How Can Carbon Offsetting Claims in the Wine Industry Be a Form of Greenwashing?

Natalie MacLean 00:00:00 How can carbon offsetting claims in the wine industry be a form of greenwashing? And what is greenwashing? How does the natural fermentation process in winemaking create one of the most concentrated sources of CO2 emissions in any industry? And can you selection and fermentation techniques make winemaking more sustainable? In today’s episode, you’ll hear the stories and tips that answer those questions in part two of our chat with Andy Neither and Jane Masters. You don’t need to have listened to part one first, but if you missed it, go back and have a listen after you finish this one. By the end of our conversation, you’ll also discover how the familiar Torres Winery in Spain is treating CO2 as a resource instead of waste. Why fermentation emissions aren’t counted in carbon audits despite being a concentrated source of CO2, how yeast choices and co inoculation are helping winemakers reduce energy synergy use by some wineries are implementing modern updates of old low tech winemaking techniques. What the Nordic wine monopoly system Golaghat can teach the rest of the world about sustainable practices, which certifications and labels wine lovers can actually trust when choosing bottles.

Natalie MacLean 00:01:20 How social sustainability, from fair wages to housing is shaping the future of responsible winemaking. What global cases of labor inequity reveal about the deeper problems in modern agricultural production, and how climate change and sustainability issues affect people’s lives beyond the vineyards?

Natalie MacLean 00:01:47 Do you have a thirst to learn about wine? Do you love stories about wonderfully obsessive people, hauntingly beautiful places, and amusingly awkward social situations. Well, that’s the blend here on the Unreserved Wine Talk podcast. I’m your host, Natalie MacLean. And each week I share with you unfiltered conversations with celebrities in the wine world, as well as confessions from my own tipsy journey as I write my third book on this subject. I’m so glad you’re here. Now pass me that bottle, please, and let’s get started.

Natalie MacLean 00:02:29 Welcome to episode 361. So what’s new in the wine world this week? Well, according to Nielsen data, Chardonnays, grip has loosened as Chenin blanc unexpectedly trends upwards thanks to cooler vintage conditions and bright white buzz. Meanwhile, TikTokers have immortalized hashtag shower charade, a prank trend featuring chilled Chardonnay selfies.

Natalie MacLean 00:02:53 Oh, those youngins, they do know how to have fun. Meanwhile, in Spain, a winemaker has turned leftover must into natural tie dye scarves that smell faintly of Tempranillo and are now trending as hashtag vino chic on Instagram. Globally low and no alcohol ranges are still expanding. Though October’s early chill has people cozying up to red blends and fuller styles again. How is the harvest going? You ask? BC’s 2025 crop is nearly double. Last year’s frost hit yield with exceptional fruit quality and near full recovery reported in the Okanagan. Ontario grapes are also in fine form, ripening slowly in the cool, dry weather that experts at Brock University say should stretch, harvest into November and deliver balanced acidity. Quebec’s late season whites are clean and concentrated, while Nova Scotia sparkling producers are seeing strong Chardonnay and Le Blanc yields in California. Pickers are wrapping up a later than usual harvest, slowed by summer cool spells and stray October rains, growers remain cautious with thin skinned whites. Italy reports a textbook year with healthy, balanced yields from Veneto to Sicily.

Natalie MacLean 00:04:07 Frances Laura’s cheering, the Chenin blanc comeback and Argentina’s high altitude vineyards are producing unusually perfumed Malbec, a satisfying seasonal round proof that patience on the vine still pays off. And now something to make you smile a simile a un. Lyon, France made headlines this week for blind tasting and identifying 12 wines correctly blindfolded and wearing a clown nose. Proving wine judgment doesn’t always require solemnity. And in Australia, a daring duo from the Margaret River set a Guinness Book World record for the world’s smallest pop up cellar door or wine tasting room. Inside a phone booth where they poured exactly two glasses of their Cabernet before being politely unplugged by the local city council. Gotta love it if you have some wine, news or a quirky story you think I should share on the podcast. Email me at Natalie at Natalie MacLean. Com. I’m also sharing wine news and reviews on Instagram where I’m at Natalie MacLean wine. So follow me there and I’ll follow you back. Recently, I was on city TV’s breakfast television show to chat about Come Over October, a new global movement founded by author Karen McNeil, who wrote The Wine Bible.

Natalie MacLean 00:05:29 And it. And this movement invites us to create unforgettable moments with the people who matter most in our lives over a glass of wine or two. I think Come over October is proof that the best things in life aren’t downloaded. They’re uncorked. And this movement celebrates wine’s 8000 year history of bringing people together. Our ancestors didn’t need notifications to connect. Just good company and a good bottle. So let’s start with the Henry of Pelham painted Wagon Pinot Noir reserve from Niagara. This wine has a wonderful backstory. When the speck family was preparing to replant their vineyards in 1982, they discovered a broken wooden frame in Henry’s old barn. Since the property was once an inn on a stagecoach road, they restored it as a tribute to the vineyard’s history. That painted wagon has sat in front of their tasting room for more than 40 years, and it’s now the inspiration for this elegant Pinot noir. The wine opens with gorgeous aromas of raspberry and spice, then delivers flavors of cherry and a whisper of wood smoke. It’s fruit forward yet complex, aged for about a year in wood.

Natalie MacLean 00:06:42 To achieve that perfect balance, I’d pair this with slow roasted duck breast, glazed with a cherry reduction, where the caramelized skin crackles against your teeth and the tender pink meat mirrors the wine’s fruit. Notes. Another pairing would be wild mushroom risotto, stirred to creamy perfection, with each grain releasing its starchy embrace, while the earthy porcini echoes the tobacco hints, or even a herb crusted rack of lamb with its golden brown crust giving way to succulent, medium rare meat that makes the wine’s subtle oak aging sing. Now here’s the fun part. And you thought that was fun already? I challenged the hosts to a game and you can play along. After I describe each wine as I just did for this Pinot Noir, you’ll guess which one of five types of people would absolutely love to be invited over to drink it with you. So who do you think would love to taste this Pinot? The spontaneous socialite, the travel trendsetter, the history hobbyist, the literary lover or the talented teacher? Excellent guess. There we go.

Natalie MacLean 00:07:56 Got a standing ovation there. It’s going on a little bit. You’re absolutely right about history buffs. They’ll be fascinated by the tale of restored wagons and stagecoach roads while appreciating this wine’s complexity, depth, and backstory. All right. For our next wine, the Animas Douro red from Portugal. We’re heading to the spectacular Dora Valley, one of the world’s oldest wine regions, where terraced vineyards climb steep hillsides all along the river. It’s produced by Vincente Faria Vineyards, a winery committed to farming organically and reducing its environmental impact. They’re saving the planet one delicious bottle at a time. We’re helping by drinking them. Teamwork. It’s a bold blend of native grapes like Tarrega, Nacional and Tarrega. Raw is that delivers intense aromas of blackberry, plum and violet, followed by rich, dark fruit flavors with notes of chocolate, leather and a touch of Mediterranean herbs. The finish is long and warming, with velvety tannins that coat your palate. This is a wine with serious personality and main character energy. Now animus means spirit or soul in Latin, and this wine captures the passionate character of Portuguese wine making.

Natalie MacLean 00:09:09 And here I thought my high school Latin class would never be useful in vino veritas. Thank you, Mrs. Henderson. I’d pair this wine with Portuguese style grilled sardines, where the charred skins peel away to reveal moist, oily flesh that stands up to the wine’s power, or even slow braised short ribs falling off the bone in a rich red wine sauce that mingles with the meat’s marbled fat. Or try a spicy chorizo and white bean stew with smoky, paprika laced sausage, releasing its oils into the creamy beans and creating liquid comfort. All right, come back to me. I know you’ve got lost in that stew I just described. So who would you invite over to experience this bold Portuguese red wine? The spontaneous socialite. The travel trendsetter. History hobbyist. Literary lover. Talented teacher. All right. And I’m not going to keep naming those a little bit repetitive for the last three wines. And I know you’ll remember. So. All right. You’re on fire today. The literary lover who devours novels. This is perfect for that person, because the Douro Valley inspired centuries of Portuguese writers.

Natalie MacLean 00:10:21 And the wine’s name literally means solar spirit. Next up, the Frontera after midnight from Chile. This is such a fun wine with an evocative name. It’s smooth and approachable from Chile’s Central Valley, and it captures that magical late night energy. When conversations get deeper and stories flow easier, it offers juicy aromas of blackberry and plum with a touch of vanilla and spice, then delivers soft, rounded flavors of dark cherry and mocha. It’s brooding and mysterious and sultry, and it’s the kind of wine that makes you want to lower your voice and whisper words like lingering finish. All right, so here’s an interesting fact. Chile’s wine industry benefits from the unique geography. It’s protected from vineyard pests by the Pacific Ocean to the west and the Andes Mountains to the east, as well as the Atacama Desert to the north and the glaciers to the south. This natural isolation means Chile never suffered from phylloxera, the root louse that devastated European vineyards in the 1800s. I’d pair this with a wood fired pizza with caramelized onions and aged cheddar with a charred crust provides textural contrast to the melted cheese’s stretchy richness.

Natalie MacLean 00:11:34 Or try classic beef Chile, simmered for hours until the meat practically dissolves into the smoky, spicy comfort or even grilled chicken tacos with fresh salsa, where lime brightened and tomatoes cut through the wine’s fruitiness. All right, so who are you gonna call over? Who are you going to call? All right. Yes, it’s the spontaneous socialite who comes alive after sunset and always suggests one more glass, one more story. Because this wine literally celebrates after hours magic. And those moments when the best conversations happen and suddenly it’s 2 a.m. and you have solid world peace. Okay, next up, we have the Henry of Pelham Schoolhouse Cabernet Merlot from Niagara. And this one is also steeped in family history. The dark red stone for this blends namesake schoolhouse was quarried from atop the escarpment overlooking the vineyard. The speck cousins attended that old school, and together they hand planted their first Cabernet Merlot vines within sight of the building. There’s even a second meeting. Paul and Bobby Speck ran a small school in Toronto for more than 20 years before founding Henry of Pelham Winery.

Natalie MacLean 00:12:49 This wine follows in the footsteps of European Bordeaux blends with brilliant dark fruit balanced with a solid backbone of tannin. It’s classically inspired and showcases cassis, blackberry and plum with hints of cedar, graphite and subtle herbal notes. Fun fact. Cabernet Sauvignon usually provides the structure and aging potential, while Merlot adds softness and approachable fruit. Or you could say Cabernet is the planner who books a vacation one year out. Merlot is the one who remembers to pack the snacks together. They’re unstoppable. I pair this with herb crusted prime rib, roasted to medium rare perfection, with its salt and pepper bark crackling against the tender meat that releases pink juices with every slice. Or even try blue cheese with walnuts, where the cheese, sharp pungency and creamy texture find harmony with the wine structure. So given this wine’s heritage, who are you going to call? yes, the talented teacher. You are batting a thousand today. Or should I say your grammar and diction are on point? Invite your favorite teacher. Because the wine’s name and story honor the transformative power of education and learning.

Natalie MacLean 00:14:00 Plus, teachers deserve wine. Have you met teenagers? This is perfect for come over October, because teachers often pour their hearts and so much into others and deserve to be celebrated. They spend all day teaching other people’s children not to eat glue, so the least we can do is pour them something delicious. And finally, we have Lisbon by Night Red blend from Portugal, which captures the romance of Lisbon’s cobblestone streets with its complex mix of native grapes creating layers of dark fruits, smoke and spice. This is the kind of wine that transports you to a Lisbon wine bar, with the Kardashians singing and the scent of grilled seafood in the air, and this wine revels in blackberry liqueur notes intertwined with tobacco and a hint of Mediterranean herbs. The finish ends with warming spices that linger like a perfect autumn evening. Lisbon by Night is crafted by vertical wines. A small but adventurous winery founded in a 19th century monastery where the vaulted stone cellars are still in use today. Fun fact Lisboa The wine region around Portugal’s capital has a maritime climate, and the wines from coastal regions tend to have higher acidity and fresher fruit flavors than wines from warmer inland areas.

Natalie MacLean 00:15:21 That Atlantic Ocean breeze helps preserve the acidity and brightness. So I pair this with grilled octopus with smoked paprika and roasted red pepper coulis with a char from the grill echoes the wine. Smoky notes and the sweet peppers complement its fruity richness, transporting you again to that Portuguese tavern on a crisp fall night, or try Bachelor Abra featuring salt cod shredded into golden matchstick potatoes bound with scrambled eggs, creating comfort food that sings the wine. Savory complexity. All right. Who are you going to call the travel trendsetter? Wow. You’re five out of five. This person collects passport stamps and loves discovering hidden gems. Because this wine introduces them to grape varieties they’ve probably never heard of but will remember forever. Portugal actually has 250 indigenous grape varieties, more than any other country, and that creates incredibly distinctive wines. Come Over October is about creating those transport moments that connect us to people and places. So come over in October and we’ll remember till November. My final words of wisdom this month put down your phone, pick up a corkscrew and invite someone over.

Natalie MacLean 00:16:38 The dishes can wait, the emails can wait. Way, but moments of real connection. Those are worth savoring now. Clink, clink and cheers. So let me know if you’d like your brand featured on a future TV segment, or would like to advertise with us through our podcast, newsletter, website, social media or mobile apps. If you represent a winery, distillery, brewery or an agency or regional wine council representing wine, spirits, cocktails, lifestyle, food or decor brands, please email me at Natalie at Natalie MacLean. Back to today’s episode. Two of you are going to win a copy of Andy Neither and Jane Masters terrific new book, Rooted in Change The Stories Behind Sustainable Wine. I also have two copies of Doctor Tuffy Peter Mares book The Wines of Brazil to Give Away. If you’d like to win a copy of these books, please email me and let me know you’d like to win. It doesn’t matter where you live, I’ll choose four winners randomly from those who contact me at Natalie at Natalie MacLean dot com.

Natalie MacLean 00:17:42 Keep them for yourself or give them as gifts for the holidays. In other bookish news, if you’re reading the paperback or e-book or listening to the audiobook of my memoir, Wine Witch on Fire rising from the ashes of Divorce, defamation, and Drinking Way Too Much, a national bestseller in one of Amazon’s Best Books of the year, I’d love to hear from you at Natalie at Natalie MacLean dot com. I’ll put a link in the show notes to all retailers worldwide at Natalie MacLean. Com. 361. Okay, on with the show. What caught my eye was is it Torres? Who does the CO2 silver balloons? Explain what that is for people who aren’t familiar with what they’re doing there.

Jane Masters 00:18:27 So when wine is fermenting. So basically the you’ve got your grapes, they’ve been pressed, you’ve got the juice in the tank, which has got lots of lots of sugar in it. And actually to transform grape juice into wine. It’s the yeast that carry out the alcoholic fermentation. So as they do that, they’re metabolizing the sugar, creating ethanol, which is alcohol, creating a load of heat that is given out, and then also giving off carbon dioxide.

Jane Masters 00:18:56 So it’s a natural emission from any alcoholic fermentation basically, whether that’s beer or other fermented things. But the thing about wine is that the emissions that come out of the top of a wine tank are the most concentrated CO2 emissions of any industry at all. So quite often people talk about concretes and what the concrete industry is trying to do to capture the emissions of CO2 during concrete production, which is very, very hard because it’s actually it’s giving it off, but it’s giving it off all over the place out of every bit of concrete and at very, very low levels. Whereas you’ve got a tank of tank fermenting wine full up. It’s got a chimney at the top, and all of that CO2 is bubbling up through the fermenting tank and given off at the top. So what? Torres. And for the majority of wineries, and historically, that has just dissipated into the atmosphere around us. And it’s actually a health and safety hazard.

Andrew Neather 00:19:59 It’s not counted when people add up their emissions either.

Jane Masters 00:20:01 It’s not taken into account when doing a carbon audit because it’s produced by a living organism, the yeast, but it has exactly the same impact in the atmosphere.

Jane Masters 00:20:14 Biogenic we call it so, which is why it’s not included in the calculations, but it’s actually having exactly the same impact as any other CO2 emissions. So Torres have been pioneers. There are a few other people. There’s Smith, Laffite, I think in Bordeaux. There’s a company in Bordeaux whose name I can’t remember now who’ve been doing a lot of research. There’s another one in the States looking at how to put an infrastructure to capture this CO2. And of course, a lot of wineries use CO2. They use it to protect the wines against oxidation during storage. It’s used as dry ice to protect grapes when they come into the winery, just to cool them down, and again to prevent the fermentation from starting before it’s ready. So there are uses for it.

Andrew Neather 00:21:01 The tourist baleen is basically just a large. What are they made of? I don’t know. It’s got to be some sort of plastic size fabric. But anyway, you collect the CO2 as it bubbles off the top.

Jane Masters 00:21:11 And then they’ll pressurize.

Jane Masters 00:21:12 It and use it.

Jane Masters 00:21:13 For.

Andrew Neather 00:21:13 Pressurize it and put it into into canisters. And then you can use it elsewhere in a.

Jane Masters 00:21:18 Winery.

Andrew Neather 00:21:19 Or sell it if you’ve got too much. I mean, there’s obviously a big commercial market in CO2.

Natalie MacLean 00:21:23 Well, who would buy CO2?

Jane Masters 00:21:25 Oh well, the beer industry.

Jane Masters 00:21:27 Drinks industry.

Natalie MacLean 00:21:27 Oh I see. To add the bubbles.

Jane Masters 00:21:29 Anything fizzy has got. and actually.

Jane Masters 00:21:32 In the last.

Jane Masters 00:21:33 Few years, there have been times where CO2 has been extremely expensive and extremely difficult to source for the soft drinks industry. So.

Jane Masters 00:21:42 Wow.

Natalie MacLean 00:21:43 Okay, let’s turn now to yeast. You describe the quiet drama of yeast selection and temperature control. What sustainability choices in the cellar have been most overlooked in the impact of these choices when it comes to East especially?

Jane Masters 00:21:58 Well, yeast, as I said just now, are responsible for basically the transformation of grape juice into wine. Yeasts have been selected over the years for certain traits, such as particular flavors, producing less compounds such as acetic acid, which we call volatile acidity.

Jane Masters 00:22:19 So they’ve been selected for various criteria. Each different yeast strain works in a slightly different way, has a different optimum temperature at which it ferments. So we can now take sort of yeast fermentation further and think about actually. So most ferments I should say as well, use a lot of refrigeration, therefore energy electricity to chill them down whilst they’re fermenting. So by selecting yeasts that work at optimum slightly higher temperatures, so you use less refrigeration, you can reduce your energy use and energy bills. There’s also lactic bacteria which are used to what we call malolactic, which is mainly in red wines, but in some white wines as well. So it’s the transformation of malic acid, which is naturally in grapes, into lactic acid, which is a slightly softer, more savoury character. It again creates a different level of flavours and complexity in a wine. As it happens in the past, you would ferment with yeast and then you would wait for the malolactic to sort of happen. And quite often that would take a long time, and you would have to keep the tanks at a certain temperature.

Jane Masters 00:23:31 And again, you’re using energy to maintain that warm temperature.

Andrew Neather 00:23:35 To encourage.

Jane Masters 00:23:35 It. Whereas now we can actually do what we call cocoa inoculation. So carry out the yeast fermentation and the malolactic at the same time. So you’re reducing energy consumption and you’re reducing any sort of risk of spoilage or anything else happening which spoilage. You may not think it’s linked to sustainability, but at the end of the day, sustainability also includes economic sustainability. So we need to maximize everything that we’ve grown in the field to get the best possible quality wine and decent amounts of it.

Andrew Neather 00:24:08 I think the other thing to say about about wild yeasts is that a number of the producers I’ve talked to who use them, it’s part of their whole respect for the tour. I remember particularly Noelia, Kiko, who’s a great winemaker in Ribera del Toro in northern Spain, saying that this, this ver it’s it’s part of their land. You’ve got these natural yeasts that are naturally occurring on the grapes when they come into the winery, they can be slightly less predictable for a winemaker to use, but for producers like her, it’s part of trying to make a more natural wine, which is true to its terroir.

Andrew Neather 00:24:42 And you also, you know, you don’t buy in these additives which are made in a factory somewhere.

Jane Masters 00:24:46 I think it is a philosophical choice to a certain extent. I mean, the research, scientific research does show that there’s very, very few actual ferment of use out there in the vineyard, in the vineyards themselves. So yes, a few come in on grapes, but not many. Most of them are actually somewhere in in the winery. But it’s a choice. Just like there’s no one way of making wine. Everyone has their own mind’s eye about the style of wine and what they want to produce as the end result, and how they want to get there.

Natalie MacLean 00:25:21 Sure, you talk about another Spanish winery, Boronia, which is Leed certified, so the building is certified by an international Organization for being Sustainable. You mentioned 80% of the winery is buried underground with boreholes 100m deep circulating cool water. I guess that’s a more natural way, again, of cooling rather than using energy to bring down the temperature.

Andrew Neather 00:25:46 A lot of it is ultimately about a winery’s electricity usage. So also, for instance, at that winery. But a bunch of other wineries, they rely on gravity to transport the grapes you put in at the top. And they, you know, essentially they go down a chute rather than being pumped. So you reduce your electricity consumption.

Natalie MacLean 00:26:07 You don’t have to go pumping them up. Yeah. And then, as you said, there’s another side effect that is better for the wine. You’re treating the grapes more gently by letting them go from stage to gentler.

Jane Masters 00:26:17 Any pumping, you’re sort of in effect, crushing and potentially extracting some more vegetal characters from the pips and the skins themselves. I think we’re sort of going back to the future, because if you look in the past in certainly in old European wine regions, I guess a lot of them were built before there was even electricity, to be honest. So they actually were built facing a certain direction to actually enable a constant temperature, which was lower.

Jane Masters 00:26:51 So we’re sort of going back and I think then, you know, with the advent of electricity and all sorts of technology, which has all been great to a certain extent, but again, has had now consequences that we know that we didn’t know at the time. And so I think we’re sort of going back to where we were. It’s just about using resources as efficiently as possible. And I think in the past that’s what people did. They were a bit more parsimonious with things. You know, everything was reused, thought about, kept. And I think we’re sort of moving a bit back to that, which is at the basis of the circular economy that we will talk about.

Natalie MacLean 00:27:26 Absolutely. Yeah. Before the Green Revolution, so-called when we started using post-war in industrial processing of our food. So did you find any standout examples of logistics innovation, whether it was rail, sea or road? Because transporting the wine and the bottles is just so massively intensive on the environment. Is there an example of someone doing it really innovatively?

Andrew Neather 00:27:51 Well within Europe, for instance, Liberty Wines, which is one of the biggest British wine importers.

Andrew Neather 00:27:57 They’re an Italian specialist, although they import from Spain and France and places as well. They’ve transferred a lot of their shipping from road to either sea or rail. David Gleave, the chairman, was telling me that it really wasn’t actually that difficult, for instance, to bring wine from northern Italy to the channel ports by rail. Similarly, in Spain I know, for instance, Torres have switched to taking wine. It needs to be trucked part of the way. Basically, you can send it by rail up to the Netherlands, for instance, and then it has to go on trucks or you send it by sea from Spain. It wasn’t that difficult. You might lose like a couple of days. You can just put that into your schedule.

Jane Masters 00:28:41 And I think there are other examples in the UK, but also we should mention System Bellagio for example, and the other Nordic monopolies. So system blog, it is the wine government appointed monopoly just like you have in have the Sark or.

Natalie MacLean 00:28:56 The retailer here.

Jane Masters 00:28:57 Yeah, the retailer in Sweden.

Jane Masters 00:28:59 But alongside each of the Nordic. So we’re talking Norway, Denmark, Sweden. They’ve all got in a similar way to you guys. A monopoly is there, but they have worked really hard at a lot of issues of sustainability and probably led the way in actually bringing wine from southern Europe up by train, often some of it to be packed actually in markets and actually driven quite To a high level, the proportion of wines that are sold in bag and box. So they’ve really done the full A to Z if you like.

Andrew Neather 00:29:35 Nearly a third of wine sold in Sweden by system. Bollinger is bagging box now.

Jane Masters 00:29:41 And there’s lots of that. As I say goes by train from southern Europe up to them. So really impressive.

Natalie MacLean 00:29:47 I wonder how they got past the consumer perception, the hangover perception that that’s no good. The back in box wine.

Jane Masters 00:29:54 I don’t think that perception was there. We had a conversation with them and sort of tested them about about this. And they said, well, you have to understand is and I think Canada might be similar in some ways in that they said a lot of our customers, they just they’ve got summer houses or they go sailing or they’re away at weekends.

Jane Masters 00:30:14 They just want to swing by, pick up something that’s really easy to carry. Put it in the boot of their car and have it there so that they know they’ve got their glass of wine each day. They never had the impression that it was a lesser, lower quality because it was in bagging box.

Andrew Neather 00:30:31 Markus is the head of sustainability assistant. Bolliger said you thought that this this appealed to something in the Swedish soul because it was it was so practical. It didn’t have the sort of, I guess, the sort of snob value.

Natalie MacLean 00:30:45 For.

Natalie MacLean 00:30:46 Rugged Canadians out there in the woods. Yes. Of course.

Andrew Neather 00:30:49 Conversely, just earlier this week, I was talking to a British specialist, important mainly from France, and he said they brought some of their sort of entry level wine in, in back in box. And, and they’d had trouble selling it. They’d got rid of it eventually. But you’re right that in some markets there’s definite consumer perceptions to, to to educate.

Natalie MacLean 00:31:09 It is changing with the younger generations too are more practical.

Natalie MacLean 00:31:13 Let’s talk about greenwashing. What is it. Can you give us some specific examples? It’s fake environmental marketing. What should we be looking out for.

Andrew Neather 00:31:24 There’s greenwashing across the board, all sorts of consumer products. Essentially, it’s companies trying to persuade you, the consumer, that they are greener than they actually are in their practices. I think in wine, I haven’t really seen as outrageous claims as in some places. But you see, for instance, I mean, for a consumer, I would be suspicious of anyone who is using carbon offsetting to claim that they’re carbon neutral. Our view is that carbon offsetting is really kind of a cop out. This is where essentially the company will pay for trees to be planted in parts of the world. Usually in the developing world, it will pay for things like low energy light bulbs or stoves in parts of the developing world, and it’s fine if it actually adds to capacity. It doesn’t do something which would have been done anyway. The tree planting. It’s highly questionable how much good it does.

Andrew Neather 00:32:23 It’s really always better for, you know, a company in that position to ask themselves, how can we reduce our carbon emissions? Never mind carrying on doing what we were before and sort of paying somebody to plant trees and we can feel good about ourselves? No. How do we reduce our emissions?

Jane Masters 00:32:42 So I think carbon offsetting is a short term measure that if you are part of a, as Andy says, a real audited scheme that can really demonstrate that without that scheme, the carbon emissions would have been higher. But that’s quite difficult. But I also think there’s an element of greenwashing. I don’t think all of it is conscious. I think sometimes people latch onto one aspect of sustainability. For example, aluminium cans. We’ve already talked about aluminium being not as sustainable as we all perhaps think it is because whilst it’s recyclable, it’s high energy intensive. And yet someone will put wine into an aluminium can. And that is this is the most sustainable wine packaging that you have. And there is no acknowledgement of, well, actually it’s sustainable in some ways, but not in others.

Jane Masters 00:33:36 Other things I’ve seen are things like plastic or synthetic stoppers that made from recycled plastic, picked up on coastal areas and things, and people say, oh, this is really, really. I said, well, what happens to this stopper when you finish using it?

Natalie MacLean 00:33:52 Just use a cork. It ends up on the beach again.

Jane Masters 00:33:55 I’ve had these conversations with wineries and they say, well, what do you mean? I said, well you’re saying it’s the sustainable. What happens after your customer has finished using it? And it’s like, oh, well, we hadn’t really thought about that. So the greenwashing part of it, I think comes from a naivety or a lack of actually really questioning what you’re doing, whether weather saying. And just presenting it as the most sustainable option. When we all know that there is no one option that’s that sort of ticks all the boxes. And we’ve just got to be more clear about that and actually provide, I think, information to consumers. Glass. We’ve talked about some of the issues around glass being heavy, but at the end of the day, there is no doubt that if you want a wine that is going to be drunk two years after it’s been in bottle, it has to be in a glass bottle.

Jane Masters 00:34:50 So then you get on to, well, how can we make that glass bottle the most sustainable option that it is?

Andrew Neather 00:34:57 The only other thing I would say is that I get that it’s complicated communicating this stuff. And if you’re trying to communicate it in a quite a small space, like a label or, you know, a little bit of a website as we’ve been discussing, this stuff is complicated. There aren’t some plants, simple, consumer friendly answers a lot of the time, but I, you know, if you’re a company and you’re trying to explain what you’re doing, you just need to try and do that. And, I mean, I’m a communicator. There are ways to explain your values and specifically how you’re making a product which are succinct and comprehensible to people, and you just need to work on that.

Jane Masters 00:35:38 Yeah. And you need to abide by those values so that you live and breathe it as an organization. I think that’s where the greenwashing comes in, because we can all, I’m sure, find instances where you go on website and it will tell you how great they are and what they’re doing and their sustainability policy.

Jane Masters 00:35:53 And then when you actually challenge some of that, it doesn’t all necessarily stack up.

Natalie MacLean 00:36:00 And so what can we trust. What logos or certifications can we look for on wine bottles that say, yeah, this is an authentic whether you want to call it sustainable, regenerative, whatever. This is the type of wine I should support. I mean, of course we talked about this earlier. Lighter bottles, but are there any certifications we should look for?

Andrew Neather 00:36:20 It is tricky because the only kind of source of certifications which are out there, which are generally recognized, I mean, there’s there’s organic where the certification in each country, then there’s biodynamic, which is internationally regulated. And as we’ve discussed in both of those cases, I think if you’re buying an organic or a biodynamic wine, yes, it is probably better for the environment. It’s a good choice in those terms, not necessarily strictly sustainable because there’s a bunch of other things, but there’s a good starting point. The other one I’d mention is fair trade.

Andrew Neather 00:36:50 We haven’t really talked yet about the whole social sustainability angle, which is how wine businesses behave, how they treat their employees and their employees.

Natalie MacLean 00:37:00 Yeah. You have a really moving example.

Natalie MacLean 00:37:03 You talk.

Natalie MacLean 00:37:03 About correct.

Natalie MacLean 00:37:05 This pronunciation.

Natalie MacLean 00:37:06 Johann Reinecke in South Africa.

Andrew Neather 00:37:09 I mentioned.

Natalie MacLean 00:37:10 Realizing that.

Natalie MacLean 00:37:11 His workers were using newspapers under their clothes to stay warm while he was surfing in a wetsuit. How does this type of stark inequality shaped the sustainable conversation? Like when it comes to employees and and that sort of thing?

Andrew Neather 00:37:25 One of the reasons I went to South Africa, specifically earlier this year, was to look at labor standards and social sustainability, if you like. It’s sort of an extreme example because you have this horrible legacy from apartheid and this sort of racialized poverty, and there are still very, very major issues there. For instance, Rayner care, he committed to paying his workers houses and sending their kids to university and so on. And it’s it’s a gradual process. And as he and others said to me in this South African context, it will take generations.

Andrew Neather 00:38:00 I think in a way it’s almost more shocking when you see exploitation in Europe. And there have been several well-documented cases recently of exploitation, particularly in champagne. Also in Bordeaux, champagne, you have a particular issue because you’ve got harvest in quite a short period of time. You need to bring in, I think it’s about 60,000 pickers at harvest time. Whereas in days gone by, you know, you’d get families sort of turning out to help with the harvest. The countryside has been to populated, mechanized in champagne. You’re not allowed to pick by machine. It has to be picked by hand according to the rules of the appellation. And so you bring in mostly migrant workers. Inevitably, it gets subcontracted by the big champagne houses, and the subcontract will subcontract. Ultimately, you get gang masters bringing in East Europeans, people from sub-Saharan Africa and, you know, mistreating them in various ways. I would say I mean, this isn’t all champagne has it by any means at all. There have been a whole series of cases, workers being made to live in appalling conditions, not being paid and so on.

Jane Masters 00:39:11 To add to that, though, I would say this is something it’s not unique to great growing or winemaking. This is something that is found in agriculture. Generally all around the world. There are migrant workers that travel around to different regions as the harvest happens. That’s always been the way.

Andrew Neather 00:39:32 But in California, Bolivians in Chile, in all of these places, the original agricultural workforce that you had there have moved away. It’s viewed as low status work. It’s poorly paid. And so you end up relying on migrants. And then when you do, you know, there’s a risk of exploitation.

Jane Masters 00:39:50 Yeah. And I think what’s also interesting is that so each chapter of the book, obviously we look at a different aspect of wine production and packaging and what happens post consumption and consumers and people. But all of those chapters actually are relevant to lots of other industries, whether it’s consumer goods manufacturer, whether its other aspects of agriculture.

Natalie MacLean 00:40:16 Like coffee and chocolate and.

Jane Masters 00:40:18 Its say so. Hopefully anyone that’s reading the book will understand a lot more about the wine trays and the issues it is, but also, I think, will get some value out of understanding sustainability more broadly than that.

Jane Masters 00:40:33 And each of those chapters is relevant. As an example, a case study, if you like, for other industries.

Andrew Neather 00:40:39 I think I think that’s a really important point because effectively, obviously we’re passionate about wine, we’re wine professionals, but we’ve taken what is for many people a relatively everyday product. And we’ve looked at how it gets literally from grape to the glass on your table, and you could do that sort of exercise, looking at the whole of the lifecycle of this product and its packaging for anything, a bottle of milk, you know, the computer on the table, anything. And we probably need to if we’re going to understand sustainability and really understand the environmental challenges ahead. Jane is right. You can apply a lot of the lessons of this book elsewhere. And, you know, we want people to.

Natalie MacLean 00:41:20 Absolutely. And if you could implement one global policy change to accelerate wine industry sustainability, what would that be?

Jane Masters 00:41:31 It really does come to the nub of what we’ve been saying today, I think, and that is that there is no one thing that you can do and there’s no one government, no one company.

Natalie MacLean 00:41:46 But if you had to pick one thing, if you had to prioritize one.

Jane Masters 00:41:50 Thing, to me it comes right back to the start, which is about climate change, which is affecting not just vineyards, but it’s affecting people’s lives, it’s affecting health, it’s causing migration, it’s affecting all sorts of not just human populations, but what’s happening in the oceans. And actually, we need to address. I come back to the climate change, which is being driven by fossil fuel use, and there’s got to be something that brings all of those governments and all of the world together. And I know we have the cop meetings and there are all sorts of commitments that have been made, but unfortunately, sadly, a lot of those have not materialized yet. And it is urgent. And it climate change is happening now and it’s not going to get any better until now. And obviously everybody.

Andrew Neather 00:42:42 Especially we have we have President Trump standing up at the UN this week and saying that the whole thing is a con, which I mean, is it would be laughable if it were just if it weren’t so sad.

Andrew Neather 00:42:54 That’s what we need is is international action on climate change specifically in wine. The biggest area where you could really change things is packaging, which we’ve discussed already. I mentioned earlier this bottle weight accord that’s Has been worked out by the Sustainable Wine Roundtable with a bunch of major retailers, but that needs to go much wider. And, you know, the sort of savings you’d get in wines carbon footprint would be enormous. I think that’s probably the biggest single thing. Yeah.

Jane Masters 00:43:22 Definitely.

Natalie MacLean 00:43:22 Right. No, that’s a good one. So let’s focus on what we can do. And there’s a lot though. It is a complex issue and I appreciate you breaking it down for us. I mean it’s a wonderful book. We could go on for a few more hours, but is there anything we haven’t covered that you’d like to mention as we wrap up?

Jane Masters 00:43:41 I think we’ve done quite a tour of everything. Thank you, because it’s been really thought provoking.

Andrew Neather 00:43:47 I would return to one point we touched on earlier, which is just the really inspiring work that’s being done by all sorts of winemakers and other people across the wine trade.

Andrew Neather 00:43:57 It’s quite easy to be pessimistic when you just see the enormity and complexity of global trade’s, the sort of stuff we’ve been looking at. And yet, you know, you come back to these various small organic producers. I met in Greece, in Chile, in Argentina, just working in a really inspiring way to improve their soils, to restore biodiversity. And let’s not forget, at the end of the day to make amazing wine, make really tasty wine, which you know, is, is ultimately the, you know, the object.

Natalie MacLean 00:44:29 Right? And sustaining in and of itself for those of us who love it. Oh that’s great. So where can we find you and your book online?

Andrew Neather 00:44:38 Well, you can get the book from the Academy Duveen Library if you Google Academy driven library and you can get it there. You can get it over Amazon as well. In Europe and North America.

Natalie MacLean 00:44:49 Probably all the major booksellers.

Andrew Neather 00:44:51 Indeed in in good bookshops everywhere, as the saying has it.

Natalie MacLean 00:44:55 That’s great. And where can we find you online? Are you on social or do you have websites?

Andrew Neather 00:45:00 I blog at, a view from my table on Substack and I’m on blue Sky as well.

Natalie MacLean 00:45:07 We’ll put the links in the show notes to all of this. Yes. And, Jane, you have a website too, right?

Jane Masters 00:45:12 Well, my website needs a lot of work, so I wouldn’t go to it right this minute, but it’s in. It is in design and but I’ve done a number of different webinars for the Institute of Masters of Wine, so you can always find we’ve had sessions going for the last three years or so. So each aspect of sustainability, I’ve done sort of hour long webinars with great panel members, most of them from the wine trade, but always trying to incorporate non wine trade person with some extra expertise that tackles the issues. So they’re all up online. You can search that on the Master of wine.org website. If you go into events, webinars and previous webinars I think they’re all up there.

Natalie MacLean 00:45:58 Okay. We’ll link to those as well.

Natalie MacLean 00:46:01 Jane and Andy, this has been marvellous. I mean, you’ve blown my mind with some of the stories and stats and silver balloons and all kinds of things.

Natalie MacLean 00:46:08 It’s fascinating. It really is. And I urge people to get your book rooted in change. What’s the subtitle again?

Jane Masters 00:46:15 The stories behind Sustainable Wine.

Natalie MacLean 00:46:18 There you go. Because it is enlightening not just for the wine industry, but for everything. We consume a lot of what we consume food and drink all about those supply chain issues and everything else. So I will say goodbye for now, but I hope we can raise a glass or two in person the next time we chat.

Jane Masters 00:46:35 I hope so. Do you ever come over to Europe?

Natalie MacLean 00:46:38 Occasionally, yes. But, you know, I’m very conscious of my environmental footprint, so I try not to use jet fuel when I don’t have to. But likewise, if you come over here to Canada, give me a shout, please.

Jane Masters 00:46:51 Will do.

Natalie MacLean 00:46:52 Okay.

Jane Masters 00:46:53 All right. Thank you.

Andrew Neather 00:46:54 Thanks, Natalie.

Jane Masters 00:46:55 Thank you.

Natalie MacLean 00:47:01 Well, there you have it. I hope you enjoyed our chat with Andy and Jane. Here are my takeaways. How can carbon offsetting claims in the wine industry be a form of greenwashing? As Andy explains for consumer, I would be suspicious of anyone who is using carbon offsetting to claim their carbon neutral.

Natalie MacLean 00:47:19 A company will pay for trees to be planted, low energy light bulbs or stoves in the developing world, and that’s fine if it actually adds to capacity. The tree planting, though, is highly questionable in how much good it does. It’s really better for the company to ask themselves, he explains. How can we reduce our carbon emissions? Jane says greenwashing or using green claims in your marketing to promote the product comes from naivety, or sometimes just a lack of questioning, or just presenting it as the most sustainable option, which sometimes it is not. Number two, how does the natural fermentation process in winemaking create one of the most concentrated sources of CO2 emissions in any industry. This really surprised me. So we know yeast carry out alcoholic fermentation as they do their eating the sugar, creating ethanol which is alcohol, creating a load of heat and carbon dioxide. So it’s a natural emission from any alcoholic fermentation, whether that’s beer or other fermented beverages. The thing about wine, though, is that the emissions come out at the top of the wine tank and are the most concentrated CO2 emissions in any industry.

Natalie MacLean 00:48:35 Conversely, in the concrete industry, they try to capture their CO2 emissions during concrete production. But it’s really hard because it’s giving it off all over the place. Whereas with wine you have a tank and you’ve got a chimney at the top, and all of that CO2 is bubbling up through the fermenting tank. For the majority of wineries historically, this just dissipated into the atmosphere around us. It’s actually a health and safety hazard. It’s also generally not taken into account when doing a carbon audit because it’s produced by a living organism, the yeast, but it has exactly the same impact on the atmosphere. I didn’t know that either. And then I love what the tourist family is doing and capturing their CO2. And number three, can yeast selection and fermentation techniques make winemaking more sustainable? So yeasts have always been selected for certain traits, particular flavours. Maybe creating fewer compounds of like acetic acid, which we call volatile acidity and explains each strain has a different optimum temperature at which it ferments. Most ferments use a lot of refrigeration, so a lot of energy and electricity to chill them down while they’re fermenting.

Natalie MacLean 00:49:49 So by selecting a yeast that works at higher temperatures, you need less refrigeration and you can reduce your energy use and energy bills. A second point on this is that the malolactic fermentation, when you convert harsher mallow bad assets into lactic acid to get a softer, more savory character. Well, you can now do that at the same time as you do the yeast fermentation. You combine two to do a Co inoculation. So you’re reducing energy consumption and the risk of spoilage and anything else happens. Spoilage of course, is a sustainability issue because if you are throwing out product or it’s not lasting or whatever, you’re not getting the best out of what you grow in that field because you’ve got wastage. All right. So if you missed episode 16, go back and take a listen. I chat about whether organic wines are better or healthier for you. I’ll share a short clip with you now to whet your appetite. Until the 1950s.

Natalie MacLean 00:50:52 Most grapes.

Natalie MacLean 00:50:53 Grown for wine.

Natalie MacLean 00:50:55 Were.

Natalie MacLean 00:50:55 Organic. That is, they.

Natalie MacLean 00:50:57 Were.

Natalie MacLean 00:50:57 Grown.

Natalie MacLean 00:50:58 Without using any.

Natalie MacLean 00:50:59 Synthetic pesticides.

Natalie MacLean 00:51:01 Or.

Natalie MacLean 00:51:01 Fertilizers. Then along came the.

Natalie MacLean 00:51:04 So-called.

Natalie MacLean 00:51:05 Green Revolution and the chemicals perceived as the modern and progressive way to farm. They seem to offer problem.

Natalie MacLean 00:51:13 Free.

Natalie MacLean 00:51:14 Fields without destroying the crops. The backlash started with the back to the land movement of the 1970s. Consumers worried about harm to the environment and the long term effects of chemicals used to produce food and drink. Scientists now believe that all such substances.

Natalie MacLean 00:51:34 Accumulate.

Natalie MacLean 00:51:35 In our bodies, and since they’ve only been used for several decades.

Natalie MacLean 00:51:40 We don’t know yet the full long term effects.

Natalie MacLean 00:51:49 You won’t want to miss next week when we chat with Elva Ramirez, the author of Sparkling and Zero Proof, which were both finalists for the best cocktail book at the tails of the cocktail. Sparkling is also a finalist for the IACP 2025 Best Cookbook Awards. Elva will join us from her home in Brooklyn, New York. If you liked this episode or learned even one thing from it, please email or tell a friend about the podcast this week.

Natalie MacLean 00:52:16 Especially someone you know would be interested in learning more about sustainable wines. It’s easy to find the Unreserved Wine Talk podcast, just tell them to search for that title or my name Natalie MacLean wine. On Apple Podcasts, Spotify, their favorite podcast app. Or they can listen to the show on my website at Natalie MacLean dot com podcast. Email me if you have a question or would like to win one of four copies of the books I have to give away. I’d also love to hear your thoughts on this episode, or if you’ve read my book or listening to it. Email me at Natalie at Natalie MacLean. Com. In the show notes, you’ll find a link to take a free online food and wine pairing class with me called the Five Wine and food pairing mistakes that can ruin your dinner and how to fix them forever at Natalie MacLean. And that’s all in the show notes at Natalie MacLean. 361. Thank you for taking the time to join me here. I hope something great is in your glass this week.

Natalie MacLean 00:53:14 Perhaps a wine that is truly offset its carbon imprint without giving up its flavor imprint.

Natalie MacLean 00:53:27 You don’t want to miss one juicy episode of this podcast, especially the secret full bodied bonus episodes that I don’t announce on social media. So subscribe for free now at Natalie MacLean. Subscribe. Meet me here next week. Cheers!