Why Is Sake A Better Match For Fish and Certain Cheeses Than Wine?

Natalie MacLean
Nov4th

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Introduction

How have wineries helped rebuild communities devastated by natural disasters? Why do Japanese vineyards often grow grapes overhead on pergolas instead of traditional trellises? Why is sake a better match for fish and certain cheeses than wine?

In this episode of the Unreserved Wine Talk podcast, I’m chatting with Nick Rowan

You can find the wines we discussed here.

 

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Highlights

  • How are Japanese wineries helping communities rebuild after devastating earthquakes and tsunamis?
  • Why do Japan’s strict farmland ownership laws make it so difficult for wineries to expand?
  • What makes Hokkaido particularly attractive to foreign winemakers looking to establish larger vineyards in Japan?
  • How do Japan’s unusual pergola-trained vines and individual grape umbrellas protect vineyards from the country’s challenging climate?
  • Why were Japanese wineries producing wine for submarine sonar equipment during World War II?
  • What makes Japan’s artisan cheese industry an unexpected discovery for wine lovers?
  • Do Japanese Koshu wine and saké pair better with certain cheeses than traditional high-acid wines?
  • Why should wine lovers approach Japanese wine tastings more like a selection of sushi rather than expecting one bold, powerful wine?
  • When is the best time to visit Japan’s wine regions, and which seasons should travellers avoid?
  • How does wine fit into Japanese food culture when saké already has such deep culinary and cultural roots?
  • Did the hugely popular Drops of God manga and television series help Japanese wines gain recognition, or mostly reinforce the appeal of famous European wines?
  • Why are some Japanese winemakers deliberately limiting sales of their rare wines rather than encouraging collectors to stockpile them?
  • What should wine lovers know about Japanese wines before tasting them for the first time?

 

Key Takeaways

  • How have wineries helped rebuild communities devastated by natural disasters?
    • We remember the tsunami that came through 2001. They call it the great earthquake. It was really brutal. there was only one winery, Yamamoto Winery, in Miyagi Prefecture, and it just wiped it away and everyone inside it gone. A lot of people have rebuilt them to try and regenerate the communities. a lot of wineries start as revitalization projects. That happened first in Hokkaido. Successful so people thought, right, let’s try grape growing, winemaking, bring in tourists. They don’t have to be fine wines. It just has to bring in people who are curious to try them and revive the economy. There is one village that lost everything and they decided they were going to plant one grape vine for every one person they lost from their community, which was 16,000 grapevines.
  • Why do Japanese vineyards often grow grapes overhead on pergolas instead of traditional trellises?
    • Trellising, if you imagine, the vines grow up and then the branches come off and the grapes go up or they go down. Pergola just flips that 90 degrees, so the grapes hang from the bottom. So it’s like an umbrella that goes up and then the grapes dangle down. Now that allows the wind to blow through and it helps control the humidity. The canopy helps protect it from direct sunlight, sometimes the rain. they put sometimes umbrellas, a little bit of paper or wax over every single bunch to protect it from the rain. And that can take weeks or months.
  • What makes Japan’s delicate Koshu wine a great match for fish and certain cheeses?
    • 70, 80% is mountains. The rest they’ve got to grow rice on and live. And then only in Hokkaido is a lot of pasture land. saké works better with cheese than wine does. And I say this as a wine lover that doesn’t understand saké. Koshu works really well with fish, and apparently it’s got a very low iron content and low acidity and high iron content in a wine makes fish really fishy.

 

About Nick Rowan

Nick Rowan spent his early 20s in rural Japan, blissfully unaware of Japanese Wine. Having spent over a decade deep-diving into the world of wine, developing an interest in lesser-known grapes and wine regions, he has combined the two in this, his first book. He lives in Berkshire, UK, with his partner who has put up with his wine obsession the whole time. They both wish they had a pet cat.

 

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Transcript

Natalie MacLean 00:00:00 How have wineries helped rebuild communities devastated by natural disasters? Why do Japanese vineyards often grow grapes overhead on pergolas instead of the traditional trellises? And why is saké a much better match for fish in certain cheeses than wine? In today’s episode, you’ll hear the stories and tips that answer those questions. In part two of our chat with Nick Rowan. By the end of our conversation, you’ll also discover why Japan’s strict farmland ownership laws make it so difficult for wineries to expand. What makes Hokkaido particularly attractive to foreign winemakers looking to establish larger vineyards in the country? Why Japanese wineries were producing wine for submarine sonar equipment during World War two. What makes Japan’s artisan cheese industry an unexpected discovery for wine lovers? Why we should approach Japanese wine tastings more like a selection of sushi rather than expecting one bold, powerful wine style. The best time to visit Japan’s wine regions and which seasons travelers should avoid. How wine fits into Japanese food culture when Saki already has such deep culinary and cultural roots. Whether the hugely popular Drops of God manga series and TV show helped Japanese wines gain recognition or mostly reinforce the appeal of famous European wines, and what wine lovers should know about Japanese wines before tasting them for the first time.

Natalie McLean 00:01:38 Do you have a thirst to learn about wine? Do you love stories about wonderfully obsessive people, hauntingly beautiful places, and amusingly awkward social situations? Well, that’s the blend here on the Unreserved Wine Talk podcast. I’m your host, Natalie McLean. And each week I share with you unfiltered conversations with celebrities in the wine world, as well as confessions from my own tipsy journey as I write my third book on this subject. I’m so glad you’re here. Now pass me that bottle, please, and let’s get started.

Natalie MacLean 00:02:20 Welcome to episode 414. So what’s new in the drinks.

Natalie McLean 00:02:25 World will this week.

Natalie MacLean 00:02:25 In fur, feathers and fermentation, an eccentric pub owner in Yorkshire, England, trained his pet African grey parrot to shout last orders from the brass perch over the bar counter. The clever bird now scolds customers who try to order another pint after the final evening bell rings. Polly wants a.

Speaker 3 00:02:44 Pinot noir hang out.

Natalie MacLean 00:02:46 In the steep Moselle River valley of Germany. An estate owner brought in a four legged robotic dog to test if automated machines can inspect Riesling vines on steep 60 degree slate hills.

Natalie MacLean 00:02:59 The robot managed to walk up the incline without sliding down into the river, much to the amusement of nearby grape pickers. Getting back down the hill was another matter. A vineyard manager in Germany recently wired audio sensors to the bark of his vines to listen to the vascular flow of fluid. He found that when grapevines suffer from severe water stress during a dry spell, they produced tiny acoustic clicking noises that sound almost like popcorn popping. The spirits business went digging into UK baby name records on October 30th. It matched 30 years of names to spirits brands. Jack Daniel’s won by a mile with 190,333 jacks and 121,704 Daniel’s, plus 13 babies named Jack Daniel. George T Stagg came in second thanks to 124,340 Georges, there were 18 babies named tequila. I have met a woman named Chardonnay, so a sommelier in London, England, set an unofficial record for savouring a bottle of champagne using a stiletto heel during a recent charity gala. She popped the cork cleanly off the glass neck on her very first try. To thunderous applause from the crowd.

Natalie MacLean 00:04:18 I’m far more impressed that she didn’t damage her shoes during prohibition in the United States, moonshiners strapped, custom carved wooden blocks shaped like cow hooves to the bottom of their shoes. Whenever federal revenue agents combed through the woods looking for hidden stills, they found only ordinary bovine tracks winding between the pine trees. And for your weird but wonderful scientific facts of the week, did you know that the color of the ambient lighting in the room has been scientifically proven to change how we perceive the taste of wine. Studies show that drinking in a room bathed in red light makes the wine taste up to 9% sweeter, and much fruitier than drinking the exact same color under a green light or a white light. And when you pour wine from a standard glass bottle, that recognizable glug glug sound is actually a demonstration of acoustic Helmholtz resonance. As each liquid slug exits the neck. Incoming air bubbles create a rapid pressure pulse inside the bottle cavity, giving every unique bottle shape its own distinct musical pitch. There’s a French term called glow glow for global easy drinking wines after how they sound when they’re being poured.

Natalie MacLean 00:05:38 And for your food and drink calendar this week come over. October has wrapped up, but I came across an interesting fact. The World Health Organization attributed more than 871,000 deaths a year to loneliness in 2025. Some doctors and psychiatrists are bemoaning the shrinking of third spaces, places where we gather outside of the home and work like pubs and wine bars and restaurants. In the UK and Ireland, about 450 pubs closed in 2025, or more than one every day. Canada lost 98 bars that same year, about two a week, one every four days. Coincidence? I don’t think so. I love going to my favourite breakfast place in Ottawa called The Third. And yes, it’s named because it is one of those third places. I love it. And no, I don’t drink Cabernet with my eggs, Benny, but it sure feels like that bar in the sitcom cheers where everyone knows your name. And by the way, if you go for brekkie or any other meal, please say hello to John behind the bar.

Natalie MacLean 00:06:42 He’s the owner. Say. Nat says hi. November 4th is National Candy day. Candy makers began using molds and machinery to make sweets on a large scale during the Industrial Revolution. Candy and wine have a long, occasionally chaotic relationship. The pairing rule is that the wine should always be as least as sweet, if not sweeter, than the dessert, or else the wine will taste bitter by comparison. November 5th is International Stout Day. Stout first meant a stronger version of Porter, the dark beer born in London’s Porter Houses in the early 1700s. Over time it became a style of its own. Most of its dark color comes from the heavily roasted barley. A good stout can taste like coffee, chocolate and a cozy sweater all at once. November 6th is National Nachos Day. The dish is credited to Ignacio Nacho. That was his middle nickname, and Naia, a maitre d in Mexico. In 1943, a group of American military wives from across the border arrived just after the kitchen had closed, so he improvised with tortilla chips, melted cheese and jalapenos, and he named the plate after himself.

Natalie MacLean 00:07:57 November 7th is International Merlot Day. The word comes from Merle, the French word for blackbird. Merlot is one of the most widely planted wine grapes in the world. It’s known for its plum, cherry and chocolate notes. November 8th this national Harvey Wall Banger Day. The cocktail mixes vodka, orange juice and Galliano. Legend says it’s named after a Manhattan Beach, California, surfer who stumbled into walls one too many times. It became famous through a Galliano advertising campaign that began in the late 60s. November 8th is National Cappuccino Day as well. The name traces back to the Capuchin friars. Their brown robes matched the color of espresso, softened with frothed milk. November 9th is National Scrabble Day. scrapple is a Pennsylvania Dutch dish of pork scraps, cornmeal, and spices pressed into a loaf. November 10th is National Vanilla Cupcake Day. Vanilla comes from the seed pod of an orchid, which makes it one of the few flavors with a flour powered origin story. It gets a bad rap as a plain choice. It’s the world’s second most expensive spice, after saffron.

Natalie MacLean 00:09:11 The 12th is International Tempranillo Day. The grapes name comes from Tempranillo, the Spanish word for early because it ripens ahead of many other Spanish reds. It’s a thick skinned variety. Back to today’s episode. If you’re reading the paperback or e-book or listening to the audiobook of my memoir, Wine Witch on Fire Rising from the Ashes of Divorce, defamation, and Drinking Too Much, a national bestseller and one of Amazon’s best books of the year. I’d love to hear from you at Natalie at Natalie mclean.com. There’s a terrific free guide for book clubs. I’ll put a link in the show notes to all retailers worldwide at Natalie McLean. Com forward slash for 14. Okay, on with the show.

Natalie MacLean 00:09:58 So you write that Japan is a tough place to make wine. And you’ve mentioned some of these things. Nature is against it. There’s brutal winters heat, humidity, typhoons, monsoons, earthquakes and tsunamis all the extreme weather conditions. Can you share with us maybe the result of several of these disasters, natural disasters, the impact they had, maybe on a winery or a specific region, what it looked like before and after, and how long it took to recover.

Nick Rowan 00:10:26 There’s two areas that really come to mind, and they’re both in the north of Japan that bore the brunt of recent earthquakes. And we remember the tsunami in 2011. That was 2001, 2011. It came through on Tohoku 2001. We for them, they call it the Great Earthquake. It was really brutal, and that was actually quite a sad chapter to research and write. Are you a constant lump in your throats when you found out that it came so many kilometers inland? It just there was only one winery, Yamamoto Winery, in Miyagi Prefecture, and it just wiped it away and everyone inside it gone. That was the only one that existed. There’s not quite a lot of wineries there. A lot of people have rebuilt them to try and regenerate the communities. It’s something interesting. In Japan, a lot of wineries start as revitalization projects. That happened first in Hokkaido successful. So people thought, let’s try grape growing winemaking, bring in tourists. They don’t have to be fine wines. It just has to bring in people who are curious to try them and revive the economy.

Nick Rowan 00:11:25 So some people have moved back from New Zealand. They were living abroad, some people have. They owned manufacturing companies. They said, I’m going to reinvest in the community. And in Fukushima, which is one prefecture south of Miyagi, there is one village that just lost everything, and they decided they were going to plant one grape vine for every one person they lost from their community, which was 16,000 grapevines they planted over the years, which for me, that’s just. Yeah, even now, that’s not.

Natalie MacLean 00:11:52 Good.

Nick Rowan 00:11:52 News. Then on the other side, Noto in 2014, I believe it was they had their earthquake and that it destroyed buildings and some vineyards more than anything. But I think there wasn’t the wide devastation as there was on the other side. But still every year they make there’s called it Tohoku wine. So Tohoku means east, north, the east, north part of Japan. And there’s 4 or 5 prefectures, and they get grapes from each of these prefectures and make it into one wine and not sold for charity.

Nick Rowan 00:12:24 And the on the anniversary of when the tsunami hit, people open the wine and share it on social media. And they’ve got a similar one for the Noto earthquake appeal that they make that for charity, and that help helps cut in some of the ongoing recovery.

Natalie MacLean 00:12:37 Wow, Wow. Okay. Yeah. Now, strict post-war land laws. You say limited individual ownership to just one and a half hectares, very small piece of land and kept corporations out of farmland. So how did the Burgundian house Monte get around that in 2025 and open an estate with 25 hectares? What’s changing or did anything change?

Nick Rowan 00:13:03 I mentioned earlier, Kakadu has always been a little bit different. I call it the island of Japan in more ways than one, but they were historically not part of the same empire. They were brought in a few hundred years ago. They were subjugated. They were treated like the Irish. The outsiders weren’t allowed to own land, etc. then they were assimilated. Now, post-war, the the government acquired, I think, all agricultural land.

Nick Rowan 00:13:26 And you were only allowed to own one hectare, or if you were farming it yourself, you could own one and a half hectares. And private companies were forbidden from owning agricultural land. And that’s still now why everything is small scale farming. Hokkaido was exempt from that, which is why the largest vineyard in which it’s about 117 hectares, but not all under vine. I think that’s somewhere around the 40. I’d have to double check the figures. It was in Hokkaido, and that’s also it was cheaper to buy land and easier to buy land. And that’s in an area where it’s a really good climate now for growing Pinot noir and Chardonnay. And that’s where I think it was easier for a foreigner, Etienne de Monte, to acquire a larger tract of land. Now, what is changing is that with under special conditions, under permission from the local council and maybe the national authorities as well need to give permission again. I’d have to dig into it. You can buy more than that. And some what some councils have done is get together some regional governments, they get together and they buy a tract of land, and then they rent out bits of it on the long term for people to, to, to farm or even renting might be side tracking of it.

Nick Rowan 00:14:38 There’s a lot of people that leave the rat race and think, I’m just going to go back to the country and they’ll grow asparagus, or they’ll grow yams, or they’ll grow grapes. And in Japan, it’s quite special because the farmer gets a lot of credit. So they have the farmers who are growing these fantastic strawberries for hundreds of dollars each year. We don’t see that in the West. We’ve commoditized everything. Yeah. Farmers are at the bottom. It’s commoditized. The supermarkets do it. You’ll never see this as a maybe a famous region. Rarely you’re ever going to see a famous farmer. Not in Japan. So their grapes. A winemaker will say, I have got Yamamoto. Sounds great. This is like you would with the crew in Alsace. You say this is from Kaiser Berg or this is from Premier Cru? Such and such like that. But it’s after the people’s names that are there, farming it. So people, the farmers do see that as a way to escape their race, get closer to nature.

Nick Rowan 00:15:25 And even then they’re treated like outsiders because they’re not from that village, even if they’re from the same prefecture. So it takes them years of proving themselves to the locals before anyone will then even rent them land to say okay, I trust you, you’re here for the long term. You can. So they end up with 5 or 6 plots all over the place trying to manage that, much like in South Africa. Some of the new wave of winemakers are having to do that. They can’t buy it, but they can rent or they can buy bits and they’re driving for hours from one to the other. In South Africa, on a smaller scale, it’s like that in Japan.

Natalie MacLean 00:15:56 Okay. All right. Yeah. For sure. Very small kind of Burgundian. Now you describe Tokyo rooftop vineyards. Are there many doing like Tokyo’s a big. How big a city is Tokyo? Is it.

Nick Rowan 00:16:10 Too big? My mind blowingly big. Yeah.

Natalie MacLean 00:16:13 It’s huge. Right?

Nick Rowan 00:16:14 Oh, yeah. That’s the biggest metropolis in the world.

Nick Rowan 00:16:17 Yeah.

Natalie MacLean 00:16:17 Oh, in the world. Okay.

Nick Rowan 00:16:18 Yeah, I think it is. Someone told me years ago it was the biggest mass movement of humans in the history of humanity. Every day in Russia were coming in and out of Tokyo, apparently.

Natalie MacLean 00:16:28 Really?

Nick Rowan 00:16:29 That may have changed, but yeah, that’s a testament of the efficiency of their transport system as well. And how you define Tokyo. But it’s a huge city. But they there is one winery, Fukagawa Winery, and they’ve there’s some labrusca grapes. They just grow them in plant pots, I think 20 or 40 plants on the rooftop of shopping center. I think in Tokyo you can go to a cafe there and see. I haven’t seen them, but and they make a few and they make a lot of wine from it and I.

Natalie MacLean 00:16:55 Oh, okay. So this is more of an isolated thing.

Nick Rowan 00:16:57 It’s a niche. It’s a market.

Natalie MacLean 00:16:58 Top vineyards okay.

Nick Rowan 00:16:59 I think it’s true now. But they’re the first one. It’s a good talking point.

Nick Rowan 00:17:03 Yeah. Look in London some of the the beehives now are on rooftops because it’s away from all the chemicals being sprayed and fields. So yeah sometimes it can be good. But yeah, it’s very much an anomaly, but one that was interesting enough that I kept in there.

Natalie MacLean 00:17:17 Yeah for sure. And another one that intrigued me a vineyard planted on a train station platform. Are you talking about where people wait to for the train? What are they doing pushing their way through the vines?

Nick Rowan 00:17:29 Yeah. know it’s a small city shield, UT it’s very important for winemaking history. It’s where around there Merlot was planted and was successful for the first time. It’s a very small railway station. I went in winter and I couldn’t even see the vines. But in Japan they grew mostly in pergola and we might see pergola, or maybe skinny little vines in North Italy. In Japan, if it’s Koshu, they can grow like Godzilla. They’ll shoot it five years old. They can be like your leg, and they can.

Natalie MacLean 00:17:57 Describe what pergola looks like as opposed to traditional trellis thing.

Nick Rowan 00:18:01 So trellis thing, if you imagine the vines grew up and then the branches come off and the grapes go up or they go down, pergola just flips that 90 degrees. But so the grapes hang from the bottom. So it’s like an umbrella from the top. And then the grapes dangle down. Now that allows the wind to blow through and it helps control the humidity. Yeah. The canopy helps protect it from direct sunlight. Sometimes the rain. Interestingly they put sometimes umbrellas, a little bit of paper or wax over every single bunch to protect it from the rain, and that can take weeks or months. It’s pretty interesting sight if you ever look up Japanese grapes umbrellas.

Natalie MacLean 00:18:36 These little umbrellas are like big size umbrellas.

Nick Rowan 00:18:39 And they’re got to be. Yeah. Big enough. Yeah. Umbrellas there? Yeah. They’re cautious. Quite a big bunch. They’re going to be tough like it’s going to be. Yeah. A4.

Natalie MacLean 00:18:51 Yeah. That would be very Instagrammable.

Nick Rowan 00:18:54 Oh it is. You’ll see it online. But I forgot what question I was answering. I’ve gone off of such a tangent.

Natalie MacLean 00:18:59 Just where were the vines planted on the train station. Like you didn’t see them because it was winter.

Nick Rowan 00:19:03 But I didn’t say it’s winter, but they go up and over, so they’d almost be like a climbing ivy plant. Yeah. And then they hang down and you can see them. Okay.

Natalie MacLean 00:19:11 That’d be.

Nick Rowan 00:19:11 Nice. And they make a couple of hundred bottles a year, and they they sell it from the tourist office beside the railway station. I get marketing, but it’s great to the homeland of Merlot in Japan. Is she or Judy in Nagano? So the train station, and just a few kilometers from the train station, there’s a high school that make wine as well. The kids, when they’re 16, they learn viticulture, winemaking. They can’t drink it till they’re 20, but they learn all the skills they need. And then when they’re 20, there’s going to be bottles set aside for them.

Nick Rowan 00:19:39 They can drink at the graduation.

Natalie MacLean 00:19:40 Oh that’s great, I love that. Now, during World War two, tartaric acid, a winemaking byproduct, was needed for submarine sonar equipment. So the government pushed grape growing and winemaking to generate more tartaric acid. Where did wine itself that was made to generate all this tartaric acid? Was it just sold off? Was it used that.

Nick Rowan 00:20:04 Would.

Natalie MacLean 00:20:04 Have been with.

Nick Rowan 00:20:05 It, that would have been sold in bulk, used in bulk for sweet wine. So until the 60s, from the 30s to the 60s, Japanese really like sweet wine. It was like an artificial port. So it’s artificially sweetened, artificially made sugars and spices and whatnot. And you can still buy it. Academy of Port Wine I’ve yet to try it. I’ve heard this great over ice and that was sold in bulk, but that died off whenever dry wines became fashionable in late 1968, I think, is when it flipped from sweet to dry. So after the war as well, a lot of wineries went out of business.

Nick Rowan 00:20:37 A lot of wineries were established as community businesses or prefectural for the war efforts, just to make the tartaric acid that went into Rochelle, salt that was made for sonar equipment, coatings. And after the war, then just with the economy tanked and the demand for wine tanked. They didn’t need this anymore. So a lot of vineyards disappeared, a lot of wineries disappeared. So that was a one of the many sort of great resets of the economy.

Natalie MacLean 00:21:02 Now you also include cheeses in your book. You profile over 90% of Japan’s artisan cheese makers. So why include cheese in a wine book? Of course, they pair beautifully together, but there’s lots of other Japanese dishes and foods that go well with wine. Why did you focus on cheese as well?

Nick Rowan 00:21:19 Right? Look, it almost seems I say the introduction, but it’s almost sacrilegious to talk about wine in a culture with such a rich rice and saké culture. So in for a penny and for a pint, let’s do cheese as well. You know, very little of Japan is actually pastureland.

Nick Rowan 00:21:34 7,080% is mountains. The rest they’ve got to grow rice on and live. And then only in Hokkaido is a lot of pasture land. Look, I love cheese. I love seeing how it goes together. I know Japanese made cheese. And I find it very difficult to source and to find out there. Even speaking to experts, they’re like, you can maybe try this shop. I’m very stubborn. I thought, I’m going to crack this. So I put some of my trips, like literally walking through shops, stations, tourist offices, researching the local cheese manufacturers society of who does where, the stores that sponsored are, what the festivals are, and really just tracking down. There are a few that are just really top world class butcher, but they’re small scale producers, right? I, I in Japan as well. A lot of the cheese are a lot of the wine publications will also feature cheesemakers and cheese. That’s part of the Western culture. They go well together. Bizarrely, Sark works better with cheese than wine does, and I say this as a wine lover that doesn’t understand Sark.

Nick Rowan 00:22:31 I think it’s a few things. Kosher works really well with fish, and apparently it’s got a very low iron content and low acidity and high iron content in a wine makes fish really fishy. And I’m wondering if that does the same with blue cheese, because certain wines and blue cheese for me, or fresh cheese, I just can’t palette. It’s just it’s fantastic reflux but not will cost you. And I’m wondering whether it’s the low acidity or low iron. And I know it’s sacrilegious.

Natalie MacLean 00:22:55 Being a type of sake, is it?

Nick Rowan 00:22:57 And of course you grape because the wine made from kosher.

Natalie MacLean 00:22:59 Okay. No, I thought you were talking about a particular type of sake.

Nick Rowan 00:23:02 There’s also a socket called kosher, which is confusing.

Natalie MacLean 00:23:04 Of course there is.

Nick Rowan 00:23:07 It means old alcohol, and that’s kosher rather than kosher. But yeah, even I would make a difference that. Yes. Yeah. So look there and I’ll be controversial. And I know a SAC instructor who teaches official psychic courses. That narrows it down to a few.

Nick Rowan 00:23:25 Agrees with me. Low acid works better with cheese. All this high acid cuts through the fat. I disagree. For me, low acid Gewürztraminer works so much better with some cheeses that I can’t pull out otherwise. I think that’s maybe why. Some Japanese wines, of course who works and why saké works with it as well. I could be wrong. It’s just my mind. That’s how I understand it.

Natalie MacLean 00:23:45 And is it just for you? The taste of the cheese just goes better with low acid. Or is there any sort of chemical dynamic going on there where? Low acidity? I don’t know. It just doesn’t clash with the cheese. Or because I’ve always heard high acidity cut through the fat of the cheese. Refresh your palate.

Nick Rowan 00:24:02 That’s what people. I find white wine really difficult with soft Jesus. And I love both, I love whites, I love soft cheese. I just I really struggle to appreciate them both together. I don’t know, I just find it kosher. I’ve never had a bad wine and bad cause you and cheese pairing and I just.

Nick Rowan 00:24:20 I opened the bottle like a verse a while back. Let me try these sort of soft, fresh cow’s milk cheeses that are maybe a bit oozy in the middle of that kind that sometimes I struggle. It could be my palate as well. There’s some palates that just blue cheese or coriander. Cilantro is another one that you’re either wired for it or you’re not. I haven’t scientifically approached it. I’m out one day.

Natalie MacLean 00:24:40 Oh that’s fine, that’s good. We all struggle, Nick. Don’t worry. You’re not alone. I hate cilantro, it tastes like soap to me anyway.

Nick Rowan 00:24:48 Yeah. That’s just that’s the way it’s wired. That’s. Yeah, I don’t yeah.

Natalie MacLean 00:24:51 The gene or whatever Julia Child had that. You either think it tastes great or like soap, it’s a la. But what’s the best or most surprising Japanese wine and cheese pairing that you’ve tasted?

Nick Rowan 00:25:03 I don’t think there’s any one that’s just jumped out. I think I just just being in Japan and finding that you have a plate of artisan cheeses that are very good, I’ll curb the Irishness of me there.

Nick Rowan 00:25:13 But yeah, they’re really good. And just having a selection of behind that for me in itself is just amazing. And I also say in the book that maybe come on here later, that there’s a fashion. I read a lot of opinions on wine, and some people are lamenting, oh, you got to appreciate a bottle of wine with friends. What’s all this about always wanting a different glass and wanting to taste things? I love variety, I love sushi comes in small bits. You can compare and contrast. They’re all very subtle. Yeah, but sushi beside a pepper steak or a fish taco and it’s going to drown that out. But in between them, it’s lovely to try the variety. And that’s what I love about Japanese wines. I said, don’t buy a bottle and expect to be wowed by it and expect it to blow your mind. Just have a whole variety. Just appreciate the differences and different regions and subtleties. It may not be for you. There’s certain wines that are world class that I don’t rave about, so everyone’s got different tastes, but I did treat it like sushi.

Nick Rowan 00:26:04 Lots of small quantities and a variety and just explore it and just have your mind blown by the fact that of all of Asia, they’ve really they’re the flagship winemakers, I think, Out there?

Natalie MacLean 00:26:15 Yeah. Now, you suggest July and August are brutally hot and humid in terms of visiting Japan, and winter is quiet, particularly around New Year. When should a North American wine lover visit the Japanese wine regions? What would be the best time of the year to go?

Nick Rowan 00:26:31 Almost like Europe if you go into spring after. But first you start to see the nice colors April early. I would have thought May was nice, but I was advising an English importer that, you know, on wineries to find. And he was there and they said it was just even up north. It was killing him. You know, the climate change is having an impact. You know, April may get there for the cherry blossom. You won’t be there at peak. Of course, you develop in time, but may alter then just before harvest.

Nick Rowan 00:26:57 So late September, still hot. October. But then once you get into harvest, wineries are really busy and it’s going to be difficult for them to really receive you. But I know some people that have gone, I school teachers who have to take off school holidays, they’ve gone out climb Fuji. They love it. It’s so oppressively hot and humid. My memories are just roasting in the heat out there. I wouldn’t go. And I know Canadians. I lived in a very cold, snowy place. Two meters of snow. Minus ten. A lot of Canadians chose to go there because they love the winter sports. They were crazy. So. Up to you. You can. Any time of year in Sapporo, you can go. Bar hopping. It’s amazing. With lots of great wine bars, you can just hop from one to the other. Tokyo with a bit more logistics because it takes time. You can as well. They’re always open to you to discover it in the bars. Start of the year.

Nick Rowan 00:27:45 Most places closed for a week, especially the wineries and in the snow areas that are closed for the season because it’s just roads are closed or people are moving their businesses to the ski slopes.

Natalie MacLean 00:27:56 Cool. Now, you note that ceremonies grew up around the rice harvest, and saké plays a role in those rituals, as does it has. The country has a fermented sauce culture that matches sake structure. So wine arrived in the country, in a country that already had the perfect drink. How does wine fit alongside saké on a Japanese table or culturally, do you think?

Nick Rowan 00:28:21 Yeah, it’s. Yeah, I think it’s more a choice. Yeah, people. Not everyone drinks wine. It’s still an exotic drink, much like over here. Not everyone’s going to drink beer or whiskey, but if you get a lot of whiskey lovers together, you’ll open some whiskeys and you’ll enjoy it. A lot of Italian and French restaurants would serve wine. And they do like French cuisine is a lot richer, so it’s quite different and exotic compared to the sushi and the freshness of some fish.

Nick Rowan 00:28:46 And Italian is the same style of really putting a spotlight on the ingredients rather than the preparation of it, like France would. There’s a lot of Italian restaurants and wine. One thing that frustrates me at times is that I don’t want to go to Japan to eat Italian food, even though it’s fantastic, but that’s sometimes if you go for the wine, bars will be Italian and a few do serve traditional Japanese food alongside wine, and that’s great, but I think it’s more a choice that people make. Do they want wine or do they want rice or steak? And yeah, you might see them. I think Sakai is definitely more traditional. So the old man in the countryside will be drinking it for sure. Younger people who really appreciate it and want to deep dive into the quality would do that. But look, I remember sitting in a bar. The guy, a wonderful guy in Sapporo, said, just give me a day’s notice. I’ll line up some wines that I know you haven’t had. He even looked at my Instagram.

Nick Rowan 00:29:40 So I teased that I had and said, you had the spring milk. I’ve got the autumn milk for you to try that. So it’s so detailed and he’s written books and Spanish wines. Lovely guy. And he said, look, I’ll give you a quick saké introduction and I’ve done saké masterclasses, I’ve done some courses. I just fundamentally I can’t get a hook that makes me understand it. I haven’t had that yet. And he said, look, this is from here. This saké is from here. And he said, the reason it’s done that way is because in the South, the soy sauce is much sweeter and fatter. And in this area, the soy sauce is leaner and a bit more umami. I’m like, okay, so saké goes better with those soy sauces. They’re both fermented so that they grow together, go together. Philosophy that made a bit of sense to me. Could I repeat that and understand it sitting in a bar? Not, I hope, in hell, but it was interesting and an enjoyable tasting experience.

Natalie MacLean 00:30:29 Yeah. Saki is called rice wine, and sometimes people confuse Saki with wine, but Saki is fermented and brewed. So just a quick overview. For those who may not be familiar its production Saki’s production is closer to beer than wine. Correct me any time here, but wine grapes have sugar in the juice that the yeast can convert or ferment directly into alcohol. Rice has starch, not sugar, so Saki requires a mold to convert the rice starch into sugar, so then the yeast can convert it into alcohol, just as barley for beer is brewed to release the sugars first to get it into alcohol. So you write that Saki was traditionally used in the rituals. As we said, it’s grown up with the sauce culture. It’s made also year round, from polished rice that can be stored while wine is tied to a single harvest and a specific patch of land. So how are Japanese wine producers borrowing or rejecting the Saki industry’s ideas about, say, terroir or regional identity, or the role of the producer? Are there any overlaps, or are they really quite separate?

Nick Rowan 00:31:40 I think they are quite separate.

Nick Rowan 00:31:41 Now it’s like people who know more about saké than me, but there are many will probably crucify me for getting this wrong. The terroir in Saki is different than grapes. A lot of it is to do where the water comes from, and the purity of the water and the minerals in the water. Also the Koji culture, the fungus that you refer to it there, they have a that breaks down the starch into sugar that then can transfer. But winemaking was hindered initially in the 1877. They were trying to make it like saké and it just didn’t work. The oxidative process, they just didn’t get it, didn’t treat it. And it was also until about the 1990s that people truly appreciated that winemaking starts in the field. I would say about 30% of all the wineries you look up the information as wine is agriculture, wine is nature. You know, you polish the rice and you start off with this thing that’s so processed that, yeah, certain types of rice I’m sure will make a difference. I’m sorry, saké lovers, but not in the same way as you’re going to tell a very strong winner from a Pinot noir or a Cabernet.

Nick Rowan 00:32:38 So when you’re right, it’s not that extent. But they now appreciate that it is agriculture. And there was a lot of friction because the big wineries couldn’t own land. They had to manage 200 300 contracts with individual grape growers to grow the grapes for them. And the grape growers just wanted a high yield and sell. Right. And they say, no, we want you to grow it this way. They’re going, oh, they want to grow that way. I want to sell more. You have to restructure the contracts. Try and and the old stubborn farmers wanted to do it their way. So took, yeah, 5 or 10 years of a lot of negotiation and training and, you know, they eventually got around to it. But yeah, I think now there’s some when we’re I think they understand enough about the what can be made in Japan and what works well that they’re happy to play around with different fermentation vessels, whether it’s concrete eggs, ceramic eggs, whether it’s they make it in plastic cubes, the Ibex International bulk containers that you’ll get even the top winemakers, they start fermentation in that and they if it gets too warm, they move it closer to the door.

Nick Rowan 00:33:36 If it gets too cold, they move it back inside and then they put it in an oak cast to finish. They’re now starting to use sort of misa nata, which is a Japanese species of oak, and maybe they would use more in saké. And sometimes they maybe say we take saké yeast and we use that to kick start the winemaking. And sometimes they do it with sakura yeast. They take a strain of that. So I think now that there’s a comfort level of knowing what Japanese wine can be and how to make it good. They’re then experimenting. Let’s see if we can bring back a bit of old tradition into this. Sure.

Natalie MacLean 00:34:06 That’s interesting. Now, the 1995 Best Sommelier of the world was Shinya Takasaki. It was a relatively unknown Japanese sommelier at the time, and you say it inspired manga storylines and renewed confidence. The series, called Drops of God, launched less than a decade later in 2004 and ran in the weekly manga magazine called morning from 2004 to 2014, with 44 volumes published, so the plot follows the son of a famous wine critic who has to compete with a rival to identify 13 real world wine bottles called the 12 Apostles and Drops of God in order to inherit his late father’s collection.

Natalie MacLean 00:34:52 And each volume, each of the magazine revolves around these real names real world wines with detailed tasting notes and food pairings woven into the storylines. Now, the the series had real impact on the wine trade when it featured a wine sales in Japan, South Korea and across Asia would spike overnight. Decanter and other trade magazines credit it with shifting Asian buying patterns toward Burgundy in particular. And then, of course, Apple in 2023 had the adaptation, which reframed the story around a French woman who discovers she’s the daughter of a legendary Japanese wine critic, and she has to compete with his Japanese protege to inherit the cellar. Now the show won an International Emmy for Best Drama Series. The source material is Japanese. The original cultural phenomenon is Japanese, but the TV adaptation pulled in from French and Western cultures as well. And wines. Do you think the series opened any doors for Japanese wine producers internationally, or did it just send more Japanese drinkers back to Burgundy and sort of French and Italian classics.

Nick Rowan 00:35:58 The manga, which I haven’t read.

Nick Rowan 00:36:00 It focused mainly on icons and the main Romano, Conte and the big guys. The Japanese are no exception. They love the big names and say, this is the number one best. And I know France and the US love this as well as I categorize everything from 1 to 100. A sommelier has become a competitive sport. I think I’ve seen a parody of this. Why is that? On one step above, I don’t understand, but it was really focused on the French and the old world classics. However, some Japanese wineries did appear, some because they were famous, some because maybe they were sponsored. I don’t know, but some are quite obscure ones that made it in, I think, maybe less than ten. I would hazard a guess. Japanese wines made it into the whole series. Just the ones that I came across when I was writing in the TV series, which I like to joke. Is the Japanese getting a late revenge for The Karate Kid? So if you know anything about martial arts and you watch The Karate Kid, you go, that’s not my style.

Nick Rowan 00:36:55 So when you watch the wine tasting, you’re like, it’s not quite how it’s done, but you know what? It’s it’s a good story. The the actors are good. The leads to her pronunciation. Japanese is amazing. His English is great as well. So look, it’s well made, a bit cheesy and over the top with the descriptors. No Japanese wines are featured. When you said that, to be honest, I hope they aren’t because the last thing the wine world needs is another like Chateau Montalcino that somehow is declared a winner. And then everyone goes out. The price shoots up. Local people can’t find it or afford it. Just keep them out. We’ll find them. So artificial flavors.

Natalie MacLean 00:37:35 So, Nick, have you discovered anything since you wrote the book that you’d add to a new edition? Now, I know you’re updating it because you can update it as it’s on demand, but is there anything you do, a major overhaul, or is it more just trying to keep up with new wineries as they emerge? That kind of thing?

Nick Rowan 00:37:51 Part of it is the new wineries.

Nick Rowan 00:37:53 Yeah, there’s always new things coming. There’s mistakes. I realized that if I had to pay a proofreader, I’d have never made a profit. I had. A small, personally funded, modest project, although with ambitious ambitions. Is that even the same word? Twice? Look, there’s always things that are changing. Nagano lost out to Hokkaido. It’s second place. Hokkaido overtook it in 2023. I hit publish two months later, it flipped back again. I’m like, oh no, it’s always going to be despite you. And that was driven mostly by labrusca grapes and hybrids because Japanese and Hokkaido were focusing more on the the, you know, Chardonnay corners by guilt that are working really well out there and less in these hybrids that were used before to cope with the climate or that they could grow. So that’s changed, just less production. It could change back, I don’t know. But what I am doing as well is that I can put things on my website and say, look, here’s some edits.

Nick Rowan 00:38:54 These guys have closed. They’ve opened. These guys have changed so I can. Certain things are going to put up for free just for the world to see certain things. I’m going to have a login area. If you own the book, you can log in and see this information that’s only for you because you own it. And then certain premium content, like the maps that I’ve spent months and months populating it, putting together, I’m going to have to try and recuperate some of the investment there.

Natalie MacLean 00:39:15 Sure, sure. Now, if the time has flown. So I want to get your three major takeaways. It could be things we talked about or things we didn’t talk about as they relate to Japanese wine. What would they be beyond? Of course taste widely, be curious, all that kind of stuff. What would be three takeaways? And it doesn’t actually have to be specific to Japanese wine. Some of them could be, but could be to more broadly wine itself. What would you three things you’d advise people.

Nick Rowan 00:39:45 To, you know, look widely. I would say don’t go trophy hunting, especially early on and just enjoy the variety and exploration and being curious, which I know you didn’t want me to say or focus on. And in Japan, I touched on it earlier. One is manage your expectations. I sat in a wine bar in Tokyo, and a couple of tourists came in from a culture that likes very strong flavors, and they’re gone. But look, these are all really weak. I want something like 15% strong tannins blowing my mind. I’m like, you’re in the wrong country, mate. You know China can achieve that. But I said, look, Japanese, they’re softer, structured, they’re more subtle wines. They’re not what you’re looking for. So I think just set your expectations. You don’t go to Alsace expecting to have Nebbiolo or Californian cabbage. That’s going to happen. So set your expectations and again, just enjoy it like you would sushi. Lots of small bits and variety and just explore it.

Nick Rowan 00:40:34 And being curious, which again is not what you want me to focus on, but I really think if you manage those expectations and treat it that way, rather than saying, I want to find out this big famous wine I know of and I’m going to bring it back because some people don’t enjoy that. I’ve heard people say I lacked structure and tannins. For me, I wanted more from it. Or maybe it was a bit funkier than people were expecting. Where our tastes are different, but expectations are always pushed up so high. I think it’s unfair on the winemakers and it’s unfair on people who really appreciate it. And I actually have a bit of stomach. My heart sinks when I see the trophy, Hunter said, look, I’ve got 20 bottles of this where Japanese producers will ration it. Wine bars can get no more than two bottles a year of some producers. They will not sell it by the bottle, but they’ll open it to serve by the glass because they believe everyone should have a chance and share it.

Nick Rowan 00:41:25 It’s not for keeping and boasting. So when I see people that have collected that, I was like, but that’s so far removed from what the producer wanted. One producer I know refuses to sell online, and if any of his distributors sell online, they’re cut off. That’s it. No more than two of any single bottle for any customer that comes in. You can buy a variety, but not too. So they’re really strict about it as well. And I really respect that out there as well. That’s great. I’ve gone on anything else.

Natalie MacLean 00:41:52 Is there anything else you wanted to mention that we haven’t covered?

Nick Rowan 00:41:55 Oh, I think we’ve covered a lot, but just get out there and enjoy them. I’d love to see them here. They’re going to be rare. They’re going to be expensive. Just the logistics, everything. It’s going to mean they’re hard to get. Get out there and explore. It’s never been easier. It’s never been cheaper to visit Japan. You can have fantastic meals for half the price that you could in the UK or the US with wine.

Nick Rowan 00:42:18 Okay, two of us here in a lovely place, fresh fruit, about eight courses we couldn’t finish with the whole selection of wines that they made. It was less than it was probably 160 USD or less. It was crazy, but for top notch. So yeah, obviously there’s a michelin restaurants, there’s the high end, but get into the countryside, get closer to the winemakers, speak to the people are so much more fun than just tackling Shibuya Crossing And taking off a michelin star.

Natalie MacLean 00:42:49 Yep I agree. All right. And how can people best get in touch with you? Find your books online. Find you online. What URLs would you like to share with us?

Nick Rowan 00:42:58 I they can find me. Wine fog is the website. It’s. I was lucky enough to be able to get the Instagram a social media accounts wine fog. Nick Rowan is my name associate with wine fog and the book cover. I can’t hide behind wine fog anymore so you can get me that way. Nick at Wine Fog com again, just click through my profile to your website and there’ll be myriad of ways to get in touch.

Nick Rowan 00:43:19 And yeah, I love hearing from people and whether it’s importers in the UK, whether it’s Japanese and Japan who are importing winery machinery or Japanese in Europe who are importing wines, we’ve been in discussion. They love the book, they’ve been able to find new customers and it’s all great feedback. So I just love that building that community.

Natalie MacLean 00:43:36 That’s terrific. Nick, thank you so much. I’ve thoroughly enjoyed this and I’ve learned so much. I need to go watch Drops of God to practice my pronunciations, of course, but this has been so much fun. I look forward to keeping in touch, and perhaps we can share a glass of Japanese wine in the future.

Nick Rowan 00:43:52 I do hope. Thank you very much.

Natalie MacLean 00:43:53 Okay. All right. Cheers.

Natalie MacLean 00:44:01 Well, there you have it. I hope you enjoyed our chat with Nick. Here are my takeaways. Number one, how have wineries helped rebuild communities devastated by natural disasters in Japan? As Nick explains, he remembers the tsunami that came through in 2001. They called it the great earthquake.

Natalie MacLean 00:44:19 It was brutal and there was only one winery at the time, but it was wiped away and everyone inside it disappeared. A lot of people have rebuilt since then to regenerate communities and wineries. A lot of them start as revitalization projects, and that’s what happened in Hokkaido. People thought, let’s try grape growing to bring in tourists. They don’t have to be fine wines, but it could bring in people who are curious to try them and revive the economy. There is one village, Nick says, that lost everything and they decided they were going to plant one grape vine for every person they lost from their community, which was 16,000 grape vines. And that makes the hair on the back of my neck stand up. It’s, chilling and very comforting at the same time. What a great memory. Two. Why do Japanese vineyards often grow grapes overhead on pergolas rather than the traditional trellises? Nick says with trellises, the vines grow up, then the branches come off and the grapes go up or they go down.

Natalie MacLean 00:45:26 Pergolas just flip that 90 degrees so grapes hang from the bottom. It’s like an umbrella that goes up, and then the grapes dangle down, and that allows the wind to blow through and control the humidity. Keep the grapes healthy and dry? The canopy or leaves protect it from direct sunlight and sometimes the rain, and sometimes they put a little bit of paper or wax over every single bunch to protect it from the rain. And that alone can take weeks or months. And number three, what makes Japan’s delicate Koshu wine a great match for fish and certain cheeses? In much of Japan, there is like 70 to 80% mountains. So they’ve got to grow rice and live on that. But in Hokkaido, there’s more pasture land, Nick explains. He also says that saké works better with cheese than wine does, although Koshu wine also works well because it has a very low iron content and low acidity. It is the high iron content in wine that makes fish taste really fishy or tinny or metallic. If you missed episode 82, go back and take a listen.

Natalie MacLean 00:46:35 I chat about China’s Thirsty Wine Dragon and Bordeaux Lust with author Suzanne Mustache. I’ll share a short clip with you now to whet your appetite.

Suzanne Mustacich 00:46:46 They use their 1855 classification to say, these are the top wines. These are the ones you dream of having, and maybe you can’t afford that, but you can afford the other 700 million bottles we produce in the meantime. It’s a great marketing plan. It works.

Natalie MacLean 00:47:04 It is like the top brands Chanel, Gucci, whatever. You might see the runway with the outfit you could never buy, but you can afford the scarf or the perfume, maybe.

Suzanne Mustacich 00:47:13 Yeah, and it works. They understand that there’s a desire for luxury goods. As soon as there’s a middle class, there’s a desire for a better lifestyle. And maybe you can’t afford the whole lifestyle. You can afford part of it. You can’t afford a vacation home, or even maybe the trip abroad. But you can buy that bottle of wine and you can live it for a moment.

Natalie MacLean 00:47:40 You won’t want to miss next week when we chat with Anne Weise.

Natalie MacLean 00:47:43 Then Justin, who will join us from her home in Transylvania to talk about Romanian wines. Do you know someone who would be interested in learning more about the wines of Japan or visiting those regions? Please let them know about this podcast. Email or text them now while you’re thinking about it. It’s easy to find the Unreserved Wine Talk podcast. Just tell them to search for that title or my name. Natalie McLean wine on YouTube, Apple Podcasts, Spotify, their favorite podcast app or they can listen to the show on my website at Natalie McLean podcast. Email me if you have a question or if you’d like to win one of six drinks books I have to give away. I’d also love to hear your thoughts on this episode, or if you’ve read my book or are listening to it. Email me at Natalie at Natalie mclean.com. In the show notes, you’ll find a link to take a free online food and wine pairing class with me called the five food and wine pairing Mistakes that can Ruin your dinner and how to fix them forever.

Natalie MacLean 00:48:38 At Natalie McLean. Com for class. And that’s all in the show notes at Natalie McLean 414. Thank you for taking the time to join me here. I hope something great is in your glass this week. Perhaps a steak paired with your favorite cheese?

Natalie McLean 00:49:03 You don’t want to miss one juicy episode of this podcast, especially the secret full bodied bonus episodes that I don’t announce on social media. So subscribe for free now at Natalie McLean. Meet me here next week. Cheers.

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