What’s the difference between a lean wine and one that’s thin? Maryse Chevriere on How to Sound Wine Smart

Natalie MacLean
Aug26th

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Introduction

What’s the difference between a wine that’s lean and one that’s thin? Why is asking for a “smooth” wine one of the least helpful ways to describe what you actually want? What’s the fastest way to learn more about wine without feeling intimidated?

In this episode of the Unreserved Wine Talk podcast, I’m chatting with Maryse Chevriere, author of the terrific new book, How to Sound Wine Smart.

You can find the wines we discussed here.

 

Giveaway

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Highlights

  • Why does swirling completely change the personality of some wines?
  • How can you use personal memories when describing wine?
  • Why are wine professionals so obsessed with high-acid wines?
  • What makes a wine lean rather than simply thin?
  • Why does Maryse think asking for a “smooth” wine isn’t enough to find the right bottle?
  • When does Brettanomyces add character to a wine versus being a flaw?
  • Can decanting Champagne actually improve it?
  • How does Maryse convince lifelong Chardonnay skeptics to give the grape another chance?
  • When does pairing red wine with fish work?
  • Why should you drink outside your comfort zone rather than stick to familiar grapes?
  • What’s the fastest way to learn more about wine without feeling intimidated?

 

Key Takeaways

  • What’s the difference between a wine that’s lean and one that’s thin?
    • N: The difference between lean and thin trips up a lot of people. Maybe give us a side-by-side comparison of a thin versus a lean wine.
    • M: Lean is more like that laser-like wine. Lean feels like it’s direct on your palate. It’s not filling your whole mouth. It kind of just is more direct. Whereas thin I think of as more of a flaw in the wine, or a fault. Where it just feels like it’s supposed to have substance and it doesn’t. It feels like it’s watered down, you know? It’s like its personality is just kind of tempered. If you were just reading the words as regular words, they sound very similar, like they could be describing something very similar. And they’re used very differently.
  • Why is asking for a “smooth” wine one of the least helpful ways to describe what you actually want?
    • N: Now you warn readers off the word or adjective smooth because it’s been overused into meaninglessness.
    • M: I think my beef with smooth is more just using it as a standalone word. Okay, so I would guess from that that you want a wine that’s not tannic, easy to drink. But like, what else? If you’re talking to somebody in a shop and you say, “I want a smooth wine,” maybe give me a price point. Tell me about the occasion that you’re going for. What’s the situation that you’re going to be drinking in? What food are you pairing it with? Do you want something that’s juicy or maybe more earthy? I think smooth is just too broad.
  • What’s the fastest way to learn more about wine without feeling intimidated?
    • Really importantly, don’t let the fear of sounding stupid stop you from participating or having an opinion or having a voice. That’s in life, but also with wine. Push yourself to drink outside of the box. Don’t just stick to the same grapes, the same regions, same producers. Try a grape you like from a different region. The more you drink, the more you know, the more fun you have. And then I think the other one would be… drink with, if you can, or talk about wine with people who know more than you do. If you are at a place that has a wine pairing, go for it. Then you’ll understand that person’s philosophy to pairings. If you can go to your wine shop and they have a producer or a rep there that can talk to you about the wines in a more exciting way than just the card on the shelf, that to me is the way to really get into it.

 

About Maryse Chevriere

Maryse Chevriere is a writer, wine professional, and illustrator living in Boston, Massachusetts. A certified sommelier, her career in wine has spanned across New York City, San Francisco, and Boston, where she has enjoyed roles as a retail consultant, restaurant wine director, and distribution sales representative. Her witty, whimsical “drunk doodles” have been published in print and online in Bon Appétit, Food & Wine, Wine Enthusiast, and more. Her printed work has appeared in restaurants and wine bars in New York City, Washington, DC, Boston, and London. In 2016, her Instagram @FreshCutGardenHose was honored with a prestigious James Beard Award in the category of humor. In 2020, her account was nominated as a finalist for a IACP Digital Media Award. Maryse is a fervent proponent of living life glass (at least) half full and believes that learning and talking about wine should be as accessible and fun as drinking it is.

 

Resources

 

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Transcript

Natalie MacLean 00:00:00 What’s the difference between a wine that’s lean and one that’s thin? Why is asking for a smooth wine one of the least helpful ways you can describe what you actually want to a sommelier? And what’s the fastest way to learn more about wine without feeling intimidated? In today’s episode, you’ll hear the stories and tips that answer those questions in part two of our chat with Maurice Chevrier, author of the terrific new book How to Sound Wine Smart. If you missed episode one from last week, go back and take a listen. After you finish this one, by the end of our conversation, you’ll also discover why swirling changes the personality of some wines. How to use personal memories when describing wine. Why wine professionals are so obsessed with high acid wines. When Brettanomyces adds character to wine, versus when it becomes a flaw, whether decanting champagne can actually improve it. Why lifelong Chardonnay skeptics should give the grape another chance when pairing red wine with fish actually works, and why you should drink outside your comfort zone rather than stick to familiar grapes.

Natalie MacLean 00:01:18 Do you have a thirst to learn about wine? Do you love stories about wonderfully obsessive people, hauntingly beautiful places, and amusingly awkward social situations? Oh, that’s the blend here on the Unreserved Wine Talk podcast. I’m your host, Natalie MacLean, and each week I share with you unfiltered conversations with celebrities in the wine world, as well as confessions from my own tipsy journey as I write my third book on this subject. I’m so glad you’re here. Now pass me that bottle, please, and let’s get started.

Natalie MacLean 00:02:01 Welcome to episode 404. So 404 always makes me think of the HTTP code for file not found on the internet. I go right back to my days at the supercomputer company I. But I hope you will find what you’re looking for in this episode. So what’s new in the drinks world this week? In fur, feathers, and fermentation, we’re celebrating fruit flies, the Romance rejection drinkers. A fascinating study published in the journal science revealed that male fruit flies cope with romantic rejection by turning to the bottle.

Natalie MacLean 00:02:34 When researchers paired male flies with females that had already mated and consistently spurned their advances, a drop in a specific brain signaling molecule called neuropeptide F drove the rejected males to actively choose alcohol spiked food over normal food 70% of the time. I don’t blame the little buggers. Effectively, the fruit flies use ethanol to stimulate the brain’s reward pathways as a chemical substitute for the euphoria of a successful courtship. Meanwhile, during the height of American prohibition in 1926, the United States federal government resorted to a lethal enforcement strategy to stop citizens from drinking illegal liquor. Authorities ordered industrial alcohol manufacturers to mix dangerous toxins like formaldehyde, chloroform, and methyl alcohol into their products to prevent bootleggers from stealing them for bootleg cocktails. The extreme policy resulted in widespread illnesses proving that the war on alcohol was a deadly serious matter. And for your weird but wonderful scientific fact this week, you don’t just feel carbonation. You actually taste it. The fizz in sparkling drinks isn’t merely bubbles tickling your tongue. Research has found that an enzyme called carbonic helps convert carbon dioxide into a signal detected by sour sensing taste cells.

Natalie MacLean 00:04:05 Your tongue has dedicated chemistry for knowing that somebody brought the bubbly and for your calendar this week. August 26th is National Cherry Popsicle Day and make your own luck day. Cherry Popsicle Day celebrates one of summer’s simplest frozen treats. The twin stick popsicle became popular during the Great Depression because one frozen tree could be split between two children or make your own luck. Day encourages small, deliberate actions that may shift things in your favor, such as taking a new route, making a useful introduction, or finally tackling that task, even avoiding including drinking that chardonnay that’s been sitting too long in your fridge. August 27th is National Potsdam Day Banana Lover’s Day, and just because day Butt’s Day cream are French baked custards traditionally served in small lidded porcelain cups. Bananas are botanically classified as berries, while strawberries aren’t. What because botany enjoys correcting the fruit bowl and feeling superior just because day encourages spontaneous acts of generosity or pleasure without needing an occasion. August 28th is National Red Wine Day and National Cherry Turnover Day. National Red Wine Day celebrates the long history and range of red grape varieties, just before the Northern Hemisphere’s main autumn harvest.

Natalie MacLean 00:05:33 Red wine gets most of its color from contact with grape skins, rather than from the juice itself. Cherry turnovers are folded pastries filled with fruit, giving them an impressive filling to effort ratio. August 29th is More herbs. Day, less salt. Day. National Chop Suey day and according to Hoyle Day, more herbs, less salt. Day encourages cooks to use fresh herbs, spices and citrus to build flavor. And I’d add in there alcohol too. Herbs also work well in cocktails because aroma contributes much of what we perceive as taste. Chop suey became a familiar North American Chinese restaurant dish in the late 19th and early 20th centuries, although its exact origin date remains debated. According to Hoyle, Day honours Edmund Hoyle, whose 18th century books codified the rules of card games such as whist, and helped make his name shorthand for playing by the rules. Don’t know what that has to do with drinks at all, but maybe you’re enjoying a cocktail with a good game of whist that sounds so British in 1800s anyhow.

Natalie MacLean 00:06:39 August 30th is National Toasted Marshmallow Day, National Mitai Day, and Frankenstein Day marshmallows, which I always pronounce as marshmallows, but their marshmallows were originally made using the sap from the marshmallow plant, although modern versions rely on gelatin. The Mai Tai was created in 1944 at Trader Vic’s restaurant in Oakland, California. A Tahitian guest reportedly praised it with the phrase that it inspired its name, meaning out of this world. Frankenstein Day honors Mary Shelley in her 1818 novel Frankenstein. Often described as an early work of science fiction because it examines creation, experimentation, and responsibility. And again, it’s a far reach with drinks. But I’d pair it with, I don’t know, a cocktail of your own mad mind creation. August 31st is National Trail Mix Day and Eat outside Day. Trail mix combines nuts, dried fruit, and other portable ingredients designed for eating on the move. Eat outside. Day recalls the long tradition of communal outdoor meals, including European harvest gatherings, where field workers ate together over the open sky, and my favorite, the long table beside the vineyard rows where people pass dishes and the wind flutters through and gives everything a magical feeling.

Natalie MacLean 00:08:07 And September 1st is National Cherry Popover Day. Cherry popovers rise because the steam inflates their egg rich batter rather than yeast. Back to today’s episode three of you will win a copy of Marie’s wonderful new book, How to Sound Wine Smart. If you’d like to win a copy, please email me and let me know you’d like to win. It doesn’t matter where you live, I’ll choose three winners randomly from those who contact me at Natalie at Natalie MacLean dot com. Keep them for yourself or give them as gifts. And if you’re reading the paperback or e-book or listening to the audiobook of my memoir, Wine Witch on Fire Rising from the Ashes of Divorce, defamation, and Drinking Too Much, a national bestseller and one of Amazon’s best books of the year. I’d love to hear from you at Nathalie Natalie MacLean. Com there’s also a terrific free guide for book clubs. I’ll put a link in the show notes to all retailers worldwide at Natalie MacLean 404. Okay, on with the show. Now you write that swirling wine is like waking up a genie in a bottle, which is I love that.

Natalie MacLean 00:09:16 Maybe tell us about a wine that was a totally different animal. Pre and post swirling I.

Maryse Chevriere 00:09:25 I think any wines that are especially like deductive or a little volatile, it helps to swirl to blow some of that stuff off. I remember older wines too. We had a wine at Christmas. I had a birth year vintage that I waited too long on, but it was like super close initially and over time, thankfully was able to open up a little bit more and actually showed its personality a bit. Insolence.

Natalie MacLean 00:09:56 Now. That’s right. That’s great. Now you give readers permission to use highly personal taste references when describing aromas. I know personally, I often use Band-Aids, and I know it’s not unique. I’ve heard it used before, but people know who know me go. Maybe it’s. But anyway. But what’s your reference of your own that maybe others find weird or is unique to you?

Maryse Chevriere 00:10:19 The one I tend to use that makes sense to me, that doesn’t make sense to other people is sticky.

Maryse Chevriere 00:10:25 When I get a smell that’s like a yeasty kind of smell that like doughy, just like fermenting. Something about that smell makes me think of sticky stickiness. But I don’t know that I would say that. And then somebody would fully understand where I was trying to go with it. But when I have a champagne like a really like, you know, yeasty kind of champagne, that’s usually one of the first words on my tasting sheet.

Natalie MacLean 00:10:48 Nice and sticky, good champagne. I like that my mine comes from hospital rooms or hospital halls, like Band aids. It’s usually I think Bordeaux would or something is going on there. Not quite sure what it is now. Pyroxene is the concept compound responsible for the green bell pepper notes and Cabernet franc. How do you illustrate that? Was it just big green peppers?

Maryse Chevriere 00:11:10 So I like to have as much as possible. Just this is the way my brain works, like pop culture references. So I have, for example, like drawings that may be reference or drawing that references Alice in Wonderland, Wizard of Oz, things like that.

Maryse Chevriere 00:11:24 James and the Giant Peach in the book. And so for this one, when I heard green, the first thing I thought of was it isn’t easy being green, which is a Kermit the Frog reference, but I, for copyright purposes, could not draw Kermit the Frog. So I have a bunch of the different kind of green flavors you can find in wines that have piercings, or have really prominent piercings, and a Kermit like frog at the top saying like a silly little quote.

Natalie MacLean 00:11:48 Kermit like, okay. And Garrigue, which I love, is a word, but always felt very vague and intimidating, but it’s that, at least the way I interpret it, that smoky, peppery, wild Mediterranean herb aroma like time and rosemary and that sort of thing. It really makes sense if you’ve stood on those hills or just smelled herbs in a supermarket. How did you illustrate that?

Maryse Chevriere 00:12:12 It’s one of my favorite drawings in the book, actually, because like I’m saying before, the drawings are mostly very stark and very simple, very white.

Maryse Chevriere 00:12:20 And for this one, I basically can show you actually have the page. It’s this it’s super immersive. So it’s my little guy just in a field that kind of feeling that you’re completely surrounded by those herbs that you’re out in nature. And I just like that it’s a full page and a bit of departure from the style.

Natalie MacLean 00:12:41 Love it. Very creative. Now you quote a wine described as riding in a giant seashell along a hot sandy beach next to water, of next to water, of stone, fruit and tropical music. My goodness, what grape was that, by the way?

Maryse Chevriere 00:12:56 That was a Viognier that that person was describing, which wow surprised me to the the tropical stone fruit, I can see. But the seashells, see each aspect would make me think more like an albino, maybe even. Sure, potentially if you’re only thinking about the seashell ness. But yeah, so it was one of those wild ones I was seeking out.

Natalie MacLean 00:13:22 I love that the more we stretch our imagination in different ways through words and illustrations, the I think the more capacity we have to name what we’re thinking, what we’re smelling, what we’re tasting, what we’re feeling.

Natalie MacLean 00:13:33 Yeah. Oh yeah. You release that with this book. You confess an affection for lanolin, which I love to that wax and wet wool note in Le Chenin blanc. When did you first encounter that wine or smell?

Maryse Chevriere 00:13:48 We had a wine on the list of terroir. That was a de minimum. One Russian, one Shannon, and they’re known for their wine. So it was an older vintage? Probably so I think a 90s vintage Shannon. And it just had that smell and I it was one of those things, again, being newer to wine at the time, were just didn’t think about those kinds of things existing and why and how cool it a grape can make that smell. And yeah, I love savory flavors. I always think are just some of the most fun ones to to discover. And wine.

Natalie MacLean 00:14:22 Yeah, absolutely. Now you write that wine pros tend to be shameless acid junkies praying at the altar of it. What does that mean for people who are not familiar with acid junkies?

Maryse Chevriere 00:14:34 But my professionals unanimously just love high acid wines.

Maryse Chevriere 00:14:39 I think part of that has.

Natalie MacLean 00:14:41 Like what would be an example like the Riesling.

Maryse Chevriere 00:14:43 Is a great example. Shannon is a great example. Pinot noir and Nebbiolo. I think there are wines that are great to pair with food, so I think that’s probably something that’s easy to gravitate towards. And also acidity is really refreshing, right? So if you’re drinking a lot, as you do in this job, it’s nice to have something that doesn’t feel like it’s just like heavy and weighing on your bringing you up. You want something to drink a lot of?

Natalie MacLean 00:15:06 Yeah, it’s almost the opposite of astringency from tannin. It’s like it makes your mouth water. So that’s why it’s food friendly too. So yeah. Cool acid. Yeah. Now you compare laser like acidity to Luke Skywalker’s lightsaber coming to life. So laser like acidity. How do you differentiate that? Or are you just getting poetic, laser like acidity versus scattered acidity or. I know I’m, like, really picking here, but I just wondered because I hear it all the time.

Natalie MacLean 00:15:36 Laser like acidity.

Maryse Chevriere 00:15:38 I think it’s become a popular word just because it does give you that easy visual. But I think wines that have that intense acidity do feel like they’re just cutting down your palate. It’s just like a flash across your tongue. And so I think that’s it’s a great word to help people understand that. I think it sounds cool.

Natalie MacLean 00:15:58 It does. But and the lightsaber is perfect metaphor for it. Now you also have punchy acidity in your book and you is, quote, Mike Tyson in your mouth, uppercuts and throwing jabs with lemon lime gloves on. I love that that’s lemon limes gum. Which wine recently delivered that one two combination for you? Was it a Riesling or some other type of wine?

Maryse Chevriere 00:16:18 For sure there could be, but I think recently I was hoping I was pouring some spring whites for an account, and we had a chocolate bar from the Basque Country, Spain, and that’s like, it’s almost like a seltzer, like a lemon lime seltzer. It’s like that light and effervescent and just citrus heavy.

Natalie MacLean 00:16:41 Now you warn readers off the word or adjective smooth because it’s been overused into meaninglessness. What word do you wish drinkers would use more instead?

Maryse Chevriere 00:16:50 My deepest smooth is more just using it as a standalone word. Okay, so I would guess that you want to wine that’s not tannic. Easy to drink. Okay. But like, what else? You know, if you’re talking to somebody in a shop and you say, I want to smooth wine, like maybe give me a price point, tell me about the occasion that you’re going for. What’s the situation that you’re going to be drinking in? What food are you pairing it with? Do you want something that’s juicy or maybe more earthy and just. And I think smooth is is just too it’s too broad.

Natalie MacLean 00:17:21 Yeah. No. It’s true. And now you I love this. You describe tannins as clinging to your palate like a desperately codependent ex. That is great. Tannins, of course, create that astringency, that mouth drying feeling like over steep tea or eating walnuts.

Natalie MacLean 00:17:38 Is. Was there a specific bottle that really gripped at you like a desperately codependent?

Maryse Chevriere 00:17:44 That’s definitely the first. Oh my. The times I’ve had gone to a tasting where there’s a bunch of barrels, they don’t really do it for you. Or even like a move. Like a bed space. Read like a Kindle. Read where it’s just like, oh, this is like grippy like that X or like chewy like it’s like in your mouth. And you gotta do something to release its grip.

Natalie MacLean 00:18:09 Yeah. That’s true. Now, the difference between lean and thin trips up. A lot of people maybe give us a side by side comparison of a thin versus a lean wine.

Maryse Chevriere 00:18:21 Lean is more like that laser like wine. Lean feels like it’s again, like direct on your palate. It’s not encompassing your. It’s not like filling your whole mouth. It just is more direct. Whereas thin I think of as more of a flaw in the wine or fall. Correct. Where it’s like it just feels like it’s supposed to have substance and it doesn’t.

Maryse Chevriere 00:18:44 It feels just like it’s watered down. It’s like it’s personality. It’s just tempered. But you sound. If you were just reading the words as regular words, they would certainly sound very similar. They could be describing something very similar in there.

Natalie MacLean 00:18:56 They do. Now, I love this. You frame wine personalities the way the sex and the city women framed friendships. So what’s the wine in your cellar or at the restaurant? That’s pure. Sarah Jessica Parker embodies her nice cellar.

Maryse Chevriere 00:19:10 I have actually have a wine from the Finger Lakes. So, Carrie, ultimate New York girly. So I think that would be a good representation for her. And it is a co ferment of perverts and Pinot noir. And it was like fermented in a concrete egg, all this cool stuff. So it’s like wow. Like she a little funky a little different, very much its own person, but still very stylish and cool.

Natalie MacLean 00:19:37 That’s great. Now you call glow. Glow. That’s the French onomatopoeic word for the sound of wine being poured.

Natalie MacLean 00:19:44 So cooler than the word crusher. Why is that?

Maryse Chevriere 00:19:47 Oh, I think for that, I was just saying cooler because it’s French. Just. I guess using your furniture makes you sound a little bit fancier. And definitely if you’re in any kind of like natural wine bar or shop, use that word or you will hear it used around you and you’ll fit right in.

Natalie MacLean 00:20:04 Ludlow is am I pronouncing that correctly?

Maryse Chevriere 00:20:07 Who would be blue? Blue?

Natalie MacLean 00:20:09 Okay. All right. I do want to be part of the cool kids. So I do know I have to know how to pronounce it. Glu. Glu. What is she saying? Glu glu glu glu. Okay. And then we have porch pounder. So how would that be different from crush and glue? Glue.

Maryse Chevriere 00:20:27 I mean it’s kind of splitting hairs. I think you could probably use them interchangeably. I think Porch pounder is more, I think the way I talk about it, because more just like it’s a wine, it’s great. It’s really easy to drink, but you’re not really focusing on the wine.

Maryse Chevriere 00:20:41 It’s just a wine that drinks easily. So like Pinot grape, any Pinot grigio on a 95 degree day, rosé on the patio with your girlfriends. That’s what I think of Boris. It’s a porch pounder, whereas cuckoo like you could have. You could apply that probably to more serious ones. Okay, okay.

Natalie MacLean 00:20:59 Good to know the distinctions here. Yeah. And then I’ve heard the word session about exactly, exactly to have it in one go session. Yeah.

Maryse Chevriere 00:21:07 Anyway yeah it’s definitely in that same wheelhouse.

Natalie MacLean 00:21:10 Now you describe hedonistic wines as having Roman Empire energy. What does that mean? Are they at the height of their powers and about to come apart? What’s going on with those?

Maryse Chevriere 00:21:20 I think to be honest, a little bit, I had the idea of the drawing that I wanted to do for that, but of just the Roman Symposium. Were drinking or enjoying the land, enjoying each other kind of debauchery, setting and basically hedonistic is just the wine that is over the top opulent, excessive.

Maryse Chevriere 00:21:43 I think of I got to go to a lunch hosted by Chateau de Kim, and it was like five different courses of Chateau de Kim So Taron, you’re like, okay, this is extra. I’m not mad at it, but this is a lot.

Natalie MacLean 00:21:54 Yeah. That’s great. Yeah, I can see, I can see very Roman Empire. Yeah, definitely the days before the fall when excess was the keyword. Now I love this. You say cork taint is the Joker to wines, Batman. What does that mean for you?

Maryse Chevriere 00:22:09 Oh, just it was just a, I think a again, like an easier, maybe pop culture reference of just what’s one of wine’s more most well known kind of foes. The, the fault that you.

Natalie MacLean 00:22:22 In the foil.

Maryse Chevriere 00:22:23 That you encounter probably most commonly in wine. It’s true.

Natalie MacLean 00:22:28 Yeah, yeah. And Brettanomyces also sometimes considered a fault. Also desired by some people. You right, can smell like a wine raised in a horse barn, rolling around in manure and sidling up to sweaty saddles, which is great, I love that.

Natalie MacLean 00:22:45 are you pro or against Brett? The cool kids call it Brett.

Maryse Chevriere 00:22:50 I’m pro and pro within reason. I’m not. I’m not going to. Just because something’s really outlandish or more extreme, I’m not going to say, oh, that’s amazing. It’s like it feels like that’s the only thing that’s really that wine is giving you where it’s like you’re not noticing anything else that, for me, can border into territory where it’s what’s that feels one note that’s not as exciting, but certainly with the right little bit, it can definitely add like a very pleasant funk.

Natalie MacLean 00:23:15 Yeah. And reduction, you say at its worst, smells like rotten eggs and garbage and burned rubber peeling off in the getaway car. Can those wines be saved with aerating them and decanting them?

Maryse Chevriere 00:23:28 Yeah, yeah, it certainly can help just to give it like it’s like a younger wine. You’re not trying to, like, decant for sediment. Just toss it in the decanter and give it a hard decant and just kind of just go to like a good essentially like a shaking, waking up kind of thing.

Maryse Chevriere 00:23:41 Sure. So we I’d say it’s always worth trying. That’s the thing with that kind of decanting things with like condition of wine, like, when do I Drink this bottle. At what age? It’s like there’s a lot. There’s not a there’s a lot of gray. There’s not a lot of black and white. And you have to get comfortable with experimenting. And I think that’s important too.

Natalie MacLean 00:24:01 Yeah. Now you write that the 1980s quote cold and want their Chardonnay description back, and that we were conditioned like Pavlov’s dogs to expect butter from this grape. So what how do you change a Chardonnays haters mind. There’s that whole thing A.B.C. anything but Chardonnay because it got so popular, so buttery and so fruit bombing or whatever. How do you talk to someone who say, oh no, I don’t drink Chardonnay.

Maryse Chevriere 00:24:28 I mean, I think my go to has always been to pour something like a Shibley.

Natalie MacLean 00:24:32 It’s from northern France, which is Chardonnay.

Maryse Chevriere 00:24:35 Exactly.

Natalie MacLean 00:24:36 It’s not.

Maryse Chevriere 00:24:36 Oak. Yeah, it’s a lean, very mineral driven kind of expression of Chardonnay.

Maryse Chevriere 00:24:43 And it’s the opposite of if you have in your mind the classic California like oaky butter bomb. It’s a great. Know what this is? Chardonnay to where you could do something from like Alto Adige, which they do Chardonnays as well. There’s other great examples from the Jura. Could be a cool one to just like, see, it’s because the grape itself is neutral. It’s really just taking on what it’s given, no other expression. So for sure.

Natalie MacLean 00:25:09 Yeah. Now your pairing chapter argues red wine with fish isn’t a crime. What’s the dish in bottle combination that would convert the most stubborn adherent to not doing that combination?

Maryse Chevriere 00:25:22 I think the classic example is probably something like a Pinot noir with a salmon.

Natalie MacLean 00:25:28 Why does it work?

Maryse Chevriere 00:25:29 You have a wine that’s higher in acidity, not very tannic, and the fish is a little bit fattier. So that combination can be really nice as well. And the wine has some really lovely, earthier notes to it, but also some great, like pinky like red fruit notes.

Maryse Chevriere 00:25:47 I think it just it can just really, really work well together.

Natalie MacLean 00:25:50 Cool. Now you suggest decanting champagne, which some drinkers would find heretical. What’s the. What’s the bottle of bubbles you decant without apology? Are there certain bottles you decant and not others? Would it champagne or other sparkling wines? I mean, where do you. How do you decide?

Maryse Chevriere 00:26:06 I think it’s not something I would do often, but I certainly think it’s fun to see what. Probably more, with an age champion, I wouldn’t do a prosecco for just a generic kind of prosecco because those lose their bubbles more quickly anyways. But yeah, like a serious like vintage champagne. It could be cool to see what that’s like with some incantation. Actually, the boss that had that Moroccan whorehouse tasting though. Yeah, one of the best things she ever taught me was to kind of let champagne go flat and taste the base wine, because the bubbles can be distracting. They’re lovely, but they can be distracting in a good way.

Maryse Chevriere 00:26:45 And so it can be easier to hide. Like a baseline. That’s maybe. That has some potential like problems with it. No problems with it. Just as great.

Natalie MacLean 00:26:55 It’s not as strong.

Maryse Chevriere 00:26:56 If you want to drink a champagne when it’s flat and that wine is still good, that’s the sign of a good champagne, was her theory. And I’ve always loved that.

Natalie MacLean 00:27:03 That’s an interesting take, I love that. All right, just some quick questions. In the museum of Marie Chevrier. Which three objects would be on the central display?

Maryse Chevriere 00:27:13 Oh, not an object, but my daughter. My daughter.

Natalie MacLean 00:27:17 Sure. This is what I created and I’m most proud of.

Maryse Chevriere 00:27:21 Yeah, a fresh mom.

Natalie MacLean 00:27:22 She’s only seven.

Maryse Chevriere 00:27:22 Months. Six months? Yeah. Oh my goodness, lady. Freshly discovering food who loves who is I think, going to be an asset because she’s already sucking on lemons and limes, which I’m very proud.

Natalie MacLean 00:27:34 Wow. That’s unusual. Is good for her. She’ll have a wide ranging palate.

Natalie MacLean 00:27:38 This for a baby to have that.

Maryse Chevriere 00:27:40 Yes.

Natalie MacLean 00:27:41 Oh it’s great.

Maryse Chevriere 00:27:42 Sweet, cheesy. My wedding ring. My husband is my best friend. Biggest supporter. Next. Nice. And then my James Beard. Honestly, that is my biggest. Yeah.

Natalie MacLean 00:27:51 That’s pretty prestigious.

Maryse Chevriere 00:27:53 That award is for humor, too. Which was so cool it wasn’t even going to board. It’s a category that doesn’t exist anymore. Wow.

Natalie MacLean 00:28:01 Do you know why they took it away? That sounds like a great category to have.

Maryse Chevriere 00:28:04 No, but I was just. It was just such the whole point of what I try to do, which is just make wine fun and accessible and not feel snobby. And so to have that kind of all come together in that way. It was really proud moment.

Natalie MacLean 00:28:16 That’s fantastic. Now tell us about your favorite childhood food and what you pair with it today. As an adult who loves wine.

Maryse Chevriere 00:28:23 Not to make me sound bougie, but I did love a lobster roll. Still love a lobster roll.

Maryse Chevriere 00:28:29 I probably would do okay. Some some champagne with that. Or my mom’s carbonara. I had we have we had a Vermintide. So that was actually really juicy and had some really nice kind of lush 3D notes to it. And I love like a salty and sweet combination for salty and fruity, I radiation. I’m doing my own fault here. Saying sweet when it’s not actually sweet, but something that’s fruity and salty. This is a great yeah good combo.

Natalie MacLean 00:28:54 That sounds great. And if you could share a bottle of wine with anyone outside the wine world, living or dead. Who would that be?

Maryse Chevriere 00:29:01 Oh, you, Nina Simone. Because I just love her music. And I just think she’s the coolest. Yeah, but if I was being honest, it would be Andy Cohen. He’s a he runs a channel, Bravo and reality.

Natalie MacLean 00:29:13 TV on channel.

Maryse Chevriere 00:29:14 Channel, basically. And it’s my escapism. And so I would just ply him with a 17% pre rot to, to get all the gossip.

Natalie MacLean 00:29:25 And.

Maryse Chevriere 00:29:26 Dumb.

Natalie MacLean 00:29:26 Shit behind the scenes. Oh that’s real. That’s great actually I love that. And if you could put up a billboard in downtown Boston what would it say?

Maryse Chevriere 00:29:37 Aside from my book, yes, I think it would be. Boston is a wonderful food scene. It has great talent here, but a lot of the Restaurants are so heavily either seafood or Italian, so I would want a billboard that says support and encourage people to eat outside of that box.

Natalie MacLean 00:29:55 But okay.

Maryse Chevriere 00:29:56 I would really love that.

Natalie MacLean 00:29:58 Yeah, and if a listener walks away from this conversation remembering only three things today, it could be from what we talked about or other things that you want to mention. Now, what three things would those be?

Maryse Chevriere 00:30:10 I think one, really importantly, don’t let the fear of sounding stupid stop you from participating or having an opinion or having a voice that’s in life, but also with wine. I think push yourself to drink outside of the box. Don’t just stick to the same grapes, the same regions, same producers.

Maryse Chevriere 00:30:33 Try a grape you like from a different region. The more you drink, the more you know, the more fun you have. And then I think the other one would be, and this is not if it doesn’t come across and it’s not your way. But drink with if you can, or talk about wine with people who know more than you do because you’re.

Natalie MacLean 00:30:52 Sure that’s like life to up your game.

Maryse Chevriere 00:30:54 Yeah. You really just get some more out of it. So if you were at a place that has a wine pairing and you can go for it, then you’ll understand that person’s philosophy as to pairings. If you can go to your wine shop and they have a producer or a rep there that can talk to you about the wines in a more exciting way than just like a the card on on the shelf. That to me is the way to like, really get into it.

Natalie MacLean 00:31:17 That’s great. Excellent advice as we wrap up our conversation. Marisa, is there anything you want to mention before we do?

Maryse Chevriere 00:31:24 Oh, no.

Maryse Chevriere 00:31:25 So I feel like we we covered a good amount here.

Natalie MacLean 00:31:27 Yeah. We did. It was great. Now we will be publishing this podcast episode and the video after your book is published. It’s July 14th. Is your pub date, I think. Yeah. So it’s a if you’re listening, watching this now Marie’s book is available, so go buy it either I’m assuming online, in bookstores, wherever books are sold.

Maryse Chevriere 00:31:51 Pre-order. You can go to the Simon and Schuster website and find it, but it’s on the big, big websites. But of course, if there are local bookstores you want to support, please do that.

Natalie MacLean 00:32:00 Yes, absolutely. This has been fantastic. I love again your creativity, your answers, your whimsical drawings, which I hope people will go and buy the book and see for themselves. So thank you so much for spending your time with us today.

Maryse Chevriere 00:32:14 I made so much fun, I appreciate it.

Natalie MacLean 00:32:15 All right. Cheers. Well, there you have it. I hope you enjoyed our chat with Marie.

Natalie MacLean 00:32:25 Here are my takeaways. Number one, what’s the difference between.

Natalie MacLean 00:32:28 A thin wine and a lean.

Natalie MacLean 00:32:29 One? Marie’s explains lean is like a laser like focused wine. It’s direct on your palate. It’s not filling your whole mouth. It’s just very direct. Whereas she thinks of thin as more of a flaw in wine. It just feels like it’s supposed to have substance and it doesn’t. It feels watered down or tastes watered down. Although the two terms sound similar, they really are used very differently in the wine world. Number two why is asking for a smooth wine? One of the least helpful ways you can describe what you actually want? Her beef with it, Murray says, is that people often use it as a standalone word, and it’s really hard to guess what that means other than okay, it’s not tannic, it’s easy to drink. But what else? You know, maybe give your sommelier or the liquor store staff a price point or the occasion the wine is for, or maybe the food pairing and maybe a couple of other descriptors like maybe juicy, earthy, whatever.

Natalie MacLean 00:33:34 And number three, what’s the fastest way to learn about wine without feeling intimidated? Murray’s emphasizes not to let the fear of sounding stupid to stop you from participating in learning about wine, or asking questions, or having it a voice that’s in life too, but also in wine, which of course is a microcosm for life. So push yourself to drink outside the box. Don’t just stick to the same grapes, regions and producers. The more you drink, the more you know and the more fun you’ll have. Of course, all in moderation. Also, try to talk about wine with people who know more than you do. If you’re at a restaurant that offers wine pairings, go for it. Talk to the some sommelier about the pairings. Similarly, chat up the staff in your wine shop. They really are passionate often and want to share their knowledge. If you missed episode 139, go back and take a listen. I chat about wine scores, pairings, and writing with Master of Wine Vanessa Conlon. I’ll share a short clip with you now to whet your appetite.

Natalie MacLean 00:34:40 Give them something.

Natalie MacLean 00:34:40 They understand a score.

Natalie MacLean 00:34:42 Because.

Natalie MacLean 00:34:42 We know that. And at first I resisted. But then I came over to his way of thinking, because that’s the way I feel I can be of greatest service, and that’s why I score wines in addition to those, I hope. Elegant extra tasting notes.

Vanessa Conlin 00:34:54 How would you recommend someone is trying to figure out which critic to align with or who to listen to? How should a consumer make that decision?

Natalie MacLean 00:35:03 I think it’s finding someone whose palette lines up with yours. Also someone who can guide you a little bit further, taking you out of your comfort zone. I think it comes down to palate tastes, but it can also be a preference for personality, like the way they write about wine or they make it interesting or fun. There’s just so much out there these days with the internet and social media and videos and everything else. I think there’s a critic for everyone these days. Everyone is a critic, but there’s so many ways to be guided.

Natalie MacLean 00:35:32 I think that’s an easy choice these days. You won’t want to miss next week when we chat with Master of Wine Elizabeth, Gaby and her son Ben Bernheim, who have co-authored Rosés of Southern France. And they’ll join us from Liz’s home in Provence. Do you know someone who would be interested in learning more about how to sound wine smart? Please let them know about this podcast. Email or text them now while you’re thinking about it. It’s really easy to find the Unreserved Wine Talk podcast. Just tell them to search for that title or my name Natalie MacLean wine on YouTube, Apple Podcasts, Spotify, their favorite podcast app or they can listen to the show on my website at Natalie MacLean. Email me if you have a tip, question, or would like to win one of seven drinks books I have to give away. I’d also love to hear your thoughts on this episode. I met Natalie at Natalie MacLean. Com. In the show notes, you’ll find a link to take a free online food and wine pairing class with me called the Five Wine and Food Pairing Mistakes That Can Ruin Your Dinner Forever and How to Fix Them Forever.

Natalie MacLean 00:36:41 At Natalie MacLean. Com for. And that is all. Everything in the show. Notes at Natalie MacLean. Com forward slash 404. Thank you for taking the time to join me here. I hope something great is in your glass this week. Perhaps a smooth, lean, juicy, medium bodied, bright, vivacious wine that pairs well with whatever you’re eating.

Natalie MacLean 00:37:13 You don’t want to miss one juicy episode of this podcast, especially the secret full bodied bonus episodes that I don’t announce on social media. So subscribe for free now at Natalie MacLean. Com forward slash meet me here next week. Cheers.

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