How Does the Biggest Misconception About Spanish Wine Make It a Hidden Gem for Wine Lovers? Sarah Jane Evans Reveals This and More in Her New Book

Natalie MacLean 00:00:00 How does the biggest misconception about Spanish wine make it a hidden gem for wine lovers? How did Spain’s civil war and period of dictatorship delay the growth of its wine culture? And what makes the vineyards of prior art challenging to walk and unforgettable to visit? In today’s episode, you’ll hear the stories and tips that answer those questions in our chat with Sarah Jane Evans, author of the terrific new book The Wines of Central and Southern Spain From Catalonia to Cadiz. By the end of our conversation, you’ll also discover how the memory of her parents bottling wine at home influenced Sarah Jane’s perception of wine. What the Oxford versus Cambridge University varsity blind wine tasting match is. Sarah Jane’s experience as a judge at wine competitions in Japan, and why the country’s peaches were the perfect thing to eat after tasting so many wines. Why Sarah Jane chose to write her Master of Wine dissertation on the alchemists of Sherry. And what are the alchemists of Sherry? The significance of Sarah Jane’s choice to use first names when writing about winemakers. The hallmark characteristics of Spanish orange wines.

Natalie MacLean 00:01:14 Why Sarah Jane considers Spain to be the most exciting country in Europe for wine. How winemakers are reviving old vineyards in Spain and what makes Monastero Wines unique.

Natalie MacLean 00:01:32 Do you have a thirst to learn about wine? Do you love stories about wonderfully obsessive people, hauntingly beautiful places, and amusingly awkward social situations? Oh, that’s the blend here on the Unreserved Wine Talk podcast. I’m your host, Natalie MacLean, and each week I share with you unfiltered conversations with celebrities in the wine world, as well as confessions from my own tipsy journey as I write my third book on this subject. I’m so glad you’re here. Now pass me that bottle, please, and let’s get started.

Natalie MacLean 00:02:14 Welcome to episode 358.

Natalie MacLean 00:02:17 On CTV’s.

Natalie MacLean 00:02:18 Your.

Natalie MacLean 00:02:18 Morning.

Natalie MacLean 00:02:19 This week we chatted about.

Natalie MacLean 00:02:20 How Paul.

Natalie MacLean 00:02:20 Is.

Natalie MacLean 00:02:21 Here.

Natalie MacLean 00:02:21 And with it comes cozy nights and hearty comfort foods and the perfect excuse to explore some fantastic wines and whiskeys that capture the season’s essence. For me, fall is like nature’s fashion week. The leaves are strutting their colors and these wines and whiskies are also working the runway of our dinner table.

Natalie MacLean 00:02:40 They’re ready to steal the show. From alcohol free celebrations to bold spirits that warm your soul. We’re covering all the bases for your autumn entertaining and Happy Thanksgiving to Canadian listeners. I hope you find some of these recommendations worthy of your table this upcoming weekend.

Let’s start with something that’s perfect for those who want a celebration without the hangover. The Nozeco Alcohol-Free Rosé Sparkling Wine proves that you don’t need alcohol to have bubbles with personality. They’re made in France, just like traditional wine, and after fermentation, the alcohol is gently removed so that you still get the flavour. The sparkling white is a blend of 90% Muscat and 10% Chardonnay grapes, offering notes of fresh flowers, while the rosé is bursting with strawberry aromas and made from the Arran grape. What’s brilliant is that they’ve cut calories by 75%. It’s like having your cake and eating it too, except you’re having your wine and drinking it too. So I think you could also have cake. Anyway, I pair this with honey-glazed acorn squash soup with toasted pumpkin seeds floating on a cloud of crème fraîche, or perhaps some warm baked Brie wrapped in golden puff pastry with cranberry compote.

Natalie MacLean 00:03:57 Now let’s move on to something with a lot of history and great taste—an Italian gem. It’s the Riunite Lambrusco Reggiano 1950 DOC Amabile, an Italian sparkling red that’s all about fun from the moment that you pour it, with its intense ruby colour to that gorgeous purplish foam. It’s a surprise party for your taste buds. Essentially, it floods your senses with these ripe raspberry and strawberry aromas and then delivers a beautifully balanced, medium-sweet palate that’s absolutely perfect with food. This is your ultimate gastronomic wine. No need to save it for a special occasion, as it will make any evening special. Tuesday night pasta deserves just as much love as your anniversary dinner. It’s made in Emilia-Romagna, the same region famous for Parmesan cheese, prosciutto di Parma, and lasagna. This wine was designed to pair with a wide range of dishes, even spicy foods. And although Riunite has been the best-selling Lambrusco worldwide for years, it’s still made by the same group of small wineries that have been passed down from one generation to the next.

Natalie MacLean 00:05:06 This wine has a rich history but remains modern and stylish. I pair this with slow-braised short ribs in a rich tomato ragù, served over fresh tagliatelle that’s been tossed until each strand glistens. Or maybe some spicy chicken tikka masala with warm naan bread that’s been brushed with garlic butter and herbs.

I’m moving on to South America now. What makes this Argentine wine special for fall? Well, it’s Argentina’s number one best-selling Malbec brand worldwide—in a country that’s famous for Malbec. And I think once you taste it, you’ll understand why. The grapes for Trivento Malbec Reserve are grown in the most prestigious regions of the country, and Malbec, the grape, really thrives in their high-altitude vineyards in the foothills of the Andes, where the temperature difference between day and night creates incredible complexity. Mother Nature has created the perfect spa retreat for grapes—hot days, cool nights, mountain views. Yes, please. This wine shows an intense red colour with aromas of ripe cherry and red currant, with a whisper of vanilla smoke on the finish.

Natalie MacLean 00:06:15 I’d pair it with grilled portobello mushrooms stuffed with herb quinoa and topped with melted aged cheddar that bubbles and browns perfectly. Or perhaps some dark chocolate chili that’s been simmering for hours with tender chunks of beef and a hint of cinnamon.

Now let’s head over to Chile for another delicious red. The Casillero del Diablo Cabernet Sauvignon bursts with juicy blackberry and cherry flavours layered with some spice. It’s bold enough for steak, but easy drinking on its own with a velvety mouthfeel. It’s kind of the wine equivalent of that perfect little black dress—works with everything, makes you look sophisticated without trying too hard. At least that’s what I hope for in little black dresses anyway. Casillero del Diablo has one of the most legendary stories in the business. More than 100 years ago, Don Melchor de Concha y Toro noticed his best wines were mysteriously disappearing. So he spread a rumour that the devil himself lived in his cellar to scare away thieves. It worked so well that the cellar became known as Casillero del Diablo, “The Cellar of the Devil,” which is a great tie-in for your Halloween celebrations coming up soon.

Natalie MacLean 00:07:23 I’d pair this with coffee-crusted ribeye steak and roasted root vegetables that have been caramelized to perfection in the oven, or maybe some aged cheddar and charcuterie with crusty sourdough bread that’s been warmed and drizzled with local honey.

And finally, something uniquely Canadian that’s perfect for this season — the new Forty Creek Cinnamon Bun Cream, pure Ontario magic in a bottle from the award-winning Forty Creek Distillery in Niagara, where master blender Bill Ashburn was named Master Blender of the Year. This cream liqueur captures all the cosy comfort of a freshly baked cinnamon bun — very comforting. Crafted with fresh dairy cream and Ontario whisky, it offers seductive notes of vanilla and cinnamon. It’s basically autumn in liquid form.

And here’s a fun fact: October 4th is National Cinnamon Bun Day. Not that we need official permission to eat cinnamon buns, but I wholeheartedly support this level of cinnamon bun recognition in our society. The Forty Creek Cinnamon Bun Cream Liqueur is also incredible in an espresso martini, traditionally topped with three coffee beans representing wealth, health, and happiness. I’d pair this with warm apple crisp topped with vanilla bean ice cream that slowly melts into creamy pools.

Natalie MacLean 00:08:43 Or perhaps some spiced pumpkin cheesecake with a graham cracker crust that crumbles perfectly with each forkful. Of course, there’s also the classic cinnamon buns for a plate-to-glass connection. Sometimes the stars align so that your drink perfectly matches your dessert, restoring your faith in the cosmic order of the universe.

You’ll also find these drinks on Instagram while I’m at Natalie MacLean Wine, so follow me there. I’ll follow you back. And I’ve posted links to these wines and whiskies in the show. Notes at Natalie MacLean. Com slash 358. I thought I’d add a new short section to the podcast about what’s new in the world of wine, including trends, studies and news both in Canada and around the world. Personally, I’m curious about what’s happening and often these tidbits are great conversation starters. So what’s new trend wise? Across Canada and probably worldwide, local wine is riding a new wave of customer loyalty. For instance, some Ontario producers report double digit gains in DTC direct consumer orders this month compared to last year. Vintners Quality Alliance VQA wines are up 65% in the Lcbo.

Natalie MacLean 00:09:59 Younger drinkers are showing the biggest uptick in support of small producer VQA wines, often driven by recommendations from friends or store staff in bars and restaurants. 57% of consumers say that they’ve enjoyed Canadian wine at least once in 2025. Let’s try to get that up a little bit, people, but that is encouraging given what it used to be. The surprise hit category this fall low alcohol wines at 8% ABV or alcohol by volume from all countries are flying off shelves faster than anyone predicted, with consumers treating them less like training wheels, wine, and more like a sophisticated lifestyle Choice. South of the border, the US wine market continues its great color shift away from traditional reds, with white wine now claiming over 50% of the retail volume market. I feel that’s happening in Canada and probably other countries too. Though I don’t have a market study yet to back that up. The campaign come over October, originally created by Karen McNeil, author of The Wine Bible, is gearing up across both Canada and the US. It’s designed to encourage people to invite friends, family and neighbors over for a glass of wine or two.

Natalie MacLean 00:11:13 It’s about shared moments and home rituals, not just wine tasting. And I’ll be chatting more about that on city TV’s breakfast television on October 23rd. Wine brands are also pushing Micro Moments small, context based campaigns. So think wine after soccer practice or Sunday wine down pour. Are popping up more often on social channels. One of the underlying themes fewer mass pushes, more niche personal storytelling tailored to small audiences. Also, wineries are quietly experimenting with augmented reality labels, so scanning a bottle with your phone and seeing a short video from the winemaker maybe behind the scene. Harvest diaries, family histories, or even TikTok style behind the scenes content from those who are making your wine. In marketing, California’s Silver Oak Winery collaborated with the fashion designer Jackson Wieder Hoff, who died all of his runway clothing with their 2020 Alexander Valley Cabernet Sauvignon for New York Fashion Week. That is expensive. Silver Oak is probably between 100 and $200 per bottle, depending on which one you’re getting. Sounds messy, but somehow it worked, earning them features in magazines such as Harper’s Bazaar, Wine Enthusiast, and well on this podcast.

Natalie MacLean 00:12:38 So that’s it. What do you think? Would you like me to continue this week’s news and trends in the wine world? Email me at Natalie at Natalie MacLean. Com if you’d like me to continue or to stop. Back to today’s episode. We’re focusing on the central and southern regions of Spain today, but we won’t be chatting about Rioja in north central Spain as we dedicated episodes 303 and 304 to that region with Andrew Lechmere. Two of you are going to win a copy of Sarah Jane Evan’s wonderful new book, The Wines of Central and Southern Spain From Catalonia to Cadiz. If you’d like to win a copy, please email me and let me know. Hey, I’d like to win and it doesn’t matter where you live. For example, congratulations to the two recent winners of Doctor Alex Altman’s new book, Taste the Limestone, Smell the Slate A geologist wanders through the world of wine Joanna Dubravka from London, England, and Deb, Padre of Kamloops, B.C., are the lucky winners, and I also have two copies of Doctor Tuffy Meador Meyer’s book The Wines of Brazil.

Natalie MacLean 00:13:42 To give away its gorgeous color pictures and everything you want to know. It’s a great reference book to have as well, so I’ll choose four winners randomly from those who contact me at Natalie at Natalie MacLean. Com. Keep them for yourself or give them as gifts. No one will know what a cheapskate you are. I’m kidding, I’m kidding. Okay, on with the show. Sarah Jane Evans is an award winning writer and a contributing editor to decanter magazine. She fell in love with Spain after spending some months there before going to Cambridge University, where she studied the classics and later social and political sciences. Her books include The Wines of Central and Southern Spain, The Wines of Northern Spain, the Wines of Central and Southern Spain, Seville, as well as Chocolate Unwrapped as a bonus, and also she’s provided entries on Spain and Sherry for the annual Hugh Johnson Pocket Guide to Wine. Sarah Jane received the Royal Order of Isabella the Catholic, awarded by the King of Spain, and she has been the chairman of the Institute of Masters of Wine and president of the Guild of Food Writers.

Natalie MacLean 00:14:57 Outside her wine life, I don’t know how she has any time outside of that, but she is a founder member of the Academy of Chocolate. Your life sounds like so much fun. Sarah Jane, welcome. I’m so glad you’re here with us.

Sarah Jane Evans 00:15:09 It’s really, really a pleasure to be here. And for me. We’re talking originally on a Friday afternoon, and so it’s the weekend. I have a glass of wine here, and I can smell that my husband is cooking a spicy Indian dish for supper. On Friday evenings, we always do something spicy.

Natalie MacLean 00:15:26 So what are you going to pair with that spicy dish? Something from Spain.

Sarah Jane Evans 00:15:30 I’m sure we can talk about it, but it’s the key thing is that it’s an orange wine. I think you can see from the color. And something that they do in Catalonia really well is these orange wines from white grapes. But with using the skins, it’s not a chilled white wine like you would have a Sauvignon blanc. It’s sort of more texture and it’s great with spicy food.

Natalie MacLean 00:15:51 That sounds so good. You’ve already whetted our appetites. Before we dive into your very distinguished career, tell us about the wine your parents used to bottle at home.

Sarah Jane Evans 00:16:02 Well, I’d like to think this was a moment that took me on a career. And I ended up where you and I, we could never get to talking together, but in fact, I guess it was nothing to do with that. And when I was about, I think it must be about nine. And my brother was 11 when my father got together with some friends and shipped a barrel of this liquid to our house, and the car was taken out of the garage and the barrel was put in the garage and stayed there sleeping for about three months. And then on a given Saturday, all these adults turned up and the men used a piece of rubber piping to take the this red liquid out of the barrel and put it into bottles and put corks in. And then the wives made paste, glue and glued on labels. And then what I particularly remember is that after having a lunch which my mother had made and I still live in this family home.

Sarah Jane Evans 00:16:59 So that’s why it’s so resonant to me now, because I can imagine it all. They all went to sleep on the grass in front of me, so there was clearly an association between this red liquid and this going to sleep afterwards. And I think we’ve all learned that since there is an association between the two. So I was reflecting on the other day and I said to my brother, what is this thing? It seemed like a huge barrel. I remember I was only nine, but in fact he said it was from the Rhone, so it was probably about. It was a 2 to 5 liter barrel. Probably. I mean, it probably wasn’t very large, but it seemed to me enormous at the time. So having done that once or twice, they when they went on, it became quite a thing until of course, well, this maybe ages me. At a certain point those wines had to be sold bottled in the chateau. So you couldn’t ship over barrels in the same way. So I think that’s a historical one.

Sarah Jane Evans 00:17:52 Yeah. Events that you wouldn’t do that.

Natalie MacLean 00:17:54 I’m not sure that would have turned me on as a nine year old. Oh, you drink this and then you have to go to sleep. Fun for adults. Not so much for kids who want to stay up. But then again, maybe you did after they went to sleep and you had more fun. That’s a great story. No, you judged the Paul Roget Varsity wine competition. What was that?

Sarah Jane Evans 00:18:13 Well, it’s fascinating. Every year the universities of Oxford and Cambridge. So when they have a competition between themselves, it’s rather. How can I say it sounds rather elitist, but it’s called the varsity competition. And whether that’s rowing or cricket or now they have wine. And so the wine competition is a blind tasting. And I represent because I went to Cambridge University, I represent a Cambridge judge. And then there’s the Oxford judges, Jancis Robinson. And she went there. And these students come who are either undergraduates or they’re doing postgraduate degrees, and they had to do a blind tasting, and we have to do it as well.

Sarah Jane Evans 00:18:50 And I have to say, having finished all my exams for as a master of wine, I’m really blind tasting. So not fun. They really put you on sports. So these students come along and they write terrific tasting notes, and you think some of them will only have been studying wine for a couple of terms because they’ve gone to university to study chemistry or English or whatever. So then we have to do speed tasting, blind tasting, and then we have to mark their papers and what they then get, if you’re a lucky winner, is you get a magnum of Paul Roget or you get the champagne bottles. It is fascinating to see this very international competition. I’m very pleased to say in the last few years Cambridge has come top. So well done. But it’s nothing to do with me, I think. But it is interesting and as a student, I know, you know, it’s always sort of students drink a lot of cider or beer, but I didn’t really drink either of those. We might come to Sherry because I drank a bit of that and I didn’t seriously drink wine.

Sarah Jane Evans 00:19:50 And so it’s quite fascinating to me to be now with students who are absolutely expert in the Grand Crus of Burgundy. And all of that went to me. It’s, you know, it was only something I came to much later.

Natalie MacLean 00:20:03 So do they get out early in the morning like the rowers do, and they’re like drinking. And how do they train for this?

Natalie MacLean 00:20:09 Or is it just like training for a master of wine program?

Sarah Jane Evans 00:20:13 It is a bit, in fact, for the Cambridge team, there is a master of wine who’s a very interesting guy, William Lowe, and he’s an MW, but he is also he runs a gin distillery in Cambridge, so he’s also a distiller as well as a master of wine. And when he passed the Master Wine Examiner, we had the graduation. He bottled up cocktails, gin based cocktails for the party, and we had never been so drunk in our lives. It was a really, really great event and in the centre of the serious City of London. So but for a lot of them, they’ve only recently come from school, wherever they were in the world, and they’ve only had a couple of terms to learn.

Sarah Jane Evans 00:20:53 I’ve been really, really impressed by Sunday afternoons, you know, sometimes in the evenings they. But I suspect it’s a very nice escape from the studying, you know, intensely, whatever your exam topic is.

Natalie MacLean 00:21:06 Absolutely. I don’t know.

Natalie MacLean 00:21:07 What the drinking.

Natalie MacLean 00:21:08 Age is in the UK, but they would barely have.

Natalie MacLean 00:21:10 Come of age to be legally drinking.

Natalie MacLean 00:21:13 Let.

Natalie MacLean 00:21:13 Alone competing.

Sarah Jane Evans 00:21:15 That’s very true.

Natalie MacLean 00:21:16 Very well, you’ve set the tone off, right? With people falling asleep after wine and then getting drunk. But we know moderation is what we all strive for. But I love those stories now. You had an experience of going to Japan and eating their delicacies, or I’ll let you tell a story. What do you drink wine wise, after eating in Japan?

Sarah Jane Evans 00:21:37 The reason I go to Japan, I always, always wanted to go. And people say, well, you must go in the spring for the cherry blossom. But in fact, what takes me to Japan is I’ve been invited as an international guest to go and judge at the Japan Wine Competition, which is to judge wines made from grapes grown in Japan.

Sarah Jane Evans 00:21:54 A good half of them are Merlot, Cabernet, Sauvignon blanc, all the things we recognize. And then there’s Koshu, which is now really up and coming as a variety that I think we’re all coming to understand is something really quite special as a white wine. And then there’s a mixture of something that North America has quite a lot of which is hybrids made to cope with the climate. And some of them are lovely and Some.

Natalie MacLean 00:22:20 Of them are very hybrid. Yes.

Sarah Jane Evans 00:22:22 Yes. That’s a nice way. One thing that’s really nice is that the judging takes place in the area very close to Mount Fuji. So Fuji San, as it’s called. So it’s a Yamanashi? It’s the area just. It’s about an hour outside Tokyo. And when you have finished judging this year, I was doing Koshu and rosé wines. You finish. And what do they bring out? Now, if you were in Australia and you were judging at a former wine competition, they bring you beer. Everybody. You bring drinks, bottles of beer, which is not really my thing, but it is the thing for refreshing.

Sarah Jane Evans 00:22:53 After a wine tasting at an Australian competition, they bring you trays of peaches, cut up peaches and I have to say that Japan has the most beautiful peaches that I’ve ever tasted. And there’s something about the Yamanashi peaches. I’ve now become really geeky, expecting peaches that are very juicy but quite firm, and they don’t just collapse on themselves. So the sense of sucking on and then eating this peach with the juice running down your chin after a day of tasting is the most wonderful thing. Oh, definitely. The peach season is quite long in Japan, so if you’re visiting in Japan and you miss the cherry blossom, don’t worry because you’ve got the whole summer to eat the peaches. Oh, there’s nothing to eat.

Natalie MacLean 00:23:39 Absolutely lovely. And I guess gentle on the taste buds after torturing them with a wine judging. Was Saki part of that competition?

Sarah Jane Evans 00:23:47 Well, Saki is something that you know you do afterwards. You get winemakers who take you out and you go out and have amazing Saki evenings. I have to confess.

Sarah Jane Evans 00:23:55 And it’s only between the two of us that actually Saki is not really my thing, but I’m not a whiskey drinker either. And it may be that I have spent so long studying wine, being involved in wine, enjoying wine, and visiting vineyards and so on that Saki. I don’t have space for it in my life, but I think, you know, I can see now that you know the wine and spirit Spirits Education Trust is doing qualifications in saké. There are lots of people who are doing it. There are saké sommeliers about. Interestingly, saké is one of those drinks you can serve warm. I’m not great with warm drinks either, right?

Natalie MacLean 00:24:27 That’s why I love rosé. It might be an age thing, I don’t know, but I love it chilled. It’s so refreshing.

Sarah Jane Evans 00:24:34 It’s true. Often on Friday evenings, we go down to the bar down the road and I have a rosé because I don’t want to think about anything complicated or write tasting notes or think about the wine making. But because I can guarantee to you that it will be really cold.

Sarah Jane Evans 00:24:49 The red wine may be a bit warm. It may have sat on the shelf for a long time, and if it’s a warm day, much I agree with you. I’d much rather have a rosé.

Natalie MacLean 00:24:57 Swimming in warm rose red school. Now, you were awarded the Officer’s Cross of Isabella the Catholic from the King of Spain. That sounds very highfalutin. What is that award? And tell us why you received it.

Sarah Jane Evans 00:25:10 I was very, very touched. You can imagine to receive that. So I first went to Spain just before I went to Cambridge University. That was just the right time in my life. I fell in love with it, with the people, the food, the culture, the history, everything. So since then, then we had some very dear friends who became godparents to our children, and we went back and back and back for holidays. So I was gradually able to skew my career towards doing as much as possible with Spain. Until the end. I became a member of the work I did with Wines of Spain and member of the Grand Order and the Caballeros Silvino, the Great Order of Knights of Spain, which basically means that in London once a year we can dress up in glamorous red clothes and velvet caps and have a great dinner.

Sarah Jane Evans 00:25:58 And so I think for all the things I’ve done, the activities in Spain and so much work in the UK, and actually all around the world, including the US and Canada, I was given they wrote to me and said we were going to get this decoration. Now I’ve just stuck with it, especially here today. So I have a tiny yellow and white button here, which is super discreet and that’s my order. But in fact, if we were doing this in the evening, we would just up in black tie. I would have the most enormous yellow ribbon with a middle. I mean, it’s a really, really terrific yellow white stripe medal. So it’s something that has been awarded and named after the most famous queen of Spain, and it was created as an award for foreigners, effectively non Spaniards who did great things for Spain. So it’s a civil decoration and it’s something I wear with a lot of pride because you can’t apply for it. What you get instead is a terrific certificate, lovely medal.

Sarah Jane Evans 00:26:56 And then we had a marvelous dinner in the Spanish Embassy in London. And it’s just a little thing I must say about the Spanish Embassy in London. We had a dinner for 40 people around an enormous table, and this table apparently was designed for the Titanic. Oh, but was too big to get through whatever the doorway was. And was never delivered to the Titanic. So if you are ever able to get an invitation to the Spanish Embassy in London in Belgrave Square, you’ll see this fabulous table.

Natalie MacLean 00:27:24 I’d love to see that. I guess it makes it a lucky table or an unlucky, I don’t know, but. Well, I’m not sure. Wow.

Sarah Jane Evans 00:27:31 Memorable at least. Yes.

Natalie MacLean 00:27:33 Well, that sounds well deserved, Sarah Jane. I mean, just all the work you’ve done.

Sarah Jane Evans 00:27:37 I should mention this just because it’s the day. I wouldn’t normally wear this all the time, but I work quite a bit. It’s my master wine batch. So we have a little little bear, and I’m wearing it today because the exam results came out today.

Sarah Jane Evans 00:27:48 And so there are some lucky people who will know that they’re one step closer to their qualification. But the reason I mention it is if you happen to pass somebody in the street or on one of it who is a master wine and wearing this, do stop them, because on the back this has a number engraved which is your number. And so I was the So 291st MW and I think we’ve now got ourselves up to 400 and something.

Natalie MacLean 00:28:14 It’s still not a lot.

Sarah Jane Evans 00:28:16 It’s not a lot. But stop me and try one. So, you know, do ask people to turn it over. If you see them where.

Natalie MacLean 00:28:22 It’s like a limited number poster or painting or something. Yes. There aren’t very many MW s in the world. It’s very prestigious, as is your a word from Spain. So you’ve already hinted at this. You know why you were drawn to Spanish wine? So your Master of wine dissertation on Sherry, the alchemist of Sherry. I’m translating because if I try to do this in Spanish, I will butcher it.

Natalie MacLean 00:28:42 Tell us what the alchemists of Sherry were, if you can, at a high level. And how did that shape your future work?

Sarah Jane Evans 00:28:47 It’s a very exciting thing, but I fear that the way I’m going to describe it is a little bit geeky. But there were a very important group of people who also happened in other parts of the fortified wine world, so in Madeira and in port as well, but particularly in Madeira and the Amazon. And they are effectively small private individuals who had their own cellars with sherry barrels in it, or with wine, which they made for aging. And the idea was that they never sold their wine to the public. But what they did do was to sell it to the wineries, to people like Gonzalez, Byers, Lusa, the famous names, and then those companies sell the wines. So we never really knew about these guys, and some of them were very good. There was a little supplier who was always going to be great. And then I guess it was, shall I say, last century.

Sarah Jane Evans 00:29:42 It was some time ago. Lewistown, very famous and lovely company, started a project, a really lovely project, saying what we will do is we will select, let us say, I think it was about 12 of these little companies, and we will bottle them up a little. We’ll say Lewistown on the label, but underneath it will say the name of the family or the name of the person who’s actually cared for this one. And so it recognized the first time the quality. When you write any kind of research paper for the master, why? And then wanting you to do something original and nobody had done any research into it. So the first thing you do when you’re telling you the institution master, why you’re going to do this piece of research, they say, well, you need to give us all the things that have been published about this. And you say, well, there’s nothing being published. It is it is all original. But it was a really, really lovely thing to do.

Sarah Jane Evans 00:30:32 And it enabled me to get closer, much closer to. I spend a lot of time in her breath and get much closer to people where I just fell in love with the place, but not just me. So while I was in her rest, doing interviews and so on, on a number of occasions, my husband always came. He’s my, how can I say chauffeur, bag, carrier companion, fellow drinker, our small daughters who were small then, so Richard would be with them by the swimming pool when they had fabulous weeks in the By swimming pool generally and eating tapas. And then I would go and do the interview. I think that’s what’s always been great about my life in wine, and I’m sure the same for you is that actually, while you are in these exceptional places, tasting wine, talking to people and so on, at the same time, they are really culturally very interesting and their food is fascinating and countryside is terrific. Even looking at the view behind you, for instance, it’s painting history.

Natalie MacLean 00:31:31 Yes.

Sarah Jane Evans 00:31:32 Exactly. They are wonderful, wonderful places. So as I said, when I first went to Spain, before I went to university, and then I just kept going back and back. And for many people in Europe, the place they go to is France. But unfortunately for the French, I say unfortunately for the French. 516 I did an exchange for a week, a single simple week. I went over to France for a week to Paris. Lucky me. And then somebody from Paris parents came back and I really disliked it from beginning to end. I thought the food was terrible. I really dislike that French French food.

Natalie MacLean 00:32:09 It’s renowned for a wall.

Sarah Jane Evans 00:32:12 And so I’ve always been like that. I’m afraid so. It’s been like that for the French. It’s very unfortunate, but it has been to the bonus of the Spaniards, where I’ve always had such pleasure seeking out delicious things there.

Natalie MacLean 00:32:26 Yeah, I can see your path now. Now, just for those who may not be familiar with I said Sherry, which is both a wine style and a town.

Natalie MacLean 00:32:35 And you said it in Spanish, which is like with a t h, but it’s j e r e z. So it’s like Jose that you don’t. It’s no hard j head f. So just if folks are wondering what you’re referring to, but.

Sarah Jane Evans 00:32:50 Talking.

Natalie MacLean 00:32:51 About. Exactly. So in the book, your book you write with warmth about using first names for winemakers. Speaking of names, When you’ve scrambled over rocks together, surnames are redundant. Can you share a moment with us when that sort of friendship crystallized for you?

Sarah Jane Evans 00:33:09 Yeah, I can think of a couple. And I particularly mention it because there’s a rather formal way of writing that I have to do. If you write a newspaper, it’s very obvious. And the magazines, too, that you introduce Natalie MacLean on the first occasion and then thereafter. This person is called McLean, even though it’s Natalie. And yet all these people I know so well, so I can think particularly of visiting prior or prior art as it is also spoken.

Sarah Jane Evans 00:33:36 Prior art is very famous, first of all, for having slate soils, so it’s very crumbly and they are extremely steep. The vines grow as bush vines on these extremely steep. They’re called Costa’s.

Natalie MacLean 00:33:49 So they’re not.

Sarah Jane Evans 00:33:50 Trained on slope.

Natalie MacLean 00:33:51 Wire.

Sarah Jane Evans 00:33:51 Trellises. Each one is very individual reform bush.

Natalie MacLean 00:33:55 Yeah.

Sarah Jane Evans 00:33:56 There’s a lovely company called Mass Storage. Once you get into Catalonia, the pronunciation is difficult. It’s spelled Deutsch, but that’s Deutsch and Valenti. Llagostera is from that company. They make exceptional wines, and he on more than one occasion, because he doesn’t give up. I can get actually, I can get up one of these steep slopes. But the problem is coming down when the soil is crumbling and your desire is to hang on to the bushes. And yet, you know, if you if you pull up one of these bushes, you’re going to uproot 100 because it’s.

Natalie MacLean 00:34:29 Iron or something.

Sarah Jane Evans 00:34:30 Absolutely. And you know, the value of these individual bunches of grapes. So that brings you, you know, if you’ve survived that kind of relationship, it’s not Mr. Senor Yago Sarah any longer.

Sarah Jane Evans 00:34:42 It’s Valenti who is the person who’s kept me alive on that slope. Definitely. And, you know, you try it. You’re visiting, trying to look terribly serious here, am I, you know, reporting on, you know, whatever it is in the wine industry and in fact, you’re scrambling. Hanging on for dear life. And so you become friends very quickly.

Natalie MacLean 00:35:01 I’ll bet I might even get into nicknames at that point. If you’re kind of going down with the avalanche together. But is there a bottle of Spanish wine that’s been most personal or most memorable to you?

Sarah Jane Evans 00:35:12 I usually try and say it’s the next one often, because that’s kind of diplomatic, because you never quite know there are people you will talk to. And I really respect them. Who can say when I was, you know, 19 or 23, I was given a bottle of Burgundy, you know, Chateau. Well, no, I don’t know what. And that said to me, wow. Wine. And I don’t think I even had a wow wine made.

Sarah Jane Evans 00:35:38 I mean, I have to confess that I grew into wine in quite cheap. You know, what you would buy as a student is they were kind of mass market wines. And there are wines that have stopped me in my tracks since. I mean, actually, I would say I might mention that I’m from a company in Australia simply because normally as a prepared wine writers, you are. What you do is you. Before you go and visit on a trip, you make sure you’ve studied all the wineries so you know when you arrive, which wine you’re going to taste and which is the good one, and who’s giving it points or what’s special about the vineyard? I hadn’t had time. I was in Western Australia and it was a Sunday afternoon, and I was being picked up by a charming man, and he just said, I just think we should taste my white wine first. How do you feel about that? And I was like, yes, of course. You know, it had been a long week and I was really I don’t mind just.

Sarah Jane Evans 00:36:36 Yes, please. So we had his shot and it was terrific. It hit me at the right moment. And it was from a company called Pyrrho, and they were pi. And it was just at that time, absolutely perfect. Now, since then there have been so many other Australian Chardonnays, but there are ones that you just remember as being special. Similarly, I think across Spain, one after another, after another, and even this one I have here, which is when this company called Paris, Malta, and it’s this orange wine. And I mean, I know I have two daughters, one of them who both passed drinking age, and one of them were cheerfully genius. And the other one would say to me, why are you drinking anything like this?

Natalie MacLean 00:37:23 Why doesn’t she like it? Is it because.

Sarah Jane Evans 00:37:26 It’s not like, let’s say, a floral, like a Sauvignon blanc? The grape varieties. Garnacha blanca, which doesn’t, doesn’t Grenache blanc, it doesn’t smell of flowers. And it has this texture as if it was a red wine, which seems quite unnatural because in.

Natalie MacLean 00:37:40 Skin aged it’s the skins have been left which they usually are not for white wines. So you’ve got that middle ground of the orange wine.

Sarah Jane Evans 00:37:46 Yes, exactly. And so she’s very unsure about it. And maybe Let’s look at the alcohol of this. This is what you see. What I like about it it’s only 12% alcohol. So that’s a most enjoyable thing. But you know, when you’re out with a group of friends, you need to choose carefully. This is something that Spain does. But Spain, you know, we all think that these wines come from Georgia or some other, but Spain also does sparkling wines, sweet wines, sherry type fortified wines, red wines and white wines. You know, I don’t need to travel if I’m in Spain.

Natalie MacLean 00:38:18 And Spain, the number one wine producer in the world.

Sarah Jane Evans 00:38:22 Well, it’s going up and down, I think, because we’ve had this vintage variation. Now with climate change, I think we maybe it might well be because what you think about is south of Madrid, south of the center of Spain, you have these mile upon mile, kilometer upon kilometer of this white grape I ran, which was really because nothing else will grow there.

Sarah Jane Evans 00:38:44 It’s in the Don Quixote country. Where the windmills.

Natalie MacLean 00:38:48 Yes. Miguel de Cervantes. Yes.

Sarah Jane Evans 00:38:51 So you have lots and lots of this white.

Natalie MacLean 00:38:54 Is it a workhorse wine kind of thing? Is that rusty? Yeah. Okay.

Sarah Jane Evans 00:38:58 And it was made. It was used a lot for distillation. So when you want to distill something to make brandy, then perfect. That’s the thing you need. But now there are beginning to be people who are making very nice, delicate wines with it. So everything is changing at the moment. So that’s why I think that country is so exciting.

Natalie MacLean 00:39:16 Yeah, Spain, we’re going to dive more into that. But just before we do, maybe just draw us a quick mental map of where Spain is in Europe. For those who are over here in North America and just going, okay, where was that?

Sarah Jane Evans 00:39:27 So it’s only the most westerly part. And even I had to think between East and West. I’m gesturing, you know, which way is is the most westerly part of Europe pointing towards the Atlantic.

Sarah Jane Evans 00:39:39 It’s kind of square shaped. Below Spain is North Africa. So that’s where you are. And then a little bit, I say it’s a little bit, maybe it’s large and a little bit on the left hand side. The west side of Spain is actually Portugal. In the very, very early times it was the Iberian Peninsula. So it was that squarish lump which sticks off the end of Europe. It lies below France. And on the other side, I guess you’d say on the east side you would find if you sailed Italy. And what’s interesting, too, about Spain is it has various other territories, so it has the Balearic Islands. We’ve got party islands, Ibiza, you know, you name Majorca. And then right down almost by Africa, really a long way down. You have the Canary Islands, which are very important for tourism holidays, but they’re also part of Spain.

Natalie MacLean 00:40:33 Yes. And we’re going to get into those as well. What do you think are the biggest misconception is about Spanish wine?

Sarah Jane Evans 00:40:39 Well, very unfortunately I think people think it’s cheap and cheerful.

Sarah Jane Evans 00:40:43 So that’s great. So that we’re coming. We’re at this time of the year, the beginning of the fall, autumn season. We’re beginning to think about catering for parties in the winter. And what will you do? You will get. Well, I used to work for BBC Good Food magazine, and every year they had features on how to make a sort of punch or cup that you would have. And the base was always Garnacha, a cheap red Spanish wine to which you could add spices and oranges because frankly, you know, nobody cared what the wine was like, but it was cheap. That image is very hard to get rid of. So when you look at a fine wine list, if you’re in a michelin starred restaurant somewhere out there, you will start off with maybe champagne, and then you’ll have France, and then you’ll go into Italy. And then if you’re lucky, Spain will come next. But you might well find that Germany comes after it in the same way. The good thing about that is, though, and I think there is a good thing about that, is that it makes very top wine in Spain Still very good values.

Sarah Jane Evans 00:41:45 So. So it shouldn’t be the case. I was with a producer in Rijeka yesterday who produces some very fine red wine, really lovely Gran Reserva, and he was selling his bottle for something like €60. I don’t know what the exchange is, but then it went up to about €80 and then he’s pushed it up to a 110 and frankly he should be selling it nearer 200. But it’s just that the market won’t quite bear that. So that if you look at auctions, which is what the other end of the market, you’re definitely fine. France and Italy and California there. But will you find Spain hardly at all, as Vegas is here in a couple of others, right?

Natalie MacLean 00:42:29 And yet Spanish wines do age well, like the top ones.

Sarah Jane Evans 00:42:32 Yes, absolutely. There’s absolutely no doubt about that at all. I suppose there’s one thing we should say that since Spain had famously had a civil war just before the Second World War. And after that, they had a fascist dictatorship that went on till late 1970s.

Sarah Jane Evans 00:42:50 So they didn’t join Europe until 1980s. So during that time of the dictatorship, they were told what to farm, where to farm, how to farm it. So there was no sort of priority about fostering a wonderful wine culture. So that’s only really coming in the last 40 years, and that’s what’s made the difference. Spain is just being a little bit behind, but it has to escape because, you know, you can’t survive on paying growers next to nothing and making very cheap wines.

Natalie MacLean 00:43:19 And that fascist regime, is that why there are so many cooperatives in the country?

Sarah Jane Evans 00:43:25 Well, yes, that’s certainly part of it. Because for us in the UK, we’re we’re I think as people we’re not good at cooperating. But we, we do have one big farm and retail cooperative, but generally it’s not a thing. Whereas yes, a number of cooperatives were set up and also before Franco’s time as well. And they were very important to making sure that communities were fed and that everybody could provide their grapes or whatever they were to be made collectively.

Sarah Jane Evans 00:43:56 And often you go to cooperatives and they will have petrol stations and shops of different kinds, and they may also process different fruits. And there are some lovely fruits you will buy, which you will see will have come from a cooperative. But it’s taken time so that you know, we’re at once upon a time they would simply take all the grapes and stick them in a tank and ferment them. Now people, like masses of wine are coming as consultants and helping them select the best. And so there are some really, really excellent cooperatives who are able to produce cheap wine, but also fine wine, right?

Natalie MacLean 00:44:31 Because cooperatives notoriously have a reputation, regardless of country, of being cheap, cheap and cheerful again. So double strike there. okay. So it’s good news that some of these cooperatives are coming up in the world and younger generations and consulting winemakers, all improving the quality. You write that Spain is the most exciting country in Europe for wine. Can you give us a specific example that illustrates that?

Sarah Jane Evans 00:44:54 Yes.

Sarah Jane Evans 00:44:54 Well, I think you’ve mentioned it partly, which is a younger generation. So it doesn’t mean that I’m negating all that went before. But what happened is finally, after the end of the dictatorship and the arrival in Europe, winemakers could freely go and travel the world. So if you go and talk to my car, talking to a viticulture or winemaker now, they’ll say, oh, I was in Chile and then I worked in Australia or Argentina, then I worked in Italy, and there’s a huge amount of interchange. So what they’ve done is they’ve learnt about all sorts of things they could do, and then they’ve come back to apply it to their own patch of dirt. But there’s two bits that attaches to that. One is the interchange between generations. And I’m fascinated to meet families. There’s a family in Umea. Camilla. There’s a family in Haumea who have become an exceptionally well known in a place that’s not. It’s not necessarily a name to sing with. It doesn’t necessarily have the highest prices, but they grow their grapes dynamically.

Sarah Jane Evans 00:45:51 And I have a picture in my book of the father, who very cheerfully is with his sons and sons, have introduced a whole new range and style of wine, which is very different from what the father made, and they’re getting on very well about it. But what impresses me. I mean, there are a number of really impressive families.

Natalie MacLean 00:46:10 And what’s the name of that winery you were just referring to?

Sarah Jane Evans 00:46:13 Well, I would call it saron, so it’s c e r o n saron. They have a lovely, lovely expression of wines with. One thing I would say is what is there a cliched image of Spain. It’s it’s hefty reds, you know, alcohol, hefty. It’s a bit rustic, maybe overcooked. So what they have and I particularly like is they’ve learned how to tame the monastery, because that’s the red grape variety they have there, the monastery grape varieties. So it becomes so much more elegant. And they also have and well, we mentioned it earlier, a white grape variety called iron, which was used for by so many for distilling into, well, a base for brandy.

Sarah Jane Evans 00:46:56 And they’re making a lovely white wine out of it. There are people popping up all hope there’s new generations. The other thing is some people are finding or reviving old vineyards. There’s a lot of abandoned vineyards and they’re reviving those. And that, again, old vines is a big story.

Natalie MacLean 00:47:13 And how are they reviving them?

Sarah Jane Evans 00:47:16 If you go and visit somebody with an old vineyard, that’s a very good question. It’s a long, bumpy journey into in a rose. And then what you’re going to find is nothing on trend on wires. It’s all going to be these little bush vines, and they will have been abandoned. And so they’ll have been growing all over the place. So gradually they’re pruning them down, getting them back into shape. They’re also finding that there are some older varieties there that nobody realized. You’re finding interplay between the maybe the variety like Tempranillo, which we all know is the red grape variety of Spain. They’re finding all sorts of other grape varieties as well, maybe in small quantities.

Sarah Jane Evans 00:47:56 And so now the work is being done to see if any of those are worth building on. And I guess one of the people who’s been doing it the most among were the most well-known company who’s been doing a lot of work for years as company. Torres who are outside but large company.

Natalie MacLean 00:48:13 Yes.

Sarah Jane Evans 00:48:14 Yeah. And what’s interesting is that they’re a big name. Very big name. But at the same time, Miguel Torres senior has been investing. I don’t know, it must be 30 or 40 years now in getting people to bring him unknown varieties and he puts them in his test vineyard. I would say at that point I’ve just called him Miguel Torres, but every single person in my book has is called by their first name, except one. And that’s a mr. Torres, because in the business he is Mr. Torres, I see.

Natalie MacLean 00:48:45 Is he formal?

Sarah Jane Evans 00:48:46 No, he’s not formal at all. But I think it’s respect for his age now. He may be retired, but he will never retire. He’s a most vigorous and dynamic person.

Sarah Jane Evans 00:48:55 Like those old vines cross? Yes, absolutely.

Natalie MacLean 00:48:58 Shrubby vine. You mentioned Monastero. Is that the same grape as Mourvedre? Mataro. And it’s named different things in different countries. And does it have similar styles as those other grapes like smooth and I guess full bodied?

Sarah Jane Evans 00:49:13 Yes. So Monastero, the Spaniards will definitely bang the table and say, I won’t. I’ll try not to bang the table here. My nostril is theirs and it went from there to. It’s basically a mediterranean grape varieties from the east coast, the Mediterranean coast, then went north into France and then subsequently the Australians, who make so much of it as matter. Oh well, I mean, obviously the Australians came later, didn’t they? So no, they had Spanish. So undoubtedly there are monasteries in Spain which are hefty, burly, full of alcohol, bold. And then there are people who are also making wines still with they are full bodied but much more elegant and I think probably the most famous one. And the one worth seeking out is a winery which has had 100 points for its wine, which is something called Casa Castelo.

Sarah Jane Evans 00:50:07 So Casa Castelo, so it’s basically a house with a castle, as it were. The building was made by French prisoners of war in the 19th century. And what’s very interesting about it is, unlike many businesses which buy in grapes from all over the place, they have their own vineyard. And within that vineyard, which is much of it. Monastero. They have an area which is where the grapes are planted on their own. I’m doing this kind of gesture now, planted on their own rootstocks, because they never had the louse. Phylloxera, which eats the roots, kills the plant effectively. That’s because it’s so dry up there, and the soil is so sandy that the phylloxera Alaska never survived. So can we taste the difference? They are very good wines. But is it possible to say that a vine that grows on its own rootstocks with feel, it must be better? But can I taste the difference blind? I’m not sure, but it’s. You’ll find them there at Casa Cascio.

Natalie MacLean 00:51:08 That’s fascinating.

Natalie MacLean 00:51:15 Well, there you have it. I hope you enjoyed our chat with Sarah Jane. Here are my takeaways. Number one, how does the biggest misconception about Spanish wine make it? A hidden gem for wine lovers? So, as Sarah Jane explains in the past and to some extent today, unfortunately, people still think of Spanish wine as cheap and cheerful. She used to work for the BBC’s Good Food magazine. Very beautiful magazine, by the way, and every year they had features on how to make some sort of punch, and the base was usually Garnacha or some cheap Spanish wine, and you could add spices and oranges and all kinds of other things, because, frankly, she says, no one cared what the wine was because it was cheap. And that image is hard to get rid of. So now when you look at a fine wine list, she says, and you’re in a michelin starred restaurant, you’ll start with champagne, then maybe France, then maybe you get to Italy, and if you’re lucky, Spain will come next.

Natalie MacLean 00:52:07 But you might well find that Germany follows that. The good thing about all of this is that it makes top wines and all wines in Spain amazing values. And I have to say, I agree 100% wholeheartedly. Number two, how did Spain’s civil war and period of dictatorship delay the growth of its wine culture? Sarah Jane says that since Spain had a civil war just before the Second World War, and then after that they had a fascist dictatorship that went on until the late 1970s. They didn’t join Europe until the 1980s. So during the time of the dictatorship, they were told what to farm, where to farm and how to farm it. There was no priority about fostering wine, culture quality wines. That’s only really coming about in the last 40 years. So Spain has been a little bit behind, she says. But it had to escape from those constraints because you can’t survive on paying growers next to nothing and making very cheap wines. So we’re all glad about that change. And number three, what makes the vineyards of challenging to walk but unforgettable to visit? Sarah Jane says Prat is famous for slate soils, but it’s very crumbly and the vines grow as bush vines on extremely steep slopes called coasters.

Natalie MacLean 00:53:27 It’s probably because people are coasting and sliding their way down. She was able to get up on the steep slopes, but the problem is coming down with the soil as it’s crumbling. And she says your desire is to hang on to the bushes, but, you know, you uproot one of these, you’re uprooting 100 years of history and the value of all these grapes. So if you’ve survived that kind of relationship and struggling and staggering down a steep slope, as she says, it’s no longer a senior. La Costa, it’s Valenti. Catch me when you’re hanging on for dear life. You become very good friends very quickly. In the show notes, you’ll find the full transcript of my conversation with Sarah Jane Evans, links to her website and books. The video versions of these conversations on Facebook and YouTube live, and where you can order my book online now, no matter where you live. If you missed episode 146, go back and take a listen. I talk about penalties, Spain, Croatia and Kosher wines with Kate Dingwall, and I’ll share a short clip with you now to whet your appetite.

Kate Dingwall 00:54:32 The wines of Georgia are so incredibly fascinating. Just the processes, they’re so historic, like the amphora.

Natalie MacLean 00:54:39 The clay vessels.

Kate Dingwall 00:54:40 And clay vessels buried underground. And it was just such a fascinating experience for me to be like, wow, I know nothing about this. How cool.

Natalie MacLean 00:54:49 Is that? Where orange wines originate?

Kate Dingwall 00:54:51 It is. They call them amber wines. But yeah, the extended skin contact of the white wines. It dates back thousands of years in the country.

Natalie MacLean 00:55:00 Wow. Wow.

Natalie MacLean 00:55:02 Did you discover any unique food and wine pairings with Georgian wines?

Kate Dingwall 00:55:06 Yes, they have some really beautiful dishes that I had also never experienced. Like beautiful, like cheesy egg breads that just pair. So interestingly, lots of eggplant, lots of walnut sauces. Just really, really beautiful kind of veggie for dishes that pair beautifully with these amber wines.

Natalie MacLean 00:55:27 You won’t want to miss next week when we continue our chat with Sarah Jane. If you liked this episode or learned even one thing from it, please email or tell a friend about the podcast this week, especially someone you know who be interested in learning more about Spanish wines.

Natalie MacLean 00:55:42 It’s easy to find the Unreserved Wine Talk podcast. Just tell them to search for that title or my name Natalie MacLean Wine on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, their favorite podcast app, or they can listen to the show on my website at Natalie MacLean podcast. Email me if you have a tip, question, or if you’d like to win one of four copies of the books I have to give away. I’d also love to hear your thoughts on this episode. Email me at Natalie at Natalie MacLean. Com in the show notes, you’ll also find a link to take a free online food and wine pairing class with me called the five Wine and Food Pairing Mistakes That Can Ruin Your Dinner and How to Fix Them Forever at Natalie MacLean. And that is all in the show notes at Natalie MacLean 358. Thank you for taking the time to join me here. I hope something great is in your glass this week. Perhaps a Spanish wine from the central or southern regions of the country.

Natalie MacLean 00:56:46 You don’t want to miss one juicy episode of this podcast, especially the secret full bodied bonus episodes that I don’t announce on social media.

Natalie MacLean 00:56:55 So subscribe for free now at Natalie MacLean. Meet me here next week. Cheers!