Why Are Most Wine Pairing Rules Wrong for Global Cuisine? Cha McCoy Reveals What Really Works

Natalie MacLean 00:00:00 How can you pair wine with spicy dishes in a way that enhances their flavor? Why do most wine pairing guides ignore the traditions of global cuisines? And how can you use wine pairings to explore under the radar wine regions instead of reaching for the same rosé or sparkling wine every time? In today’s episode, you’ll hear the stories and tips that answer those questions in her chat with Chas McCoy, author of the terrific new book Wine Pairing for the People Who. By the end of our conversation, you’ll also discover what inspired char to launch The Communion, a wine dinner series in Harlem. How those shared wine experiences helped guests learn, connect, and form a community. How Cha’s new book, Wine Pairing for the people, breaks from traditional pairing rules to highlight often ignore global cuisines. Why? She pairs general sow’s chicken with Spanish rosado instead of the classic Riesling. How to think about key flavor components when pairing food and wine, how underrepresented wine regions and lesser known styles can expand pairing possibilities. The most unusual or surprising food and wine pairing featured in her book, and how spice lovers can choose wines that enhance dishes like jerk chicken.

Natalie MacLean 00:01:16 So she’s dialing it up with the spice, not trying to calm it down. My kind of woman.

Cha McCoy 00:01:29 Do you have a thirst to learn about wine? Do you love stories about wonderfully obsessive people, hauntingly beautiful places, and amusingly awkward social situations? Oh, that’s the blend here on the Unreserved Wine Talk podcast. I’m your host, Natalie MacLean, and each week I share with you unfiltered.

Natalie MacLean 00:01:52 Conversations with celebrities in the wine world, as well as confessions from my own tipsy journey as I write my third book on this subject. I’m so glad you’re here. Now pass me that bottle, please, and let’s get started. Welcome to episode 364. So what’s new in the wine world this week? Well, brands are playing with modern packaging, like wax dipped cans for mulled wine and glow in the dark Gamay labels are getting influencer boosts just ahead of Beaujolais Nouveau release. Fredericton winery has launched new wash off labels for wines and spirits that separate cleanly from bottles during recycling, while still allowing for textured, premium designs.

Natalie MacLean 00:02:40 So eco cred and Shelf Appeal no longer have to fight it out. An oddball post of the week a pickleball partnership is popping back up in feeds. Say that ten times quickly. Charles Smith Wines is the official wine sponsor of the Pro Pickleball tour. Proof that sports tie ins aren’t just for beer, and also proof that you can have a lot of pee. Words that will drive your podcast editor crazy. One Ontario winery went viral for a TikTok last week, where the winemaker uses her own sparkling rosé as bubble bath aromatherapy. I like the way she thinks. In France, champagne makers installed a neon bubble meter on their cellar doors. Customers place their glass beneath a sensor, and the device counts the bubbles per glass, while the customers also make their own guess. The winner closest to that number gets a bubbly bath bomb for home. I think I’d rather have more champagne and I would not put it in the tub. In influencer marketing, authenticity is the new thing. Who would have known? As consumers can spot performative partnerships from a mile away? Who smart consumers shampoo one week, chardonnay the next.

Natalie MacLean 00:03:56 Follow quickly by Sauvignon blanc and then smoke detectors. Yeah, authenticity is a real thing, folks. So how’s the harvest going? Ontario growers report smaller yields, but great flavor concentration after warm summer and clean fall. Riesling and Cab Franc look especially tidy with ice, wine and skin. Fermented white wine registrations are due November 15th. Winemakers actually have to declare their intention for the crop. They can’t just sort of make the wine and then decide, oh, I think this would be better as ice wine or skin fermented white wine. They have to say up front. So they kind of have to, commit all the way. I like that. BC wineries say 2025 wrapped up with balanced fruit and a morale bump after 2020 fours freeze. Expect careful varietal positioning and some Washington fruit carry over in their bottlings. Quebec’s Eastern Townships finished in October. Small houses are previewing premier tastings. Premier tastings are when you taste from the barrel, and it gives you an indication of what that wine can become, although it is far from it.

Natalie MacLean 00:05:07 It’s like before kindergarten, even, let alone finishing school. Meanwhile, Nova Scotia flagged damp weather disease pressure late in September but moved steadily into October. In Europe, France just cut its 2025 output forecast again, with champagne volumes up year on year but below norms. Languedoc in the south remains drought hit. Italy’s outlook is a patchwork. Tuscany trims volumes, while Veneto lifts overall quality skews promising for reds. Portugals Douro reports an intense, heat driven season, with careful triage in the Lagares or the barrelling cellars. And now something to make you smile. It’s been a week of the wonderfully weird in wine. A Quebec vineyard has just installed life sized scarecrow sommeliers, complete with tests and boat ties, only to discover that crows now linger on its shoulders, presumably for those selfie snaps. Over in Germany, a winemaker released a left handed only bottle of Riesling, supposedly to encourage mindfulness in pouring. I think it was just prank friends. The grape variety Zinfandel is celebrated on the third Wednesday of November each month.

Natalie MacLean 00:06:27 So yes, that’s today, November 19th, in California. A Lodi winery commemorated that day last year with a Guinness World Record grape stomp, resulting in a bathtub sized punch bowl of rosé for visitors to foot dip into with the hashtag not pedicure approved. And here’s a little trivia. Although deeply associated with California Zinfandel, his origins actually trace back to Croatia, making it one of the great immigrant vines of the New World and, I might add, no ice required, Beaujolais Nouveau day is tomorrow, Thursday, November 20th. Expect midnight parties and dubious berets as the first bottles are cracked open. French bistros are celebrating online with wine and cheese pajama parties. Another little piece of trivia in the region of Beaujolais, France, this wine, made from the grape Gamay, was traditionally delivered by a barge down the Swan River to Lyon in the 1800s, flagged as Le Beaujolais nouveau et arrivé has arrived. Friday celebrates National Sangria Day and then Monday, November 24th is Carmen Years de Carmen year once masqueraded as Merlot for a century until experts identified it as a separate group.

Natalie MacLean 00:07:47 How did they do it? Leaf specialists figured it out. If you have some wine, news or a quirky story you think I should share on the podcast. Email me Natalie Natalie MacLean. Com. I’m also sharing wine news and reviews, plus wine related mistakes that make me more relatable on Instagram. There are more of those than I had originally planned. I’m at Natalie MacLean Wine, so follow me there and I’ll follow you back because I’m loyal that way. On upcoming TV shows such as CTV or Morning City TV’s Breakfast Television, CTV’s Cp24 Breakfast show Morning Live and CTV’s The Social. We’ll be chatting about terrific wines and spirits for holiday celebrations and gift giving. And believe it or not, we are already planning driest January with low and no alcohol drinks, as well as those that are low in calories or sugar, plus romantic wines and spirits for Valentine’s Day. Oh, let me know if you’d like your brand featured on these TV segments or future ones. Or if you’d like to advertise with us through our podcast, newsletter, website, social media or mobile apps.

Natalie MacLean 00:08:52 If you represent a winery, distillery, brewery or an agency or regional council representing wines, spirits, cocktails, cheese or other food brands, please email me at Natalie at Natalie MacLean. Com. Back to today’s episode. Three of you are going to win a copy of cha McCoy’s pairings for the people. I also still have three copies of Elva Ramirez terrific books sparkling with lots of festive holiday cocktails based on bubbly two copies of Andy and Jane Masters fabulous new book, Rooted in Change The Stories Behind Sustainable Wine, and two copies of Doctor Tuffy Niedermeyer book The Wines of Brazil. Those last two books, by the way, have beautiful full color photographs, so they’d make beautiful holiday gifts that you don’t even have to pay for. So if you want one of them, please email me and let me know. You’d like to win. It doesn’t matter where you live, I’ll choose ten winners randomly. Think about your odds from those who contact me at Natalie at Natalie MacLean dot com. In other bookish news, if you’re reading the paperback or e-book or listening to the audiobook of my memoir, Wine Witch on Fire Rising from the Ashes of Divorce, defamation, and Drinking Too Much, a national bestseller in one of Amazon’s best Books of the year.

Natalie MacLean 00:10:08 I’d love to hear from you as well. Now, that doesn’t sound like a cozy holiday story, but it’s set just before Christmas, so the holiday theme runs throughout the book. And yes, spoiler alert, happy ending. I’m still here. I’m still podcasting, dammit. I’ll put a link in the show notes to all retailers worldwide at Natalie MacLean. Com forward slash 364. Okay, on with the show. John McCoy is an entrepreneur, Educator, event producer and author as a Certified Sommelier with the Court of Master Sommeliers. She developed the Communion of Wine dinner series that offers an inviting, accessible approach to gathering and enjoying wine. This experience inspired her to open her first store, The Communion Wine and Spirits. Cha was named one of Wine Enthusiast’s 40 under 40. Cha has held coveted positions such as Cherry Bomb magazine’s first beverage director, the head of beverage for the Charleston Wine and Food Festival, and a sommelier at a michelin starred restaurant in Portugal and John Fraser Restaurant in New York. Passionate about education, she spends her spare time mentoring and teaching at her alma mater, Syracuse University, where she serves as an adjunct professor, educating and inspiring new wine drinkers.

Natalie MacLean 00:11:36 And she joins us now from her home in Harlem. Cha, we’re so glad to have you here with us. Welcome.

Cha McCoy 00:11:42 Thanks for having me, Natalie.

Natalie MacLean 00:11:43 All right. So you wrote that you fell in love with wine while you were living in Italy. Can you tell us about that moment or the meal or the wine that made you realize you wanted to pursue wine professionally? More than just a hobby?

Cha McCoy 00:11:58 So I was actually doing my MBA and international finance. I had the ability to work with a local winemaker as a part of a case study that I was doing, and they were getting into more of the import export market. So that allowed me to be able to have one on one conversations with the winemaker, or at least with the winemakers team, and also be able to taste. It’s part of my immersion in Italy as well. Part of the experience of just living there. You know, every day we’re having everything from wine at, if you spent any time in Italy, you’ll know that there are these local wine producers who bring their wines to almost like a food market and then just open like a tap, and you can fill up like a water gallon and bring that wine home.

Cha McCoy 00:12:46 And that’s what the local wines, you know, at the bare minimum price you can get and drink it with friends. Enjoying and gathering is how it started. And then eventually when you are a grad student, you don’t have much money to do the fine dining experiences, but you begin to. In my case, it actually opened up the curiosity of wanting me to taste more and want to get to know. Kind of like the difference between each, like, why is this one costs more? Or how come I didn’t enjoy that one? But I really did like this one. So I wanted to know the names. I wanted to feel more confident and, you know, educated about what I was drinking for our next dining experience. And so that’s kind of how the hobby or the love for it, you know, kind of grew. And then on my return back home to the US and after graduating, I was passionate about wine and felt like that was something that I learned that was part of the lifestyle of living in Italy, that you didn’t really replicate in New York, maybe in California, etc., of the States.

Cha McCoy 00:13:45 And that was something I wanted to bring with me, something that I wanted to have a part of my life. I call it like the souvenir that I bring back was that education about wine, that passion for it. And I realized I wanted to be connected to it maybe a little bit more than just, you know, buying a bottle or two at home and, you know, doing a study. And I didn’t even know about the court of the Master Sommeliers or any of the institutions at that time. I was literally learning from producers and being invited to vineyards and had more of a everyday approach to learn about wine. And I got a job and I was really just to keep my, if you want to say, connection back to Europe at a local wine store in Harlem called The Winery, and it was the perfect location because it was a few blocks just east of Columbia University. It was located on 1/16 Street, which is considered Little Senegal. And then I lived just a few blocks north of it.

Cha McCoy 00:14:40 So this is my neighborhood. Everyone is a melting pot of different cultures and classes and people, and that made it even more of an interesting dynamic of who the customers were for me to be able to serve on a daily basis. So that’s where my official first line job was at in 2012.

Natalie MacLean 00:14:58 That’s a great introduction to wine from Italy to where you live now. I love the quote that you give from Shirley Chisholm. She said, if they don’t give you a seat at the table, bring a folding chair. And then you added that you brought two folding tables and started your own wine dinner series called The Communion. So tell us about that very first dinner in Harlem back in 2017.

Cha McCoy 00:15:22 Yeah, right after completing a trip to visit family that lives in Paris, I met someone who was a sommelier who was a friend of hers. She’s like, oh, you seem so excited about wine. This is years later. I’ve already lived in New York and work at the store, and she was like, you seem so excited.

Cha McCoy 00:15:39 You should probably do something like a pop up or, you know, and host people on your own. And we were in her living room having a very similar experience, but it was more of a tasting. They did share some kind of like small bites, but her husband was a chef, so that was easy for her. That’s okay with this. She wanted to educate people on wine, and I felt like that was a concept that I can bring back or create in my own way. From the my travels. At this point, I have already traveled to a few countries, already lived in Italy, and I wanted to give that same experience to my neighbors, you know? And so I returned back to to New York. And this was 2017 ish with this idea, or maybe in 2016, but started in 2017, where I finally was like, okay, well, let me just bring two folding tables. It was one folding table at first and eventually a second one to kind of make a more communal long table effect and start inviting friends, family, childhood friends.

Cha McCoy 00:16:39 Because I was back where I grew up at in Harlem. It was just like word of mouth. And then there wasn’t about the dinners. At first, it was more about education. So just changing the themes from rosé week to next week, it’d be sparkling wine and doing cheese, etc. from the different purveyors, and I thought that was fun. I realized that folks who had never been sort of like seated wine tasting before, they would stay because they enjoyed themselves so much in my living room. They got hungry. And so I said, okay, if I’m gonna keep this going, I realized I gotta start bringing in some chefs with some food, a part of this experience in order to keep people coming back. It was something different than what they would normally do on the weekend. So I incorporated the actual pairing of food and not just the wine and cheese or whatever else, you know, desserts, etc. I was bringing in And then actually they kind of took off from there, and we got too big for my living room, and I eventually started hosting them as takeovers in different restaurants.

Natalie MacLean 00:17:38 Oh, wow. And can you remember anything memorable? One of your guests said about these communal dinners?

Cha McCoy 00:17:46 Yeah. I mean, I guess just the experience of having people who some of them I knew very well, I didn’t know them. Well, let’s just say some were actually friends and family beginning. But like the fifth one, there started being folks that were like friends of friends. So I’d never met them before. So now I’m having actual strangers in my living room. And I think that just overall, the sentiment that this was the most they’ve ever learned about wine gave me the motivation to kind of continue to keep it going. Like, you could tell that even in a place like Manhattan, you can sign up for wine classes, and there’s still a large group of people that were not spoken to, is what I noticed. And that’s what inspired me to kind of, how do I make this a thing? Like, how do I keep this going? The wines. Never heard of that.

Cha McCoy 00:18:34 They were now fall in love with. They could tell what they palette was growing as we as they would attend maybe an event in April and come to another event in June. You know, and so that was the passion where I started seeing multiple people come back, or even sometimes a friend of mine will send his wife next time with one of her friends. So that’s it gave me inspiration. So no exact quotes that I can share from that time, but just the sentiment that people were willing, it was more than just like, oh, we’re coming to support Cha. It was more like, oh, I actually took something from this community and experience, and some of them even made friends amongst themselves that this gathering gave, like it had a much larger purpose than just kind of me teaching them about wine, because now they also kind of develop a community amongst themselves too.

Natalie MacLean 00:19:19 That’s great. And did you have any sort of warm up exercises? You know, at the beginning, especially people perhaps, who weren’t familiar or Intimidated with wine.

Natalie MacLean 00:19:27 Is there something that got everybody kind of into the game of tasting and pairing?

Cha McCoy 00:19:32 Actually, the warm up exercise was always just to like, you know, hug your neighbor, talk to your neighbor. Yeah, I think there was something about we are literally in a neighborhood. You’re in my apartment like, you know, you’re in my living room, so get to know your neighbor moments. So I always started out with having some type of aperitif or just like bubbles so that folks can start out just kind of socializing amongst themselves. That was to get the energy or the vibe going more than getting their palate going, was more important to me that they would leave there and feeling connected, or from one on, one memorable moment or fix somebody connected that they actually they had a similar relative like a cousin in common after, you know, coming. Another person helped someone get a job by connecting. Yeah. So I feel like that was way more important to me than trying to, you know, focus so much about the context or how I teach at the university level, etc. about sitting in a classroom.

Cha McCoy 00:20:28 And this is a serious. They already feel like one is intimidating and serious. So this was like a moment for you to be more relaxed, chilled, and still feel like you left here and learned something that’s always was more important to me than me actually feeling like we need to dive right in with the content or the, you know, the deep knowledge.

Natalie MacLean 00:20:49 Absolutely. Well, that really underscores my own approach to child like wine is a connector, but it doesn’t have to be so serious or always focused exclusively on the wine. So it’s lovely that it led to other connections among your students who then went out. And of course, what better sort of casual, more comfortable environment than your own living room to start with? Wine. So that’s great. You then open the communion Wine and Spirits in Syracuse a wine shop, wine and spirit shop making you one of the few black women wine shop owners in America. What were your biggest challenges in that first year. And was there anything that surprised you?

Cha McCoy 00:21:26 Yes.

Cha McCoy 00:21:27 I feel like as the legacy of the chameleon lived on, turn it into a brick and mortar was very important to me. Now, I don’t know in what way. I did move to Portugal to be able to open up a wine bar, and that was going to be the chameleons actually, like first location, almost like a tasting room wine bar to continue that same feeling. I wanted to feel like it was my living room in Lisbon. Legally, you were able to sell bottles of wine as well as poor in New York State. You do not have that ability, unfortunately. So when the pandemic happened and I basically had to pivot because that was the word for the pandemic, right? Everybody’s pivoting. I returned back home to the US and and ended up finding my way back upstate, which is where that is my alma mater, where I went to do my university studies for my engineering degree. I ended up being connected with someone who told me about the open position of teaching. I recognized that there was a different clientele that was upstate, and there was something important that they’re not getting, that they’re almost like missing a wine culture that we did have down in New York City or downstate, as they would say.

Cha McCoy 00:22:39 And that was really important about the shop was like, how do I actually get folks to understand the wines that I’m trying to bring? That was the stronger messaging. I think that being a woman of color, I’m sure had a lot of challenges, but I think it was more challenging to get customers who did not know this styles of wines, whether it’s low intervention wines, was predominantly most of my shop when they’re used to kind of like the large warehouse wine shopping where some of the big brands quality wasn’t the most important part. Only like branding, like the name, it’s a brand they know is more important. And so that was probably the the hardest part about Being in an area who is not familiar with this type of wine culture. Now, there’s a lot of obviously transplants there who work at the university from different cities, who’ve traveled or live other places, but that was probably the strongest. like that was the largest. I would say adversity. I would challenge that. I would have is, once it opened, it’s kind of like, how can we get people to recognize that we are not like them? Of the other stores and the ones who got it, they get it, you know, they come, they look for the orange wine, or they look for pet gnats, etc., things that they knew they could not find any other store, but it was more or less we have to continue to preach.

Cha McCoy 00:23:58 We’re preaching to the choir, you know, selling wine to those people where I needed to acquire new customers. So I think that was the biggest struggle.

Natalie MacLean 00:24:05 Well, all of that was great background. Everything that we talked about, you’re bringing to this new book, Wine Pairings for the people. So tell us in a nutshell what this book is about and how it’s different from other pairing books that are on the market.

Cha McCoy 00:24:19 Yes, from my research of different parent books that I refer to. Coming up as a young budding sommelier or novice at the wine shops that I worked at. It was something missing beyond the normal or hamburger. Goes well with this. So American Focus dining would be. Of course you will see barbecue and there will be some American classics in there, steak, etc. when it comes to wine pairings for food from different cultures, it would mostly focus heavily on Western world or European food culture. And that was something I was like, okay, there’s definitely more food than that’s out there.

Cha McCoy 00:25:09 And these would be really thick books that really talked in depth about the pairings, but I also feel like lacked context. So maybe their goal was more about the art of actually pairing versus being able to understand at length how much different categories in wine and styles of wine, in categories of food that’s out there in cuisines. So that was something I wanted to really challenge, is my own upbringing in wine, where I would see in educational platforms we would pigeonhole anything that wasn’t basically European. Food goes into one bucket as ethnic, and I use that lightly because I don’t use this terminology. And they say ethnic pairings is I mean, that’s a lot of people to say ethnic. All these people just, you know, this is the wine getting Riesling, you know, and there’s a lot of different styles of food that’s not spicy. That can still be in those ethnicities, nationalities, cultures that you are referring to. So to say to prepare all the food from China. You know, with, you know, Riesling is.

Cha McCoy 00:26:21 It also didn’t make sense either. So, like, we didn’t we didn’t do enough to be able to we meaning the larger wine education system wasn’t truly showing that there is a lot of diversity. Is, Chinese food or Asian food is not a monolith. So why are we saying this one wine is the one answer to, like, all of the food? So these were the wise, I would say, that came to mind when I was thinking about writing a book. And trust me, my agent, this is not the book she asked me to write. You know, that’s an exclusive for you to know. No one’s asked me that. But I can tell you I was very passionate about the idea. And then when she took the sample out to the market, people resonated very much with this book. And so that’s when she I guess that brought her on board, like, oh, okay, let’s it sounds like everyone’s very excited about this now. So I also confirmed Armed that I was on to something, I guess as well, and that maybe this is something to pay attention to.

Cha McCoy 00:27:17 And that’s now three years ago, to be honest, is when I got the actual deal. So there’s something to say that from the moment that she and I connected, which is before I moved to Portugal, this is his years ago. So this is before a lot of the trends, because I was already doing this with wine pairings for my communion dinner. That’s where the seeds were planted for me to be able to do such project like this. And that wasn’t very common for me to do, you know, like to hear that someone’s the sommelier at a Senegalese restaurant or working on those type of projects, which is what I was doing for my pop up dinners. So I guess there is something to say about it all. It was like, there’s a thread that kind of brings it to the moment of the actual book. And yeah, I was just happy to be able to have right timing by the time the book was ready. But time up, by the time I got the agent, oh, everything had to fall in line for me to be able to present a book at the time that people would be receptive to, like.

Cha McCoy 00:28:11 Oh, yeah. Actually, why are we not talking about wines and foods from these cultures?

Natalie MacLean 00:28:16 So absolutely. I’m just curious, what book did your agent want you to write?

Cha McCoy 00:28:21 She wanted me to write about my life. Like being in wine, as I guess. Like your question.

Natalie MacLean 00:28:26 Like a memoir?

Cha McCoy 00:28:27 Yeah, I guess like how your question was like being a black woman who’s opening a wine store. This is unique. So let’s write a story about just how has it been with you living and working in the wine industry. And that obviously has had multiple challenges for me. But it was something that I was like, I’m not ready to tell that story, but I do have something that I’m always ready to educate. Let’s educate the people on wine. I think that always I tell my students, people always are going to question your validity. You know, this is an industry that the pens kind of represent certain things to certain people.

Natalie MacLean 00:29:03 So the lapel pins like for master caught some. Exactly.

Natalie MacLean 00:29:07 Yeah.

Cha McCoy 00:29:07 Yeah. Right. The WCT pins, all those. So that’s going to give you a certain level. That’s what I realize at the time. That’s what it did for me. It allowed me to be in a room that I probably would not have originally been invited to without that, where other people may have the network to kind of like get them in a room before taking those exams. And so for me, I recognize there’s another way, just like you mentioned about the Shirley Chisholm quote.

Natalie MacLean 00:29:31 Yeah. No. It’s great. Well, you have some really innovative pairings in your book. You paired General Chiles chicken with Spanish Rosato, not Riesling. What was your thinking on pairing those two dishes? Because the the chicken tends to be a very hot dish, right? Spicy. Hot. I mean.

Cha McCoy 00:29:49 No Souls is very American. So that’s the reason why I also chose this dish. It was because it’s a dish that kind of it’s one of those dishes that if you are familiar with the stickiness of it all that has this kind of, sauce around it that it can have is cooked with chili flavors, but it is definitely more a sweet sour flavor than anything.

Cha McCoy 00:30:14 And so you have the Spanish risotto I thought was a perfect parent because it was very lush, like the dark fruit flavors that you get from a Spanish risotto or even, yeah, Italian risotto or Spanish risotto. So that’s why I was like, okay, this is going to be a great pairing to balance the acidity in the fruit pairing of it is not going to overwhelm it. I think a lot of people think dark rosés. That’s why I wanted to be very specific. You know, I’m one of those people that’s I don’t know if you enjoy dark rosés versus a light rosés. I feel like people think that’s the only option. And that means quality. The lighter the rosé is. And I think that there’s a place for every wine, and that’s the theme throughout the book. So I was trying to play over something that is a little bit more fuller and body and fuller in style, but still have enough freshness to be able to play off of the dynamic of such dish as general cells.

Natalie MacLean 00:31:09 Oh that’s great.

Natalie MacLean 00:31:09 My favorite rosé is Tavel from the Rhone Valley. So do you think that would work?

Cha McCoy 00:31:14 Yeah, I think that the alcohol would be, you know, 2000 and have a little bit more.

Natalie MacLean 00:31:19 So 14% usually.

Cha McCoy 00:31:22 So I think that maybe it will work. I think that just you may feel the devil a little bit more than this. You know. What’s the dish.

Natalie MacLean 00:31:31 That’s what I’m going for. Now you also pair Korean fried chicken with creme de Lima rosé, not beer. Maybe explain why you thought those two would work together.

Cha McCoy 00:31:41 Yeah. So just to take even a step back into, like, my wine selections, right? I think that the choices that I want in going back to you asked about what was in other books that I didn’t that I wanted to make sure happen, I didn’t want to keep saying the same sparkling wines 500 times. I think if sparkling wine or rosé in this case, if it works well as a good pairing for this dish. I mean, I, I can say vel.

Cha McCoy 00:32:04 To vel. To vel. But I think that is something to say about exploring also not just the cultures that we’re pairing with, but different wines from different regions and underrepresented regions. So twofold I’m educating people about, do you have to get this is not the rules, you know, this is not written in stone. Cha said, with this dish, this is the wine. Again, it’s more about have you ever thought about having a Spanish risotto? You know, I could have said a rosé from, like I said, Italy or somewhere else that is darker. There’s a bunch of Californian rosés, for example, or sparkling wines that would go well with the, as they call it, KFC as well, the Korean fried chicken. But I think there’s something to say about Let’s Explore maybe an underrepresented region that does sparkling wine and sparkling rosé really well, to give you an alternative. And so me and my co-author Leila, I made it very clear to her, we’re going to go through every pairing at least 2 to 3 times, because I want to make sure we’re not repeating any region or grape without some level of specificity, so people can be able to explore that.

Cha McCoy 00:33:11 There’s many ways you can have rosé or Chardonnay or sparkling wine that will give you a different effect. So technically, the road connection to back to your your question about this dish, it was, you know, I was looking at the balance of fat and acid right now bubbling. I definitely want sparkling wine. There is a unique flavor to the seasoning in the KFC fried chicken that I felt like would go amazing with the rosé style, so to play up to the fruitiness and they also use a lot of more like dipping sauces. So I feel like that’s what I was playing up to when I said go with rosé instead of having like, you know, a blank noir or a straight white sparkling wine from the region. So that was my thought process there.

Natalie MacLean 00:33:53 That’s a great idea, though. I like how you’re integrating, as you say, underrepresented regions, but also just different like and not doing the same recommendation, even though the same old, same old will work. Why not explore? The beauty of wine is in its diverse taste.

Natalie MacLean 00:34:08 So.

Cha McCoy 00:34:08 Exactly. I mean, I’m sure you can enjoy that with rosé from, you know, Prosecco. You know, I’m sure we’ll be just great. So that’s why it’s really more about me being able to give a kind of like a shout out to a different region that maybe people are not usually thinking about. in this case. So that was that was the method to the madness of all the different wines. Trust me, you don’t want to see the wine and food pairing matrix we have. It’s kind of crazy.

Natalie MacLean 00:34:34 What does it look like? Do you have hundreds of cells? I mean, you were an engineer or, an engineer. So I’m sure you were very analytical.

Cha McCoy 00:34:42 Yes. The amount of Excel sheets that it took that once I realized I was like, I think we said Chardonnay too much. Let’s go back. So I need to, like, you know, do a kind of quick, like, fine of how many times it was hit with Chardonnay. And it was very I got real technical when it came to the pairings because of that.

Cha McCoy 00:34:59 But it also challenged me as a sample. Yeah. Like, okay, well, let’s sit back and think about which ones, even though I may not have them often. Gratefully, at the store, I can ask for some samples of some wines and be able to actually taste like, oh, actually, I haven’t had that in a while. Let’s let’s try wines from this region and really see if that would work and then make sure that it’s included in the book. So that’s I’m very much connected to the winemakers that I’ve worked with and been around. So I feel like this was a nice way for me to pay homage to the different regions, smaller regions, and even smaller varietals that you don’t hear. Or it’s just a rare varietal that you don’t hear as often or see every day on a wine list.

Natalie MacLean 00:35:37 So what’s the most unusual pairing? It won’t be perhaps unusual to you, but for readers who are used to North American food and wine and the usual, what do you think would be a surprising pairing for readers?

Cha McCoy 00:35:50 Oh man, I think this question is difficult because I feel like every dish may be like a shock, but the ones that I personally love.

Cha McCoy 00:35:58 If I can answer that way. Maybe not a shocker for most folks in the wine industry. Playing off of your KFC pairing just now is the Melba fried chicken and waffles and the blank champagne. You know, I really love. She has a strawberry butter recipe that we include in the book, so you can go with the rosé style as well. But if the if that wasn’t included, I really I love that dish with. Yeah, a blanc. The blanc. I think the brioche notes from a vintage champagne, which, you know, 100% Chardonnay grapes being used. And I didn’t think that that was such an odd pairing, because it’s very common for the folks, I’m sure, for you to know that fried chicken and champagne goes well together. But when I say it to people who are not in the industry, they usually are very surprised when they hear that it’s one of my favorite pairings because they’re like, I’m spending all this money on, you know, champagne. They have it with fried chicken.

Cha McCoy 00:36:51 So I guess this high, low idea.

Natalie MacLean 00:36:53 Yeah. The shabby chic.

Cha McCoy 00:36:54 Yeah, yeah, yeah. They don’t they don’t really they it’s a hard time of them getting it at first. Like I’m not spending all this money on champagne just to have it with fried chicken. Give me something fancy. I guess it’s what they want. And I’m, like, telling me. I’m like, I’m telling you the truth. It’s a hit. You’re gonna love this so well.

Natalie MacLean 00:37:08 And I think sometimes the the fancier the wine, the simpler the food should be. So the wine can shine. If you love wine, you’ve got a beautiful blonde on blonde. But what about the waffles? Would they not be very sweet and clash with the champagne? That’s usually pretty dry.

Cha McCoy 00:37:22 Yeah. No, I thought it was a great pairing, I have it, I personally enjoy it all the time. I think that maybe her recipe. Let’s just say that the good part about shooting the photos for the book is that you’re actually able to taste that you you get to taste it as well.

Cha McCoy 00:37:36 You know, hopefully when people do wine books, they probably not tasting too much food. But in my case, I had a great experience with that. And yeah, it worked out perfectly. I think that, yeah, I think there was the bread, the bread notes that you would get from the champagne. The clash really can only be if you are. And this is also Natalie, I think a great question here is because it is kind of your own adventure. You know, when people talk about spiciness and using Riesling, for example, to be able to calm the spice, but my palate, for example, like spice. So why would I use a wine to calm the spice when I actually love the intensity of the spice? So do you feel like that’s something that to each his own? You know, I think there is still a great pairing for me. I again, I wrote a whole book on the fact that there’s all these wines out here. You should explore them. But I also want to give people the luxury of saying, you know, hey, I actually really did enjoy that with this dish.

Cha McCoy 00:38:36 And so I just maybe introduce them to something else. Not that this is the rule. Like this is the only thing you know. You only can eat fried chicken and champagne together. And that’s why I said upset about the rosé. Like the rosé, I feel like is the real that chef’s kiss. That’s good.

Natalie MacLean 00:38:53 Yeah, it’s a great pairing. So if you do like spice and you want to bring it on, you don’t want to tamp down the spice. What is one wine that you might recommend with Hot Spice?

Cha McCoy 00:39:02 I think that in the I’m now I’m trying to remember the the jerk chicken dish like something that is like truly spicy that I normally go for wines that are bolder, that can meet the jerk flavor. So peppers Scotch bonnet is the pepper that they use to intensify the spice and jerk. And so I actually look for wines that can actually match it in spice. So I’m looking for pepper in my wine and I can be a Bordeaux. That is right. Bank Merlot. Focus.

Cha McCoy 00:39:35 I can see it. A really nice Cab Franc gone with it as well. So I’m playing up to the flavors of the spicy dish, not just because the heat is was there. I feel like that’s unfortunate. I understand some people may need that in order to actually enjoy it. But, you know, for other folks who can take a little bit of spice, I feel like finding the elements that’s within the seasoning that you can find and do more of a comparing instead of contrasting, which is what we’re normally taught, is like, if it’s spicy, gets something that’s going to calm the spice down and be a contrast flavor. If you can handle the spice, find something that’s going to match it where it’s at and still be enjoyed. And of course, you can find some really young Bordeaux’s today in the market that are ready to drink that actually do have a lot more fruit forward characteristics of that blueberry notes bramble flavor. That will be a great pairing with a dish that’s so rich and deep too.

Natalie MacLean 00:40:32 I’m thinking I’m wondering if black Pepper Shiraz that’s an actual brand name from Australia would work because I’m thinking the the black pepper.

Cha McCoy 00:40:39 I think that’s next level spice. So then to be honest, that so that’s black pepper spice. I’m looking at green bell pepper and the fact that the Scotch bonnet. So if you want to take it spicier than that. I feel like going to the Surat, going with a very peppery dish. I feel like for my level that would be probably a little bit too much pepper for me. But the folks who really and I am not Caribbean. So I can tell you right now, folks who don’t mind, you know, taking up that what you’re saying is probably a spot on pairing for folks who want to go a little bit, take the Merlot to the next level. Going with Shiraz idea with something that’s a little bit more peppery.

Natalie MacLean 00:41:15 I’d probably have to whimper back to my Tavel rosé after trying that combination. It’s probably not for me either. Well, there you have it.

Natalie MacLean 00:41:28 I hope you enjoyed our chat with Elva. Here are my takeaways. Number one, how can you pair wine with spicy dishes in a way that enhances their spicy flavor profile? As char explains something that’s truly spicy, she will go for wines that are even bolder, that can meet, say, the spices and heat of jerk in jerk chicken. Not talking about a person, of course. She looks for wines that have a bit of pepper in them. That could be a Bordeaux that is ripe bank and Merlot focused, or a nice cob. Frank. She’s playing up the flavors of the spicy dish, not just because the heat is there, so you can find great pairings that are based on complementing rather than contrasting, which is what we’re normally taught. If it’s a spicy dish, you’ve got a comment down with a wine that’s going to put out the heat. But if you can handle the spice, you can take the heat. You want something that’s going to match it where it’s at and still be enjoyed.

Natalie MacLean 00:42:27 Number two, why do most wine pairing guides ignore the traditions of global cuisines? As cha says, based on her research of different pairing books and coming up as a young sommelier at wine shops, it was something always missing that she found. And it would be more like hamburgers go well with this. But when it comes to wine pairings from food from different cultures, the heavy focus would always be on the Western or European food cultures. So it’s something she really wanted to challenge. She also pointed out that we tend to pigeonhole anything that isn’t European into one basic bucket called ethnic. She doesn’t use that term, it’s just too broad. And often the recommendation is ethnic dish Riesling or sparkling wine. But how can one wine be the answer to so many different food flavors? So that’s what she was thinking of when writing this book. And number three, how can you use wine pairings to explore under the radar wine regions instead of reaching for the same rosé or sparkling wine or Riesling every time with her wine selections in this book, she didn’t want to keep saying the same sparkling wine 500 times.

Natalie MacLean 00:43:40 And I don’t blame her. There is something to be said for exploring not just different cultures when it comes to food, but different wines from different regions. So how about trying a Spanish rosado instead of just your typical rosé from, say, California with that Korean fried chicken? Or maybe let’s look at some sparkling wines from lesser known regions, like a Cremo, say, from Burgundy or Alsace or the Loire. She wanted to make sure she wasn’t repeating the same region or grape without some specificity, so that people could explore more wines in different ways. If you missed episode 51, go back and take a listen. I chat about wine for Normal People, which does include pairings with Elizabeth Schneider. I’ll share a short clip with you now to whet your appetite.

Elizabeth Schneider 00:44:37 People like to write wine memoirs, and they like to write wine stories and things like that. But there isn’t a whole lot. And I guess the other thing is that I have a point of view. A lot of the things in the book are opinionated.

Elizabeth Schneider 00:44:48 I am not apologetic about it. I make it very clear that it’s my opinion, but I say ridiculous things. I think my favorite thing that I came up with in the book is, why don’t the grapes that you eat from the grocery store taste anything like wine? And I say that it’s the same reason that you have a dog for a pet, but not a wolf. They’re the same genus, but the difference between them is too much. You want the dog. You do not want the wolf. I try to use a lot of analogies like that to say wine is a difficult subject and it’s a high barrier to entry. Anybody that tells you that wine is easy is ridiculous. It’s not. And you have to know something to get in. It’s just where you get your knowledge and how understanding or like normal or nice or kind to someone is going to be towards you when you don’t know something.

Natalie MacLean 00:45:41 You won’t want to miss next week when we continue our chat with Cha. That should be a show chat with cha.

Natalie MacLean 00:45:48 If you liked this episode or learned even one thing from it, please email or tell a friend about the podcast this week, especially someone you know who would be interested in learning more about wine pairings from global cuisines. It’s easy to find the unreserved wine talk. Just tell them to search for that title or my name Natalie MacLean Wine on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, their favorite podcast app. Or they can listen to the show on my website at Natalie MacLean and cast. Email me if you have a question, or if you’d like to win one of ten copies of the books I have to give away. I’d also love to hear your thoughts on this episode, or if you’ve read my book or listening to it. Email me at Natalie at Natalie MacLean dot com. In the show notes, you’ll find a link to take a free online food and wine pairing class with me. Call the five food and wine pairing mistakes that can ruin your dinner and how to fix them forever are at Natalie MacLean class, and that is all in the show notes at Natalie MacLean 064.

Natalie MacLean 00:46:51 Thank you for taking the time to join me here. I hope something great is in your glass this week. Perhaps a wine that pairs perfectly with your favorite spicy dish? You don’t want to miss one juicy episode of this podcast, especially the secret full bodied bonus episodes that I don’t announce on social media. So subscribe for free now at Natalie MacLean. Com forward slash meet me here next week. Cheers!