explain, Rosé wine is made from the red wine grapes and it’s the skin that gives color and tannin to the wine. And if you let the wine ferment with the skin, you end up with a red wine. If you let the wine bleed or siphon off the palest portion, then the ratio between the juice and the skin is changed, and you can get an even more powerful red wine. This was the way Rosé wine was produced as an afterthought, rather than with the intention to make Rosé wine. This is part of why Rosé has had a bad reputation because it’s been considered a byproduct.
  • How did Marcel Ott revolutionize the world of Rosé wine?
    • Marcel Ott was fascinated by Rosé wine because he thought that this was a wine that had the taste of the grapes most precisely. At that time, and also for many years after, Rosé wine was a byproduct. If you wanted to produce a powerful red wine, you could let the juice bleed in the beginning of the fermentation – let’s call this Saignee method – and this juice that came out. What should we do about it? We can turn it into Rose wine. Marcel Ott was the first one to choose the variety of grapes that gave the best Rosé, to position the vineyards in the best possible way to make good Rosé and to choose the harvest time with the ambition to make the best possible Rosé.
  • Why is Grenache a popular grape for making trendy pale Rosés?
    • Grenache is a grape with thin skins and very little pigment so it brings little color to the wine. This is what a lot of Rosé producers are aiming for. This is the kind of Rosé wine that is the most trendy these years. It’s pale, dry, crisp wine, what we call the Provence style. But also, Grenache has this natural sweetness that applies well to the Rosé wine category as well.
  • How do Rosé’s beautiful bottles both help and hurt its reputation?
    • Rosé, with its beautiful colour in a transparent creatively designed bottle looks great on the shelves in the liquor store. It looks good on Instagram. And I think this is a part of the popularity of Rosé. At the same time, it’s also a reason why the bad reputation of Rosé wine remains with some of the wine establishment. At the same time, it’s much easier recycle brown glass than clear glass. So there’s an environmental issue as well. I think this will influence the producers in the future.

 

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Rosé has had a bad reputation for many years because it’s been considered a byproduct. - Rasmus Emborg Rasmus Emborg Click to tweet

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The marketing department behind Rosé is much stronger and much better, in my opinion, than red wine. - Jens Honoré Jens Honoré Click to tweet

 

About Rasmus Emborg & Jens Honoré

Rasmus Emborg is a journalist who has worked in the media industry for over 25 years. He is the author of Beer Brothers (2019), about twin beer brewers Mikkel Borg-Bjergsø and Jeppe Jarnit-Bjergsø. He and his wife own a small vineyard in Provence. The grapes are mainly used for rosé wine, and the production takes place at a local cooperative.

Jens Honoré is a photographer who has worked in the advertising industry for 30 years. In 2018, he published A Place to Dream for SOS Children’s Villages, and in partnership with Jens Vilstrup, he published the book, Farewell to a Black/White World about the UN’s 2015 Sustainable Development Goals. He has also contributed to Building a Dream about LEGO owner Kjeld Kirks Kristiansen’s realization of LEGO House. In 2021, he published The Right to Food about homeless people’s relationship with food. Jens lives in New York and as a wine enthusiast, has followed the trend of increasing enthusiasm for rosé wine with great interest.

 

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Transcript

Natalie MacLean 00:00:00 How did rosé get a bad reputation as not being a real wine? How did Marcel ORT revolutionize the world of rosé wine? Why is Grenache a popular grape for making trendy pale rosés? And how do rosés beautiful bottles both help and hurt its reputation? In today’s episode, you’ll hear the stories and tips that answer those questions. In our chat with Rasmus Amburg and Jens Honoré, the author and photographer respectively, who have published The Rosé Revolution. By the end of our conversation, you’ll also discover how Jens and Rasmus developed a love for rosé. What Rasmus finds most satisfying about owning a vineyard. Why? Yens and Rasmus wanted to produce their book independently. Why? Jens photographed the winemakers in black and white using an analogue camera. And I must say, the results are spectacularly stunning. The most challenging aspect of writing the Rose Revolution. Whether there are benefits to the shape of the iconic domains OT bottles, some of the wildest rosé bottle designs Jen’s found while researching rosé revolution, the role ultra premium rosés play in the market, and the factors that have made whispering Angel rosé so successful beyond great quality.

Natalie MacLean 00:01:33 Do you have a thirst to learn about wine? Do you love stories about wonderfully obsessive people, hauntingly beautiful places, and amusingly awkward social situations? Well, that’s the blend here on the Unreserved Wine Talk podcast. I’m your host, Natalie MacLean, and each week I share with you unfiltered conversations with celebrities in the wine world as well as confessions from my own tipsy journey. As I write my third book on this subject. I’m so glad you’re here. Now pass me that bottle, please, and let’s get started. Welcome to episode 336. So there I was, remote in one hand, wine glass in the other. I’ve been falling down a TV rabbit hole lately with White Lotus, the pit, and your friends and neighbors. Golden age of television. Or am I just devolving into undisciplined couch jello? Hard to say, but these shows got me thinking about the wines I just tasted. Wine critic brain never turns off. Sorry. Not sorry. The characters in these shows reminded me of some absolutely gorgeous bottles in my latest wine reviews.

Natalie MacLean 00:02:53 So there are some bold barbecue reds under $20. Think smoky, juicy and intense, like Doctor Ruby from the pit. There are some zingy Sauvignon blanc. Bright. Refreshing. Unpredictable. Like Piper. The daughter in White Lotus. Some sumptuous Chardonnays. Rich, buttery and more than a little indulgent. Perfect for pastas, butter poached lobster and the deliciously awkward dinner party scenes in your friends and neighbours, and bubbly beauties from champagne to clement, there perfect Mother’s Day gifts in pure Parker Posey, the mother in White Lotus. Memorable, a touch dramatic and absolutely worth celebrating. Do you need a no nonsense wine shopping list for your next liquor store run? Well, I’ve got you covered with my latest reviews and we’ll put a link to them in the show notes. You’ll have the perfect pairings ready for your next binge watch of The Last of Us, black mirror, Ransom Canyon. I could go on. Just curious, what’s in your glass these days? Or sometimes, just as importantly, what’s keeping you glued to the screen? Let me know at Natalie at Natalie MacLean.

Natalie MacLean 00:04:06 Right. Okay. Before I lose the script here, back to today’s episode. Although we don’t have copies of Rose Revolution to give away. My bad. I forgot to ask. I encourage you to buy it as it’s a gorgeous coffee table book. I still, though, have three copies of the award winning book, vines in a Cold Climate by Henry Jeffreys, last week’s guest. If you’d like to win a copy, please email me and let me know that you’d like to win a copy. It doesn’t matter where you live. I’ll choose three winners randomly from those who contact me at Natalie at Natalie MacLean dot com. In other bookish news, if you’re reading the paperback or e-book or listening to the audiobook of my memoir wine, which on fire rising from the Ashes of Divorce, defamation and Drinking Too Much, a national bestseller and one of Amazon’s best books of the year. I’d love to hear from you at Natalie at Natalie MacLean. I’d be happy to send you beautifully designed, personally signed book plates for the copies you buy or give as gifts.

Natalie MacLean 00:05:05 I’ll put a link in the show notes to all retailers worldwide at Natalie MacLean 336. The paperback usually arrives within a day or two of ordering, and the e-book and audiobook are, of course, instantly available. Okay, on with the show. Rasmus M Borg is a journalist who has worked in the media for more than 25 years. He is the author of Dear Brothers, about two brothers who both brewed beer but went into competition with each other heavily, which sounds like a very interesting book. He and his wife own a small vineyard in Provence. The grapes are mainly used for rosé wine. Jens Honoré is a photographer who has worked in the advertising industry for 30 years. In 2018, he published A Place to Dream for SOS Children’s Villages and in partnership with Jens Gilstrap. He published the book farewell to a Black and White World, about the UN’s 2015 Sustainable Development Goals. He has also contributed to building a dream about Lego owner Kjeld Kirk’s and Christensen’s realization of the Lego House. In 2021, he published The Right to Food, about homeless people’s relationship with food.

Natalie MacLean 00:06:24 He lives in New York and is a wine enthusiast. Rasmus joins us from his home in Copenhagen, Denmark. Jens from North Port in New York. Welcome, Rasmus and Jens. We’re so glad you’re here.

Rasmus Emborg & Jens Honoré 00:06:37 Thanks a lot. Thanks for having us. Thank you very much.

Natalie MacLean 00:06:41 Okay. Before we get into the whole rosé book, let’s focus on how you two met. What was the first time you met? Where and when? And then, most importantly, what was the first wine you shared together?

Rasmus Emborg & Jens Honoré 00:06:54 Well, actually, we met many years ago, actually. I think we met just before we started drinking wine. It’s like we are old school buddies. High school buddies. I guess we were around 15 or 16 years when we met for the first time. And I’m quite sure that the first alcohol we had together was beer.

Natalie MacLean 00:07:13 okay. Quite the good start. Did you both develop a love for rosé at the same time, or did one lead the other? Or how did that happen?

Rasmus Emborg & Jens Honoré 00:07:24 Well, I don’t know about that because I know Rasmus for a while had that vineyard back in Provence.

Rasmus Emborg & Jens Honoré 00:07:30 I know he was kind of getting into it, maybe a little bit different than I did. But my story was I’ve always been a wine buff for many, many years. I’ve been a collector and was all red wine, so 85, 90% of what I drank was red wine, and then it became more white wine. And then I kind of revisited rosé wine and just got blown by the quality. I used only to drink trouble. We get into that later in the book as well. And then I just rediscovered rosé wine and saw discovered how great the quality was and also that it connected. Drink good wine advertised the right way, which is just up my alley. Working in the advertising industry. So that was kind of my way into Rassie Erasmus.

Natalie MacLean 00:08:07 What drew you to rosé wine? Was it quality or something else?

Rasmus Emborg & Jens Honoré 00:08:11 Well, I mean, my story with the wine I think started 12 years ago when my wife and I, did a small stroll around in southern France village, suddenly looked into the window of a real estate agent, and we saw some pictures of an interesting property.

Rasmus Emborg & Jens Honoré 00:08:29 And a month later, we were the owner of a small vineyard in Provence that kind of made me, big into the world of rosé. I started exploring the world of rosé day by day, glass by glass. And as I got to know some of the best producers in the area and got to know what they were doing and how they year by year was developing the quality, and I realized that you could really get some interesting wine experiences from rosé, and that it was not only something that could bring some good atmosphere around a swimming pool or down on the beach. Well, then it got to me. It was also, at that time, the idea of capturing this ugly duckling story of a wine that had been looked down upon for so many years, but now was being turned into a real wine. That idea got to me and I developed it in my head. And then I started talking to people around it, and I talked to yes about it and immediately who was getting the idea? And yeah, the rest is history.

Natalie MacLean 00:09:37 Absolutely. How close is your story to Peter Mail’s story? A Year in Provence. Rasmus.

Rasmus Emborg & Jens Honoré 00:09:43 Well, I’ve read the story and I find it interesting. I have some experiences, like he had as well. Of course, mine is a more modern story, and I have the vineyard as my second home. My base is in Copenhagen. But yeah, it’s been interesting. Every now and then it’s given me some sweat in my face to develop this project. But I mean, it’s besides having three kids, I think this is one of the best things my wife and I have ever done.

Natalie MacLean 00:10:12 Wow. What do you find most satisfying about it?

Rasmus Emborg & Jens Honoré 00:10:16 I mean, I’m a foodie, I like food, I like to cook, I like wine, and getting familiar with this area, southern France, where you have a lot of good food and good ingredients. You go to the markets and I bring it home in my kitchen, I start cooking, I visit the local producers. As you know, I have my own vines and I’ve been discussing the character of the different varieties and well, is this a good season or is it a bad season? Is it too warm? Has it been too rainy this spring and so on? It is an adventure for me.

Rasmus Emborg & Jens Honoré 00:10:54 It has brought some new dimension to my life.

Natalie MacLean 00:10:57 Yeah, absolutely. And I would say one of the key differences about your book here and Peter or any other book on Rose is it’s photographed beautifully. So, yeah, show us some of the pictures. Now for those who are listening on the podcast. You’ll have to go to the show notes and you can watch the video or you can see pictures. But what was your approach, Jens, when you were photographing for this book? I mean, it’s such a big topic. How did you approach it?

Rasmus Emborg & Jens Honoré 00:11:23 Well, that’s a very good question because while we were discussing the opening of the book, we were kind of determined on making something that was also like an homage to the winemakers, because, as you probably know, as a wine professional, that making good bottle overseas is not easy. And it’s been kind of looked upon and this kind of spill over secondary wine and with our discovery and also with having a place down in Provence and my kind of going from red wine and thinking was too much and getting more and more into rosé wine, we discovered that it was more than a trend because a trend, if it is not good, is not quality.

Rasmus Emborg & Jens Honoré 00:11:56 It would go away in two years. And we seen what happened in the market. And it was a big shift not only for two years, but it stayed there for a long time. And the funny part was that all that market share that was going to Rossi went from red point drinkers.

Natalie MacLean 00:12:10 Oh, so it was red wine drinkers who were migrating over to rosé rather than mostly white.

Rasmus Emborg & Jens Honoré 00:12:16 White wine has stayed the same. And Brazil has kind of overtaken right now. And all the market shares in that market has gone from red wine into rosé wine. And as you probably know, rosé wine is basically a red wine, but it’s very different in the approach and also drinkability. But getting back to your question, we had a lot of talks and a long time preparing the book because as you know, if you see one vineyard, you kind of seen them all. You pick grape and you press it and you produce wine. So we spend a lot of time in our pre-production finding different stories, all based on high quality rosé wines, also showing that per se wine can produce all over the world and you have different approaches and all this story and the go to approach to how to make a successful or sell wine is very different.

Rasmus Emborg & Jens Honoré 00:12:59 That was kind of the benchmark we put on there. And then secondly, we don’t have any sponsors for the book. We want to be independent because we want to do everything ourselves. So every word is written by Rasmussen. Every photograph in the book is done by me. So that was kind of the approach we used to approach in the winemakers, and they all were very happy about it. They understood the seriousness of the book, but at the same time also wanted to show that it’s a coffee table book with big, great photos. And and it’s also done over a whole year to show that winemaking is a year long process.

Natalie MacLean 00:13:31 All the different seasons. Yeah, there’s a winter shot, right?

Rasmus Emborg & Jens Honoré 00:13:34 But then some of the winemakers we approached were more hesitant to be in port because who are you again? And we didn’t have names in the wine industry. We just like a photographer and a journalist, right? Some of them understood it, and we just had the serendipity of meeting the right people at the right time and getting some really significant producer on board, and that made the whole process much easier.

Rasmus Emborg & Jens Honoré 00:13:55 What I did and what Rasmus did was we went there several times and we wanted access to all the assets of making wine in the wine cellar. We also, you know, of course, the picking season. Rasmus had a sit down interview with the wine producers, the people who were, like, behind the brand. So, I mean, it was a big task, but also we want to make a book that is interesting is not only a coffee table book for looking at my pictures, please do. But it’s also really, really well written by Rasmus because we want to pay respect to these winemakers. So by working over a whole season, it made it more easy for me to make it more interesting to look at. And then each portray of the winemaker is done in black and white on an analogue camera.

Natalie MacLean 00:14:36 Are black and white photos? Yes, very dramatic of the winemakers.

Rasmus Emborg & Jens Honoré 00:14:40 That was a really great approach. And when they saw us coming with all that stuff, they were like, oh, you guys are serious because there’s been a lot of wine making books about rosé that was not that serious.

Rasmus Emborg & Jens Honoré 00:14:51 More like, you know, the colors. And you get seduced by that because the marketing department behind Rosie is much stronger and much better, in my opinion, than Red.

Natalie MacLean 00:15:00 And so do you think the black and white approach to your photos of the winemakers conveyed the seriousness, or is that the message you were trying to convey, that it’s not all rainbows and unicorns?

Rasmus Emborg & Jens Honoré 00:15:11 Exactly. And also because most of those guys, they’re not used to sit down for a portrait like some of the big ones. I just showed the photo of Lucien. I mean, meeting him is like whispering angel. The whispering angel guy. Sorry. Yeah. Thank you very much, Natalie. But, I mean, meeting him was just like. It’s rare. And for us to be given that chance and showing up with that camera and telling me what was the purpose that just gained respect. And then they saw what we were doing. And also we send, of course, all the photographs of different people. And they were like, wow.

Natalie MacLean 00:15:41 Terrific, terrific. Now, in terms of writing the book, Rasmus, what was the most challenging or difficult aspect of doing this.

Rasmus Emborg & Jens Honoré 00:15:51 Well, where to start? Allow me to turn it upside down. Because I actually think it’s been quite a joyride. I’m a journalist by education. Also by heart. I’m a sucker for a good story. And from the beginning, I think we were thrilled by this overall narrative about this wine that had been looked down upon, but now was developing into a real wine. And I mean, in the beginning, the tough part was to convince the producers that we were serious and to convince them that this was a great idea to make this book, and it was great for them to be part of it. Choosing these 13 different producers was quite a job as well. Our ambition was to find producers who were among the most significant producers around the world, but we also wanted them to have a good story on their own. You can read each chapter About each producer on its own.

Rasmus Emborg & Jens Honoré 00:16:51 I mean. Domaine Art, Chateau Lopez Heredia, from Rioja. Domaine Tom Perez assured that champagne. I mean, all these producers, they have a great story on their own. At the same time, they bring a piece to the overall puzzle. They have a significant role in the development of this category from domain art. You can see the aristocrat of the category. Marcel OTT was the first one who wanted to produce rosé in the way that we know it today. And up until saturation of shareholders who really set fire to the revolution. I mean, it’s been tough. It’s been hard work. And then we had the pandemic coming along, also giving some challenges while we were doing our research. But it’s been an experience of our life to meet these people, to have them open their doors for us to open their minds and hearts, and also to serve some really good wine.

Natalie MacLean 00:17:54 Absolutely. Let’s dig into domain. Art plays a significant role in your book as the pioneer of rosé. You write he was the first one in the world to treat rosé as a wine in its own right, rather than an afterthought.

Natalie MacLean 00:18:06 What are we going to do with this leftover juice? Why was that so radical in 1912? Was it simply because no one was doing it? Tell us a bit more about that and why Marcel ORT decided to go with rosé.

Rasmus Emborg & Jens Honoré 00:18:20 Marcel arty came from the northern part of France, who had a degree in agriculture, and actually he was on his way to Tunisia to be a wine producer, but stopped on his way in Provence. Of course, we’ve not talked to Marcel, but we’ve talked to his relatives, Jean-Francois Art, who today is running Domaine Art. Marcel Art was fascinated by rosé wine because he actually thought this was the kind of wine where you could actually taste the grapes most precisely at that time, and also for many years after, rosé wine was a byproduct. If you wanted to produce a powerful red wine, you could let the juice bleed. In the beginning of the fermentation, this is called the senior method. And this juice that came out. What should we do about it? Well, we can turn it into wine, and then we can use it for the people working in the farms or as a thirst quencher.

Natalie MacLean 00:19:18 Right? Because they just for those who aren’t familiar, they bled the juice, meaning they took off some to concentrate the red that was left. But the runoff juice that was at the head of the bleeding, that was the light pink, non-serious stuff they gave to the farmers or the workers.

Rasmus Emborg & Jens Honoré 00:19:33 Yeah, exactly. And I mean, if we should talk just a little bit about the technique. Rosé wine is made from blue glass or the red wine grapes, and it’s the skin who’s giving the color to the wine. And that is giving the tannins. And if you let the wine ferment with the skin, you end up with the red wine. If you’re in the beginning of the fermentation take out. You let it bleed. As you described, the ratio between the juice and the skin is changed, and then you can get an even more powerful red wine. And this was pretty much the way rosé wine was produced, not with the ambition to actually to do rosé wine, but because you had a residual product that you could turn into something.

Rasmus Emborg & Jens Honoré 00:20:15 This is a part of why rosé for so many years have had a bad reputation, because it’s been considered as a byproduct. It also meant that when the winemakers should choose what variety to have in their vines, where to position the vineyard, and at what time to harvest the grapes. This was all with the target to make the best possible red wine. What Marcel was the first one to actually do was to choose the variety of grapes that gave the best rosé. To position the vineyards in the best possible way, to make good rosé, and to choose the harvest time with the ambition to make the best possible rosé.

Natalie MacLean 00:21:01 And we’re the best grapes for rosé. Grenache. Syrah. Grenache.

Rasmus Emborg & Jens Honoré 00:21:05 Grenache is the dominant rosé grape. It’s the most popular rosé grape.

Natalie MacLean 00:21:10 What makes Grenache so good for rosé?

Rasmus Emborg & Jens Honoré 00:21:12 Grenache is a grape with thin skin and very little pigment. So it brings a little color to the wine. This is what a lot of producers are aiming for. This is the kind of rosé wine that is the most trendy these years.

Rasmus Emborg & Jens Honoré 00:21:27 Pale, dry, crisp wine, what we call the prolonged style rosé wine. But also Grenache has this natural sweetness that applies well to the wine category.

Natalie MacLean 00:21:39 Okay. And so Domaine Art has that iconic bottle. I don’t know if you can describe it. It’s almost like two bulbs or something. Well, how would you describe that bottle? And did you photograph that one? Because it was so eye catching.

Rasmus Emborg & Jens Honoré 00:21:53 I did, I did. And it’s actually from Greece. He tried not only for rosé wine, but all these wines are produced and sold in those bottles because he wanted to kind of create a whole new standard for the industry. As you probably know in the book. There’s a few of them who are like only rosé winemakers, but most of the producers in the book actually are winemakers, and they make three different wines red, white and rosé. Domaine wine has that very specific looking bottle.

Natalie MacLean 00:22:18 Oh, right. So it’s this elongated, but it bulb’s out and then comes back in. Is there a name for that style or it’s just domaines all their style?

Rasmus Emborg & Jens Honoré 00:22:28 Actually a ceramic bottle was found in the ground of Chateau de sel, which was the first domain of Domaine art.

Rasmus Emborg & Jens Honoré 00:22:37 They have three different domains today, and that inspired them to make this bottle as they tried to make it. The bottle of the rosé wine category like that. If you look at a Burgundy wine or a Bordeaux wine, you have the same bottle shape, but they manage.

Natalie MacLean 00:22:53 Yeah, with the bottles for a lot of rosés, like if I even look at modern day like Kylie Minogue, she’s got glass. That’s kind of, I don’t know what you call it, not shattered, but like textured glass. The design for bottles in rosé and their labels are just wild. They’re all over the map, which is kind of pretty. But what are the wildest designs you’ve noticed? Jens.

Rasmus Emborg & Jens Honoré 00:23:16 That’s kind of what I spoke about before, the advertising kind of approach to wine, which is much, much bigger impact on that type of wine than the two other types of wine. The problem is that a lot of wine connoisseurs kind of look down upon wine, because it’s more trendy, and I think it’s fantastic because if the content is not good, you can make all the fancy bottles you want.

Rasmus Emborg & Jens Honoré 00:23:36 It doesn’t hold up. We saw so many great bottles, but one of the patrons who was the Languedoc kind of producer, he makes a lot of different wines. He makes a wine that when you turn around, it looks like a bouquet of roses.

Natalie MacLean 00:23:48 Oh yes. The roses. I love that bottle. Just for those who have not seen it. It’s the bottom is like etched glass of roses and people empty that of the wine and then use it as a water decanter. It’s so beautiful.

Rasmus Emborg & Jens Honoré 00:24:00 If you go to a dinner party, instead of bringing a bouquet of flowers, you bring this, this bottle, this wine.

Natalie MacLean 00:24:05 Yes. Well, and some of their marketing has these bouquets of the bottles.

Rasmus Emborg & Jens Honoré 00:24:11 Exactly. I love those kind of approaches that you are creative with your product. It doesn’t have to be dull. And you can make fantastic labels and get into that book. In the writing also, we have this discussion about what is the right color of rosé. It means a lot to people.

Rasmus Emborg & Jens Honoré 00:24:27 It’s the marketing thing that you have to respect.

Natalie MacLean 00:24:29 Absolutely. Now, before we leave bottles, but I’ve heard recent research that says rosé and white wine in clear white glass, up to 30% is being affected by light strike. so their aromas are being changed or made worse by light strike, and that it’s only when you have glass that’s either amber or brown that you get protection from UV, B and UVA. Did you find out any of that sort of research or data when you were looking at this? I mean, the industry doesn’t seem to have any desire to move away from clear glass bottles. It seems part of the marketing of rosé. But I mean, if you think 30% of rosés and whites might be ruined by light strike, that seems like not a great trade off.

Rasmus Emborg & Jens Honoré 00:25:19 But it’s such a great marketing stunt and it’s such a big part. That’s a trade off. Of course, we actually saw something different and Rasmus get more into that. But but I mean, from the commercial aspect of it, it’s a huge marketing thing and it’s a very important part of why you drink rosé is the color of it.

Rasmus Emborg & Jens Honoré 00:25:34 We touched this issue in the book as well, and you are perfectly right, Natalie. I mean, it’s not good for the wine to be in a transparent bottle. Actually, you can test it if you, on a sunny day, bring a glass of rosé to your terrace and you let the sun shine on it for 15 minutes. It gets this not very nice color. It changes, and when you stop drinking it, it’s getting flat and it loses something that fruitiness. Yeah, it’s it’s liveliness. It’s liveliness. Yeah. The crispiness and so on. It’s actually in the book we have one producer, Cozy Bon, also from the southern part of France, who actually is going against the trends and is producing all in round bottle. You never know about the future, but if we talk again in three, 4 or 5 years, I think we will have more rosé wine in brown bottles. This is a development that comes with the development of the quality of the wine.

Natalie MacLean 00:26:34 Yes, and the sophistication of the drinker too.

Rasmus Emborg & Jens Honoré 00:26:37 Exactly. I mean, it looks good. The color of the rosé and the transparent bottle. model. And sometimes in this creativity design battle, and often also with some creative labels on it. It looks good on the shelves in the liquor store. It looks good on Instagram. This is a part of the popularity of rosé at the same time. It’s also a reason why the bad reputation of rosé wine sticks to some of what you can call the wine establishment, and is being used as convincing that this is not a real wine. What we are seeing now is that the reserve wine category is developing. You can get a lot of boring rosé wine, and there’s a lot of boring wine out there, just like red white. But you are seeing some really high quality rosé wine and you see diversity and you see wine that you can pair with food and so on. And I think that this will be more important than to look at a beautiful color through a transparent bottle at the same time. There’s also this thing about the recirculation.

Rasmus Emborg & Jens Honoré 00:27:43 Much easier. You can recirculate or reuse brown glass than white glass.

Natalie MacLean 00:27:49 Oh, it’s better for the environment.

Rasmus Emborg & Jens Honoré 00:27:51 Exactly. So there’s an environmental issue here as well. I think this will influence the producers in the future, and also to meet the demand of the consumers. They want to be more environmental. And I think more and more consumers will also end up preferring a wine in a brown glass bottle. Also due to environmental reasons.

Natalie MacLean 00:28:13 That’s great to know. I didn’t realize white glass was not as recyclable. So let’s talk about Domaine Arts Etoile star. It’s approximately $150 bottle of rosé. Consumers are used to paying 15 to $20. I think Jura Bertrand is now producing one that’s close to 200. What role do these ultra premium rosés play? Are they like, you know, when you see the runway, the latest Versace, you could never afford the suit, but you’ll buy the scar for the purse. Like, what’s going on with these extremely expensive roses? What’s your take on them?

Rasmus Emborg & Jens Honoré 00:28:47 €200.

Rasmus Emborg & Jens Honoré 00:28:49 That’s a lot for rosé wine. But if you look into the red wine category and the wine category, it’s not a lot. This is showing us how the wine category is developing. It’s actually kind of the slang. The guy with the whispering angel. He was the first to make gallows made of 100 years old grapes from 100 year old vines with Grenache. And when he put the rose into the market with a price slap of €120, I think it was at that time, some years ago. I mean, everybody was. Whoa, what is going on? This is not part of his success. It’s not a very big part of his business. But but Gareth has given the attention to saturation and to the category. And I think it has helped Changing the mind of the wine consumers and make them believe that it’s worth paying a little more than €20 for a bottle of wine.

Natalie MacLean 00:29:51 Right. There’s an anchoring effect.

Rasmus Emborg & Jens Honoré 00:29:52 And every time a producer does this domain. Not with the trial or with Claudia Tom.

Rasmus Emborg & Jens Honoré 00:29:59 And I mean, at this moment, they’re actually competing to make the world’s best rosé and also the world’s most expensive rosé. And I think this competition and this development is lifting the whole category. It helps convincing people that rosé can be a really good wine. It can be a real wine, and it can compete with red and white wine on the top shelves.

Natalie MacLean 00:30:23 Absolutely. Yeah. Let’s talk more about whispering Angel. Whispering Angel created a big splash in the Canadian market. I don’t know if it’s 35 or $45. What was the key to success now? Great quality. You have to have that. Was there something else? Was it the name? Did they do something specifically in the marketing of this rosé? Why do you think whispering Angel has been so successful beyond? Of course its great quality.

Rasmus Emborg & Jens Honoré 00:30:51 Well, just got a background in winemaking from Bordeaux. He’s got a really famous family and all that. But before he even venture into that, selling the vineyard up in there in Bordeaux and buying this new window down in the Provence, he had a plan.

Rasmus Emborg & Jens Honoré 00:31:03 He had a vision that was a purely driven by marketing experience, because he’s been out there on the road for so many years. This is a French wine with an English name. That’s not by coincidence. It is fought through from the get go. He had a plan even before he started making wine for how to marketing his wine worldwide, and understand that this whole trend of rosé would be a global thing. Not a French thing. Not an American thing, not a Canadian thing, not a Danish thing, but a global thing, which also kind of underscored the need of our book. And I think that is super fascinating. And again, if then he didn’t make a good wine. That whole thing will fizzle out without a year or two.

Natalie MacLean 00:31:42 Because it reminds me of the Super Tuscans, you know? They disrupted the whole category. So what did Sasha Lavin do? He got an English name, a beautiful English name, whispering Angel. But what else specifically did he do to market this so cleverly?

Rasmus Emborg & Jens Honoré 00:31:56 Rasmus actually said to his client, it’s just five kilometers from my own vineyard.

Rasmus Emborg & Jens Honoré 00:32:00 So before digging into this and before starting the actual research of this book, I visited him a number of times. He’s definitely part of the fascination and curiosity that led to the idea of making this book. And I think actually the story of Sasha. Lucien is very representative of the whole story because, I mean, he comes out of a very famous wine family from Bordeaux.

Natalie MacLean 00:32:24 Is he related to Alexis Levine?

Rasmus Emborg & Jens Honoré 00:32:26 Yes, that’s his father.

Natalie MacLean 00:32:28 Oh. And what was he famous for? Just as a famous Bordeaux winemaker. Did he write a famous book, too?

Rasmus Emborg & Jens Honoré 00:32:33 He wrote some famous wine books, and he’s been giving credit to actually being the one who introduced American audience to French wine. Godfather kind of image. Yeah, and he had a castle in Margaux, and. Well, he died. Alexis and Sasha, his son, inherited his wine castle. And a few years later, he sold it.

Natalie MacLean 00:32:55 Whoa. That’s a big move. Wow.

Rasmus Emborg & Jens Honoré 00:32:57 And he spent the money on purchasing Chateau de slang down in Provence, at that time a low status wine region.

Rasmus Emborg & Jens Honoré 00:33:06 And he said to the whole world, I want to make Brazil wine an equally low status wine. And the wine establishment was shaking their heads and said, what are you doing? And the gin. He didn’t care. He said, I want to turn it into a real wine. And yeah, as Jens is showing here and everyone looked at us like we were completely crazy. I guess we were, he tells us, when when we when we talk to him to cut his show on today. Nobody is shaking their heads. Nobody’s laughing at Sachin because he is together with domain art. I mean, he is probably one of the most true pioneers of this process of evolution. And I think it’s important to emphasize that he’s been good at marketing. He’s a good trade man, but he’s done it on the foundation of a good product. He had a good nose for what was the demand of the wine consumers of the future. He saw that champagne was rising, and he saw the popularity of Sauvignon blanc from New Zealand and other areas.

Rasmus Emborg & Jens Honoré 00:34:12 I mean.

Natalie MacLean 00:34:13 Taking off.

Rasmus Emborg & Jens Honoré 00:34:14 The fruity, crispy wine. And he thought, well, these two, things I can try to capture in a good rosé wine. And he invested in his production from the beginning, believing that he could hire the price point and that he could produce a wine that could be more than 10 Or €20. You definitely took a risk. But he invested in a lot of technology in his cellar. I just showed you a picture from down there. I mean, we’ve been following the production, and when the grapes come in from the vineyards, they are being picked. And if a grape is not of a decent quality, it’s taken away. He’s meticulous in every level of the production. He has hired the standard, and he teamed up with a winemaker that he knew from Bordeaux, and that was also willing to put all his expertise and experience into developing this high quality wine. So I think it’s important to say that he saw a demand. He created the product to meet the demand.

Rasmus Emborg & Jens Honoré 00:35:27 And on top of that, he’s a good businessman. That has helped him selling the wine. And today, I mean, whispering Angel is not only a wine, it’s a phenomenon.

Natalie MacLean 00:35:36 Yeah it is.

Rasmus Emborg & Jens Honoré 00:35:37 It really is in the US. It’s the best selling French wine. Also, if you include red and white wine, it’s the most popular rosé wine in the whole world.

Natalie MacLean 00:35:46 Wow. Okay. Well, there you have it. I hope you enjoyed our chat with Jens and Rasmus. Here are my takeaways. Number one, how did rosé get a bad reputation as not being a real wine? As Younes and Rasmus explain, rosé wine is made from red wine grapes, and it’s the skin that gives the color and tannin to the wine. And if you let the wine ferment with the skins on, you end up with a red wine. But if you let the wine bleed off or siphon off the palest portion, then the ratio between the juice and skin that remains is changed, and you get an even more powerful red wine.

Natalie MacLean 00:36:29 And that was the way that the rosé wine was produced as an afterthought, that first pale wine that was siphoned off, rather than with the intention to make rosé wine from the beginning. And that is part of why rosé has had a bad reputation in the past, because it was considered just a byproduct. Number two, how did Marcel ORT of Domaines ORT revolutionize the world of rosé wine? Marcel was fascinated by rosé because he thought that this wine expressed and showed the taste of the grapes, most precisely at the time and for many years after, rosé wine was a byproduct. As I just mentioned, it was the result of the Sonja or bleeding method. The first juice that came out. But Marcel was the first one to choose the variety of grapes that produced the best rosé. To position the vineyards in the best possible way, to make good rosé, and to choose the harvest time with the ambition again to make the best possible rosé from the outset. Number three why is Grenache a popular grape for making trendy pale rosés.

Natalie MacLean 00:37:38 Grenache is a grape with very thin skins and very little pigments, so it brings very little color to the wine. And that is what a lot of rosé producers are aiming for. This is the kind of rosé wine that is been really trendy in the past few years. It’s pale, crisp and dry. What we call the Provencal style, but also Grenache has a natural sweetness that also is part of the rosé wine category. And number four how do rosés beautiful bottles both help and hurt its reputation? Rosé, with its beautiful color and a transparent, creatively designed bottle, looks great on liquor store shelves. It also looks beautiful on Instagram. Jens and Rasmus think this is part of the popularity of the wine, but at the same time, it’s part of why some of the wine establishment thinks that it’s a bad wine, too trendy, too To marketing oriented, etc. but there’s another consideration. It’s much easier to recycle brown glass from bottles than clear. So there’s an environmental issue, and that’s why the authors think this will influence producers in the future.

Natalie MacLean 00:38:48 And I might add, there’s also that possibility of light strike affecting 30% of wines in clear glass. So I think there’s a lot of reasons to migrate away from the clear glass, as beautiful as it looks. In the show notes, you’ll find a full transcript of my conversation with Jens and Rasmus. Links to their websites and book the video versions of these conversations on Facebook and YouTube live, and where you can order my book online now, no matter where you live. If you missed episode 80, go back and take a listen. I chat about the rosé lifestyle with wine writer Jill Bath. I’ll share a short clip with you now to whet your appetite.

Rasmus Emborg & Jens Honoré 00:39:31 There is a preference for a pale rosé. I think that that’s the consumer’s idea, that it embodies freshness and lightness. There also seems to be a misconception that it’s going to be sweeter if it’s darker, and that’s not true at all. I’ve heard people I’m sharing wine with, and they’ll see a dark rosé and they’ll think, oh, I don’t like sweet wines, but it’s to do with the varieties of the grape and how long that juice has.

Rasmus Emborg & Jens Honoré 00:39:55 Any amount of skin contact.

Natalie MacLean 00:39:57 That makes total sense.

Rasmus Emborg & Jens Honoré 00:39:58 People do seem to like the light ones these days for, I think, reasons of aesthetics. Not necessarily that it influences the flavor as much as you might think.

Natalie MacLean 00:40:06 Sure. And is there anything to the fact that if it’s a darker rosé, it’s going to be more full bodied? Did it get more skin contact, therefore more flavor? Or is that to a generalization that doesn’t always play out?

Rasmus Emborg & Jens Honoré 00:40:19 It probably doesn’t always play out, but it would hold true that darker skinned grapes that experience more skin contact during the winemaking are going to impart more of that color.

Natalie MacLean 00:40:34 You won’t want to miss next week when we continue our chat with Rasmus and Yens. If you liked this episode or learned even one thing from it, please email or tell one friend about the podcast this week, especially someone you know who’d be interested in learning more about rosé wines. And I have to admit, rosé is my personal go to. It’s what I’m drinking mostly these days and have been for quite some time.

Natalie MacLean 00:40:58 It’s easy to find the podcast, just tell them to search for Natalie MacLean Wine on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, their favorite podcast app, or they can listen to the show on my website at Natalie MacLean. Com forward slash podcast. Email me if you have a SIP tip question, or if you’d like to win one of three copies of wines in a Cold Climate. I’d also love to hear your thoughts on this episode, or if you’ve read my book or are listening to it. Email me at Nathalie at Natalie MacLean. Com in the show notes, you’ll find a link to take a free online food and wine pairing class with me called the five Wine and Food Pairing Mistakes That Can Ruin Your Dinner and How to Fix Them Forever at Natalie MacLean. And that’s all in the show notes at Natalie MacLean 336. Thank you for taking the time to join me here. I hope something great is in your glass this week. Perhaps a rosé from domains I. Don’t want to miss one juicy episode of this podcast, especially the secret full bodied bonus episodes that I don’t announce on social media.

Natalie MacLean 00:42:11 So subscribe for free now at Natalie MacLean. Meet me here next week.

Natalie MacLean 00:42:19 Cheers!

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