How Does The Solera System Give Every Glass Of Sherry Centuries Of History?

Natalie MacLean
Jul8th

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Introduction

How does the Solera system give every glass of sherry centuries of history? How does Sherry’s “second terroir” shape the wine just as much as the vineyard itself? Why should every great wine cellar have mature, dry Sherry?

In this episode of the Unreserved Wine Talk podcast, I’m chatting with Ben Howkins, who has just published a new book on Sherry.

You can find the wines we discussed here.

 

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Highlights

  • How did Ben win one of the wine world’s most prestigious scholarships with a single word?
  • Why does Ben still remember his very first glass of Fino Sherry more than 60 years later?
  • What makes the Solera system one of the most remarkable ageing methods in the wine world?
  • How can every bottle of Sherry contain traces of wines made generations ago?
  • Can the position of a single barrel inside a bodega really change the taste of the wine?
  • What makes old Amontillado sherry such a thrilling wine to taste?
  • Why do the chalky white soils of Jerez have so much in common with Champagne and southern England?
  • What are the key differences between the fortified wines Port and Sherry?
  • How did the aftermath of the Spanish Civil War shape Ben’s first impressions of Jerez?
  • What might you be surprised to discover about the world’s greatest Sherries?
  • What does “en rama” mean, and why are Sherry lovers so excited whenever they see it on a bottle?
  • Why is Palo Cortado considered the most mysterious style of Sherry?

 

Key Takeaways

  • How does the Solera system give every glass of sherry centuries of history?
    • It all changes when you actually go to Jerez or go to Andalucía or go to Sanlúcar – the three towns that make up the sherry triangle. And when you go there, you step inside these bodegas and you get this wonderful aroma of Flor. It’s a yeast which settles on the top of young wine and that’s why Fino and Manzanilla, for instance, are always light even though they could be 10 or 12 years old. Unlike Bordeaux, which you get new casks, new butts, every vintage year, they never changed their butts. I remember tasting in one bodega, the Hidalgo bodega in Sanlúcar de Barrameda, and we tasted Amontillado and Palo Cortado during the Peninsular War. That’s going back over 200 years. The bodega producer sent the same sherry to Napoleon’s army and the same sherry to Wellington’s army.
  • How does Sherry’s “second terroir” shape the wine just as much as the vineyard itself?
    • If you look at northern Europe, you get northern France being the most well-known vineyards where Champagne is produced. And you look at the southern part of Europe and you get to the Andalusia, in Spain, where sherry is produced. So they’ve got white soil. There’s the white soil from Champagne that goes under the channel and into the English vineyards. But what’s interesting is that Champagne can be still wine… it was up until about 100 years ago, but now, of course, it’s known as sparkling wine. So because the grapes and the soil weren’t that good in themselves, you had to kind of create something which made it really special. Same thing in sherry. Because the Palomino grape is quite gentle and soft, it doesn’t actually produce great wine by itself. So you do something with it. And again, over the centuries, out came Sherry, fortified. But Sherry is unique. Somehow it’s the airy space of the cathedral-like bodegas that does definitely give it… they call it the second terroir, the first terroir, obviously the soil, but then they call the second terroir is actually in the bodega. So it kind of gives you two terroir interactions.
  • Why should every great wine cellar have mature, dry Sherry?
    • People drink Sherry, as the cream sherries and then you get your Finos, your Tio Pepes and Manzanillas. Because they’re vintage attached, people don’t taste them in the same way as they taste new vintages, rather than wineries. I think the most surprising thing, which I love is, I didn’t realize Sherry was dry. When you look at Amontillado or Palo Cortado and that is actually bone dry. What I’m trying to do is to tell those few people of the world who are interested that if they have a great wine cellar, a great wine collector, it is not complete without some wonderful dry old sherry.

 

About Ben Howkins

Ben Howkins is widely regarded as the UK’s leading writer and expert on port and sherry. In 1963, he became the youngest recipient of the Vintners Scholarship, an experience that took him across Europe’s vineyards and helped shape his lifelong passion for wine education, particularly fortified and dessert wines. A prolific author, he has written extensively for both consumer and trade publications. His books include Rich, Rare & Red, Real Men Drink Port… and Ladies Do Too!, Sherry and Adventures in the Wine Trade.

He is a member of the Vintners’ Company and has lectured for the Wine & Spirit Education Trust, where he also served as a Trustee. An international wine judge and public speaker, he has led vineyard tours across Europe and South America and promoted wine globally, including in the USA and China. He is co-founder of the Royal Tokaji Wine Company and a key figure in reviving Tokaji Aszú’s global reputation.

 

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Transcript

Natalie MacLean 00:00:00 How does the solera system give every glass of sherry? Centuries of history. How does Sherry’s second terroir shape the wine just as much as the vineyard itself? And why should every great wine cellar have a mature, dry sherry? In today’s episode, you’ll hear the stories and tips that answer those questions in our chat with Ben Hawkins, who has just published a new book on Sherry. By the end of our conversation, you’ll also discover how Ben won one of the wine world’s most prestigious scholarships with a single word. Why? Ben still remembers his very first glass of Fino sherry more than 60 years later. How the position of a single barrel inside a winery can change the taste of the wine. What makes mature amontillado sherry such a thrilling wine to taste? The key difference is between the fortified wines, port and sherry. How the aftermath of the Spanish Civil War shaped Ben’s first impressions of Perez. What might surprise you about the world’s greatest cherries? What an Rahma means and why sherry lovers get so excited when they see it on a bottle, and why Palo Cortado is considered the most mysterious style of sherry.

Natalie MacLean 00:01:17 Welcome to episode 397.

Natalie MacLean 00:01:27 Do you have a thirst to learn about wine? Do you love stories about wonderfully obsessive people, hauntingly beautiful places, and amusingly awkward social situations? Well, that’s the blend here on the Unreserved Wine Talk podcast. I’m your host, Natalie MacLean, and each week I share with you unfiltered conversations with celebrities in the wine world, as well as confessions from my own tipsy journey as I write my third book on this subject. I’m so glad you’re here. Now pass me that bottle, please, and let’s get started. So what’s new.

Natalie MacLean 00:02:11 In the drinks world? Well, this week in fur, feathers in fermentation.

Natalie MacLean 00:02:14 A.

Natalie MacLean 00:02:15 New Zealand winery has a flock of miniature baby doll sheep to manage weed growth beneath its Marlborough vineyard rows, relying on the animal’s short stature to keep the grass trimmed without the risk of having them reach up to eat the ripening grapes. I’ve seen these sheep in Niagara and they are adorable, might even say adorable. They look like little clouds with peg legs.

Natalie MacLean 00:02:41 They’re so cute! Speaking of Niagara, there’s a proposed Niagara Region Wine Country Shuttle project, which would make wine touring easier for visitors and for staff who commute from the Big Smoke while sparing everyone the phrase designated driver at 1015 in the morning. I truly hope this happens. And for your weird but wonderful scientific fact, the reason a glass of vermouth or sambuca turns cloudy when you add water or ice isn’t a flaw. It’s a phenomenon called loosing. Not what you think, by the way. Anise, oils and other aromatic compounds dissolve cleanly in alcohol, but not in water. So the moment you dilute the drink, those oils separate out into thousands of microscopic droplets suspended in the liquid, scattering light and turning the whole glass milky. It’s the exact same physics behind why ouzo, absinthe and pastis all do that overcast trick. And for your food and drink calendar this week, July 8th, is National Chocolate with Almonds Day. My personal favorite. National Freezer Pop day, National Ice Cream Sundae day, and National Raspberry Day and National Blueberry Day.

Natalie MacLean 00:03:56 Woohoo! So very busy today. Almonds aren’t true nuts at all. They’re seeds tucked inside a fruit called a drupe, which is fruit with a hard pit or stone in the center that holds a single seed surrounded by a fleshy outer layer. Peaches, cherries, plums, and olives are also drupes. Raspberries aren’t true berries either. Oh the horrors! We’re all uncovering it today. They’re actually a cluster of tiny fruits called droplets, the small version with the same structure. Both raspberries and blackberries aren’t single fruits. Each little bump you see is its own miniature drupe, complete with its own tiny seed. And a whole cluster of these droplets fused together is what you’re biting into when you eat a berry. So just to confirm, because I know you’re as fanatic about details as I am a drupe. Is the whole fruit on something like a cherry? A drupe, lit is one small unit in a fruit that’s made of many. Meanwhile, blueberries have been part of life in North America for about 13,000 years.

Natalie MacLean 00:05:09 Actually, remember going to a blueberry festival with my mother when we drove around Nova Scotia for a month when I was about ten years old, and I still have a picture with me standing next to Mr. Blueberry, some poor guy with a giant blueberry head who must have been sweltering in that July heat. The freezer pop got its packaging back in the 1960s, swapping the wooden stick for a plastic sleeve that you squeeze instead of lick one Sunday. Origin story credits Chester Platt in Ithaca, New York, with topping vanilla ice cream with cherry syrup and a cherry back in 1892, though sundae historians argue about it the way wine people argue about terroir. July 9th is National Sugar Cookie Day, and the sugar cookie traces back to German Protestant settlers in Nazareth, Pennsylvania, in the mid 1700s, where it was also known as the Nazareth Cookie before Sugar Cookie became the catchier and more delicious name in its honor. Rim a glass of sparkling wine with sugar cookie crumbs instead of plain sugar. July 10th is National Pina Colada Day and World Kebab Day.

Natalie MacLean 00:06:20 The pina colada became Puerto Rico’s official national drink in 1978. One origin story credits bartender Raymond Marrero at the Caribe Hilton in 1954 with the final recipe after months of trial and error, although at least two other San Juan bartenders will tell you otherwise. July 11th is National Mojito Day, World rum day. National blueberry muffin day. National rainier cherry day. Gosh. That’s specific. And Japanese ramen day. The mojitos ancestors go back to the 16th century, when Sir Francis Drake’s crew mixed lime, mint and cane spirit to fight off scurvy and dysentery. Long before Hemingway made it famous in Havana. World Rum Day falls on the second Saturday of July every year, and Rainier Cherries were bred in 1952 by Harold Fogel at Washington State University. A cross between Bing and Van Cherries Japanese ramen date picked this date because the number seven looks like a ramen spoon, and the 11 looks like a pair of chopsticks. So why not try muddling your mojitos mint with unnecessary intensity like you’re settling an old score? I don’t know why, but why not pour a flight of white, aged and dark rum? July 12th is national pecan or pecan pie day.

Natalie MacLean 00:07:46 National Micheletti Day, international Kava Day and eat your jello day. Pecan pie’s roots traced to French settlers in New Orleans or New Orleans who learned about the pecan, a nut native only to North America from indigenous communities in that region. The McLarty name comes from the Mexican Spanish phrase Michaela salada, meaning my cold beer. Kava gets its own day two made using the traditional method in champagne, but in Spain’s Penedes region. Jell-O has been part of North American kitchens since the late 1890s. And when I was six years old, I used to make jello sandwiches with two slices of white bread. My microbiome has never recovered. July 13th is National French Fry Day, National Beef Tallow Day, and National Beans in Frank’s Day. French fries are widely believed to have started in Belgium, where during a hard freeze in 1680. Villagers who usually fried small fish from the river, cut potatoes into fish shapes instead, and fried those beef. Talos holiday landed here on purpose, since fries were traditionally cooked in rendered beef fat.

Natalie MacLean 00:09:00 Contrary to some very misguided senior official health advice that we’ve had lately, it is not a healthy cooking option. Beans and Franks, also called Beany Weenies, is a humble food with a long history at the family table. July 14th is National Grand Marnier Day, National Mac and Cheese Day, and Bastille Day. Grand Marnier was invented in 1880 by Louis Alexandre Marnier Le Pastel, who blended cognac with bitter orange. Legend has it that Cesar Ritz, founder of the Ritz Hotels, suggested the name, telling Le Postal it deserved a grand name for a grand liqueur. Bastille day marks the storming of the Bastille prison in Paris in 1789, and French style picnics with wine, cheese and bread are the traditional way to market. Mac and cheese didn’t originate at the white House, but the dish did appear there in the early 1800s, which helped cement its status in American kitchens. Float Grand Marnier on top of a margarita and call it a Cadillac Margarita. Pack a Bastille Day picnic with rosé, baguette and cheese and bring napkins so you look like you planned it.

Natalie MacLean 00:10:12 Meanwhile, on CTV’s Cp24 breakfast television show, we chatted about great drinks for watching the World Cup. Now, although Canada’s elimination match against Morocco was a heartbreaker. I’m so proud of their historic wins in this tournament and making it to the semifinals. I’m based in Ottawa, but I was in Toronto for this particular TV segment that I’m going to share with you now, and I was walking along Queen Street and seeing people out on the sidewalks, sitting with TV sets and in restaurants, and it felt so European in a way, and so festive. And the night before this segment, I had dinner at a bar where there were six large TV screens to watch the game against Qatar, and every time Canada scored a goal and that was six times, the whole restaurant roared and it was electric. It took me back to those euphoric butterfly feelings I had playing soccer when I was nine years old, on an all boys City League team, as there weren’t enough girls interested at the time. Go! Oh, what a rush.

Natalie MacLean 00:11:19 All right. The World Cup brings together 48 nations, and every match is a reason to celebrate. And we’re raising a glass for every goal and pairing the world’s most iconic drinks with the teams that love them. We’re going on a global tasting tour. No passport required. Who better to help us than our favorite drinks expert? Welcome back Natalie, great to be back with you. I’ve been warming up for this segment beside the bench. So let’s play ball. These drinks carry as much identity and pride as the teams themselves. Argentina drinks Malbec the way Canadians drink beer at a hockey game. Brazil’s Cape Marina is practically the national anthem, and Scotland single malt is a point of national honor. High and Canada. While we bring it all to the table and leave it all on the pitch. Let’s start with Poplar Grove Rosé from the Okanagan Valley in BC. Canada has so much to celebrate in this tournament. Poplar Grove Winery just released their 2025 rosé and it’s an amazing comeback story. The 2024 freeze devastated vineyards across B.C., and this rosé just took best in category and double gold at the Pacific Rim International Wine Competition.

Natalie MacLean 00:12:31 That’s not just a comeback, folks. That’s a triumphal return after you’ve been benched with multiple injuries for a year, and then you score a hat trick in your first match back. And before anyone asks, yes, real man, do drink pink. Did you notice the color of the Canadian men’s soccer team? Sneakers. Pink. Pure pink. Neon pink. The Poplar Grove Rosé is a premium dry rosé. It has these lovely wild strawberry and pink grapefruit and watermelon aromas with a squeeze of citrus zest on the finish. It’s crisp and elegant, and the kind of wine that makes a sunny patio feel like a stadium celebration. Wouldn’t this be amazing with fresh seafood or a simple summer salad? Next up, Poland gave the world Chopin, the composer, and the vodka. The maestro wrote the etudes. The vodka makes you feel like you’re playing one with your taste buds. The vodka makes you feel like it’s playing one on your taste buds. Chopin Vodka was founded in 1993, creating the world’s first super premium vodka.

Natalie MacLean 00:13:39 What makes Chopin extraordinary is that it’s Poland’s last family owned vodka brand. Their estate covers 17 acres near a small hamlet in eastern Poland, and every ingredient is grown within 20 miles. The water comes straight from an artisan spring beneath their own grounds, and three kilograms of potatoes going to every single bottle. You got to respect the heights of potato can scale with the right coaching. Potato vodka has a reputation for being heavy, but Chopin rewrites that story, that melody, entirely. It’s creamy and full bodied, with delicate notes of green apple and a whisper of vanilla on the finish. It’s smooth enough to sip, neat and complex enough to make you stop and think. It’s the vodka equivalent of the calm midfielder who sees the whole pitch while the rest of us are still looking for the TV remote, this would be stunning over ice and a plate of smoked salmon Bellini. Next up, the Glenmorangie original 12 year old from the Highlands of Scotland. Scotland has been making whisky for centuries and Glenmorangie has been doing it since 1843.

Natalie MacLean 00:14:51 The distillery sits in the Scottish Highlands.

Natalie MacLean 00:14:54 Scotland is free.

Natalie MacLean 00:14:55 Just watch Braveheart and they have the tallest stills in Scotland, roughly the height of an adult giraffe. That’s 19ft, by the way. And when your stills are this tall, only the lightest, most elegant vapours make it to the top and get distilled. Now that’s the perfect blend of engineering elegance and dinner party trivia. The genius behind the bottle is doctor Bill Lumsden. Glenmorangie is director of whisky creation. He first tasted Glenmorangie while he was studying for his PhD in yeast science. That’s very specific. He fell in love with it and helped shape the distillery’s modern direction. He’s been named Master Distiller of the year four times in the international Whisky competition. In 2024, Glenmorangie added two additional years of aging to this expression, bringing it to 12 years and deepening the complexity beautifully. 12 years in former bourbon barrels gives this whisky a sun ripened citrus, creamy vanilla and honey note on the nose, followed by layers of ripe peach, mandarin orange and gentle spice on the palate.

Natalie MacLean 00:16:08 The finish is long and elegant, with lingering fruit and a whisper of almond. It’s silky, medium bodied and welcoming enough for newcomers, while rewarding enough for seasoned Scotch lovers. yes, it took gold at both the World Whisky Awards and the San Francisco World Spirits Competition, which is like running the World Cup of whiskey. This would be gorgeous alongside seared duck in a citrus glaze. We move now to Tandoori Aspasia Spiced Rum from the Philippines. The Philippines is proudly represented here by tan Do I. SPC Spiced Rum. New to the Lcbo and its gorge. It was founded in 1854, which makes it the oldest rum producer in the world. In June is Philippine Heritage Month, so the timing couldn’t be better. This rum is crafted from a blend aged up to seven years in former bourbon barrels, and the spice profile reflects the Philippines rich tradition of tropical spices and sugar cane cultivation. This is not your standard Caribbean spiced rum. Tandoori brings an entirely different cultural perspective an Asian heritage, Filipino craftsmanship and warm climate agriculture.

Natalie MacLean 00:17:27 The nose is inviting with vanilla, caramel and cinnamon, and on the palate, warm baking spices layer over honey, soft tropical fruit and a touch of oak. The finish is long and gently warming. Best over ice, which opens the spiced notes beautifully. This rum would be perfect with grilled barbecue ribs or chicken skewers to complement the rums warm spice and caramel tones, or even grilled pineapple or mango to enhance the tropical fruit notes. We’re coming home to Canada with Claudie Soleil signature from the Similkameen Valley in British Columbia. It’s a Bordeaux style blend of Merlot, Cabernet Sauvignon, Cabernet Franc, Malbec and Petit Verdot. That’s a five player formation with structure, depth, power and finesse, and a head coach who knows what he’s doing since 2026 is the winery’s 20th anniversary. Winemaker Mike Clark is celebrating with a wine built to last decades. He uses wild, spontaneous fermentation, which means the wine is shaped by the natural microflora of the vineyard itself. The vines are organic and biodynamic, and every vintage tells the story of the Similkameen for a specific year.

Natalie MacLean 00:18:40 This wine took double gold at the SIP best of the Northwest Wine Competition, which is, of course, like winning the World Cup of Wine. Decant this for an hour before drinking, as this wine has a pregame routine that’ll make it a great match for hearty foods on the nose. Pencil shavings, raspberry, cedar and blackberry with pepper. The palette is lush and structured with soft tannins, carrying layers of ripe raspberry, blackberry, pomegranate, fig and baking spice. The finish is long, mineral and gorgeous, with wet stones and graphite pulling it all together. This wine is built for a long table, a long conversation, and a match that goes into extra time. It would be stunning with herb crusted rack of lamb. All right. And my final word of wisdom. Here’s to the home teams, the home bars and the bottles that remind us that national pride does indeed have a flavor. On Instagram, you can find me at Natalie MacLean. Wine. Come for the drinks. Stay for the extra time.

Natalie MacLean 00:19:43 Back to today’s episode. Two of you will win a copy of Ben’s wonderful new book on Sherry. If you’d like to win. Please email me and let me know you’d like to win. It doesn’t matter where you live, I’ll choose two winners randomly from those who contact me at Natalie at Natalie MacLean dot com. Keep them for yourself or give them as gifts. Congratulations to Scott Stevens from Suffolk, England, who has just won a copy of Why We Drink Too Much. The New Science of Alcohol by Doctor Charles Knowles. If you’d like to win one of six books I have to give away. Please email me and let me know. Hey, I’d like to win. And if you’re reading the paperback or e-book or listening to the audiobook of my memoir, Wine Witch on fire, rising from the ashes of divorce, defamation and drinking Too Much, a national bestseller in one of Amazon’s best books of the year. I’d love to hear from you at Natalie at Natalie MacLean dot com. There’s also a terrific free guide for book clubs.

Natalie MacLean 00:20:38 I’ll put a link in the show notes to all retailers worldwide at Natalie MacLean. Com forward slash 397. Okay, on with the show. Ben Hawkins is the UK’s leading writer and expert on both Port and Sherry. In 1963, he became the youngest recipient of the prestigious Vintner Scholarship and Experience that took him across Europe to visit its vineyards and helped shape his lifelong passion for wine education, particularly as it relates to sherry and port. He’s a prolific author and has written extensively for consumer and trade publications. His books include Rich, rare and Red, Real Men, Drink, Port and Ladies. Due to, thankfully, Sherry and Adventures in the Wine Trade. He is a member of the Vintners Company and has lectured for the Wine and Spirit Education Trust, where he has also served as a trustee, an international judge and public speaker, he has led vineyard tours across Europe and South America and promoted wine globally, including in the US and China. He is co-founder of the Royal Tokai Wine Company and a key figure in reviving Tokai Asia’s global reputation.

Natalie MacLean 00:21:57 He joins us now from his home in London. Welcome, Ben. We’re so glad you could join us here.

Ben Howkins 00:22:03 Thank you. Natalie. Very happy to be here.

Natalie MacLean 00:22:05 Oh, terrific. Now, you are the UK’s foremost writer on both Port and Sherry. We’re going to focus a bit more on Sherry today. But in fact, your journey into wine started with sherry. You were the youngest person, as I mentioned, ever awarded the very prestigious Vintner scholarship. And you write that you won the scholarship with a single word. Can you tell us about that situation, that scene?

Ben Howkins 00:22:28 Yes. It does sound rather odd, but remember, this is going back a long time. 1963. A lot happened that year, and I suddenly found myself sitting in the prestigious Vintners Hall or the Vintners Company, and with an array of masters of the company, past and present. And I was sitting there to see if I could get this coveted scholarship. Luckily, the master had a son who wanted to go to an American university.

Ben Howkins 00:22:56 I had just been had a year at Amherst in Massachusetts, and so we talked about education, not a word about wine at all. And suddenly some Darrow duffer, probably, like me, said, we’d better ask you a question about why. Do you know how the sonata system works in sherry? It is still a very difficult system for actual blending. Exactly what you said to explain. So I simply gripped both hands of both arms of my chair and said, yes, I do. And he was so stunned and surprised. He said, okay. And that was it. That was the only question I had. My answer was yes. No written paper. Nothing to do with one interview. It was just magic. Did you?

Natalie MacLean 00:23:38 That’s great. You were only 20 years old. Would you have been able to explain it at that time?

Ben Howkins 00:23:42 I was stumbled as I was stumbled out. It’s unusual in wine terms what they do, as we’ll discover later. But yes, exactly.

Natalie MacLean 00:23:50 Sure, sure.

Natalie MacLean 00:23:51 So just for those who are not familiar with the Spanish solera system, I’ll just give a quick overview and then you can jump in and correct me if I get any what I get incorrect wrong. It’s a fractional blending system where Sherry is aged in stacked rows of barrels, often called butts. Butts. When wine is drawn from the oldest barrels at the bottom for bottling, it’s replaced with slightly younger wine from the row above, which in turn is topped up with wine from the row above that, and so on. So it’s always the wine is shifting down. No Solara is ever completely emptied, so every bottle of sherry contains a trace of wine from the day the Solara was first started, meaning a bottle can carry the DNA of wines going back 1 or 2 centuries, which is amazing, but even better. I love in your book on Sherry that you mentioned James Bond, the film Diamonds Are Forever. The actor Sean Connery tells M, his handler that Sherry is, quote, an unusually, that the sherry they’re drinking is an unusually fine Solera, 51, I believe, and am retorts that there is no year for Sherry, and bond then explains he meant 1851, the original vintage on which the solera was based.

Natalie MacLean 00:25:07 And I just think that’s a gorgeously accurate, quietly pedantic piece of why knowledge embedded in a major film. Now you describe as well the solar system as a miracle of Sherry. Can you describe a moment when you tasted a wine and felt the magic of that solar system at work in the glass?

Ben Howkins 00:25:27 It all changes when you actually go to arrest or go to prison or go to Sanlucar, the three towns that make up the trade triangle. And when you go there, you step inside these bodegas and you get this wonderful aroma. Flor. And you. Yeah.

Natalie MacLean 00:25:44 What is Flor like? Maybe tell us.

Natalie MacLean 00:25:46 About the yeast.

Ben Howkins 00:25:47 It’s a yeast which settles on the top of young wine.

Natalie MacLean 00:25:51 So it’s a protective blanket?

Ben Howkins 00:25:53 Absolutely. And that’s why Fino and Manzanilla, for instance, are always light. Even though they could be ten, 12 years old, they still retained that very delicate light there. So there is this extraordinary feeling that they don’t. Unlike Bordeaux, when you get new casks, new butts, every vintage.

Ben Howkins 00:26:12 Yeah. They never changed their butts. They never changed the cars because it’s there. And so you get this wonderful sort of feeling of the classic occasion. I remember tasting in one bodega, the Hidalgo bodega in, in Sanlucar de Barrameda, and we tasted amontillado and apple cortado. And during the Peninsular War, that’s going back over 200 years. The bodega producer said the same sherry to Napoleon’s army and the same sherry to Wellington’s on both.

Natalie MacLean 00:26:45 Sides of.

Ben Howkins 00:26:46 The face. And so. Exactly, exactly. Now the Wellington brand has been upgraded to powder cortado and the Napoleon to Montero. So that just shows how it goes back in history there. So yes, you just get this wonderful feeling. They’re like cathedral sized bodegas. So there’s a sense of awe and height and space. And our it’s unlike any other wine producing region.

Natalie MacLean 00:27:10 Right. And they call them bodegas, these wineries, but the big open windows at the top and the sea air is blowing in?

Ben Howkins 00:27:16 Absolutely. And all above ground is very hot outside.

Ben Howkins 00:27:21 As you know, you’re very close to, oh, you’re on the Mediterranean and the southern end of Spain, just opposite Africa. And it’s very hot there as this lovely airy space. And you go down and do and then the capitals will dip. Is Valencia sort of cut through the floor and bring out the wine there. And there’s something very magical about drinking sherry from the bodega, more so, I think, than drinking wine from other wineries around the world.

Natalie MacLean 00:27:51 That sense of history. And you write that within each solera system, that sort of organization of barrels, stacked barrels, the positioning of each barrel, whether by the window or an archway or against a wall, can alter the wine’s character over time. So maybe give us an example of that. You tasted one. Say, that was by an archway and one that wasn’t. Or something like that.

Ben Howkins 00:28:16 Well, these things are awfully silly when we’re talking. I my office. There you are. And listeners are at home, hopefully having a sip of sherry or something.

Ben Howkins 00:28:25 But you do get this very strong feeling of history when you’re there and you can’t take it away. And so it’s just magical, I think. And with the wind, definitely, you get the two wins. You get the pungent wind coming from the Atlantic. That’s a dry wind. And you get the Levant coming from Africa. And so where it hits the bodega, the one coming, you remember you’ve got the Atlantic on one side, Mediterranean on the other. So where the wind does actually hit the cathedral. It does. And I have absolutely tasted the area about 50 bucks. I got one end in the middle at the end, exactly the same wine. And they did taste different. Now, could I tell the difference now? But there. But then I could. That’s that’s a magic of any tasting, any winery, isn’t it? I’ve actually just been able to really taste the difference. It’s down and down.

Natalie MacLean 00:29:18 Where you’re standing. Yeah, it really is a sensory in that implants itself so deeply inside yourself.

Natalie MacLean 00:29:25 Now, you mentioned you described tasting at Bodega Winery, Tradition Wines 40, 50, 100 years old and your notes say thoroughbred. What length. Winner’s enclosure. Thrill. Ring of powerful electricity. Extraordinary. I love those tasting notes. It can really feel your enthusiasm as opposed to like 16 fruit types.

Ben Howkins 00:29:45 I know I’ve been through all that and I’m glad you enjoyed that. It just came from my heart. I was talking about these particular cherries and I was asking, I was interested like two weeks ago. I was asking a friend of mine down there. Tell me more about it. And he said, really? It’s the reduction that one’s tasting. It’s not the acidity because the Parliament of Great doesn’t have much acidity. It’s very light, soft grape. But it’s a reduction as over the years in the various buts that what evaporates is the water. And so the water evaporates over the years, over ten, 20 or whatever it is, years. And so gradually the what’s left, the sort of alcohol becomes more reductive.

Ben Howkins 00:30:30 And so you’re tasting that reduction and it gets you in the back of your throat. And so it’s totally unlike the two leading brands, Bristol Cream or Tio Pepe when you taste these wonderful polka dots. And also that’s what you get. And to me it was just like Frankel or any major wonderful horse just striding out and just getting his nose over the finishing line. And that’s how I then developed this completely unconsciously, as it’s tasting it at that moment.

Natalie MacLean 00:31:04 Now, reduction. Sometimes we think of it as a fault reduced. Like sometimes people think of it as swampy or something. But in this sense, instance with Sherry, it’s a feature, a benefit. So what how would it’s.

Ben Howkins 00:31:17 It’s entirely positive. And I don’t ask why or how I don’t.

Natalie MacLean 00:31:21 I mean.

Ben Howkins 00:31:22 It just isn’t entirely positive. Other people I’m sure, have other ideas.

Natalie MacLean 00:31:26 So maybe reduced means just more concentrated more, but in.

Natalie MacLean 00:31:30 This.

Ben Howkins 00:31:30 Case it means more concentrated. Then there is a taste of pure purity. It is not impure at all.

Ben Howkins 00:31:37 Sure, people have a view on that, but basically that’s the closest I’ve got to describing that kind of unctuous taste that you’re getting your mouth when you taste these lovely dry cherries.

Natalie MacLean 00:31:46 Now you describe the soil of Hades or sherry as sublime, chalky, able to absorb up to 34% of its weight in water, which is remarkable. And you explain that in the summer, this same white soil reflects the sun’s rays onto the underside of the grape bunches, so it’s warming and ripening them. And you trace that same chalk seam from hares across the floor of the English Channel to the white cliffs of Dover, into the wine growing counties of England, Kent and Sussex. I’m sure part of it is also champagne’s white soils. What plays more, or which one plays more of an important role in shaping Sherry’s character? Is it the soil or the solera system, or both?

Ben Howkins 00:32:31 It’s a cop out because it’s a bit of everything. But just to be clear on this is that if you look at Europe and northern Europe, you get the northern France being a sort of most well known vineyards in northern France, where champagne is produced.

Ben Howkins 00:32:47 And you look at the southern part of Europe and you get to Andalusia in Spain, where Sherry is produced, saying that because white soil says the white soil from champagne that goes under the channel more and it’s the English vineyards. But what’s interesting is that Is it champagne? Can be still. Wine was up until about 100 years ago, but now, of course, it’s more known as sparkling wine. So because the grapes of the soil weren’t that good of themselves, you had to create something which actually made it really special. Champagne. Same thing as sherry is that because of Palomino, grape is quite gentle and soft. Doesn’t actually produce great wine by itself. You should do something with it. And again, over the centuries, out came Sherry fortified the sherry. But Sherry is unique, I really think. Well, they’ve got the wonderful deep cellars in champagne and all the rest of that, but somehow it’s the airy spaces of the cathedral like bodegas that does definitely give it. They call it the second terroir, the first terroir of the soil.

Ben Howkins 00:33:48 But the inner ethic or the second terroir is actually in the bodega. Second, to terroir interactions, if that’s okay, it’s completely barmy.

Natalie MacLean 00:33:59 Yeah. No. that’s great. And like this is very high level. But of course port and Sherry are both fortified wines, meaning there was more grape brandy or something sweet to get the higher alcohol level. Table wines clock in at about anywhere from 12 to 14% on average, but sherry and porter up toward the 19 range. So what’s the primary difference with Sherry and Port in terms of when the sugar is added, or grape brandy, and when fermentation stops?

Ben Howkins 00:34:28 The grape brandy is not sweet. It is natural grape brandy, so it’s dry. It’s a natural.

Natalie MacLean 00:34:34 Kick.

Ben Howkins 00:34:35 What you do in port, you stop the fermentation sooner, and that retains the sweetness in the master, which becomes the wine there. So you had 20% of bottle port is in fact grape brandy. So you stop the fermentation. Bingo. That’s it. Then the rest. It ferments naturally to about 12, 13.

Ben Howkins 00:34:53 And then at 15, that’s where the manzanilla stop And when the floor goes away, then it gets oxidized. Then you add more great brandy to it, up to about 8090 degrees there. So one is when you stop the fermentation as in port, and then add the grape brandy and in show you you ferment out completely because obviously it’s sweet. Exactly. Yeah.

Natalie MacLean 00:35:19 Okay. Got it. All right. So part of winning the Vintners Scholarship was a trip through Europe to visit some of the finest vineyards in, as you described, the wineries or bodegas, as we’ve already talked about, is vast, cathedral like edifices, open windows, letting in the cool ocean breezes. You also saw the loss mulattos, the mutilated Civil War veterans still in uniform. How did you feel seeing that image on the streets? 25 years after the civil war in Spain had ended? Alongside of these Spain’s great luxury wines.

Ben Howkins 00:35:51 You put it very well a long time ago. 60 years ago. And less has changed. But what hasn’t changed is this wonderful, noble family feeling of head of Thanos who make up the great sherry companies and much else as well.

Ben Howkins 00:36:08 Most have got titles. They all speak English with a wonderful accent and from the back of their throats like this.

Natalie MacLean 00:36:15 They all wrote like this.

Ben Howkins 00:36:16 And it’s very elegant and very elegant. And lots of friends of mine who talk like this. Absolutely. And that’s wonderful. So the sherry is royalty, if you, like, are still there. Now, the Gonzalez bias may lead, but in those days, you absolute mood lords were they got one leg, one arm. We didn’t really appreciate what they’d been through. We were 19, 20 years old when we all met under so but it was looking back. It was the result of history. That’s what they were. They didn’t beg so much, but they helped you park your car when you didn’t need your car being parked. They still do. They stayed somewhere. They would definitely sort of help you with that crutch and say we then gave them a few placentas. So it was. It was definitely those days. But then say it was say it was London.

Ben Howkins 00:37:03 All these cities really pulverized by the war? Yeah, but there was a great contrast. Yes, of course, it was huge contrast.

Natalie MacLean 00:37:10 Especially for you as a 20 year old back then. Today, what do you think is the most misused tasting descriptor when people try to describe sherry wines, what is it that you think is?

Ben Howkins 00:37:21 I think what’s lucky if people actually taste cherry wines?

Natalie MacLean 00:37:23 Okay, let’s get to the tasting first.

Ben Howkins 00:37:26 People drink sherry as they drink. Really? The majority as the cream share is Bristol cream or Crawford or lighter cream share, which I helped evolve. And then you get your nose, your BP and liners there. So people, because they’ve vintage attached people just don’t sort of taste them in the same way as they taste new vintages rather than wineries. So I think the most surprising thing that I love is, good Lord, I didn’t realize Sherry was dry. When you look at a Montero or polyketide that I’ve got here and that is actually bone dry, and so all these shows are bone dry.

Ben Howkins 00:38:06 And so that’s who we are. And what we’re trying to do is to tell those few people of the world who are interested that if they have a great wine cellar and a great wine collector, it is not complete without some wonderful dry old sherry.

Natalie MacLean 00:38:24 Researching this and your book may convinced me to get back to Sherry, which I get to do right after we talk.

Ben Howkins 00:38:30 I’ve got a glass visit.

Natalie MacLean 00:38:32 Oh, good to represent there. So before we dive further, paint us a visual map of where Spain is on the European map. For those who are fuzzy about this, maybe the bordering countries and where the Sherry region is within Spain. You mentioned a triangle, but let’s just situate where we’re talking about.

Ben Howkins 00:38:48 Okay, so tomorrow I’m driving down through France and staying with some friends north of Pyrenees. So if you can picture France and the Pyrenees and then you’ve got this sort of square peninsula, the Iberian Peninsula, and that is Spain, and then Portugal is occupied sort of one tenth of the size or sixth of the size.

Ben Howkins 00:39:09 On the I was east, west, middle up on the western side there. So that’s where Spain, Madrid’s in the middle. Unusual for a capital city. It’s not by the sea on the river. It’s actually right in the middle of Spain. Andalucia is the most southerly province, and Lucia is where the sherry triangle is, which is called a sherry triangle because it’s legally where sherry can come from. You’ve got her to the north within about ten miles, 15 miles. And then Sanlucar de Barrameda on the coast, one for fish restaurants now and then Puerta Santa Maria, also on the coast. So that’s where the triangle is. They’re up from Gibraltar and it’s inland from the Atlantic.

Natalie MacLean 00:39:54 Okay. And for those who are listening, we keep saying Harrah’s or like it’s JEREZ head as there’s no J like Jose. It’s not Jose.

Ben Howkins 00:40:05 Exactly. Correct. Yes.

Natalie MacLean 00:40:07 Yes. And they say it like a t h on the end instead of the Z. Yeah.

Ben Howkins 00:40:11 Yes.

Natalie MacLean 00:40:12 Okay. Okay.

Ben Howkins 00:40:13 Because the full title you think is as big as a village.

Ben Howkins 00:40:17 It’s a city. And because it was one of the six, 7 or 8 towns that helped keep the moors sucks who were coming north. So that was a great. So it was status of city and de la frontera. The rest of the frontier and the various other hilltop towns or other hilltop towns who also have Del Frontera after her name, though. So there’s one really attractive part of the world. You must go there. Have you been.

Natalie MacLean 00:40:49 There? Oh, yes, no I haven’t. It’s on my top of my list, please.

Ben Howkins 00:40:54 Okay, that’s a date. That’s a.

Natalie MacLean 00:40:56 Date. I’ll meet you there. And so, how large is the sherry region compared to, say, rioja and production wise? To. What is it?

Ben Howkins 00:41:05 Oh, gosh. Rioja in the north is about ten times bigger than the rest in the south. And this is the story of Sherry. Is that until the 1960s? The hectares, I’ll just say hectares, if I may, was about 7000 hectares.

Ben Howkins 00:41:24 Just on a 20,000 acres. Yes. And then, due to this extraordinary man who might talk about later, sherry volumes grew and he planted a further 15,000 hectares. That’s about 40,000 acres, which have now been scrubbed up over now about 7000 hectares. So that’s that’s where we are. So relatively small amount, but it’s a very fertile piece of land. And so now a lot of the farmers were able. Once they saw that there’s no money in sherry, pull up all the vines and planted crops and they actually get two crops, two tomato crops to cabbage crops a year.

Natalie MacLean 00:42:13 Okay.

Ben Howkins 00:42:14 So it’s quite profitable.

Natalie MacLean 00:42:16 They can get more out of tomato crops than they can by selling wine. Yeah. Once a year.

Ben Howkins 00:42:21 Okay. Yeah. All right.

Natalie MacLean 00:42:22 I’m afraid we’re going to. We’re going to talk about the price of Sherry in a bit, but. So let’s just do a quick overview of the six styles of sherry for those who are not familiar, as you said, all made from the palomino grape in southern Spain, ranging from bone dry to intensely sweet.

Natalie MacLean 00:42:39 The lightest and driest are manzanilla from Sanlucar de Barometer that you mentioned, with its distinctive salty sea breeze character and fino from Hades. Moving up in richness and oxidative character are amontillado, which is nutty and amber colored, and the rare and mysterious Palo Cortado, which combines the crispness of amontillado with the fuller body of an Oloroso oloroso itself, which is dark and fragrant and robustly dry, though often blended with sweet wines to make a creme sherry. And then at the sweet end, we sit. Pedro X-Men is oh, I can never get this.

Ben Howkins 00:43:16 X-Men is Pedro Pedro Jimenez.

Natalie MacLean 00:43:19 Pedro Jimenez Jimenez is the culprit.

Ben Howkins 00:43:22 Much easier.

Natalie MacLean 00:43:23 Hammond is made from sun dried grapes, which you described as a celestial treacle. I love that intensely dark, viscous raisin wine that is as close to liquid dessert as wine gets. So let’s start with the lighter style the phenols. You arrived in Harrah’s on August 14th, 1963, within minutes of meeting the owners of the winery. I think it was Innocenti. You were handed a glass of their fino, and you write that it’s still your yardstick for Fino today.

Natalie MacLean 00:43:52 What was it about that wine that transfixed itself in your memory?

Ben Howkins 00:43:56 It sounds silly, but I still remember at that moment it was the innocent. And the great thing is that they’ve been brought up under a different ownership now is they’ve still kept the label, they’ve still kept the brand name. And there’s something very when you haven’t really been at home in England, we drank South African cherries or we drank a sweet chariot home, and it just was kind of there. It was just whatever it offered, whatever he asked for. So I’d never tasted anything quite so different and so refreshing. And I find now I’m not involved financially or in any sherry company, but I just get I just feel I have more pleasure now in just enjoying a glass of fino or manzanilla instead of white wine. I just find slightly more to it. Okay, slight to my alcohol 50% as opposed to 1314, sometimes so marginal yesterday. And I just find that it just suits my palate. And so it just stuck in my mind and memory.

Ben Howkins 00:44:59 This wonderful thing called Fino. Little did I know then that I get involved in a bigger way and then write a book about it, for goodness sakes, 60 years later.

Natalie MacLean 00:45:09 You never know where that first taste is going to take you. Yeah, absolutely. Now you write that the floor, which we’ve mentioned is a naturally occurring film of yeast that spontaneously develops over the surface of sherry in the barrel, forms a protective layer and gives fino and manzanilla. There a distinctive character. Describe the aromas of floors that waft in to your nose when you’re entering the bodega. What does it and what does that tell you about the wines character?

Ben Howkins 00:45:36 It was a very good question. And which means that I’m not trying to answer it as it is in the RV. Very good question. I’m glad you asked that. What do you think?

Natalie MacLean 00:45:45 But you can’t do your exam tricks.

Ben Howkins 00:45:49 So there’s something bready. Yes, but it doesn’t. Nothing that I can find in normal explanation terms describes it in a way. I’ve been thinking about it.

Ben Howkins 00:46:02 It’s like walking into a cathedral and just getting a sense of kind of, I don’t know, respect.

Natalie MacLean 00:46:11 And are.

Ben Howkins 00:46:13 All. But there’s more to that because obviously the senses smell so good. So it says, I like getting into walking in and not and seeing everything being clear or going through some kind of fog. And that fog is actually an attractive fog and it gets you. And that, of course, is why you get this and Rama craze now going on. Rama and Rama.

Natalie MacLean 00:46:36 What is.

Ben Howkins 00:46:36 That? This has just been the last 20 years, what they’ve been doing. And I’ll try and be brief about this, but what they were doing with the fino manzanilla, they really had to filter it and almost to keep it stable for a long time on the shelves in far flung parts of the world. So it was almost becoming anodyne, the taste of Fino Marnier and said England Gonzalez bias, I think. And they said, this is ridiculous. We know what people are buying as fino or manzanilla is not what you actually get in your cask, in your butt, in the bodega.

Ben Howkins 00:47:11 So rather than flying out to a wreath, which would take, they calculated about 50 jumbo jets. They said, look, let’s just try Sierra, where the floor is at its thickest and strongest kind of influence. Let’s bottle this wine without filtration, without stabilization, and that therefore traps more of the floor taste in the bottle. Okay, so now a lot of bodegas do in Rome anyway, and they don’t sanitize the product. But in Romania, if you see a rama on the bottle, buy it. Cost recovery extra bucks. But it is worth it because you’re getting that much more taste or extra leaves. The bodega and rama. It’s a difficult way to translate. It means raw. Basically, it’s a branch and rama, it’s a branch. I don’t quite know why it’s called in Rama, but it is in Rama. And so they realize they’re losing what they had in terms of that wonderful taste, because it wasn’t there in the bottle, in wherever you were drinking it. So it’s a rama.

Natalie MacLean 00:48:21 Okay, I’ll look for that. It’s almost like the floor has I don’t know, maybe it’s just imparting more of that umami character of savory ness and deliciousness in addition to distinctive aromas. But now I’m really intrigued. Yeah. Good. Okay. Now, you describe manzanilla as having a whiff of a sea breeze and and sophisticated white wines with a nautical attitude. Love that. You explain that the proximity of the sea affects the bodega character. Of course. And then you describe the amontillado as the most satisfying thoroughbred of a wine, and say that it is ideal when the nights get longer. What’s the difference in both taste and appearance between a true aged amontillado and the younger medium, Sherry’s, that are often labeled amontillado?

Ben Howkins 00:49:09 You get a derivative Harris on kind of rules and regulations here, but if it’s a true Madeira, it’ll say Amontillado on the label. And if it has got a slightly sweetened aspect, more of a moscatel in it to sweetened up, then it’ll be called medium, which is an official term from the consecutive regular order.

Ben Howkins 00:49:35 And it’s still like it turned out 20% of output is medium. So if you’re looking for the real thing, don’t buy medium.

Natalie MacLean 00:49:44 Okay. Oh, all these secret insider tips. That’s great.

Ben Howkins 00:49:47 If you’re looking for something you need to worry about too much. You just want something sweet. Then by medium, it’ll be. It’ll also be slightly cheaper.

Natalie MacLean 00:49:55 Okay. And then you write that the Palo Cortado is the mystery sherry borne of divine intervention and sheer blending genius, and that only about 1% of all grapes pressed for sherry ever evolved to this style. You enjoyed a glass recently with your former boss at Croft Winery, where you both bottled it in the late 1970s, and you describe it as deliciously quirky, and note that it was still totally bone dry over 40 years later. What does this category smell and taste like?

Ben Howkins 00:50:27 I can bring you right up to date on that. I did have a glass of cortado with my ex boss. I also had a glass with another friend of mine, Hugh Johnson, the wine writer.

Natalie MacLean 00:50:39 Yes. Wine. Atlas.

Ben Howkins 00:50:41 The wine. Atlas. A friend of mine. Yesterday for lunch, we had a glass of pollo cortado each. I had to, but it’s without taking words out of his mouth. It’s really the only sherry that he drinks regularly. Now, I’m saying that because that means that Hugh’s tasted so many different wines all over the world, has a view on things, but also is quite difficult to explain. Why get involved? These wines are difficult to explain. I just don’t know because.

Natalie MacLean 00:51:09 It’s more work than the efforts worth.

Ben Howkins 00:51:11 Asking with Porter for pie or sherry that none of them are straightforward wines. It’s so annoying. But there we are. So they really don’t know the genuine part, though. If the capital is going down a row of 20 or 30 cars and takes each one regular and one cask will for some reason just have not taken off from one direction or another. Can I tell the difference? Sitting now here, talking to you know. No way could I tell the difference in the bodega? Yes, I probably could.

Ben Howkins 00:51:42 And so you get this kind of. It’s more dimensional than an amontillado. It’s got another kind of dimension which gives it more body in a way, and yet more elegant. It’s unique. Everything. Nothing is unique. But I would say is that if you want to give somebody a sherry, a bottle of sherry or a fine wine, which these wines are, then give them a bottle of bottle cortado. It’s like choosing the brand of champagne, which, you know, that is going to import the right kind of brand feelings towards that person. Ave given a B, you’ve got to. I won’t get any brands of champagne, but you all know brand champagne and some are what you might call excessive. Some are like not quite got there. Some are middling and some are just really those ones you really want to go on to aspire to. And in terms of one of the six blends that you’re talking about, say it’s not a brand as such, but it’s a blend. Pochettino would occupy the same position as prestige.

Natalie MacLean 00:52:55 Champagnes.

Ben Howkins 00:52:56 As your prestige champagne.

Natalie MacLean 00:52:57 Yeah. And is it. I would just expect it’s more expensive. Is it like double the price of say a finer or. No.

Ben Howkins 00:53:05 It’s so expensive. It’s mainly because the demand will become more expensive and has become more expensive over the last 5 or 10 years, but not noticeably.

Natalie MacLean 00:53:15 We will get to price then. Well, there you have it.

Natalie MacLean 00:53:23 I hope you.

Natalie MacLean 00:53:23 Enjoyed our chat with Ben. Here are my takeaways.

Natalie MacLean 00:53:26 Number one how does the.

Natalie MacLean 00:53:27 Solera system.

Natalie MacLean 00:53:28 Give.

Natalie MacLean 00:53:29 Every glass of.

Natalie MacLean 00:53:29 Sherry?

Natalie MacLean 00:53:30 Centuries of history. As Ben explains, it all changes when you actually go to. Halley’s. Or to end to Lucia or Sanlucar. The three towns that make up the sherry triangle. You step inside these bodegas or wineries, and you get that wonderful aroma of flor, the yeast that settles on top of a young wine. And why Fino and manzanilla, for instance, are always light, even though they could be 10 or 12 years old. Unlike Bordeaux, where you use new casks or butts every vintage year, the sherry makers never change theirs.

Natalie MacLean 00:54:05 He recalls a tasting at one bodega, the Hidalgo bodega in Sanlucar, and he tasted their amontillado and Palo cortado that was made during the Peninsular War. That’s going back 200 years. The Bottega producer sent the same sherry to Napoleon’s army and the same sherry to Wellington’s army. It is mind blowing. Number two, how does Sherry’s second terroir shape the wine? Just as much as the vineyard itself? Well, if you look at northern Europe, then explains, you’ll get northern France being the most well-known vineyards where champagne is produced and the southern part of Europe, you get Andalusia in Spain, where sherry is produced. They’ve both got this incredibly white soil and it goes under the channel into the English vineyards. It’s where you get the white cliffs of Dover. But what’s interesting is that champagne can be a still wine, and it was until about 100 years ago, but now it’s sparkling because the grapes and soil weren’t that good in and of themselves. You had to create something to make it special. He says it’s the same thing with Sherry because the palomino grape is quite gentle and soft.

Natalie MacLean 00:55:18 It actually doesn’t produce great wine by itself. You have to do something with it. And over the centuries. Out came Sherry fortified. And it’s unique somehow. It’s that airy space of the cathedral like bodegas that actually define it and give it that second terroir. The first terroir is obviously the soil, but that second terroir is actually in the winery itself. And number three, why should every great wine cellar have mature, dry sherry? People drink sherry, Ben says as the cream Sherry’s. And then you get your Fino, your D.O., Pepe’s and your men’s Annies. Because they are vintage attached people don’t taste them in the same way as they do new vintages. He thinks that the surprising thing is he didn’t realize, or many people don’t at first, that sherry is dry. It does come in that style, of course. There’s the cream that’s sweet. But when you look at and taste Amontillado or Palo Cortado, they’re both actually bone dry. That’s why Ben believes that no great wine cellar or collector is complete unless you have dry, mature sherry.

Natalie MacLean 00:56:35 If you missed episode 162, go back and have a listen. A chat about Sherry, Rioja Cava and other Spanish wine gems with Laurence Francis, and I’ll share a short clip with you now to whet your appetite.

Lawrence Francis 00:56:48 Sherry is one of the most complex wines out there, so tone is always going to have this amazing length and intensity. But Sherry in the right hands, you can almost just turn it up. There’s so many different colors and different flavors to paint from it. I think they’re on the right track and talking about how well it goes with food. Food is a wonderful way to hook people and to get them to want to know more about a wine.

Natalie MacLean 00:57:15 It’s a great way into wine itself, but also categories of wine that have maybe suffered from misconceptions like sherry has often been pegged as the Oxford Dawn University professor, wine behind the books, or Granny’s wine or whatever. But it is complex. It’s nutty. It’s wonderful because this range of styles, from sweet to dry.

Natalie MacLean 00:57:41 You won’t want to miss next week when we continue our chat with Ben to give you a taste of future guests, we’ll have John Baker with the intriguing backstory of Stalin’s secret wine cellar, now worth millions of dollars.

Natalie MacLean 00:57:53 Millie Milliken on artisanal tequila. Nick Fogg on the wines of Japan. Doctor Dave Nutt on wine and health. Global bartending champion Caitlin Stewart on fresh new cocktails. Humorist Murray Chevrier on how to sound wine smart. Karen Newman on foodie cocktails to close out any evening Liz Gabay on rosé Christian restaurant on whiskey and Marisol de la Fuente. On the wines of Argentina. Do you have a question for any of our guests? Please let me know. Do you know someone who would be interested in learning more about Sherry? Please let them know about this podcast. Email or text them now while you’re thinking about it. It’s really easy to find the Unreserved Wine Talk podcast. Just tell them to search for that title or my name Natalie MacLean wine on YouTube, Apple Podcasts, Spotify, their favorite podcast app or they can listen to the show on my website at Natalie MacLean podcast. Email me if you have a tip, question, or if you’d like to win one of six drinks books I have to give away. And yes, those future guests will also be giving away books so you can get the jump now if you want.

Natalie MacLean 00:59:02 I’d love to hear your thoughts on this episode if you’ve read my book or listening to it. Email me at Natalie at Natalie MacLean dot com. In the show notes, you’ll also find a link to take a free online food and wine pairing class with me called the five one in fruit bearing Mistakes that can Ruin your dinner and how to fix them forever and Natalie MacLean dot com forward slash class. And that’s all in the show notes at Natalie MacLean dot com forward slash 397. Thank you for taking the time to join me here. I hope something great is in your.

Natalie MacLean 00:59:32 Glass.

Natalie MacLean 00:59:32 This week. Perhaps a sherry that pairs beautifully with salted omens?

Natalie MacLean 00:59:43 You don’t want to miss one juicy episode of this podcast, especially the secret full bodied bonus episodes that I don’t announce on social media. So subscribe for free now at Natalie MacLean. Com forward slash meet me here next week. Cheers!

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