Why do Celebrities, like Brad Pitt, John Legend, Sarah Jessica Parker, Jon Bon Jovi, Cameron Diaz and Kylie Minogue Choose Rosé for Their Brands?

Natalie MacLean
May14th

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Introduction

Why is Rosé the go-to wine for celebrity-owned brands rather than Chardonnay or Cabernet? Why are the younger generations of wine drinkers choosing Rosé over red? Is the Rosé boom just a trend, or is its popularity here to stay?

In this episode of the Unreserved Wine Talk podcast, I’m chatting with Rasmus Emborg & Jens Honoré, who co-published the Rosé Revolution.

You can find the wines we discussed here.

 

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Highlights

  • What are the main differences between wines from Domaine Tempier and Domaine Ott?
  • What makes some Rosé wines better for aging than others?
  • How did Gerard Bertrand’s background influence his winemaking style?
  • Which Provençal cuisine dishes pair best with the Rosé wines?
  • Why do so many celebrities who come to the wine world choose to make Rosé?
  • Which celebrity wines are worth buying?
  • How has social media impacted the Rosé Revolution?
  • What does the future look like for Rosé’s popularity?
  • Why have more men started drinking Rosé?
  • Which wine regions should wine lovers visit to immerse themselves in the world of Rosé?

 

Key Takeaways

  • Why is Rosé the go-to wine for celebrity-owned brands rather than Chardonnay or Cabernet?
    • As Rasmus and Jens explain, Rosé is much easier to embrace for a broad audience. Rosé has a lot of lovers, but they don’t have any enemies. So you can be a serious musician, a rocker, a pop star, and embrace Rosé. When you’re just a celebrity and not a winemaker it’s way more bankable and easier to market. We tried a lot of those wines and I’ll tell you, some of them are pretty good, big bang for the buck. Brad Pitt, John Legend, Sarah Jessica Parker, Jon Bon Jovi, Cameron Diaz and Kylie Minogue
  • Why are the younger generations of wine drinkers choosing Rosé over red?
    • Rasmus and Jens observe that young people don’t drink much red wine, but they drink a lot of white wine and Rosé because it’s kind of like a celebratory wine. It’s become a wine you kind of gather around. You don’t disagree about it. You can’t be talked down to if you don’t know the terroir, the grapes etc. If it’s endorsed by a rapper or rock music or whatever, it enhances that experience.
  • Is the Rosé boom just a trend or is its popularity here to stay?
    • Rasmus and Jens believe that Rosé has established itself as a third wine category. We’ll still see the quality improve and higher price points. In France, 3 out of 10 bottles are Rosé, globally, it’s about one out of 10. They are seeing a trend of Rosé taking market share from red wine whereas white wine is stable.

 

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Rosé has become a marker of the good life. - Rasmus Emborg Rasmus Emborg Click to tweet

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As the population ages, it gravitates towards lighter wines like Rosé. - Natalie MacLean Natalie MacLean Click to tweet

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Rosé is not just Rosé. It’s very diverse and it brings you a lot of great experiences. - Rasmus Emborg Rasmus Emborg Click to tweet

 

About Rasmus Emborg & Jens Honoré

Rasmus Emborg is a journalist who has worked in the media industry for over 25 years. He is the author of Beer Brothers (2019), about twin beer brewers Mikkel Borg-Bjergsø and Jeppe Jarnit-Bjergsø. He and his wife own a small vineyard in Provence. The grapes are mainly used for rosé wine, and the production takes place at a local cooperative.

Jens Honoré is a photographer who has worked in the advertising industry for 30 years. In 2018, he published A Place to Dream for SOS Children’s Villages, and in partnership with Jens Vilstrup, he published the book, Farewell to a Black/White World about the UN’s 2015 Sustainable Development Goals. He has also contributed to Building a Dream about LEGO owner Kjeld Kirks Kristiansen’s realization of LEGO House. In 2021, he published The Right to Food about homeless people’s relationship with food. Jens lives in New York and as a wine enthusiast, has followed the trend of increasing enthusiasm for rosé wine with great interest.

 

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Transcript

Natalie MacLean 00:00:00 Why is Rosé the go to wine for celebrity owned brands rather than, say, Chardonnay or Cabernet? Why are younger generations of wine drinkers choosing Rosé over red? And is the Rosé boom just a trend, or is its popularity here to stay? In today’s episode, you’ll hear the stories and tips that answer those questions in Part Two of our chat with Jens Honoré and Rasmus Emborg, who co-published The Rosé Revolution. You don’t need to have listened to Part One from last week first, but if you missed it, go back and have a listen after you finish this one. By the end of our conversation, you’ll also discover the main differences between the wines of two of the most famous French Rosés from Domaine Tempier and Domaine Ott. What makes some Rosés better for aging than others. How Gérard Bertrand’s background influenced his winemaking style. Provencal cuisine dishes that pair best with Rosé. Which celebrity Rosés are worth buying? How social media has impacted the rosé revolution. Why more men have started drinking Rosé. Real men do drink pink. Which wine regions wine lovers should visit to immerse themselves in the world of Rosé. And what the future looks like for Rosé wine?

Natalie MacLean 00:01:27 Do you have a thirst to learn about wine? Do you love stories about wonderfully obsessive people, hauntingly beautiful places, and amusingly awkward social situations? Well, that’s the blend here on the Unreserved Wine Talk podcast. I’m your host, Natalie MacLean, and each week I share with you unfiltered conversations with celebrities in the wine world, as well as confessions from my own tipsy journey as I write my third book on this subject. I’m so glad you’re here. Now pass me that bottle, please, and let’s get started.

Natalie MacLean 00:02:09 Welcome to episode 337. Okay, speaking of Rosé, it is not too late to buy mom or another important woman in your life agreat bottle of wine. On City TV’s breakfast television this week, we matched wines to their personalities. Now, picking the right wine for your mom is like finding the perfect Mother’s Day card. It should be personal, heartfelt, but not homemade, at least when it comes to the wine.  If you truly love your mother, please don’t do that. And please don’t email me if you make wine at home and now hate me. So how do we match wine to mom’s personality? A universal question. I’m about to answer it. All right, so I selected five wines, each representing a different type of mom, and we played a little game with the hosts, Tim and Dina. I described the wine and then they guess which personality it matches. You can play along. Of course, whether your mom is a foodie, adventurous, social, crafty or sporty, it’s like the grown up version of the Spice Girls without scary mom.

Natalie MacLean 00:03:14 So what are we tasting first? Well, we have the La Vielle Ferme Reserve Brut Sparkling from southern France. This crisp, charming French bubbly punches well above its price point at only $14.50. It’s made from Chardonnay primarily, and it has mouthwatering aromas of white peach, green apple and a whisper of brioche. It’s lively with bubbles that tickle your nose. The palate is refreshing, offering notes of lemon zest and pear all wrapped in fine, persistent bubbles. There’s a subtle minerality that comes from the limestone soils that adds depth and elegance. I’d pair this wine with golden-crusted fried chicken with a satisfying crunch. The coating gives way to juicy, tender meat within, creating a delightful contrast with the wine’s effervescence. Or perhaps we could try it with a creamy wild mushroom risotto, slowly stirred to silky perfection, with the earthy fungi releasing their woodsy aromas to complement the subtle brioche notes of the wine.

Natalie MacLean 00:04:11 So, Tim. Dana. You listening? Based on my description, do you think this bubbly would be best for the mom who is a foodie, adventurous, social, crafty or sporty? And the hosts answered, you’re absolutely right. This sparkling wine would be perfect for the savvy social mom. She’s the one who knows everyone in the neighbourhood and throws the best parties and like this bubbly she’s effervescent and brings joy to every gathering and remembers everyone’s birthday. So did you know, though, that women were pivotal in Champagne’s development? The famous widow, Veuve Clicquot, revolutionized Champagne production in the early 1800s by inventing the riddling process that we still use today.And there’s more on an episode dedicated to those champagne widows. If you look at the back catalogue.

Natalie MacLean 00:05:10 All right, let’s move on to our second wine. What’s in our glasses next? Feel free to smell or taste the Casillero Del Diablo Belight Sauvignon Blanc from Chile. This zesty featherlight wine bursts open with notes of ripe peach and juicy pear. It’s dry, light bodied and refreshingly crisp, with a modest 8.5% alcohol as compared to, you know, average wines these days, clocking in at about 13%. The grapes are harvested early to naturally limit the amount of alcohol. I’d pair this with lemon-kissed grilled sea bass. The delicate flesh flaking apart at the touch of your fork, while the citrus notes amplify the wine’s bright character. I seem to be thinking about flesh a lot here. But anyway, back to our food porn. Or perhaps a summer herb salad tossed with a tangy goat cheese in crumbles, toasted pine nuts, and a light vinaigrette that dances across your palate just like the wine. This wine is brand new to the LCBO and available in many other liquor stores.

Natalie MacLean 00:06:22 All of the wines that I am mentioning today are available in the LCBO.. The La Veille Ferme is also new. All right, so based on my description, do you think this wine would be best for the mom who is a foodie, adventurous, social, crafty or sporty? Well, says the host, I’m thinking this is lighter and refreshing. It would be perfect for maybe the health conscious mom who’s always counting steps. Exactly right. This indeed is sporty mom’s wine. She’s fit and fabulous up at 5 a.m. for a spin class, which makes me tired thinking about it. Tracks her macros and gets a little competitive on family game night that I can identify with. This lower alcohol Sauvignon Blanc perfectly fits her active lifestyle and at 8.5% alcohol rather than the usual 13. She can enjoy glass without derailing her morning run. So annoying. Anyway, here’s something fascinating. Lower alcohol wines are actually one of the fastest growing categories in the wine industry, with sales increasing by over 30% in the last three years as more consumers seek balance in their drinking habits.

Natalie MacLean 00:07:36 Low and no. Those are the categories. Low and no alcohol. Well, I need to tell my running buddy about that one. What’s our third wine? So feel free to taste the Trapiche Reserve Pinot Grigio from Argentina. This Pinot Grigio is zesty and refreshing because the grapes are grown in the high-altitude mountainous region of Mendoza, Argentina, which gives the wine exceptional brightness and energy. I’d pair this with butter-poached lobster tail, the sweet, tender flesh—back to flesh again—bathed in a gentle herb butter that brings out the wine’s subtle fruit notes. Or perhaps a handmade spring vegetable tempura, where the paper-thin slices of zucchini, carrot and sweet onion are dipped in an airy batter, then flash-fried to ethereal crispness that complements the wine’s clean finish. So, based on my description, do you think this wine is best for the mom who’s a foodie, adventurous, social, crafty or sporty? I’m guessing this might be for the mom who likes planning trips. You’re getting so good at this. This Pinot Grigio represents adventure, mom.

Natalie MacLean 00:08:48 Can you see the cape flapping in the wind? She has had the kids hiking since they were three. Has camping gear permanently packed in the car, and believes that off the beaten path is the only way to travel. This Pinot Grigio, with its vivid, assertive character, captures her spirit perfectly. Now, did you know that Mendoza’s vineyards are some of the highest in the world? Many sit at over 3000 feet above sea level, where intense sunlight develops flavour while cool mountain nights preserve their acidity. Well, I’m sure you have or know an adventure mom.

Natalie MacLean 00:09:20 What’s the fourth wine? So taste the Villa Maria Cellar Selection Sauvignon Blanc from New Zealand. This Sauvignon blanc is produced from sustainably grown grapes in the Marlborough region. It’s incredibly versatile, colourful and intensely perfumed with passion fruit, mango, lemon, lime zest and herbal notes that are mouthwateringly long on the palate. This wine is drinking beautifully now, but will continue to develop for another few years. I’d pair this with a citrus-cured salmon gravlax, thinly sliced and arranged like rose petals on the plate. The delicate, you know it’s coming, flesh infused with bright lemon and dill that mirror the wine’s flavour profile. Or perhaps a coconut lemongrass steamed bowl of mussels where the plump shellfish open to release their sweet juices into a fragrant broth that harmonizes beautifully with the wine’s tropical notes. Are we still talking about mussels here? Anyway, based on my description, do you think this wine would be best for the mom who is a foodie? Adventurous, social, crafty or sporty?

Natalie MacLean 00:10:36 Intense flavours, vibrant character. I’m thinking this might be for an artsy-fartsy mom. Perfect match. Yes. This wine represents crafty mom. She can transform a Pinterest post into a masterpiece. Macramé her way out of a corner and this queen of homemade gifts that people actually want to keep. This wine, like her projects, is detailed, beautifully balanced, and shows elegant restraint. Fun fact about New Zealand wine: before the 1970s, barely any Sauvignon blanc was planted in New Zealand. Now it represents over 70% of the country’s wine production, and it has single-handedly changed how the world thinks about this grape variety. Much like how Crafty Mom has redefined scrapbooking.

Natalie MacLean 00:11:17 And last but not least, wine number five. What’s the final mom matchup? So feel free to taste some of Seven Estate Winery’s The Pursuit Chardonnay from Niagara. This elegant white wine offers hedonistic aromas of golden apple, toasty vanilla and a hint of freshly baked bread. The palate is rich yet balanced with a creamy texture and vibrant acidity. I’d pair this with a caramelized onion and aged cheddar tart with a flaky, buttery pastry that melts on your tongue, while the sweet onions and sharp cheese dance across your palate. Or perhaps a butter-basted roast chicken with tarragon and lemon. The skin crisped to golden perfection, while the meat remains succulent and tender, complementing the wine’s rich but balanced character. So which mom is this – foodie, adventurous, social, crafty or sporty? Well, I mean, we’re down to one, isn’t it? It’s absolutely delicious. Over the top. For foodie mom. You got it. This Canadian Chardonnay perfectly represents the gourmet goddess.

Natalie MacLean 00:12:33 Like this beautifully balanced wine, she creates sumptuous meals and is always experimenting with new flavours in pursuit of the perfect dish. Many people don’t realize that Canada produces world class, cool climate wines, with Niagara being approximately on the same latitude as Burgundy, France, the spiritual home of Chardonnay. Like a nurturing mom, Canadian wines often fly under the radar while quietly excelling. Well, Natalie, these suggestions are fantastic. Any final words of wisdom for our viewers? Yes. Of course. Here’s to our moms who fill our glasses and our hearts. May we celebrate their unique personality every day, not just on Mother’s Day. Hint, hint to those who live with me. All right. And where can we find you and these wines online? On Instagram, I’m at Natalie MacLean Wine and online my website is nataliemaclean.com.

Natalie MacLean 00:13:31 Before we move on to today’s interview, I’m happy to announce that Chris Suggseth of Newberg, Oregon, has won a copy of Sally Evan’s inspiring, witty new memoir, Make the Midlife Move: A practical guide to flourishing after 50. I still have three copies of the award winning book Vines in a Cold Climate by Henry Jeffreys. If you’d like to win a copy, please email me and let me know you’d like to win. It doesn’t matter where you live. I’ll choose three winners randomly from those who contact me at [email protected]. In other bookish news, if you’re reading the paperback book or listening to the audiobook of my memoir Wine Witch on Fire: Rising from the Ashes of Divorce, Defamation and Drinking Too Much, a national bestseller in one of Amazon’s best books of the year, I’d love to hear from you at [email protected]. I would be happy to send you gorgeous, personally signed book plates for the copies you buy or give us gifts. I’ll put a link in the show notes to all retailers worldwide at nataliemaclean.com/337. The paperback usually arrives within a day or two of ordering. E-book and audiobook are instantly available. Okay, on with the show. So let’s talk about domain, Tempe and band.

Natalie MacLean 00:14:48 So let’s talk about Domaine Tempier in Bandol because it didn’t come from such a strong marketing push. I do remember reading Kermit Lynch, the importer from California, his famous book Adventures Along the Wine Route – marvellous – and his discovery of Domaine Tempier in Bandol. How would you differentiate Domaine Tempier from Domaine Ott? Give us a picture of Domain Tempier.

Rasmus Emborg & Jens Honore 00:15:12 First of all, it’s a much smaller business. Originally, Domain Tempier was a wedding gift to Lulu and Lucien Pierrot, and they were not very much into winemaking. And we’re back in the 30s here. And the phylloxera had been ruining  a lot of vineyards around Europe. But Lucien Pierrot, he tasted a wine made of Mourvèdre, the grape that is the main grade of Bandol where Domaine Tempier is located. Bandol is the kind of the western part of Provence, and he kind of wanted to explore this more with the grape that is very different from, for instance, the Grenache grape. It’s a more thicker skin, it’s much more complicated. It needs a whole lot of sun to mature and so on. But if you hit it right, you really get some interesting wine. So the big difference is the use of Mourvèdre. And this gives a bit more powerful a wine, a wine that can age, which we experienced during some of our visits.

Natalie MacLean 00:16:21 How long can it age>

Rasmus Emborg & Jens Honore 00:16:23 For a long time. And actually, Daniel Ravier, who is the winemaker down there now, during one of our visits, we had a tasting. We tasted the recent years and we tasted one from that was from the 90s. And then he just said, well wait a minute I’ll be back. And then he came back with a bottle. It looked old. He didn’t want to show us the vintage, but he served it for us. I mean, this is one of the most incredible wine experiences of the whole trip, of our whole research for this book. I will say wine still with the beautiful color, a bit more amber and the taste of course had lost some freshness, but it had developed some complexity. Some fig, some dry apricot. It was mind blowing. And then he he showed us the bottle. And it was from 1979.

Natalie MacLean 00:17:11 Wow.

Rasmus Emborg & Jens Honore 00:17:11 And this was a kind of a proof that if the wine is good, you can often age a Rosé wine and the flavour develops. And Mourvèdre especially is really good for aging wines.

Natalie MacLean 00:17:23 Is Mourvèdre better for aging wines because of the tannins or the colour pigmentation? Does it make it hold together longer than, say, Grenache?

Rasmus Emborg & Jens Honore 00:17:31 Depending on what wine you’re making. But it was a profound experience because when you talk about the different grape varieties, it’s like. Actually talking about Grenache, the main grape in Chateauneuf de Pape, which is like really big red wines, is also really good at aging because it’s all depending on the producers. I mean, just to emphasize the story, what Rasmus told it was a profound experience for us to sit and try that. I mean, I drank a lot of wine in my life. And also, he’s humble guy. He’s a hardworking guy. It’s quite different from some of the other kind of high end winemakers. They’re very super high end. And also, we found it interesting that a guy from Berkeley called Kermit Lynch back in the 70s when he was a kind of a hippie guy riding around his motorbike in the south of France, stumbling upon these guys and just saying, this is fantastic and kind of start taking that kind of wine into the United States. I mean, that’s one thing we’re going to talk about a little later, but to have a heritage that is really worth putting in the book because it’s a totally different approach. It’s not outgoing, it’s not loud, it’s not based on any kind of marketing tricks, but it’s like when you get into it and understand what they’re doing there and been doing for such a long time. It’s a profound wine, and it’s really, really high end wine. And it’s actually also that specific wine we have here in the book is always sold out. Once you come to the different markets where it’s sold, it’s gone like that because people who are into Rosé wine.

Rasmus Emborg & Jens Honore 00:19:00 And the funny thing is, this is actually a wine that’s been around even before we talked about any Rosé revolution that’s important that like Domaine Tempier or Domaine Ott. They have made this Rosé wine for many years and didn’t really care about trends. Of course, now the experience that they are being sold out every year. I mean, just like Lopez de Heredia from Rioja. They’ve just been doing what they have been doing all the years. But these are exceptions. And I think talking about internationally and you say can a Grenache based Rosé wine age? And I think because Rosé has not only been taken seriously for maybe 15 or 20 years, with these exceptions that we have just described. It also means that there’s a lot of questions that are still unanswered. For instance, Gerard Bertrand from Languedoc, who today produces the most expensive Rosé wine Clos du Temple, and I think he has produced it for now about ten years or so. He makes sure that he saves some bottles every year, because he also wants to know how the wine is ten, 20, 30 years. But he still doesn’t know. He believes his wine Clos du Temple can age and develop. But we will see in the future. That counts for a lot of producers. High quality wine.

Natalie MacLean 00:20:27 And what are you showing there, Jens?

Rasmus Emborg & Jens Honore 00:20:29 That is where the top cuvée is made and this particular field where you have this wine.

Natalie MacLean 00:20:36 For Gerard Bertrand? They’re in pyramids. Why are they in pyramids?

Rasmus Emborg & Jens Honore 00:20:39 Because he’s a Rudolf Steiner kind of guy. So he believes in the biodynamic winemaking, which is the energy, you know. Rudolf Steiner was this Swiss guy who kind of came up with. It’s all named after the Greek gods. And the top level is called Demeter. D E M E T E R because he believes you have to pick the grapes at a certain time, according to the moon and all that. The funny thing is that he actually uses his own kind of personal experience as a person to kind of develop that system, because he used to be a professional rugby player. Rugby is a very big sport in France. He used to represent France on the national team. He had some liver problems because he got injured. It’s a very demanding, tough sport. And he couldn’t get well by using his normal doctor. And he kind of started using alternative doctors who believe in that alternative Rudolf Steiner methods. And once he got into winemaking and Rasmus Emborg said later why he did that, he started to take that method to kind of work on his own body, say I’ll kind of give that to my own wines as well. He was two metres and five. So he’s six five. Enormous guy, use to be a rugby player, but he’s the most gentle guy. And he believes in all that astrology and all that is fascinating. And that’s also what it makes so appealing about these high end producers. And they want to show the world that we make also really good red wine and white wine and whatever. But we also are able to make this super high end wine. And he’s a kind of a hybrid between Domaine Tempier and Sacha Le Chien because he’s both really, really good at marketing. But also it comes from a very profound place.

Natalie MacLean 00:22:10 I didn’t know that his personal background, how he recovered his own health is now how he views treating the health of his vines. That’s really interesting. And Domaine Tempier, just backtracking to them, they really kind of elevated food and wine. Alice Waters was a good friend or is a good friend of Kermit Lynch. She runs Chez Panisse in Berkeley, California. Kermit Lynch is the importer there. They often collaborated. Famous, famous restaurant. But Domaine Tempier really also elevated Provencal cuisine. What really amazing dishes go well with the Rosé that are symbolic of Provencal cuisine? Oh, you’ve got some pictures. Of course. Okay, maybe you can describe them, Jens.

Rasmus Emborg & Jens Honore 00:22:57 So the second time we came back, she said you want to stay for lunch and we are like, sure. And then she went to the market because as Rasmus told Lulu, the mother of all Provencal food, she kind of gave that heritage to her daughter, who used to run a restaurant. And she went to the market and went on shopping so we could eat that delicious food, which is basically very, very simple, local ingredients, a lot of fish. We had mussels that day and of course they produced their own olive oil. It was so simple. But it was also so, so very good. And I’ll just want to show photos here.

Natalie MacLean 00:23:30 But Oh, what a beautiful shot of mussels and the Rosé and the light coming in.

Rasmus Emborg & Jens Honore 00:23:36 Daniel, the winemaker, just came by, you know. oh are you ready for lunch? And you just let me just bring some bottles, and Rasmus was just sitting there. It was unreal. And of course, I had to take off the camera and take some photos because I was just overwhelmed. And that’s one of the things that I gave me goosebumps talking about it right now, because it was a profound experience, and it was one of those things that we couldn’t have anticipated that before, when we started doing the research for the book. That was some of those gifts we were giving by kind of returning, and they saw how serious you were and how we appreciated the wine. And then we were invited back. And I hope that you get that feeling when you’re sitting with the book. That is not only something we just did, rush through. We had a great experience. And hopefully you can feel that when you’re sitting with the book, when you’re talking about food and wine. As you also see in the book, we have different wines and you’ll find some of the wines are really, really well made food, especially the table wines we’ll talk about later with the producer. But it’s also to show that there’s actually a difference between the different Rosé wines.

Natalie MacLean 00:24:34 Now, these producers have become sort of rock stars, celebrities in their own right. But let’s talk about celebrities. It just seems like every celebrity that wants to make a wine these days to put their name on it, like a movie star wants to do Rosé. I think John Legend, LVE, and then Brad Pitt and Angelina Jolie, Miraval. Jon Bon Jovi, who collaborated actually with Gerard Bertrand and made Hampton Water. Kylie Minogue. I mean, there’s just so many. Mary J. Blige. Holy smokes. Why do you think they all want to go with Rosé?  What is it? Because it appeals to so many palates? But why not like a big bold red or a beautiful round Chardonnay? Why Rosé?

Rasmus Emborg & Jens Honore 00:25:13 Well, I think Rosé one is much easier to embrace for a broad audience. It’s harder to scare anybody off with a particular kind of wine. I worked a lot for big spirit companies over the years. We always did those campaigns. We know that if you’re marketing like cognac in the United States, you’re catering to a black audience. So there’s all these different categories where we’re saying they have a lot of lovers but I don’t have any enemies. It’s not talked down upon. So you can be like a serious musician, you can be a rocker, you can be like a pop star, whatever you are, you can always embrace Rosé wine. And it’s not a coincidence they’ve done that. Because you’ll know when you sit a restaurant, you sit with that thick book of wines you can pick from the menu, and people sitting getting sick and tired about what wine to pick, where you just sit around the table. Let’s have a glass of Rosé wine. And I think that approach, when you’re just a celebrity and not a good winemaker, it’s way more bankable and easier to market wherever you are, and especially if you are a global star. Funny enough, we tried a lot of those wines, Rasmus and I. And I’ll tell you, some of them are pretty good. Big bang for the buck.

Natalie MacLean 00:26:22 What are your favuorites?

Rasmus Emborg & Jens Honore 00:26:24 Hampton Waters is a great wine for the money. If you look at the craftsmanship that goes into make a good wine and all the heavy investment they’re made in the wines to make it the best possible wine. Actually, if you buy a Hampton Waters or you buy a Whispering Angel, you actually get a really, really high end quality wine for the money you pay for it compared to like a red wine. Miraval is a super good wine as well. I mean, it is something to do with Brad Pitt because he’s such a superstar.

Natalie MacLean 00:26:49 But their name isn’t even on the label.

Rasmus Emborg & Jens Honore 00:26:52 No, and I think that’s deliberately because first of all, they had a kind of very hard breakup, as you know. And also, I think that they bought the place because they spent a lot of time in France. For instance, the Hampton Waters, it is very deliberate that they picked the grapes from Gerard Bertrand, even though it’s got an American name and it’s got a very American, pop star, rocker. Actually, I stayed in the same room as the sun and Bon Jovi does when they’re down picking grapes. So that is real and they’ve really been involved in it. And also because Bon Jovi, he lives out in the Hamptons in the summer, where it’s named after.

Natalie MacLean 00:27:27 Absolutely. And even with Miraval, it’s made by the Perrin family, who make Chateau Beaucastel. I mean, that’s really high pedigree winemaking.

Rasmus Emborg & Jens Honore 00:27:36 Absolutely. This is, I think, something that you cannot emphasize enough because this celebrity thing has not been very helpful when it comes to having the wine establishments recognition of Rosé wine. It gives the establishment another reason to say, oh, it’s only Kylie Minogue and Jon Bon Jovi.  It’s not a real wine. I mean, you can think wine is good or bad, but there’s a lot of good wine out there. Probably not the celebrities making the wine themselves. And as he says, is that Perrin family is involved in the Miraval. But again, it’s popularity on the foundation of quality. And also talking about the celebrity. Why is it attractive for them to use Rosé wine? And again, I think this is also about marketing themselves, because Rosé wine has become a marker of the good life, that we should all strive for joy.

Natalie MacLean 00:28:27 Mediterranean lifestyle.

Rasmus Emborg & Jens Honore 00:28:29 Joy and pleasure. You know, in a busy world.

Natalie MacLean 00:28:32 Whether it’s the Hamptons or Saint Tropez.

Rasmus Emborg & Jens Honore 00:28:34  Exactly. Well, you put on your straw hat and your linen shirt, and maybe you spit out some olive pits, and you drink a glass of Rosé, and it is kind of the good life. And I think this is something that a lot of the celebrities will also like to be identified with.

Natalie MacLean 00:28:53 Absolutely. Celebrity names just keep coming to mind. Sarah Jessica Parker with the New Zealand Rosé.

Rasmus Emborg & Jens Honore 00:28:59 One thing that’s very important is he was not part of the book, but we looked a lot into Post Malone because he makes a wine called 15, and it’s actually a really, really good wine. He’s like whoever he is and his two favourite beverages are Bud Light and Rosé wine. That pisses off the establishment so much. But nevertheless, he makes a really, really good wine.

Natalie MacLean 00:29:19 Who makes it? Who makes his Rosé. Do you know the producer?

Rasmus Emborg & Jens Honore 00:29:25 No, I don’t know. It’s made somewhere in Provence, but it’s a type of in existing. So they buy the grape from a big producer, but they have a control of the production, and they produce a lot of wine because it’s available all over the States.

Natalie MacLean 00:29:37 Yeah. It’s popular. And your book notes the significance as well, not just of celebrities, but of social media popularizing Rosé. Of course, we’ve got rosé all day and yes way Rosé. And how significant do you think social media has been? And I guess that’s yet another reason why experts or the establishment don’t think it’s a serious wine. But what are some examples of the impact social media has made?

Rasmus Emborg & Jens Honore 00:30:02 Even though I’m a wine lover, first of all, then a photographer. In this case, I could use my photographic background to kind of emphasize something that is super photogenic. It is easier to make a good book about our Instagram account or whatever about Rosé wine. However, there’s also a big trap here. Just because it’s easy doesn’t make it consistent. It’s interesting here also to gain interest among young people who don’t drink that much wine, especially not red wine. And that’s why red wine kind of part of the wine business, suffering so much. It’s like if you look to our kids, Rasmus. Our kids are kind of the same age. If they drink wine, they drink a lot of white wine or Rosé wine because it’s kind of like a suppertorian wine. It’s become a wine you kind of get around, you can get around it. You don’t disagree about it. You don’t sit there and being talked down upon. If you don’t know the terroir, the grapes or whatever, you just think it’s great, it’s tasteful and it’s a happy wine. That whole thing about the celebrity thing, even though among the establishment, as was mentioned, could hurt the wine, that has the opposite effect among all the consumers. Because my daughter, who lives in London, she doesn’t care about a wine writer, Robert Parker, who’s been very important for the wine business. She does not talk about wine that much. My daughter doesn’t know who he is and she doesn’t care. What she cares about is that she’s going to meet up at university on a Friday with a bunch of friends that don’t drink a bottle of red wine. They drink a bottle of Rosé wine, and if it’s endorsed by a rapper or a rock music, whatever it is, it’s only enhancing that experience.

Natalie MacLean 00:31:35 It’s true. It’s true. And yet, Jean-François Ott warns of rosé fatigue. Do you think this trend, if it’s a trend, of Rosé, there’s a risk of too much Rosé or that people will swing back to something else?

Rasmus Emborg & Jens Honore 00:31:53 No. I think maybe it can’t be over the top for a period of time, but I think it has a certain level and it maybe it will fluctuate a little bit, of course. But I think that because the quality, as you also see in our book, we go into great details describing is that the quality of the wine is kind of the backbone of why this revolution has kind of last for more than just two seasons. That’s my personal opinion. That if you stick to your guns and believe in your product, you will succeed. Of course, there’s a lot of bad, boring Rosé being made out there. I understand when Jean-François says that we have to be aware that it doesn’t take over the category, because I think a lot of people will be tempted to dig into this phenomenon and try to produce some Rosé wine that they can turn into a big business.

Rasmus Emborg & Jens Honore 00:32:46 One of the challenges is that we talked about the beauty of Rosé wine, and a lot of people like to have this pale wine. Some producers may put too much priority into hitting this pale colour that it harms the taste. So actually, it’s a pale, boring Rosé wine, but it looks good. That is definitely something to look into. At the same time, I think Rosé wine is establishing itself as the third wine category. And of course, there’s a lot of good wine. And of course, there’s a lot of bad wine. But this is the same thing. When you look into the red wine category or the white wine category, I think what we will see in the future will pretty much be the same as you have seen in the red and the white category. Still, we still will see the quality develop when it comes to also the higher price points. That will be definitely a demand for it. Just to look at the figures for the homeland of wine, France, I think today it’s three out of ten bottles that is Rosé wine. The global consumption of wine, it’s about one out of ten bottles. Maybe the growth will not be as significant as it has been in the past 15, 20 years. But I think we are seeing a trend where red wine is giving away market shares to the Rosé wine. Whereas a white wine kind of has a more stable position.

Natalie MacLean 00:34:15 Yeah, I would agree because the red wine, of course it tends to go with heavier foods – I’m generalizing –  and we’re turning now to lighter foods. People want lower alcohol wines. All of this. So tastes are changing health concerns and all the rest of it. One of the big changes though too, and you two are case in point, is that more and more men are drinking Rosé. How did that happen? Was there particular marketing or just Rosé was stereotypically the drink of women along with Pinot Grigio, Prosecco and Chardonnay. What’s going on with Rosé and men?

Rasmus Emborg & Jens Honore 00:34:49 A lot of my guys, they subscribe to Wall Street Journal Wine Club, which is a fantastic wine club, but it’s all over the top, big bold, Napa Valley. And I used to be a big fan of Barolo as well and Chateauneuf de Pape wine. But it just like I’m also getting older and sitting drinking 16, 17% wine. Also the white wine that barrel, popcorn, Chardonnay. I just I don’t know. One day I was like I just had enough. And then by revisiting some of those wine I used to drink, I kind of came back to Tavel, which is also one of the producers in the book. And just like, where have you been all my life? And I just fell for it right away and then, without knowing the rest exactly at that time I had bought a vineyard. I started exploring as well and found a lot of ome of the old brands I used to go to were still bad. Mateo’s excuse, Mateo is very important, iconic photo of Jimi Hendrix and him in the bottle. But that was still bad. But I found so many new kind of producers I never heard about before. And it was kind of revelation. And it kind of brought me back to wine because I was just like when I went down to my wine cellar, looked at the same stuff, just like I was not passionate about it anymore. And wine and passion to me is to kind of equal things.

Natalie MacLean 00:35:59 Absolutely. And you make a great point. As the population ages, I think it gravitates towards lighter wines, not just overall health concerns, but as we age, we want to moderate consumption. So that would make complete sense in terms of why people would be going toward Rosé. So if people wanted to immerse themselves in the world of Rosé, where would you tell them to travel? Would you suggest Provence or where should they go to? Well, we haven’t had a chance to explore, to validate. I should mention so that people have a grounding, but it’s a region in the Rhone valley of France that makes only Rosé and makes pretty full bodied, very flavourful rosé. And I think it was the king was passing by there and said it had a duty to make Rosé. It was the best wine in the world or whatever. But where would you advise people to visit Tavel, Provence? Or would you tell them to take a road trip around some different regions?

Rasmus Emborg & Jens Honore 00:36:55 Well, I might be biased here, but probably would recommend them to start with Provence. Give me a call and come by and have a glass.

Natalie MacLean 00:37:03 Oh, you’ll get people taking you up on that.

Rasmus Emborg & Jens Honore 00:37:07 Provence is the heartland of Rosé, and it’s not only about what’s been going on in the past 15, 20 years. I mean, Rosé has been big in Provence for many, many years. And as we’ve talked about a lot now that some really good wine is being made now. But please allow yourself to explore the world. Go to Champagne and see how they deal with, Rosé.

Natalie MacLean 00:37:33 Where it’s the most expensive Champagne. The Rosé.

Rasmus Emborg & Jens Honore 00:37:36 Exactly, exactly.

Natalie MacLean 00:37:37 The hardest to make.

Rasmus Emborg & Jens Honore 00:37:38 Yeah, because the red wine you put into the Champagne also needs to be from the Champagne area. And actually, it’s quite tough to do a good Pinot Noir in this cold area. But with global warming, it’s getting easier. And then you have the kind of the old wine countries like Spain and Italy, they are on the move. Spain produces a whole lot of Rosé.

Natalie MacLean 00:38:01 Well, and you mentioned Heredia like another one that we didn’t get to dive into because of time. But they aged their Rosés ten years before they released them. Is that correct?

Rasmus Emborg & Jens Honore 00:38:11 They do everything opposite from everybody else. I mean, most producers, when they’re willing to be fresh, no oxidation, and they actually want to put it on the market just after they have picked the grapes, just to cut it short. Lopez de Heredia, they put the wine in big oak barrels where they get a lot of oxidation, and then they age wine for at least ten years. And I mean, it’s a splendid wine. However, it’s very difficult to get because they produce a very low number of bottles. And actually every now and then some years they don’t produce Rosé wine because they don’t think the grapes are good for Rosé wine. That year they skipped five vintages.

Natalie MacLean 00:38:56 Oh, wow.

Rasmus Emborg & Jens Honore 00:38:57 Germany is developing. The United States. You know, we have two producers Daou from California and Wölffer from Long Island, they seem to be following this Provence style Rosé. The pale, crisp, dry wine. But using different grapes. Well, they also use a Grenache, but the Wölffer has the workhorse of that Rosé wine is Mello. So even though the style is the same, you have some differences and this is what you experience. When you dig into the world of Rosé is that you find out that Rosé is not just Rosé. It’s very diverse and it brings you a lot of great experiences.

Natalie MacLean 00:39:37 Absolutely. And I have to add, in Canada, our Rosés are spectacular. We have a cool climate. We excel at Pinot Noir, Riesling, cool climate Chardonnay. But the Rosés, both still in sparkling, are pretty amazing. It’s just most of them don’t get outside of the country because the production is small and artisanal. But Rosés in Canada are very much worth trying. So you have to come here.

Rasmus Emborg & Jens Honore 00:39:58 Yeah, we have to go.

Natalie MacLean 00:39:59 Yes, you must visit. So Niagara, which just borders the US, the Okanagan Valley in B.C., Nova Scotia. The Annapolis Valley. The Eastern Townships, another one of the warmer areas in Quebec. Those are the four major grape regions producing Rosés. There’s fruit wineries in other provinces that  are, well, well worth visiting. So for your next edition.

Rasmus Emborg & Jens Honore 00:40:25 I was up in Nova Scotia for a wine tasting. We had Riesling and we also had Gewürztraminer that was pretty good. And we had some Canadian ice wine, which was really good.

Natalie MacLean 00:40:35 Yeah. Where were you tasting? Which winery?

Rasmus Emborg & Jens Honore 00:40:37 I don’t remember. We visited five different ones in two days, and I was actually up there doing a photo session, and we had some extra time. There was our producer who was local, who say you got some extra time? You like wine? Sure. Like we just like yeah.

Natalie MacLean 00:40:51 Oh. That’s terrific. This has been terrific, this conversation. I want to thank you both. I know there’s parts. We’ll have to have a part two sometime, but is there anything we haven’t covered that you want to mention before we wrap up?

Rasmus Emborg & Jens Honore 00:41:03 I just want to show the camera I used. I brought it up here. That gave us a lot of challenges as well as some great experiences. That’s the camera.

Natalie MacLean 00:41:13 It’s like old fashioned, like accordion. Not the lens, but the attachment.

Rasmus Emborg & Jens Honore 00:41:18 You just need this.

Natalie MacLean 00:41:19 What does that do? Oh, and he puts the thing over his head.

Rasmus Emborg & Jens Honore 00:41:23 Yes.

Natalie MacLean 00:41:23 Yes. The old fashioned kind. Is that what you were using to photograph the book?

Rasmus Emborg & Jens Honore 00:41:30 That gets used for all the portraits. For us, it’s a way to show that this is a professionalism. It’s craftsmanship is art history. I mean, for that reason, we don’t use stock photos. My writing is not based on press releases. Everything we write is something that we have experienced, and we really hope that this joyride that it’s been to make this book, that when you read the book that you can actually feel this and all these experiences that we have had. And we’ve just mentioned a few of them here today, Natalie, that you just get a hint of them and maybe it gives you the urge to visit some of the places and travel around the world and get some of the experiences we’ve had.

Natalie MacLean 00:42:13 Your book would be actually a perfect bucket list, like a checklist. Your 13 producers. Read the story, the back story, and then go visit. I think that would be a great way to organize vacations for the next 13 years at least. I think that everybody should get your book and have fun with it that way. Or at least do a tasting at home with all the wines you’ve tasted.

Rasmus Emborg & Jens Honore 00:42:34 So, Natalie, do you have a favourite rosé?

Natalie MacLean 00:42:36 Well, Rosé is my go to and I tend to drink Tavel. I kind of buy it by the case, and the one that I really love is Chateau d’Aquaria. I just love it. It’s the method. To me, it’s got all the flavour of a lovely red wine. I used to drink Pinot Noir a lot, but I’ve kind of migrated to Rosé. But none of the downside of oak, tannin, high alcohol, whatever. Well the alcohol can get up there with Tavel, but I just find it a refreshing drink because you can chill it, too.  Thank you so much, both of you. This has been marvelous. I could definitely talk to you for a couple more hours. Where can we find you both online? You and your book.

Rasmus Emborg & Jens Honore 00:43:25 So we actually have a dedicated page on Instagram called The Rosé Revolution. We’re a little too old for the game of social media, so we’re not very good at it. My personal one is Jens Honoré on my Instagram account. That’s a lot about that book there, too. And then we are with our names on Facebook where we’ve written about it and the release parties and the different podcasts we’ve been on and so on and so on. And then the book is available online or Amazon.com, Barnes and Nobles and so on for the North American market.

Natalie MacLean 00:43:56 Probably Indigo chapters as well. Fantastic. We’ll put all those links in the show notes so that people can find you and find the book and order it. So I’m going to say thank you so much. It’s been marvelous talking to you. And I do highly recommend your book to everyone listening. So cheers and congratulations on the book.

Rasmus Emborg & Jens Honore 00:44:15 Thanks, Natalie. It’s been a pleasure. Thanks for having us.

Rasmus Emborg & Jens Honore 00:44:18 Thank you.

Natalie MacLean 00:44:18 Okay. Take care.

Rasmus Emborg & Jens Honore 00:44:20 You too.

Natalie MacLean 00:44:25 Well, there you have it. I hope you enjoyed our chat with Jens and Rasmus. Here are my takeaways. Why is Rosé the go to wine for celebrity owned brands rather than, say, Chardonnay or Cabernet? As Rasmussen Yens explain, rosé is much easier to embrace for a broad audience. Rosé has a lot of lovers, but it doesn’t have a lot of haters. So you could be a serious musician, a rock star, a pop star, movie celeb, whatever and embrace Rosé. And when you’re a celebrity and not a winemaker, it’s also far more bankable and easy to market. The two of them have tried a lot of these Rosés, and some of them are pretty good they think. A pretty big bang for your buck. So think Brad Pitt’s Miraval. John Legend, I think it’s LVE. Sarah Jessica Parker often works with a brand called X or the Vivo or something. Jon Bon Jovi has Hampton Water. Cameron Diaz and Kylie Minogue.

Natalie MacLean 00:45:26 Number two. Why are younger generations of wine drinkers choosing Rosé over red? Rasmus and Jens observe that young people don’t drink a lot of red wine, but they do drink white and Rosé because it’s a very celebratory wine. The Rosé has  become a wine that you gather round. You don’t disagree about it. You can’t talk down to someone because they don’t know the terroir and the grapes, etc. and if the rosé is endorsed by a rapper or a movie star or whatever, it enhances the experience.

Natalie MacLean 00:45:58 And number three, is the Rosé boom just a trend or is its popularity here to stay? Well, the two believe that Rosé has established itself firmly as a third wine category. They expect quality will continue to improve along with higher price points, and that they’ll still be a lot of boring Rosé produced. In France, three out of ten bottles consumed are Rosé. Globally, it’s about one out of ten. They see a continued trend of Rosé taking market share away from red wine, whereas white wine will be stable.

Natalie MacLean 00:46:23 In the show notes, you’ll find a full transcript of my conversation with Jens and Rasmus, links to their websites and book the video versions of these conversations on Facebook and YouTube live, and where you can order my book online no matter where you live, including Amazon. You can have Amazon deliver it to you in the Amazon. Now, if you missed episode 324, go back and take a listen. I chat about why Languedoc wines are capturing worldwide attention, including their rosés, with author Rosemary George. I’ll share a short clip with you now to whet your appetite.

Natalie MacLean 00:47:07 So how would you define the Languedoc identity compared to Roussillon?

Rosemary George 00:47:11 They are completely different because Roussillon was part of Spain until the treaty of the Pyrenees in 1659. And the Languedoc, you know, is French. I mean, Roussillon speaks Catalan. They see themselves as Northern Catalonia. That the Pyrenees for Roussillon is a unifying. It does not divide them from Spain. It unites them. Whereas Languedoc speaks Occitan. And it has a different history. And the wine, because the key grape variety of Roussillon is Grenache, and that was also used for Vin Doux Naturel fortified wines, the likes of Banyuls, Maury and Rivesaltes. They are the ones that have matured in barrel and last for years. One of the great wines in the world and totally under-appreciated. Languedoc doesn’t have that tradition to the same extent.

Natalie MacLean 00:48:00 You won’t want to miss next week when we chat with Caro Feely, author of Grape Expectations. She’ll join us from her farm and vineyard in France. If you liked this episode or learned even one thing from it, please email or tell one friend about the podcast this week, especially someone you know who’d be interested in learning more about rosé wines. It’s easy to find my podcast. Just tell them to search for Natalie MacLean Wine on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, their favourite podcast app, or they can listen to my show on the website at nataliemaclean.com/podcast. Email me if you have a sip, tip, question, or if you’d like to win one of three copies of Vines in a Cold Climate. I’d also love to hear your thoughts on this episode, or if you’ve read my book or are listening to it. Email me at [email protected]. In the show notes, you’ll find a link to take a free online food and wine pairing class with me called The Five Wine and Food Pairing Mistakes That Can Ruin Your dinner and How to Fix Them Forever at nataliemaclean.com. And that’s all in the show notes at nataliemaclean.com.

Natalie MacLean 00:49:08 337. Thank you for taking the time to join me here. I hope something great is in your glass this week, perhaps a celebrity rosé that actually delivers more than just a name. You don’t want to miss one juicy episode of this podcast, especially the secret full bodied bonus episodes that I don’t announce on social media. So subscribe for free now at nataliemaclean.com. Meet me here next week. Cheers.

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