Why did the Rhone region ban flying saucers? Matt Walls reveals the story behind why that rule still exists

Natalie MacLean
Dec17th

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Introduction

Which French wine region banned flying saucers from landing in its vineyards and why is the rule still there? How did the devastating February 1956 frost reshape the southern Rhône into the vineyard landscape we know today? What sets the northern Rhone apart from the south in terms of grapes and winemaking style?

In this episode of the Unreserved Wine Talk podcast, I’m chatting with Matt Walls, author of The Smart Traveller’s Wine Guide to the Rhone Valley.

You can find the wines we discussed here.

 

Giveaway

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Highlights

  • How did a family picnic become a memorable introduction to the northern Rhone?
  • How did a visit to a small producer in Crozes Hermitage turn into an unforgettable travel mishap?
  • Why does Châteauneuf du Pape have a rule specifically forbidding the landing of flying saucers in vineyards?
  • How is the Rhone Valley laid out geographically and what distinguishes the northern Rhone from the southern Rhone?
  • How much wine does the Rhone produce each year compared to other regions in France?
  • What was the moment that made Matt fall in love with Hermitage wines?
  • What was it like for Matt to move his family from London to a village near Avignon?
  • How does the culture of Rhone winemakers differ from regions like Bordeaux or Champagne?
  • What practical advice does Matt have for getting the most out of visits to Rhone wineries?
  • What makes The Smart Traveler’s Wine Guide to the Rhone Valley different from other wine books?
  • What unexpected part of his research led Matt to fall in love with Lyon?

 

Key Takeaways

  • Which French wine region banned flying saucers from landing in its vineyards and why is the rule still there?
    • Within the Chateauneuf du Pape, it’s called the cahiers des charges, which is basically the rulebook of how you’re allowed to make wine within the appellation. There is a statement which says, winemakers may not use their vineyards to land flying saucers. It’s absolutely not allowed. So this was put in in the 1960s, and there was this big kind of panic about flying saucers and little green men and they thought, well, you know, we ought to put something about it in the cahiers des charges in case this ever comes up. And it’s still there today. I think it’s easier just to leave it there than to go through the whole kind of rigmarole for getting it removed.
  • How did the devastating February 1956 frost reshape the southern Rhône into the vineyard landscape we know today?
    • 1956 was a turning point in the way that people lived and worked and farmed in the southern Rhone. Before that point, it was very much a kind of polycultural land. So individual estates, people would have some olives, some grapevines, some fig trees, some carrots, some wheat and so it was kind of a mixed agriculture. But after 1956… this really wiped out the olive trees. Olive oil is so important to the region, and it was very important for people’s livelihoods. They could have replanted the olive trees, but the problem is that they would take about ten years to bear fruit, and people needed something that would give them a crop immediately in order for them to survive. So something which they knew they could sell easily, travelled well, kept well, and would give a crop quickly was a grapevine. So people went from this kind of polycultural way of life to a relatively monocultural landscape. That was a big turning point in the modern history of the Rhone region.
  •  What sets the northern Rhone apart from the south in terms of grapes and winemaking style?
    • One of the big differences between the northern Rhone and the southern Rhone is that the northern Rhone, they only use one red grape variety, which is Syrah. In the north, they have a whole smorgasbord of different grape varieties and the culture there is to blend. So that’s one of the similarities between the northern Rhone and Burgundy is that they have a single red grape variety like Pinot Noir. Also they have quite a single-vineyard way of working. The estates tend to be very small in the northern Rhone compared to the southern Rhone. Part of this is because a lot of the northern Rhone are very tightly sloping, very difficult vineyards to work. But I think this kind of smallholding, single-vineyard, single-parcel way of working is certainly more Burgundian than the south.

 

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The whites have a lovely, velvety texture, and the reds have an imposing size, but everything is in balance and proportioned. That’s why I love the wines of Hermitage so much. - Matt Walls Matt Walls Click to tweet

 

About Matt Walls

Matt Walls is an award-winning freelance wine writer, author and consultant who contributes to various UK and international publications such as Club Oenologique and Decanter, where he is a contributing editor. He also judges wine and food competitions, develops wine apps and presents trade and consumer tastings. Matt is interested in all areas of wine, but specialises in the Rhône Valley – he is Regional Chair for the Rhône at the Decanter World Wine Awards.

 

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Transcript

Natalie MacLean 00:00:00 Which French wine region banned flying saucers from landing in its vineyards in the 1960s, and why is that rule still in place? How did the devastating February 1956 frost reshaped the southern Rhone valley into the vineyard landscape we know today? And what sets the northern Rhone apart from the south in terms of grapes and winemaking style? In today’s episode, you’ll hear the stories and tips that answer those questions in our chat with Matt Wells, author of The Smart Traveler’s Wine Guide to the Rhone Valley. By the end of our conversation, you’ll also discover how a family picnic became a memorable introduction to the northern Rhone. For Matt, how a visit to a small producer in Crowe’s Hermitage turned into an unforgettable travel mishap. How the Rhone Valley is laid out geographically. How much wine the Rhone produces each year compared to other regions in France. The moment that made Matt fall in love with Armitage Wines. What it was like for him to move his family from London to a village near Avignon. How the culture of Rome winemakers differs from regions like Bordeaux and Champagne.

Natalie MacLean 00:01:16 Matt’s practical advice for getting the most out of your visit to Rhone Valley wineries, and what makes the smart traveler’s wine guide to the Rhone Valley different from other books about the Rhone?

Natalie MacLean 00:01:34 Do you have a thirst to learn about wine? Do you love stories about wonderfully obsessive people, hauntingly beautiful places, and amusingly awkward social situations? Well, that’s the blend here on the Unreserved Wine Talk podcast. I’m your host, Natalie MacLean, and each week I share with you unfiltered conversations with celebrities in the wine world, as well as confessions from my own tipsy journey as I write my third book on this subject. I’m so glad you’re here. Now pass me that bottle, please, and let’s get started.

Natalie MacLean 00:02:16 Welcome to episode 368. So what’s new in the wine world this week? The light weighting conversation has gone mainstream. Influencers are now flaunting the thinnest glass bottles online as a status symbol of sustainability, making heavy prestige bottles look increasingly out of touch. Light weighting. The marketing buzzword also this week is I week.

Natalie MacLean 00:02:46 Week. If you know, you know, spirits and wine brands are pivoting away from flashy, logo heavy campaigns toward secret experiences and knowledge based exclusivity. We’re seeing a rise in culinary cocktails, where the marketing focuses on kitchen ingredients like olive oil and butter, rather than just the spirit itself. A great example of this cultural crossover is Bacardi, which recently launched a vinyl record made of sugar cane to pair music directly with their rum. A clever, multi-sensory play on the ground, wineries are wrapping all of this in experiences. Some producers are hosting laughs in a glass, stand up shows, wine and comedy evenings proof that the hottest content pillar might be just making people snort their chardonnay out of their noses. No, that is funny, but not if you’re the person doing it. I know from personal experience under the Waves Australian Project subsea estate and an LV ocean aged marble sparkling wine experiment are aging bottles 25m down in the ocean, retrieving them barnacle dusted but astonishingly fresh. While a London tasting menu has offered full pairings built entirely on underwater aged wines.

Natalie MacLean 00:04:06 At restaurant 1890, in the Gulf of Naples, an entrepreneur has sunk 4000 bottles, along with oil and vinegar to create an underwater cellar that doubles as a dive tourism attraction. Well, that gives new meaning to the word dive bar, a new San Francisco Chronicle piece says Gen Z travelers are now using AI chat bots to plan Napa Valley itineraries, which means somewhere out there, a robot has just recommended a cheese board and a selfie spot on your behalf. Crystal Palace Wine Club in London, England, is promoting a tasting hosted by AI, with the poster joking that it’s time to embrace our new robot overlords. Give them the good wine people. The marketing trend this week is the digital Somalia. We’re seeing a surge in wineries replacing static back labels with QR codes that don’t just go to the website, but launch living labels and AI driven tasting assistants. It’s no longer about shelf appeal. It’s about the second screen experience at the dinner table. Put that phone away. I mean, put that bottle away.

Natalie MacLean 00:05:15 Italian vineyards are experimenting with solar powered robots that flap wing light panels and use UV light to fight vine disease. While Cornell researchers in New York have rolled out an autonomous scouting robot that spots grapevine disease as accurately as human experts in California, winery dogs that have special skills are apparently sniffing out cork taint. The wine crime files for 2025 are truly bonkers. In London, a 61 year old pedicab driver was arrested after stealing £31,000. I guess that’s about $60,000 worth of fine wine from three different restaurants, using the most audaciously observed getaway car imaginable. He loaded 73 bottles into a wheelie bin and then attached it to his tuk tuk rickshaw and pedalled off into the night. CCTV captured footage of him leisurely cycling away his bin full of first class Burgundy. Then there’s this sobering Ponzi scheme that collapsed in October. Two British men admitted to defrauding investors of $99.4 million by claiming the money would be backed in high interest loans secured by collectible rare wines. Plot twist. Of course, these wines never existed. Neither did The Borrowers.

Natalie MacLean 00:06:37 The whole thing was smoke, mirrors and very expensive bottles that were purely fictional. And some bizarre news. We have a report from Poland where two men in their 60s were hospitalized after trying to dismantle a World War Two artillery shell while intoxicated. Proof that liquid courage is rarely a good safety advisor. On a lighter note, there’s a new hangover museum that has been making headlines in Croatia collecting objects people wake up with but couldn’t remember acquiring. I wonder if my stuff’s in there. December 17th is National Maple Syrup Day celebrating Canada’s liquid gold. And I mean the other liquid gold, not ice wine. Quebec produces 70% of the world’s maple syrup supply. Celebrate by making a pancake breakfast bar with real maple syrup. Not that fake stuff. Great maple cocktails or Glacier holiday ham with maple syrup. Or make a good old maple old fashioned. You could also have a sugar shack. Dinner doesn’t have to just be breakfast or Canadian cocktail hour or sugar on the snow. If you have fresh snow, make sure it’s fresh.

Natalie MacLean 00:07:51 Nothing with any yellow stains. Or you could try shaved ice. Boil syrup to the softball stage at about 115°C, and pour it in lines over the snow to make instant maple taffy. Fun facts. It takes 40l of sap to make one liter of syrup. It’s the same equation 40 gallons of sap to make one gallon of syrup. The indigenous peoples invented maple syrup. The Iroquois created the tapping and boiling process. The Great Maple syrup heist of 2012 saw thieves steal £6 million of sap, worth $18 million from Quebec’s strategic reserve. Maple trees must be at least 40 years old before tapping, and Canada produces 13 million gallons annually versus the US’s 4.2 million gallons. December 30th is National Sangria Day. This fruity Spanish wine punch gets its own celebration. It’s a wine based punch traditionally made with red wine, chopped fruit, a sweetener, and often a spirit like brandy. You can host a sangria tasting party where everybody brings their own version. Make a winter sangria, maybe with cinnamon and cranberries. Pair it with tapas like cheese, olives, and chorizo.

Natalie MacLean 00:09:08 The word sangria comes from the Spanish word sangria, meaning blood, referring to the dark red color of the traditional wine based. Historically, sangria was a safety measure because, of course, in ancient times, water was unsafe to drink, whereas wine killed the bacteria. Romans mixed wine with water, herbs and spices. It was introduced to the US at the 1964 New York World’s Fair, and by European law. Only sangria made in Spain or Portugal can officially be labeled sangria. Fruit should marinate in wine for several hours or overnight for the best flavor. And finally, December 21st is National Cogito Day. Puerto Rico’s little coconut Christmas drink. The Caribbean’s answer to eggnog. Make some homemade stuff with Puerto Rican rum, coconut milk, coconut cream, condensed milk, vanilla and cinnamon. Served chilled in shot glasses dusted with cinnamon. Cogito means little coconut. And unlike traditional eggnog, authentic mojito recipes do not contain raw eggs. Though some families add egg yolks for richness. It relies on the coconut fat for its creamy texture.

Natalie MacLean 00:10:20 Fun facts. It tastes even better 2 to 3 days after making it. The comedian Jimmy Fallon introduced movie star Nicole Kidman to Cogito on The Tonight Show. Since 2018, Chicago hosts the National Cogito Festival with competitions. December 21st is also the winter solstice, the shortest day of the year. Yay! Now they’ll be getting longer hour days. And the reason the Romans celebrated Saturnalia, its perfect time to open that ice wine and celebrate making it through the darkest day. If you have any wine, news or a quirky story you think I should share on the podcast. Email me at Natalie at Natalie MacLean dot com on Instagram. I’m at Natalie MacLean Wine, where I share wine picks, wine mistakes, and all sorts of other tips. This week on CTV’s The Social, we chat about how as winter settles in and temperatures drop, many of us will reach for a cozy blanket and a comforting glass of wine. But what makes wine a winter warmer beyond pure alcohol? Well, we’ve got you covered. We’re looking at wines that warm you from the inside out.

Natalie MacLean 00:11:26 Perfect for cold weather evenings or quiet nights by the fire. Pray tell, what are their characteristics? Well, maybe it’s cold outside. So you’ll want winter warmers that have four things in common. Number one, they often have higher alcohol content 13.5% or above. Think of it as central heating. That actually tastes good too. They’re more full bodied. Three. Many offer dark fruit flavors and spices, and for they have a richer, velvety texture that coats your palate. It’s like your mouth is getting tucked into bed, but not in the weird way that sounds. Essentially, these wines give you a warm hug from the inside. Now, many of us don’t think of sparkling wine as a winter warmer, but of course, I’ve twisted it into one. So sparkling wines, I believe, are like other wines in that they come in lighter and bolder styles. The latter tend to leave with red grapes in the blend, and have longer aging and oak, or on the lees, those spent yeast cells.

Natalie MacLean 00:12:25 The Jackson Triggs Sparkling Reserve from Niagara is an elegant sparkler that proves that bubbles aren’t just for summer. This reserve has a toasty, freshly baked bread character, giving it a depth that many sparkling wines don’t have. This wine delivers fine, persistent bubbles that creates a luxurious, creamy texture on your palate. This is a winter bubbly. It knows how to dress in layers, and it makes you why any other carbonated beverage bothers trying. It’s just 1795, so it’s an incredible value for sparkling wine, especially when you consider that most champagnes start at $80. You’ll notice beautiful notes of baked apple, honey, and toasted almonds. The balanced acidity makes it incredibly food friendly, cutting through rich flavors. The wine’s extended aging on lees creates those toasty, bread like flavors that make you feel cozy by the fireplace. This Ontario wine celebrates Canadian winter with hometown pride. These grapes know what -20 feels like. They get it. Patriotism has never tasted this great. Ooh. Next up, we have a Sauvignon Blanc. Now, why on earth would this crisp white be a winter warmer? Sauvignon blanc is what I call a frosty winter white.

Natalie MacLean 00:13:38 It’s crisp, clean and refreshing, like a bracing walk through a fresh snow. In fact, drinking this inside while it is storming outside is a total power move. It says I respect the snow, but I do not have to participate in it. Amen. I enjoy the great indoors. Personally, the oyster Bay Sauvignon Blanc from New Zealand was named best Sauvignon Blanc in the world in a prestigious competition that is like winning gold at the Refreshment Olympics. It’s just 1795, so it’s a steal of a deal. This wine is bursting with bright citrus flavours of lime, citrus and passionfruit. The zesty acidity acts like a palate cleanser, preventing flavor fatigue during those multi-course comfort meals we love in the winter, it brings a welcome brightness to darker winter evenings, like a ray of sunshine breaking through grey skies. This crisp white is also a welcome break from heavier reds and fortified wines. It’s proof that not all warming wines need to be dark and brooding. Are there any other types of white wines that work well in winter? Yes, in fact, there are robust whites such as oak aged Chardonnays and Rhone Valley whites also work in that they’re full bodied with luxuriously rich textures.

Natalie MacLean 00:14:51 Now we’re moving into cozy reds, starting with Cabernet Franc. It’s one of the big three red wines in blends, along with Cab Soave, Cabernet Sauvignon and Merlot. It adds depth and color along with winter warmth, even though it’s very elegant. Thank you very much. Think of it as the middle child who turned out surprisingly well and brings excellent wine to family gatherings instead of more drama. The Phantom Creek Cobar Vineyard Cabernet Franc, a premium BC wine, showcases the absolute best of the Okanagan Valley wine making. Their commitment to quality means you get concentrated, dark fruit flavors and the kind of complexity that rewards slow, thoughtful savoring on long winter nights. It also has a lot more structural integrity then my New Year’s resolutions. The wine has a bold character and full body, delivering layers of blackberry, dark cherry, licorice and cedar. You’ll find velvety tannins that coat your palate without overwhelming it, achieving that perfect balance between power and elegance. The wine’s depth and intensity make it an ideal companion for fireside gatherings.

Natalie MacLean 00:15:59 Whether you’re hosting friends or enjoying quiet solo moments of reflection, this bottle is more expensive than the others at $72, but worth the splurge, especially at this time of the year when you want to give an extra special bottle or treat yourself. It tastes like it’s twice the price. Supporting Canadian wineries during the winter also means that you’re enjoying wines made to complement the seasons you experience, not a mediterranean climate halfway around the world, and these particular grapes have earned their stripes. Phantom creek’s survived a devastating frost in B.C. last year that would have made lesser vineyards pack it in. But this is the true north where we don’t quit just because Mother Nature tried to cancel us. Those vines look at -20 and said, hey, is that all you got? And that, my friends, is what makes us Canadian. Oh, okay. Getting carried away. Continuing on next, we’re moving on to a Shiraz, which is a classic warming wine that’s full bodied and mouth filling. While the alcohol level can be higher than average, it’s always in balance with deep, dark fruit flavors.

Natalie MacLean 00:17:07 The formula Robert Shiraz from Small Gully Wines, is a bold Australian Shiraz that delivers spicy, full throttle warmth, making it a winter essential. The wine is packed with peppery notes and dark fruit that coat your palate like a cashmere blanket. A father and son team create small batch wines from vines that are almost 60 years old. Those vines have seen things they remember when people used to still use phone books that results in a dense concentration of blackberry, plum, and licorice flavors, offering lasting satisfaction. The robust tannins and the full body are perfect match for grilled meats and the richest comfort foods. This wine can handle whatever your oven has been doing for the past three hours. And finally, we’re ending with a bold Italian red. The Tommasi Amaro del Valpolicella from Italy is an iconic wine that is perhaps the ultimate winter warmer. It’s so rich and velvety it feels like it should come with a velvet cape. And for a trim, it’s crafted using the ancient Espacio mento method, where the grapes are partially dried for several months, concentrating their sugars and flavors into a rich, velvety elixir.

Natalie MacLean 00:18:19 The grapes basically go through their own spa retreat before becoming wine. Very luxe, the Tommasi is intensely concentrated, with notes of dried cherry, fig, mocha, chocolate and warming baking spices that evoke Christmas pudding and holiday indulgence? It’s like the Ghost of Christmas desserts past, present and future. All showed up in your glass at once. This coin is $48.95, and it is also worth the splurge for yourself or someone special. You’ll be surprised at the jump in quality and taste that you’ll experience with a wine like this. The wine’s luxurious texture and complex flavors unfold slowly, rewarding, contemplative sipping with a good book or great conversation. This is a cozy sweater for your soul, the kind you never want to take off. Though you probably should wash it at some point. And a final word of wisdom. Winter is already giving us weather that makes us question our life choices, so let’s at least enjoy what we’re drinking. Choose wines that make you happy. Pair them with food that makes you happier and share them with the people who make you the happiest.

Natalie MacLean 00:19:24 Or don’t share them at all. Both approaches are completely valid. No judgment on upcoming TV shows such as CTV or morning, CTV’s Breakfast Television, Cp24 Breakfast Show, CHC Morning Live and CTV’s The Social. We’ll be chatting about terrific wines and spirits for Valentine’s Day gifts and romantic dinners, as well as those for Galentine’s and bromance that celebrate the more lasting bond of friendship. Let me know if you like your brand featured on these TV segments or future ones, or if you’d like to advertise with us through our podcast, newsletter, website, social media or mobile apps. If you represent a winery, distillery, brewery or an agency or regional council representing wines, spirits, cocktails, cheese or other food brands. Email me at Natalie at Natalie MacLean. Com. Back to today’s episode. Two of you are going to win a copy of Matt’s terrific new book, The Smart Travelers Wine Guide to the Rhone Valley. I still have one copy left of Chas McCoy’s pairing for the People to Give Away, and one of Elva Ramirez books, sparkling with cocktails, and I have one left of Simon Hardy’s The Smart Traveler’s Wine Guide to Switzerland.

Natalie MacLean 00:20:41 If you’d like to win a copy of any of these books, please email me and let me know. You’d like to win. It doesn’t matter where you live, I’ll choose the winners randomly from those who contact me at Natalie at Natalie MacLean dot com. In other bookish news, if you’re reading the paperback or e-book or listening to the audiobook of my memoir, Wine Witch on Fire Rising from the Ashes of Divorce, defamation, and Drinking Too Much, a national bestseller in one of Amazon’s best books of the year. I’d love to hear from you. Did you know it’s set during the Christmas holidays? So as cheerless as the title sounds, it’s actually got a very nice holiday vibe. I’ll put a link in the show notes to all retailers worldwide at Natalie MacLean 4368, and you can read it over your Christmas vacation. Okay, on with the show. Matt Wells is an award winning freelance wine writer, author and consultant who contributes to various wine publications including Club and Decanter, where he is a contributing editor.

Natalie MacLean 00:21:42 He also judges wine and food competitions, develops wine apps, and presents trade and consumer tastings. Matt is interested in all areas of wine, but definitely specializes in the Rhone Valley and is regional chair for the Rhone at Decanter Wine World Wine Awards. He joins us now from his home in Kent, England. Welcome, Matt. We’re so glad you could be here with us.

Matt Walls 00:22:05 Thank you. Natalie. Lovely to be here.

Natalie MacLean 00:22:08 All right. Terrific. So let’s start with some of your more memorable wine moments before we dive into the Rhone. Tell us about when your family went for a picnic on the hill of Hermitage. Maybe tell us where Hermitage is in Rhone. But, yeah, tell us about that.

Matt Walls 00:22:25 So that was a memorable for all the wrong reasons, sadly so. The hill of Hermitage is in the northern Rhone, at the end of the southern pole of the northern Rhone, and it’s this majestic hill which kind of rises up with the Rhone at its base. And it’s this absolutely fabulous tower, like some of my favorite wines in the whole world.

Matt Walls 00:22:41 And I was on holiday with my partner Luisa, who’s now my wife. But this shortly before I think it was. No, it was just after we got married. I love the Rhone. She’s keen on the wines of the Rhone as well. So we went on holiday there. We went with my son Jay, who was about one year old at the time. We wanted to go on a picnic one day. We were staying near the hill of Hermitage, so I thought, well, why don’t we go to the top of the hill of Hermitage? These majestic views, we can sit down, we can have a bite to eat. So we thought we’d drive up to the top because we had Jay. He was a baby. And, you know, we couldn’t really kind of carry it up the hill. So we thought we’d drive up to the top. And I knew you could get there because I’d been up there with winemakers in the past. So often with winemakers, you’re going up in like in a big 4×4.

Matt Walls 00:23:17 And I didn’t really kind of think about the roads very much. So there was one house, there was one single private residence on the hill of Hermitage. It belongs to Jean-Louis Scharf, who at the time and still is actually a great hero of mine, actually, to be, to be honest. So we drove half way up in the roadside again, a little bit bumpy, and we managed to beach the car on this hump right outside his house. I couldn’t believe it, really. And I was trying to kind of push this car off this hump. And then my baby was crying in the back and then the castle, the kind of leaking all this liquid, and I could see kind of movement from within the house. I thought, oh my God, no, don’t come out now. It’s going to be so embarrassing.

Natalie MacLean 00:23:52 The way you meet your hero.

Matt Walls 00:23:54 Is the a really bad way to meet your hero. But fortunately, I mostly get it off this hump and we skipped the picnic in the end.

Natalie MacLean 00:23:59 Oh. Did you? Okay. Did you ever meet J.L. shove?

Matt Walls 00:24:03 Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. So fortunate enough to go and visit him normally once a year. So sometimes slightly more, depending on what I’m writing about. He’s just an absolutely fabulous winemaker. Love his wines.

Natalie MacLean 00:24:13 Renowned. Absolutely. That’s great. I’m glad you escaped. And then you visited a producer in Crowe’s Hermitage again. Was this with Jay again? And something else happened?

Matt Walls 00:24:24 Yeah. So this was the same trip, actually. So we were staying in Cross Hermitage, which is the area. It’s a little village just near the hill of Hermitage. We went to go and visit this little producer. We kind of we drove past and, and it just it looked like such a charming scene and it just looks like such a beautiful spot. I didn’t really know the producer was a guy called Monsieur Ange means angel. So we dropped in. We thought we’d kind of taste through some wines. We were sitting outside and Louise was wearing this lovely white dress, and we had.

Matt Walls 00:24:51 And she was holding Jay, who was in his nappies. And, he’s going to be mortified if he ever hears that I tell this story, by the way. And anyway, we heard this kind of rumbling noise and, this kind of little look on his face, and we thought, oh, no, we know what’s coming. But it was a big explosion, and it just kind of went all over her dress. And so we thought, oh, no, what are we going to do? Let’s just buy loads of wine as a form of apology. And there were lovely wines anyway. Got out of there.

Natalie MacLean 00:25:16 Did they have a barnyard smell to them?

Matt Walls 00:25:22 They? They do now.

Natalie MacLean 00:25:24 And then you visit a giggle.

Matt Walls 00:25:27 Yes. This was another time where I have learned not to take children to wineries, so I don’t know if you’ve ever been to giggle.

Natalie MacLean 00:25:36 I haven’t, I love the wines.

Matt Walls 00:25:37 Fabulous wines. Yeah. Great wines. So if you go into the main office area, there’s some sofas where you can wait and still have the art on the walls.

Matt Walls 00:25:45 And, and there’s various different artifacts that they’ve kind of dug up from the vineyards or found locally, including some of these beautiful old clay amphora. You know, they’re pretty big things, but in these little frames, they’re kind of standing up next to the, the sofas or whatever. I can’t remember if it was the same trip or a different trip. But again, you know, one of my kids was very young, kind of toddling around, and he knocks this amphora. I just sort of kind of wobbling like this. And I thought, oh my God, it’s got to fall over. And I managed to catch it just before it falls. But it absolutely scared us, scared the living daylights out of me. But I haven’t taken any of my kids to see giggles Since then.

Natalie MacLean 00:26:21 Are you going to write a separate book? Adventures on the Wine Route with kids.

Matt Walls 00:26:26 Oh, I should do. Shouldn’t I? Yeah. How to travel with children? Yeah. Don’t do what I did.

Natalie MacLean 00:26:31 Yeah. That’s great. So what’s the most fascinating or surprising piece of trivia that you can think of, or that you’d like to share with friends or dinner guests? Not too technical, but something I think.

Matt Walls 00:26:43 There’s one quite funny thing about Chateauneuf du Pape, and I think some of your US listeners and viewers would already know this one, but it’s not so well known outside it is that within the Chateauneuf du Pape it’s called the Cahir discharge, which is basically the rulebook of how you’re allowed to make wine within the appellation. There is a little statement which says winemakers may not use their vineyards to land flying saucers. It’s absolutely not allowed. So this was put in in the 1960s, and there was this big kind of panic about flying saucers and little green men and. Right. And they thought, well, you know, we would have put something about this in the air in the Cahir discharge in case this ever comes up. And it’s, you know, it’s still there today. I think it’s easier just to leave it there than to go through the whole kind of rigmarole of getting it removed.

Natalie MacLean 00:27:25 And that’s where Bonnie Doon gets its inspiration for Cigar Volant, isn’t it?

Matt Walls 00:27:29 Exactly. Yes. Yeah.

Natalie MacLean 00:27:30 He’s got a flying saucer on the label ship.

Matt Walls 00:27:33 Yeah. That’s what the French call a flying saucer. A cigar Volant, a flying cigar, because it’s a kind of cigar shape.

Natalie MacLean 00:27:39 Yeah. Okay. That’s so cool, I love that. Now, give us a visual map of the Rhone. Where is this region? Within France. How big is it? Maybe tell us what borders the Rhone.

Matt Walls 00:27:50 So the Rhone is basically the growing area. So it’s in south eastern France, and it’s between Lyon and Marseille. So Marseille is just there on the Mediterranean coast. So it’s this whole area which kind of runs between these two major cities, and it’s made up of two different regions. So there’s a northern Rhone, which is relatively small, directly south of Lyon, and it runs kind of directly north south. And then there’s a little break of, I don’t know, maybe 40km or so without any vineyards.

Matt Walls 00:28:21 And then there’s the southern Rhone, which is much larger. So if the northern Rhone is about 60km in length, the southern Rhone is about 80km in length, so lengthwise are about the same. Okay. But the northern Rhone is a very kind of tight area. So the vineyards really do overlook the Rhone itself. They’re on the riverbank, which are very steep in the southern Rhone. The area really spreads out among loads of little tributaries, and it’s actually much wider than it is long. So the southern road is much, much bigger. So those are kind of the two regions. So they share a few grape varieties. They share the main river. But apart from that they’re actually very different.

Natalie MacLean 00:28:56 And what wine regions border them is it would be like Provence or Languedoc or.

Matt Walls 00:29:02 Exactly. Yeah. So directly to the north you have Beaujolais and then Burgundy. When you think of the southern Rhone, to the west you have the longer doc and to the east you have Provence.

Natalie MacLean 00:29:15 Okay.

Matt Walls 00:29:15 So it’s kind of in between those two regions.

Natalie MacLean 00:29:18 Okay, cool. And approximately I know this will vary by vintage, but how much wine does the Rhone produce each year.

Matt Walls 00:29:25 In terms of the AOC wines, the appellation controller wines. So that’s everything from the top crew of Chateauneuf du Pape and Hermitage, right down to AOC Rhone, including areas like Ventoux and Luberon. So all of the Rhone valley, all of those areas creates about 350 million bottles a year. So if you compare it to, say, Bordeaux, Bordeaux is slightly larger. So geographically speaking, the Rhone is actually a slightly bigger area, but Bordeaux creates more wine. So Bordeaux makes about it’s more like 450 million bottles a year.

Natalie MacLean 00:29:57 Okay. Yeah, that helps the context. So you write that when you talk about wine, you can’t help but touch on local history, geography, culture and traditions. When did you first fall in love with the Rhone Valley and realized this was the region you really wanted to specialize in?

Matt Walls 00:30:14 I think it probably goes back to the first time I in fact.

Matt Walls 00:30:18 We go back to Hermitage again. The first time I tasted the wines of Hermitage. So before then, you know, I drank loads of bottles. I cut around and occasionally Chateauneuf du Pape, which would be lovely, but I think it’s when I tasted Hermitage that I realized, you know, okay, this is something really, really special. This is unlike anything I’ve ever tasted in the rest of the world. You know, the whites and the reds. I think it actually was the whites, which really struck me first. So this was when I was working in wine. It would be in the early 2000. That’s what I thought to myself. These ones are amazing. I personally find them absolutely delicious. I have to go and visit the region. I have to go and get to know this place. I have to go and see where these wines are from. So I think that was for me when I first kind of triggered my interest in the road.

Natalie MacLean 00:30:57 And what made them different. Were they? Is it hard to put words to it or.

Natalie MacLean 00:31:01 And I know all the wines are all different, but were they, I don’t know, brighter or what made them different from even other Rhone wines or.

Matt Walls 00:31:09 I think it’s like the proportions that Hermitage wines are so grand and large and impressive. The reds as much as the whites. They have this kind of regal character to them. They’re just so rich. They remind me of, like, the kind of the trimmings, like the ermine fur that you get around. Kind of.

Natalie MacLean 00:31:30 I was just thinking that way. I know.

Matt Walls 00:31:32 And they have a similar kind of lovely furry texture to them as well. This kind of velvety ness, And, you know, the reds, they just have this imposing size to them in terms of, you know, the tannins, the concentration. Everything about them is big, but everything about them is in balance and proportioned. That’s why I love the Wines of Hermitage so much.

Natalie MacLean 00:31:52 Wonderful. And then in 2018, you made a very bold decision to move your family from South London to the village of Chateauneuf de Gardyne.

Natalie MacLean 00:32:01 Gooding.

Matt Walls 00:32:02 Yes. Jordan.

Natalie MacLean 00:32:03 Okay. For two years to research your first book on the Rhone. How was that? Was that a difficult move, or did you run into lots of red tape or. I mean. How was the transition?

Matt Walls 00:32:14 It was funny, really, because the big things were easy, actually. So we thought what would be really difficult because we had two kids at the time, there were two and five. So we thought, what’s going to be really difficult is getting them into school, even though we don’t kind of really live there officially, we didn’t really have a permanent residence, but those things were kind of easy. We found somewhere to live. In fact, that was going to that was particularly tricky trying to find a rental property. As someone that didn’t live in France, that was almost impossible. So we actually had to go through Airbnb and kind of think around it. But we found somewhere eventually in this little village called Chateau Nova, which is quite near Avignon.

Matt Walls 00:32:48 So what we did is to get the kids into school. We just went to the Mairie, which is the mayoral office, and you meet the mayor and, you know, you kind of explain who you are and what you’re doing. You’re writing a book and it’s about the wines of the region, you know, can we put our kids into school? And he was like, sure, go ahead, no problem. Just take him along on the first day and that’ll be fine. So, you know, these big things actually turned out to be quite easy. It’s the little things like paying a parking fine or paying nursery fee. So these things would take forever, and you’d have to go to the right office at the right time. And then, you know, you go at the right time and then it would be closed. And then so you’d go another day and they’d say, oh, no, you need to bring your birth certificate. And you’re, you know, this card and that one.

Matt Walls 00:33:27 And then they’d change the rules every time, you know, for these little things. That’s what used to drive me mad about France. But, you know, living there was brilliant. No, we had a great time.

Natalie MacLean 00:33:34 That’s great. And you mentioned the book that the winemakers here wear t shirts, not suits. Can you tell us about it? Maybe a specific winemaker who embodies that down to earth Rhone spirit?

Matt Walls 00:33:45 So many of them. It’s very much a contrast to Bordeaux or Champagne, where people are very well dressed. And when you do meet people, often they’ll be wearing suits and it’s a little bit more formal. But in in the Rhone, I mean, there are so many people who are just it’s pretty casual. You know, you’ll have a meeting, you’ll just rock up to their cellar, and often it’s their house as well. Like, for example, Domaine Gallery in Kiran is one of my favorite estates in the southern row. If you’re going to go and taste there, you’ll just walk up to the winery and you’ll knock on the door and you know, you’ll hear them coming down from where they live upstairs.

Matt Walls 00:34:17 And they’ve been making wine there for since 1692. Their family has been making wine there. And there’s this big, like, kind of a chart on the wall detailing their whole family tree. But they’re completely down to earth, you know? So there’ll be Mallory and his son, John Etienne, you know, and they might just be in from the vineyard. So, you know, they might have kind of carrying their tools or whatever, but, you know, it’s the family. They’ve been working there for generations, and they’re just so welcoming and so down to earth. And and that’s something that I love about the Rhone, actually. It’s just that the people are so normal and so down to earth and so friendly.

Natalie MacLean 00:34:51 Awesome. Does that go for people visiting the region? Like, can you walk into tasting rooms or wineries if they have tasting rooms? I’m not sure how it works in the Rhone.

Matt Walls 00:35:01 Many do. Not all of them. It’s more common in the southern Rhone than the north.

Matt Walls 00:35:05 Unlike some areas which are more geared up for wine tourism, it’s always worth getting in touch with them first, so give them a call. Send them an email you may need to know about. Kind of. Can you park your car there or, you know, can you take your kids there or what time are they going to be open? Because in France, let’s not forget, lunch time is sacred. So if you turn up anywhere between like 12 and two, it’s going to be closed. So, you know, there are things like that to remember. Often there are tasting rooms, but you do need to call in advance to be safe.

Natalie MacLean 00:35:32 All right. Well, we’ve already started getting into a bit about what makes this new book different in terms of practical advice in visiting the Rhone. But tell us in a nutshell what the travelers wine guide to Rhone. I’m probably mixing all the words now.

Matt Walls 00:35:45 But I’ll do it too. Don’t worry.

Natalie MacLean 00:35:47 It’s like, okay, let’s just get there.

Natalie MacLean 00:35:49 Well, what makes it different from other books about the Rhone or even other, maybe even travel books about the Rhone?

Matt Walls 00:35:56 I think what makes it different is that it is written by somebody who is very much into the wine side of things, but I think that people who are wine experts in a particular region are actually quite well qualified to talk about the region. I visit so many little villages, you travel a lot going around. You have to obviously have to visit a winery, but you can meet the winemaker in a restaurant or whatever. But really you have to go visit the vineyards. You have to go and visit the wineries, which often means really kind of driving out into the countryside and driving around a lot, you know, so you get to know an area in quite a detailed way. And also, I’ve never met any wine people who aren’t also into food. And let’s face it, certainly everyone that I know when they’re on holiday, they want to eat really well. They want to go to good restaurants, they want to stay in good hotels and and they want to drink well.

Matt Walls 00:36:42 So it’s a travel guide with food and wine at its heart. Some people who are into food, you know, they may not know too much about wine, but everybody that’s into wine, they know about food as well. So I think that’s one of the strengths of this series, actually, is that you’re guaranteed to get the best of both worlds if you’re into eating and drinking.

Natalie MacLean 00:36:59 Oh, that’s great. And definitely you are speaking to your people through this podcast because I don’t know what you meant, but I’m the type of person that books the restaurants and then sees if there’s flights and hotels available.

Matt Walls 00:37:10 Yes, exactly.

Natalie MacLean 00:37:11 Get our priorities straight.

Matt Walls 00:37:14 Yes. Yeah. Yeah. And reading the wine list before you book the restaurant and. Exactly. Yeah, exactly. But everything you did.

Natalie MacLean 00:37:20 Absolutely. What was the most surprising insight you discovered while writing this second book about the Rhone?

Matt Walls 00:37:27 I suppose I already knew the wine side of things pretty well. A lot of the extra research that I had to do for this particular book.

Matt Walls 00:37:33 So I’ve written books on the Rhone in the past, but for this particular book, I really had to get to know a little bit more about some of the hotels in particularly hotels and restaurants in Lyon. So it gave me the chance to get to know Lyon a little bit better. So Lyon is very close to the northern Rhone, and there aren’t any actual vineyards around Lyon itself. But since so many people, when they do discover the Rome, when they come visit the Rhone, they’ll be coming into Lyon. They’ll be flying into Lyon. I thought people are going to want to stay there for a day or two, perhaps. So I thought, right, I’m going to really get to know this city a little bit better. And I had such a great time in Leon. There are so many good places to eat. There are so many good places to drink. Some of the hotels are incredible. So getting to know Leon for me was the most enlightening part of the research for this book.

Matt Walls 00:38:17 And now it’s a city that I just want to go back to as often as I can. I love it there.

Natalie MacLean 00:38:21 That’s great. Approximately how large a city is it? It’s got its own airport, obviously.

Matt Walls 00:38:26 Yeah, it’s got its own airport. So it’s the second or third biggest city in France, so it’s pretty big. Okay.

Natalie MacLean 00:38:32 All right. And what was the most challenging or difficult part in writing the book.

Matt Walls 00:38:37 So the book’s in two parts. So the first part of the book really discovers or talks about the grape varieties, the wines, the markets, fun things to do with the places to see outside where it’s not just about wine, you know, there are things about other kind of attractions. So that’s the first part of the book. The second part of the book talks more about individual wineries to visit restaurants, kind of cheap eats, hotels, these kind of things, and gives individual Recommendations. The hardest thing for me was whittling down from all of the hundreds of wineries, which are so nice to visit, just to bring it down to like ten.

Matt Walls 00:39:12 That was really, really difficult.

Natalie MacLean 00:39:14 How did you do it?

Matt Walls 00:39:16 I suppose what I had to do was think not just about the quality of the wine. So obviously the quality of the wine has to be brilliant, but that’s relatively easy to find. You know, to, to write a list of places with brilliant wine. But the places that I end up ended up picking also had to have a bit more of a, a unique and exciting visitor experience. So it had to do both. So that kind of whittled it down a little bit further. One of the good things about this series is that there’s a little QR code in the back, and if you scan the QR code, it can take you through to a website and then there’s twice as many recommendations. So on that website there’s 20 instead of ten. So it’s a way of us being able to add more content without making the book kind of unwieldy, you know? So it’s nice that you can still fit it in your pocket when you’re traveling.

Natalie MacLean 00:40:02 Sure. That’s smart. You know, in the introduction you write that this book will help people get the same enjoyment out of wine that I do. And by that, what I really mean is the same enjoyment out of life, which is beautiful. Can you give us a concrete example from your time in the Rhone, when wine led you to a pure moment of life, enjoyment or bliss?

Matt Walls 00:40:25 There were so many really just the ability that writing these books has given me to go there more often. And in fact, as you were saying, you know, gave me and my family the ability to actually go and live there for a little while and, and, you know, really get to know the place in much more detail. One of the things which I often think about, one of the most enjoyable parts about living in France is, is the food, and it’s the markets. So there was a market near where we used to live, and all of the food in that market during the summer, it’s on every day.

Matt Walls 00:40:54 The rule there is that if you have a stand, your fruit and vegetables had to be picked that day. It was that kind of freshness of food, and I think that’s the way that getting into wine has also helped me enjoy such brilliant food as well. You know, it’s not kind of high falutin stuff. It’s just extremely delicious fresh produce. You know, it’s been nice. It’s been able to kind of bring me to these other things in life, which is so lovely as well.

Natalie MacLean 00:41:18 Terrific. And you quote is it plenty of Pliny, Pliny and follow the papal court to Avignon? What was the most revealing archival detail or menu from the papal feasts? That might help us imagine how the wines were actually tasted and served back in the day?

Matt Walls 00:41:36 Yeah, so the papal feasts were amazing. So I remember reading one list of all of the things that they were having at one of the. So this was at in Chateauneuf. Okay, let’s go back. So in Avignon there is the palace of the popes.

Matt Walls 00:41:50 So the Avignon Papacy lasted for about 70 years, and there were seven popes which used Avignon as their seat instead of Italy. So Chateauneuf du Pape is about seven kilometres further north, and it’s like the kind of summer palace, like their party palace. They would go to their summer palace, you know, the Pope and his entourage, and they would have these amazing feasts.

Natalie MacLean 00:42:08 Did they pick up two popes en route? There were seven popes in Avignon, then Chateauneuf de nine.

Matt Walls 00:42:14 It was one after the other. Oh, I see, they just didn’t last very long.

Natalie MacLean 00:42:17 Okay. All right.

Matt Walls 00:42:20 And just seeing the stuff that they ate was is just amazing. You know, there’ll be a list of, like, 41 pigs, 75 woodcock, 73 guinea fowl, 18 rabbits. And just like all of it, it was like a this woodland massacre. It was terrible, but all of which go really well with red wine, actually. So whether they chose the area because of the food or because the wine went with the food, I don’t know.

Matt Walls 00:42:40 But yeah, they ate very well.

Natalie MacLean 00:42:42 Wow. Now, coming to a bit more recent times, you described the devastating February 1956 frost when temperatures dropped to -20°C and people heard quote the sound of screaming from the trees as the sap froze, splitting their trunks. Holy moly Panda’s picture of what the Southern Rome landscape looked like after that event. And if you can still see the effects of that devastating freeze today.

Matt Walls 00:43:09 So 1956 was a really it was a turning point in the way that people lived and worked and farmed in the southern Rhone. So before that point, it was very much a kind of poly cultural land. So in these individual estates or domains, people would have some olives, they would have some grapevines, they would have some fig trees, they would have some carrots, they would have some wheat, you know. And different people grew different things. Tomatoes, aubergines, courgettes whatever. And so it was kind of a mixed agriculture. But after 1956. So this really wiped out the olive trees.

Matt Walls 00:43:43 And so the olive olive oil is so important to the region. And it was very important for people’s livelihoods. They could just have replanted the olive trees that got worked out. But the problem is that they would take about ten years to bear fruit, and people needed something that would give them a crop immediately in order for them to survive. So something which they knew they could sell easily. Something that traveled quite well, something they kept quite well, and something that would give a crop quickly was grapevine. So people went from this kind of polyculture way of life to a very Ken, quite a mono, relatively monocultural climate and relatively monocultural landscape. So that was a big turning point in the modern history of the Rhone region.

Natalie MacLean 00:44:25 And then you talk about Baron Le Roy de Bois, a lawyer and owner of Chateau Fortier, created the first official wine appellation in France in 1936. You describe how neighboring winemakers implored him to stamp out fraudulent labeling. What motivated Baron Leroy to do so? And what can you tell us about his personality?

Matt Walls 00:44:50 He was a fascinating man, full of energy.

Matt Walls 00:44:53 So he married into Chateauneuf, actually. So he married the daughter of the owner of Chateau Fortier. So by this time, he was already a lawyer. And he was a. Yeah, just a man that was full of energy. And I think he could also see that the wines of Chateauneuf, you know, people were just stamped Chateauneuf du cap on a bottle and sell it on, even though it was made in, you know, neighboring areas, which perhaps weren’t so great. You know, he could see there was a problem. It was a problem for him as well. But being a lawyer, he was relatively well placed compared to local chateau owners. In order to do something about it. So that’s when he started. Basically, what he did was kind of drew an area around the best vineyards of Chateauneuf du Pape. He looked at what grape varieties were most classic, and he said, okay, well, you know, these are the grape varieties that we’re going to use, the area that we’re going to say, you know, that Chateauneuf du Pape can be made in.

Matt Walls 00:45:41 And those were the two kind of main kind of details, I think that needed to be organized first. But he was a man of great energy. And this was in 1936. So he worked on this for 4 or 5 years. And in 1936, that was when the first well, there was the first five wine appellations of France, in fact, were kind of established. I suppose Chateauneuf was the first. And then there was four others. I think there was Arbor in the Jura, there was Mombasa, there was Cassis in Provence, and there was Tavel as well, which is also in the Rhone, but on the other bank.

Natalie MacLean 00:46:11 Okay, cool. And so you say, it’s fair to say that the French have more practice at making wine than most since 600 BCE. How does this 2600 year old history of winemaking come through in the attitudes and practices today?

Matt Walls 00:46:28 Well, you know, a strong link to tradition, as I was saying. You know, there are certain wineries who which have been around for 14, 15, 16 generations, you know, being handed down from one generation to another when you’re there and when you talk to people, it’s almost like they don’t feel like this is a particularly big deal.

Matt Walls 00:46:42 You know, it’s just the way their families have always worked is where they’ve always lived. And they, you know, they just get on with the job, which I find kind of humbling, really. And it’s one of the most charming things about the Rome. You know, it’s the people that have this kind of down to earth view and way of working, even though, as you were saying, they have this incredibly long, deep history of making wine.

Natalie MacLean 00:47:04 And I found this interesting. I wasn’t aware of this, that only 5% of Rhone Valley AOC wines comes from the northern Rome, and the southern Rhone makes a massive 95% of the wine. Do you think that’s something most people aren’t aware of? And you also say that the southern Rhone lacks self-confidence, even though they’re the dominant producer?

Matt Walls 00:47:27 It’s funny, isn’t it? I found this really surprising when I first saw that statistic. I think it’s more like 6% now, but whatever. The Appalachians of cote roti, of hermitage, of corn ass, you know, Saint Joseph Crow’s hermitage.

Matt Walls 00:47:38 These are quite well known names in the world of wine, considering that, you know, they only make 5% of the wine of the Rhone Valley. I personally find it really surprising, I think, in the southern Rhone. Chateauneuf du Pape obviously has this great history. It’s very well documented. It’s been making wine for hundreds of years. It’s been exporting wine for 200 years, which is quite unusual. So the people of setting of two and the winemakers of Chateauneuf du Pape, I don’t think they lack self-confidence. They know what they have. They know what they can do. They know how good their wines can be. But I think sometimes their fame can slightly overshadow some of the other crus which surrounds Chateau du Parc in the southern Rhone. And some of them might actually want to ask, for example, are beginning to kind of come out of the shadow of Chateauneuf du Pape a little bit, but there are still so many other kind of smaller appellations which aren’t so well known. That certainly can create absolutely brilliant wines, but sometimes I don’t think they quite realize what they have.

Natalie MacLean 00:48:36 Well, it reminds me of that whole north. South. Whatever you want to call it. Dichotomy. Like, you even look in Italy, you’ve got the Piedmont and Tuscany, and then you’ve got Sicily and Boulia and like. There’s a bit of a north is fancy and high end and South is country rustic.

Matt Walls 00:48:54 Yeah. I wonder why this is. I mean, maybe it’s something to do with the heat. Maybe it’s something to do. I don’t know what it is, but. Yeah, as you say. And, you know, argue it’s the same. Arguably it’s the same in Spain as well, so.

Natalie MacLean 00:49:05 Yeah.

Matt Walls 00:49:05 Yeah, yeah. Mysterious.

Natalie MacLean 00:49:07 Okay, now you describe northern Rhone as closer in spirit to Burgundy than Chateauneuf. Maybe for listeners who don’t know Burgundy or who do know Burgundy but haven’t explored or Hermitage. What specific similarities do you think would surprise them?

Matt Walls 00:49:22 So for a start, one of the big differences between the northern Rhone and the southern Rhone is that the northern Rhone, they only use one red variety, one red grape variety, which is Syrah in the north.

Matt Walls 00:49:32 They have this whole smorgasbord of different grape varieties and the culture there is to blend. So that’s one of the similarities between the northern Rhone and Burgundy is that they have a single red grape variety like Pinot noir. Also, they have quite a kind of a single vineyard way of working. The estates tend to be very small in the northern Rhone compared to the southern Rhone. Part of this is because a lot of the northern Rhone are very kind of tightly sloping, very difficult vineyards to work. But I think this kind of smallholding, single vineyard, kind of single parcel way of working is certainly more Burgundian than the south, I would say more akin to Burgundy, I suppose.

Natalie MacLean 00:50:12 Okay. But the wine styles would still be very different. Pinot noir and Syrah like in terms of weight and.

Matt Walls 00:50:18 I suppose so, yeah, I mean, I don’t find them to be hugely different. And Syrah tends to be relatively medium bodied, quite fine, quite transparent. You know, often it works quite well with oak or not.

Matt Walls 00:50:32 People use whole bunch, which quite commonly in the northern Rhone, which again is is kind of quite fashionable in Burgundy as well. They’re both quite savoury food friendly styles. I suppose the wines of Hermitage Corners can be quite big and tannic, and they’re a little bit different, but certainly coat tea. So it’s in its fragrance and its lightness and its delicacy. Its not a million miles away from the wines of von Romani or Morris and any.

Natalie MacLean 00:51:02 Well, there you have it. I hope you enjoyed our chat with Matt.

Natalie MacLean 00:51:06 Here are my takeaways. Which French wine region banned flying saucers from landing in its vineyards? And why is that rule still in place? As Matt explains, within the Chateauneuf du Pape region, it’s called the kill discharge, which basically means the rulebook of how you’re allowed to make wine. There’s a statement that says winemakers may not use their vineyards to land flying saucers. This was put in place in the 1960s, when there was a big panic about flying saucers and little green men, and they thought, well, you know, we ought to have this rule in the book in case it ever comes up.

Natalie MacLean 00:51:40 Well, it’s still there today. I think it’s just easier to leave it than go through all the hassle of removing it. Number two, how did the devastating February 1956 frost completely reshape the southern Rhone into the vineyard landscape we know today? Matt says 1956 was a turning point in the way people lived, worked and farmed in the southern Rhone. Before that, it was a polyculture land, so estates would have olive trees, grapevines, fig trees, carrots, wheat, mixed agriculture. But after 56, when all the olive trees were wiped out and olive oil had been so important to the region, they had to replant something else that wouldn’t take ten years to bear fruit. So they needed a crop immediately in order for them to survive. So there you go. They planted vines, and that crop quickly became much of the landscape. And it went from polyculture to monocultural in terms of the farming. And number three, what sets the northern Rhone apart from the south in terms of grapes and winemaking style? One of the big differences between northern and southern Rhone is that the northern Rhone they can only use one grape variety, Syrah, in the south.

Natalie MacLean 00:52:58 They have a whole smorgasbord of different grape varieties and it’s the culture to blend. So there are similarities between northern Rhone and Burgundy in that they have that single red variety, saron, the Rhone Pinot noir in Burgundy. Estates tend to be very small, just as they are in Burgundy compared to the southern Rhone. And that’s also partly because the northern Rhone is very tightly sloping. Very difficult vineyards to work. If you missed episode 348, go back and take a listen. I chat about what it’s like moving your family thousands of miles to live in the wine region of Languedoc, also in the south of France with author Steve Hoffman. I’ll share a short clip with you now to whet your appetite.

Steve Hoffman 00:53:46 We settled in 2012 as a family for an extended fall semester in the Long Duck region, which I refer to as the other Southern France because it is to some extent the poor cousin of what most people think of as the southern France. And that would be primarily Provence and the Cote d’Azur. The Riviera, which was extensively touristic and a lot of money got brought into that region.

Steve Hoffman 00:54:09 Peter Mayle, Princess Grace. F Scott Fitzgerald. You know, there’s kind of that wealthy playground element. Languedoc is the portion of Mediterranean France to the west of the Rhone. So the Rhone divides the country into east of the Rhone is Provence, and the Riviera west of the Rhone is long and eventually Roussillon. We didn’t think we could afford to live for six months in Provence, so that’s how we settled in, quote unquote. The other southern France, we had the kinds of experiences that we were able to have because we weren’t in the grips of a tourist haven.

Natalie MacLean 00:54:45 You won’t want to miss next week when we continue our chat with Matt. If you liked this episode or learned even one thing from it, please email or tell a friend about the podcast this week. Especially someone you know who be interested in learning more about the wines of the Rhone Valley and planning a trip to the region. It’s easy to find the Unreserved Wine Talk podcast. Just tell them to search for that title or my name Natalie MacLean wine.

Natalie MacLean 00:55:09 On Apple Podcasts, Spotify, their favorite podcast app. Or they can listen to the show on my website at Natalie MacLean podcast. Email me if you have a SIP tip question, or if you’d like to win one of seven copies of the books I have to give away. I’d also love to hear your thoughts on this episode, or if you’ve read my book or are listening to it. Email me at Natalie at Natalie MacLean dot com. In the show notes, you’ll find a link to take a free online food and wine pairing class with me called the five Wine and Food Pairing Mistakes That Can Ruin Your Dinner and How to Fix Them Forever at Natalie MacLean. And that’s all in the show notes at Natalie MacLean. 368. Thank you for taking the time to join me here. I hope something great is in your glass this week. Perhaps a Rhone wine that’s a winter warmer.

Natalie MacLean 00:56:06 You don’t want to miss one juicy episode of this podcast, especially the secret full bodied bonus episodes that I don’t announce on social media.

Natalie MacLean 00:56:15 So subscribe for free now at Natalie MacLean for. Meet me here next week. Cheers!

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