Why is Geology Essential for Vineyard Management but Overrated When It Comes to Wine Taste? Dr. Alex Maltman Shares Soil Secrets

Natalie MacLean 00:00:00 Why is geology essential for vineyard management but completely overrated when it comes to the taste of wine? Do soils get too much credit for wine flavor when invisible factors might be the real drivers? And what are they? And what the heck again? Does minerality in wine mean rock nutrient or just a taste perception? In today’s episode, you’ll hear the stories and tips that answer those questions in our chat with Doctor Alex Moltmann, author of the terrific new book Taste the Limestone, Smell the Slate. A geologist wanders through the world of wine. By the end of our conversation, you’ll also discover the relevance of geological age to the growing vine in the bedrock. Why many wine drinkers and writers guilty love to talk about geology, how the concept of terroir has been misunderstood and oversimplified. Agreed. and why Alex believes the influence of geology on wine is overstated compared to its influence on beer. Intriguing, and how the impact of geology on beer first developed.

Natalie MacLean 00:01:17 Do you have a thirst to learn about wine? Do you love stories about wonderfully obsessive people, hauntingly beautiful places, and amusingly awkward social situations? Well, that’s the blend here on the Unreserved Wine Talk podcast.

Natalie MacLean 00:01:34 I’m your host, Natalie MacLean, and each week I share with you unfiltered conversations with celebrities in the wine world, as well as confessions from my own tipsy journey as I write my third book on this subject. I’m so glad you’re here. Now pass me that bottle, please, and let’s get started.

Natalie MacLean 00:01:59 Welcome to episode 356 on CTV’s Cp24 Breakfast Show. This week we chatted about how we start craving our favorite comfort foods and of course, the perfect comfort drink to go with them as the weather cools. You know, I love this topic, probably because I find most drinks are very comforting. I’m not sure if I’ve had an uncomfortable drink. I’ve had a bad one, but not an uncomfortable one. They’re like a warm liquid hug for your taste buds. There you go. All right, so where are we starting? Rum always makes me think of comfort by a crackling fire. Big sweater. Irish setter. Okay. The dog is optional. You could go with a fluffy cat. The Diplomat Rico Reserva Exclusive is one of the world’s best super premium sipping rums.

Natalie MacLean 00:02:48 The rums brand icon Don honcho on the label was inspired by the Mantuan Rose, the Venezuelan noblemen of the 19th century, known for the diplomacy and taste, in fact diplomatically, was the first rum ever named spirit brand of the year by the prestigious Wine Enthusiast magazine, which is like winning Olympic gold. There are three ways I love to enjoy it. First, neat in a classic snifter glass. This is where you can appreciate its complexity the amber richness, the caramelized toffee, and the finish of vanilla that lingers long after the sip. It’s basically the slow jazz of spirits. You can’t rush this second. I like it on the rocks in a tumbler. A cube of ice softens the intensity and opens up those aromas of orange peel and licorice that stretch out slowly, like a fireside story told late into the evening. I’m feeling drowsy already. I hope you’re not nodding off on me now stay with me. And third, in a classic cocktail like the Manhattan or an Old Fashioned. fashion. Now the Manhattan is served in a coupe glass.

Natalie MacLean 00:03:59 You mix it in a cocktail shaker with ice and vermouth, then garnish it with a curly orange peel. Again, so very comforting. I’d pair this beautiful rum with a seared duck breast with orange glaze, glistening like amber sticky toffee pudding with a scoop of vanilla ice cream or roasted pecan pie with a buttery crust and warm maple filling. I think I’m going to have to go soon and get some of this anyway. Let’s move on to red wines. What’s a good comfort wine? So I have the Frontera Cabernet Sauvignon from Chile, which is like curling up with a good novel you’ve read many times but never tire of. It’s an easy drinking, smooth, full bodied wine with ripe blackberries and dark plum aromas. It’s one of the best selling Chilean Cabernet worldwide, so it’s perfect to enjoy on your own or with family and friends and your favorite playlist. I pair this with slow braised short rib stew where all the meat falls apart. At the touch of your fork are roasted root vegetable medley caramelized at the edges, or even dark chocolate lava cake that oozes molten comfort at the center.

Natalie MacLean 00:05:08 Am I over the top? Yes, yes I am, but I’m going to keep going. All right. Next up, la mole de la mole. Chianti Classico is a Tuscan treasure with notes of black cherry, dried herbs and an earthy richness. This winery sits at one of the highest elevations in Chianti Classico, about 550m above sea level, where the altitude creates cool nights and intense aromatics in the wine. The vineyards date back to Roman times, and the stone terraces were rebuilt by hand to preserve the historical farming methods. La moglie refers to the ancient Etruscan word for blade, describing the shape of the hills where the vineyards cut into the landscape. I pair this with baked macaroni blanketed with a rich, bubbling cheddar or lamb. Shepherd’s pie with buttery mashed potatoes. These are the dishes that answer that age old question. Is there an upper limit to comfort? Well, science says we haven’t found it yet, but I am a determined hedonist and I will explore further for you. Next up, the latest Sauvignon blanc that’s grown just four kilometres from the Pacific on Chile’s coast.

Natalie MacLean 00:06:17 This is a wine with a view. It’s so close to the ocean, and it’s why it tastes like an ocean breeze with a fresh citrus lift. This pioneering winery put this region on the map. And now the later valley is Chile’s coastal cradle of Sauvignon Blanc, and later is the most awarded winery in the region. I’d pair this wine with grilled shrimp tacos wrapped in warm tortillas or pan seared scallops with a golden crust and buttery center for a perfect ocean to glass moment. I can feel the wind in my hair. All right. To finish, we have the following. Airy Prosecco a sparkling Italian white wine with green apple, juicy white peach and just a hint of lemon sunshine. Founded in 1825, Falconeri helped put prosecco on the world map, making it one of Italy’s most comforting exports. Right up there with pizza and pasta, both of which would be terrific pairings. I’d also pair this bubbly with a golden cheese soufflé comfort cloud with a crust shatters delicately under your fork, or flaky croissants pulled apart while still warm.

Natalie MacLean 00:07:27 Take me now. All right. Any final words? Comfort drinks aren’t just about flavor. They’re also about memories. So cheers to comfort, connection and one more pour. You can find these drinks now. I am reviewing them on Instagram at Natalie MacLean. Wine. So follow me there. I’ll also post links to these drinks in the show. Notes at Natalie MacLean. 56. Back to today’s episode. Two of you are going to win a copy of Doctor Alex Altman’s new book. Taste the limestone. Smell the slate. A geologist wanders through the world of wine. I love that title. It’s whimsical and yet intriguing. If you’d like to win a copy, please email me and let me know you’d like to win. It doesn’t matter where you live. I also have two copies of The Wines of Brazil to give away, so I’ll choose four winners randomly from those who contact me at Natalie at Natalie MacLean. Com keep them for yourself or give them as gifts. Read them first, then regift them.

Natalie MacLean 00:08:31 You choose. No one’s going to say anything. Our latest book giveaway winners include Jerry Hull from Delaware and Joseph Schefter from Boston, both of whom have won a copy of a Cynics Guide to Wine by Sonny Hodge. Next up, Maggie Daly from BC. Sashi Prakash from the UK and Matthew Germain from Montreal, all of whom have won vines in a cool climate. And finally, David Jaffe has won both A Season for That by Steve Hoffman and Decanter magazine’s The Ultimate Travel Guide for Wine Lovers by Amy Wilkie. Yes, you can win more than one book as it’s random. See how easy this is? Email me. In other bookish news, if you’ve read the paperback or e-book or are listening to the audiobook of my memoir, Wine Witch on Fire Rising from the Ashes of Divorce, defamation, and Drinking Too Much, a national bestseller and one of Amazon’s best books of the year. I’d love to hear from you at Natalie at Natalie MacLean dot com. I’d be happy to send you beautifully designed, personally signed bookplates for the copies you buy or give us gifts.

Natalie MacLean 00:09:35 I’ll put a link in the show notes to all retailers worldwide at Natalie MacLean. Com slash 356. Okay, on with the shoe. Alex Moltmann is an emeritus professor of earth scientists at Aberystwyth University in Wales, United Kingdom. Along with a decorated career in university teaching and research. Alex has grown vines and made wine in his home for 50 years. Through this, he became very interested in vineyard geology and its fashionable but poorly understood relationship with wine. Alex has contributed to The Oxford Companion to Wine and to the World Atlas of Wine, and is the author of the acclaimed book vineyards, Rocks and Soils A Wine Lover’s Guide to Geology, and his new book is Taste the Limestone, Smell the Slate. A geologist wanders through the world of wine, which I just love, and we’re going to talk about. He joins us now from his home in Wales. Welcome, Alex. So good to have you here with us.

Alex Moltmann 00:10:39 Well, thank you, Natalie. It’s a pleasure indeed. And hello to everyone who’s listening or watching.

Alex Moltmann 00:10:45 A pleasure to talk with you.

Natalie MacLean 00:10:47 Absolutely. We’re going to dive right into it because you have got so much ground to cover. I’ll try not to do the puns. All right, here we go. When did you first become fascinated with rocks and hills and geology? Alex?

Alex Moltmann 00:11:00 Well, that’s way back. Let’s see. Well, I was born and brought up in the fine old city of York in the north of England. And as a kid I was very interested in cycling and walked a great place for cycling because it’s flat. But if you cycle out across the plain, the so-called Vale of York, you inevitably hit some hills and suddenly the gradient goes up and you’ve got to pedal. And I’ve always had a curious mind. And so I started thinking, oh, what’s changed here? Why do I suddenly have to go up this great slope? And as best you could in those days, I looked at books in the public library and found out about something called bedrock and erosion. Oh, this is neat.

Alex Moltmann 00:11:51 I think that was part of the reason it things started. And the other part, as it’s so often the case, is I had a good teacher, not so much a teacher who taught me geology. This is primary school now who didn’t do geology. But this fellow, I guess it was his hobby. He’d bring in rocks from time to time, special rocks and enthuse about them. And wow, I was entranced by this. And occasionally he’d bring in a fossil and I’d look at this thing. This is a creature that lived a hundred million. Whoa! And so when the time came for me to go to university, geology was the thing to study. It was a natural for reasons like that.

Natalie MacLean 00:12:34 Wow. That’s terrific. I love that often it is a teacher, isn’t it? So you also had an early interest in the Beatles. And I don’t mean the ground bugs, but the rock band. So from rocks in the ground to rock stars. What got you interested in the Beatles?

Alex Moltmann 00:12:48 Where did you get that from? Oh it’s true.

Natalie MacLean 00:12:51 A little bird told me.

Alex Moltmann 00:12:52 All right. Okay. Yeah, well, well, well, I’m of a certain age and that I feel privileged to have been just entering my teens when all youngsters suddenly get interested in their music. When rock n roll broke, most of the early American rock n roll stars did tour Britain. And I had the gumption to go and see them. And so, apart from Elvis Presley, I have seen all the great early rock stars. I love data, it was so exciting. But then, of course, as the song famously put it, one day the music died, 1959. He was all over and suddenly things were pretty deadly on that front until I witnessed a second explosion. The Beatles. And guess what? When that exploded 1962 or so. I was just going to university. Guess where Liverpool.

Natalie MacLean 00:13:52 Are? How convenient.

Alex Moltmann 00:13:54 I studied geology for four years at the University of Liverpool. Just at that time in the middle 60s. And so I saw it all firsthand.

Alex Moltmann 00:14:03 I went to the clubs, the Mersey beat clubs, the famous cavern. I saw the Beatles and it was just so electrifying. It was so new and, well, how could you not get excited by it? And so I’ve followed that kind of music ever since. Really. It was so epoch making. The Beatles did so many innovative things, not just the music. It’s hard to look back and appreciate now, but I witnessed it firsthand. So it was great.

Natalie MacLean 00:14:33 Well, you did have a curious mind, so I can see that being a natural extension and fitting all together. So your career trajectory spans, of course, from geology Professor now to wine writer. Wine author. What sparked your initial interest in wine? Because you’ve been growing your own vines for, I believe, 50 years.

Alex Moltmann 00:14:50 Oh well, the wine thing also goes way back. Really? Because I think I can remember as a little boy in York and we didn’t have any wine in our house. It was just an alien thing.

Alex Moltmann 00:15:03 I didn’t really know what it was, but I can remember pressing my nose against a shop window that sold wine. Looking at these bottles, what are they? What’s in there? Look at those labels. Look at the names. And I was just seduced by these exotic sounding names. What? And that’s going on. And I think a little seed was sown such that when I got old enough to be buying bottles of wine when I was at university, and particularly post-graduate studies, suddenly that seed germinated and I. Wow. I’m. This is interesting. And that curiosity kicked in again, so I bought books and read about it. And that’s important because I can now look back at those books and see how things have changed. And my goodness, the wine world has changed over that 50 years the way it’s seen. I look back at those 1960s books and there weren’t many of them back then. It’s almost a different world, really. So that’s how the wine thing got started. And of course, it’s been there ever since.

Alex Moltmann 00:16:11 And the curiosity led me to want to visit wineries and vineyards, talk to the winemaker. Well, how do you do this then? And I was always asking questions. But the important thing in retrospect is there was never any purpose. I never had a goal. It was just a hobby. It was just fun. And I never knew I was accumulating information. And I never dreamed that one day I would be writing about it. One thing led to another when I came to the university here in Wales and bought a property out in the country, started to garden, grow vegetables. Well, I was curious about that. Why do you lime the soil before you plant brassicas? What’s that all about then? I was always asking questions and it was natural for me to plant some grapevines. So again, questions and attempt to make wine, which I did. Like you said for a long time now 50 years or so. And that’s taught me so much. And so what I think happened in retrospect was inadvertently, these various strands were developing about agriculture and about wine and about winemaking.

Alex Moltmann 00:17:26 And all the time I had the geology. And in some ways, I think that’s the most difficult part, because geology, I always think, is a difficult subject to pick up quickly. By then it’s nature. Things don’t lend themselves to snappy definitions. Well, I had that. So when this fashion came about for vineyard geology. Oh, wait a minute. I know about this stuff. I’m on it. And so I decided to write some articles, little things in magazines, first of all. And that’s relatively recently. That’s 15 years or something like that. Of course, that is recent history. But how I came to be where I am writing about this after a long career in pure geology, if you wish, was the coming together of these different strands which were developing all along, then suddenly they crystallized and I retired. I took early retirement from university when I was 60, so I now had the scope to put some of these ideas I was developing into writing. And I did that.

Alex Moltmann 00:18:29 And here I am.

Natalie MacLean 00:18:30 Here we are. Wow. And of course, you have been busy writing. This is your second book. Your previous book, vineyards, Rocks and soils was praised for its scientific approach. So how does this new book that we’ll be talking about? And for those listening, we’ll put a link in the show notes to both books so that you can order them. How were the two books different? Because they both have that sort of vineyard rock geology focus. But yeah.

Alex Moltmann 00:18:55 I see myself as a vineyard geologist, really. So when this fashion for talking about soil in wine, which is not in these books I mentioned from the 1960s, so wasn’t mentioned back then, not barely. It’s a fairly new fashion. Last 20 years I began seeing so many things to do with vineyard geology that were just plain wrong. And I thought, well, I’ve got to write a book or try and write a book that explains things from first principles. So that earlier book is essentially a textbook, developing things bit by bit through the book.

Alex Moltmann 00:19:36 So if anybody can be bothered to read it through because it is kind of technical in places, though, I try to make it readable. It’s essentially a textbook. And also, I would like to think a reference book is some professional winemaker wants to find out what some geological term means. Well, I know full well that AI won’t do it for you. So it’s a good index in the book, and you can look in the book and hopefully it gives you a nice, rounded explanation of what that geological principle or term means. So essentially that first book is a textbook cum reference book. The new book, I like to think, is more of a reading book. A dip in and read book. There are 18 chapters. 12 of them have already been published in wine magazines, particularly The World of Fine Wine magazine.

Natalie MacLean 00:20:35 Very August publication.

Alex Moltmann 00:20:36 It is, and it gives me the scope to develop things at some length, more lengthy than most magazines will let. So I like that. So over the years I’ve done a number of articles for them, and then I wrote six additional chapters of the same length, same style to make this book of 18 chapters, most of which are self standing.

Alex Moltmann 00:21:01 So I think the reader can dip into any chapter and start reading that chapter, and it’s complete in itself, and then jump in due course to a different chapter. So it’s a dip in and read book. I think inadvertently, I’m explaining geology along the way in a gentle way, in a more readable way. But that’s the difference. The new one is a dipping and read book.

Natalie MacLean 00:21:27 Which is great because that’s exactly the kind of book we love to talk about on this podcast. So you mentioned in your preface to this new book, but the seminal article you published about wine and geology that garnered unexpected international attention. Give us some examples of the reactions to that article.

Alex Moltmann 00:21:44 I was staggered by that. I’ve got to say that that little article 2003, I think it was that started it all was really my effort to put into print some thoughts I’d been developing for some time, and which really are the basis for the final chapter in the new book expanded. I’d been thinking for some time that it was a very curious thing here and still is.

Alex Moltmann 00:22:11 The role of geology in the vineyard and in wine is much trumpeted and loved and written about as it is to some extent with whiskey, Scotch whiskey and Kentucky, Tennessee and the more artisan distilleries. They like to talk about the geology as well. And as with wine, I don’t really think it holds up to scrutiny. Very well. It sounds good, but as we’ll probably talk about, all this trumpeting business is justified. But yet there is a drink, which I would argue geology is pivotal for, and certainly was historically. And that’s beer.

Natalie MacLean 00:22:51 Oh, really? Why so beer? Not whisky and wine.

Alex Moltmann 00:22:54 Well, we’re digressing a bit here.

Natalie MacLean 00:22:55 In a little.

Alex Moltmann 00:22:56 Bit. Essentially because of the role of water. Many brewers have their own water supply and that is, well, water comes out of the ground where the water has sat for centuries, probably in an aquifer. It’s dissolved anything that will dissolve in the aquifer. So sometimes these waters are loaded with things dissolved. And that influences how the brewer goes about brewing his beer and the kind of beer that emerges at the end of it.

Alex Moltmann 00:23:28 We might come on in due course to the Activity that vine roots have in taking up vine nutrients. They only take up certain things which they need and want, and they reject other things. Well, this brewing water, everything’s in it, including things like sulfate, chloride, carbonate bike and urban things that vines don’t take up. But these things are crucial to the taste of beer and the style of beer. And to cut a very long story short, it’s the last chapter of this book. The reason why Pale Ales and the now very fashionable India Pale Ale developed in the English Midlands, is everything to do with the geology there and the kind of water it yielded. The reason why lager developed on the European continent, and particularly in the Czech Republic, particularly in a place called Pilsner and what’s now the Czech Republic, and gave rise to the style of beer is everything to do with the geology there and in Vienna. The reason you get dark stouts in Dublin. Porter in London is because of the water, which is because of the geology.

Alex Moltmann 00:24:43 So like I said. Absolutely pivotal, but never talked about. You never read about geology and beer. But but that’s how I’ve outlined. Whereas it’s with wine that you hear all this stuff. And I think that’s really quite hard to justify. That’s what this article was about. Kind of brief, succinct article. I didn’t even know if the magazine would publish it, but yes, they did.

Natalie MacLean 00:25:05 So what did people say in response? Like, were there winemakers say.

Alex Moltmann 00:25:08 Oh, they wanted information. What had happened was the publishers put out a press release, and somehow this press release got into the global system. So suddenly I got emails. This was the early days of emails from literally all over the world, people asking me more, what else have you published? Tell us more about this and what do you think about this? And well, wow. Well, and the interest, in contrast with all the articles had published before then in pure geology. You know, highfalutin, technical, academic, arcane stuff that only a handful of people ever read.

Alex Moltmann 00:25:45 And there were people who knew what I was doing anyway, so I knew you’d get no response from that sort of stuff suddenly. Whoa. I’ve hit a red hot button here, you know, and there was no looking back. So that’s what started it all. People wanted to know more. I’d found a niche, so I thought, well, I’ve got more to offer, so I will write more articles, so I did.

Natalie MacLean 00:26:07 You did. And the book’s title. Taste the limestone. Smell the slate. It seems to have a bit of irony to it, because you’re saying geology is so overrated when it comes to wine taste. There are other factors. Was this intentional?

Alex Moltmann 00:26:20 No. Not really. I mean, you’re dead, right? Now, I look at it that way. It is a bit ironic. No, essentially, I wanted it to be eye catching. I mean, the real title of the book is the subtitle that you did read out. A geologist wanders through the world of wine, and that wanders reflects, I think, the eclectic nature of the different chapters.

Alex Moltmann 00:26:43 That’s the real title, but that’s awfully dull. So we’ve got to have a more eye catching title. So I came up with this, even though I argue eventually and summarize in the epilogue at the end that you can’t really taste limestone in wine, you can’t smell slate or any other rock for that matter. I just thought it was an eye grabbing headline. And so that’s what we went with. The publishers liked it. They thought, well, that’s a great title, so let’s do it. I never really thought about the irony, but I suppose it is.

Natalie MacLean 00:27:15 Oh, maybe. I see most things as ironic in life. So let’s dive right into chapter 15, which is like a really good, juicy, meaty, controversial one. The four elephants in the tasting room elephant, of course, being something you never talk about. But you should. Now you argue that wine lovers and critics give too much weight to geology influencing the taste of wine. So let’s do some definitions first so that we don’t get completely tangled and confused.

Natalie MacLean 00:27:39 Starting with minerality. Oh, so if I understand that you can correct me after I give my little spiel here, but there are three definitions that I think get confused when it comes to minerals and minerality. Number one, minerals in solid rock form that are inaccessible to vine roots. Like they can’t take up those minerals. Number two. Minerals in the form of nutrients in organic matter that are maybe like the vitamins we take as humans that binds can access. And number three, minerality, which is really a whimsical adjective that people use to describe wine but inaccurately is linked to tasting actual minerals, which you can’t do. Rather, it’s probably related to some textural sensation or something. Or acidity. I don’t know what, but are those kind of the three sort of aspects of minerality and how they all get mixed up.

Alex Moltmann 00:28:27 Yeah, that’s pretty much it. I tend to use the word geological mineral. For those compounds that are making half of the vineyard soil and that come together to make rocks and nutrient mineral, which are single elements which we need as well as vines in order to function.

Alex Moltmann 00:28:49 And it is true that the nutrient minerals or potential nutrient minerals are there in the geological minerals, but they’re locked in sharing electrons and things like that, and things have to happen to release them and make them accessible to the vine roots. I would guess we will talk more about this in due course. But then recently this new thing has come up. Mineral in wine, the taste and this word minerality, which somebody concocted a couple of decades ago, but with huge effect. And everybody talks now about, oh yes, mineral. I’m getting mineral in there. But as you said, that’s a taste perception. I don’t know what it means or what causes it, but that’s a different third meaning of the word mineral. You’ve got geological minerals, nutrient minerals and this rather vague taste perception adjective.

Natalie MacLean 00:29:47 Yeah. Some whimsical type of metaphor. So you make the point again, just to clarify, geological minerals have no taste or smell because they don’t dissolve or vaporize. So let’s talk rock. You put it into context.

Natalie MacLean 00:30:02 The Earth is 4.6 billion years old. Yet the layers of rock that we like to talk about, like Kimmeridgian rock from the Jurassic period, they were created very late in the game 0.6 billion years ago.

Alex Moltmann 00:30:14 hundreds of was 157 million years ago. But anyway, here we go. Yeah. Don’t get me going. On geological age, what is the relevance of geological age to the growing vine in the bedrock Kimmeridgian. Oh, that’s a whole different podcast on its own geological age. It’s fun and nice to talk about, but it’s not relevant to viticulture. And let’s be clear at one point, the soil, the disintegrated matter on top of the bedrock that the vine is growing in is vastly younger and unrelated to the geological age of the bedrock. I mean, at Kimmeridge. Say, for example, you mentioned this at Chablis. Sure. The bedrock formed 157 million years ago in Kimmeridgian times, part of the Jurassic times. But the soil didn’t form then. The soil has been forming over the last few tens of thousands of years and is still forming now developing, evolving, compacting, leaching and whatnot.

Alex Moltmann 00:31:12 In other words, to put it bluntly, the famous Kimmeridgian soil of Chablais isn’t Kimmeridgian in the sense of an age. It’s modern, it’s present day, and this applies around the world. When people like to talk about how old their vineyard soils are.

Natalie MacLean 00:31:29 They’re always going on older soils in whatever.

Alex Moltmann 00:31:32 Well, they’re not that old. Even the very oldest soils in Australia, South Africa, Uruguay are only a million or maybe two. Sounds a lot, but geologically they’re young. But the point is, they’re unrelated to the geological age of the bedrock. So I could go on for a long time about the misunderstandings about geological time and geological ages. Oh, there is a chapter in the book. I don’t know which number it is on geological time and how it works, but yeah, that’s a whole different topic, really. I digressed a little.

Natalie MacLean 00:32:03 That’s okay. I like digressions and wanderings through this topic. I love this provocative statement telling me that a wine comes from a certain type of rock.

Natalie MacLean 00:32:11 Tells me nothing about that wine.

Alex Moltmann 00:32:14 That’s provocative.

Natalie MacLean 00:32:15 Yeah, well, it is for many wine lovers.

Alex Moltmann 00:32:17 Yeah, I suppose.

Natalie MacLean 00:32:18 Who like to talk about whatever the schist and shale and all the rest of.

Alex Moltmann 00:32:22 It, of course.

Natalie MacLean 00:32:23 So why do so many wine drinkers and writers love to talk about geology, whether it’s limestone, shale cliffs? You know, schist. What makes it so attractive? Is it just because it’s tangible? Understandable.

Alex Moltmann 00:32:36 Let’s go back to this provocative statement. First of all, let me put it this way, Natalie, if I present you with an anonymous bottle of, I have to say, red wine, and all I tell you about it is the vines were growing on schist soils. What does that mean to you? What do you expect from that wine? Because it’s grown on schist soils.

Natalie MacLean 00:32:56 I don’t associate wine styles and soil types, so nothing to me. But maybe someone who does. Yeah, might.

Alex Moltmann 00:33:03 There’s plenty of quotations in the book. The granite soils give the wine a tension and energy or something like this.

Alex Moltmann 00:33:09 Or this wine has a finesse because of the granite soils in the ground. But granite soils say they’re common around the wine world. All kinds of wine are made on granite soils. All kinds of cultivars grow in them. All kinds of wine styles. So what is granite bringing to a wine? I don’t know, I don’t get it. I can’t see any commonality between. Well, say, let’s take a northern France example. You get your full, rich heritage. A northern Rhone Wines colonist not only charges on granite, actually, but much of it is. You get that style and then just not far away. Beaujolais, part of Beaujolais is granite is the same style of one.

Natalie MacLean 00:33:57 No, almost polar opposite.

Alex Moltmann 00:34:00 Well, I’m glad you say that. So saying that. Well, this wine was produced from granite soils. How is that helpful? In view of what we just said. And I could go through the same argument with all the other rocks, too. They’re so diverse around the world, I just don’t think it’s helpful.

Alex Moltmann 00:34:18 I like reading it. Oh, I see it. Oh, that’s an interesting piece of information, but I would maintain it doesn’t tell me anything about the wine.

Natalie MacLean 00:34:26 Makes so much sense. So then back to why do we keep obsessing about it?

Natalie MacLean 00:34:30 Is it just. Yeah. Yeah, because it’s tangible.

Natalie MacLean 00:34:32 Because it’s visible.

Alex Moltmann 00:34:35 Yeah. I think there are a lot of reasons, actually, and that’s certainly part of it. I think what happens here is that people look at, shall we say, a hill slope with vines on it. And they say that year after year the wines from here always tastes different to the wines from there. Well what’s different? It’s obviously all the same climate on this even hill slope. So what’s different in making the wine in the same way? Oh, it’s the soil. And as you said, you can see the soil. So people pick up on the soil and say it’s the soil that’s doing it. But here’s the thing that bugs me all through this.

Alex Moltmann 00:35:14 Nobody says how the soil does it. How does the soil make that difference? We can come back to nutrients and things if you wish, but basically we don’t understand how the soil is going to make this difference. But at the same time, there’s a whole host of invisible factors operating on that hill slope, the very on a fine scale that we’re not aware of unless anyone’s taking the time and the money and the effort to put in closely spaced sensors and measure temperature, say, over time, through a day, through a season, over the years, and whenever this has been done, that just to do with, say, climate. And there are a lot of factors in there are varying on a scale that we just wouldn’t imagine by looking at the hill slope. It only takes a slight declivity in the hill slope, a slight change of orientation, a slight change in the orientation of the vine rose, a low wall, walls and bushes to change the airflow. The airflow changes humidity, it changes the temperature.

Alex Moltmann 00:36:22 And in fact, the whole thing is much more variable than we would ever imagine. Because these factors are invisible, and we know these factors influence how grapes ripen and how the flavor precursors in the grape develop, which are going to go on to in the fermentation, make the wine taste like it does. We know how those things work, unlike the soil, but we don’t consider them partly because they’re invisible and partly because they’re technical. And who wants to read about diurnal temperature ranges and things like that? Geology has charisma, granite soils, you know, limestone. It’s got charisma. That’s what people like. Even though I suggest we really don’t know how these different soils do it. And so I think that’s a big reason And another reason which I develop in chapter two in the book about the long and I think rather romantic discovery of photosynthesis, is that the idea that wine is made from the soil because vines grow by eating the soil, was with us literally for millennia. For centuries. It more or less started with Aristotle, who was a very influential writer.

Alex Moltmann 00:37:46 And when the medieval church came in and said, oh, yes, wine is of the soil. And they noticed that, yeah, vines grew by eating the soil and taking it water from the soil in just the same way that animals drink water and eat food. It’s just the same sort of thing. But plants don’t develop the smelly waste matter that animals do. Why is this? God must be directly involved. God is directing vines to grow. And as for the fermentation as it would call it. Now, as for the transition of grape juice to this noble liquid we call wine. How does that happen? This is God’s hand doing it. Wine is God’s gift from the earth. And this is the teaching of the all powerful medieval church. It became the dogma. And I can’t help thinking that almost got into our genes. And so, although eventually photosynthesis was step by step, discovered not that long ago, actually, the word photosynthesis, as I recall in the book, was coined in 1893.

Alex Moltmann 00:39:00 That’s not that long ago as these things are going in the development of science. I think that heritage, that legacy of wine, is on the soil. It hasn’t completely gone. So when you check that box, as well as the other things we’ve just said. And the great thing about terroir, provenance, the need to know where a foodstuff and especially wine came from. On top of that origin, you know, is a backlash against anonymous industrial foodstuffs. If you know precisely where it came from, that’s a big tick in the box.

Natalie MacLean 00:39:38 That should tell you something.

Natalie MacLean 00:39:39 About the product.

Natalie MacLean 00:39:40 Yeah.

Alex Moltmann 00:39:41 And here, if we’re saying we’re not only know where it came from, it came from the soil. Well, how viscerally satisfying is that? So another big box. So I think is a whole lot of reasons coming together that yeah, I completely get it. Why? People just love the idea that wine is tasting of limestone and stone. Yeah, it’s charismatic, it’s romantic, and I get that.

Alex Moltmann 00:40:07 And I don’t want to spoil the fun. It pains me, really, as a geologist, to say my subject. Wait a minute. Is it that important? How does it do it? And when I look at the interactions between vine roots and soil, I just can’t see how it does it. And so for these reasons, I think yeah. Good story. But let’s take a step back and rein in a bit. Is it that important? If it is. Tell me why. Tell me how. And nobody ever has done.

Natalie MacLean 00:40:37 No. I think, you know, it’s great for PR, romance brochures and publicity kinds of releases. But I also think if we know where someone came from, not just their Canadian, but that they came from the East coast, then that’s going to tell us something about who they are. And we want to know the same about what we consume. Like this is a wine from that place. Therefore it must taste like this. And we just want that connection, as you say.

Natalie MacLean 00:41:03 You mentioned terroir, that fancy French term that combines climate, soil, winemaking decisions. But people get that mixed up, Meaning. Terroir. Tare of the earth, Terra firma. All that stuff. Right? Like.

Natalie MacLean 00:41:17 Yes. You feel the need to get that.

Alex Moltmann 00:41:19 In on the head, then? Yeah, I think probably less so now. But in recent years, a lot of people said terroir means tare, the French word tare, which means the earth. Well, it doesn’t. Never has done. It’s more like territory, really. I’ve had a book for a long, long time called cuisine de terroir. A cooking of the terroir foods. Terroir. Well, that’s not soil. There are books on literature of terroir, how this place affects authors and the way they think and the way they write. And there’s a lot of other books on this, that and the other terroir, I’m sure isn’t just soil. And so I think people were misled in equating terroir with the soil. That’s just one part of it, as you rightly said.

Alex Moltmann 00:42:06 And in any case, doing that it undermines the value of the word terroir, which sums up all the relevant factors in a place without specifying which ones are more important than something else, because that might vary from place to place anyway. And so it’s such a useful word. To me it’s self-evident. I mean, as a gardener, some crops always do better in some parts of my garden than other parts of my garden. Why? Because there’s an apple tree shading the sunlight or the drainage or something. Well, terroir sums it all up in a single word. So it’s a very valuable word. I think that value is rather lost if we suddenly distill it down to just meaning soil.

Natalie MacLean 00:42:47 Yeah.

Natalie MacLean 00:42:47 And yet when I go on a winery, visit a number of winery visits, I’m taken to the pit. And that is where they’ve excavated an area, I don’t know, six, seven feet down. And we have a look at how long the vines go down. And that’s because they’re getting deeper and deeper nutrients.

Natalie MacLean 00:43:04 But is that just the search for water? What are those vines doing? I mean, that just seems to be a classic winery move to show you the pit.

Alex Moltmann 00:43:13 That’s a great point. I’m glad you raised that, Natalie, because when I’m saying vineyard geology is overhyped. I’m talking about the wine in our glass. Am I tasting the limestone? Smelling the slate? And I’m saying, no, you can’t. But I’m not for one moment saying that geology is overhyped in the vineyard. It’s a very different situation for the grower. The grower needs to know about his soil, how deep it is, what are its properties? What are its water properties in particular? Do I need to dig trenches? Dig? Put in drains? Do I need to irrigate? What rootstock will be important for? We’ve drifted a bit from the four elephants in the room, haven’t we?

Natalie MacLean 00:43:57 But anyway, yes we have.

Alex Moltmann 00:43:58 I’ve got rootstock. What’s spacing advice? How am I going to trellis and how am I going to manage geology.

Alex Moltmann 00:44:04 Will it influence so many things in the vineyard, so the grower may well want to dig soil pits and see what the roots are doing to inform his vineyard management. But this is not the same thing as the flavor that develops through fermentation through to our wine glass. So I’m not saying vineyard geology is not important, it’s the taste in the glass that I’m questioning.

Natalie MacLean 00:44:33 Okay, it’s great to sort this out, but it is complex. Well, there.

Natalie MacLean 00:44:43 You.

Natalie MacLean 00:44:43 Have it. I hope you enjoyed our chat with Alex. Here are my takeaways. Number one, why is geology essential for vineyard management but way overrated when it comes to wine taste? So as Alex explains, vineyard geology is overhyped and he’s referring to the taste of wine in the glass. Am I tasting limestone? Smelling the slate? He’s saying, no, you can’t, even though that’s his book title. It’s a very different situation, though, he says for the grower. That person needs to know the soil, how deep it is, the properties, especially the water drainage.

Natalie MacLean 00:45:18 Are they going to dig trenches, put in drains, irrigate? What’s the root stock? Where is it facing? Even trellises. Decisions. All are influenced by geology, but that is not the same thing as the flavor that develops through fermentation right into our wine glass. Number two do soils get too much credit for wine flavor when invisible factors may be the real drivers? Alex says people look at a hill slope with vines on it and they say, hey, the wines from this patch taste different from over there. What’s different? Okay, because this is the same climate, even the same hill slope, and they’re making the wine in the same way. So they just jump to the conclusion it’s the soil because they can see it, they can pick it up, but they don’t understand how or if soil is making the difference. There’s a whole host of invisible factors from a slight decline in the hill slope. A slight change of orientation or the orientation of the vine rose. A low walls, some bushes.

Natalie MacLean 00:46:17 All of those are just going to change the airflow. Airflow changes humidity. It also changes temperature. And in fact, there’s so many more variables than we could ever imagine. But we don’t because they’re invisible. These factors influence how grapes ripen and how the flavor precursors in the grapes develop. Those, of course, are going to go on into fermentation and ultimately influence what the wine tastes like, as he says. Who wants to read about diurnal temperature ranges? Geography has charisma. It has style. Granite soils, limestone. You know, it’s very sexy stuff. So that’s what people like. Even though he says we really don’t know how different soils do it or if they do anything at all. And number three. What does minerality mean in wine? Boy, that question keeps coming back episode after episode, but I think we need to keep scratching at it. Is it a rock? Is it a nutrient? Is it just a taste perception? Alex says he uses the word geological mineral for compounds that are making half of the vineyard soil, and that come together to create rocks.

Natalie MacLean 00:47:32 He uses the words nutrient, mineral, which are single elements which we need for our own health, as well as the vines in order to function. And it is true that nutrient minerals are inside geological minerals, but they’re locked in terms of sharing electrons and the health component. And there are things that have to happen to release them and make them accessible through vine roots and bioavailable to us, the word minerality, he said, which Sandwich. Somebody he doesn’t like concocted a couple of decades ago has had a huge effect on how we describe wine. We talk about the minerality, but it’s a taste perception. He doesn’t know what it means or what causes it. But it’s a third meaning of the word mineral. And I would add, I think it is a romantic notion of minerality. In the show notes, you’ll find the full transcript of my conversation with Alex, links to his website, and the video versions of these conversations on Facebook and YouTube live, as well as where you can order my book online now, no matter where you live.

Natalie MacLean 00:48:37 If you missed episode 350, go back and take a listen. It was a recent one, but I’m recommending it again because Sonny Hodge and I discuss Can you really days minerality in wine? I think it’s worth having another stab at it from a different perspective. Of course. His book is The Cynics Guide to Wine, and I’ll share a short clip with you now to whet your appetite.

Sunny Hodge 00:48:59 We can smell some geological materials like salt and some minerals, but most minerals and metals were unable to smell and taste. And those metals that we feel that we can smell and taste. So I’m talking like, you know, when you have a coin, you put it in your fingers and it has a really distinct smell. But that’s actually a tertiary influence of our oils reacting with those metals. So a freshly minted coin has no smell. But as soon as we touch it, our oils start breaking it down. Then we smell those reactions. So technically metal and many other minerals, most other minerals except for salt, don’t have smell or taste.

Sunny Hodge 00:49:38 So.

Natalie MacLean 00:49:43 You won’t want to miss next week when we continue our chat with Alex. If you liked this episode or learned even one little bitty thing from it, please email or tell one friend about the podcast this week. Because if the listenership doesn’t grow, I’m going to become very discouraged. Not that I’m discouraged now. I love you very much, but you need to tell someone about this so that we form a bigger group here. Especially someone you know who would be interested in learning more about the relationship between wine and geology. So whether it’s a wine nerd, a rock nerd, or just someone who would like to be more knowledgeable about wine, geology is one of those things that gets thrown around a lot. All right, it’s easy to find the Unreserved Wine Talk podcast. Just tell them to search for that title or my name Natalie MacLean Wine on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, their favorite podcast app, or they can listen to the show on my website at Natalie MacLean dot com forward podcast. Email me if you have a SIP tip.

Natalie MacLean 00:50:43 Would like to win one of four copies of the books I have to give away. I’d also love to hear your thoughts on this episode, or if you’ve read my book or listening to it. So email me my friend at Natalie at Natalie MacLean dot com. In the show notes, you’ll find a link to take a free online food and wine pairing class with me, called the Five Wine and Food Pairing Mistakes That Can Ruin Your Dinner and How to Fix Them Forever. At Natalie MacLean class. And that’s all in the show notes at Natalie MacLean. Com forward slash 356. Thank you for taking the time to join me here. I hope something great is in your glass this week. Perhaps a wine that tastes rock solid.

Natalie MacLean 00:51:28 You don’t want to miss one juicy episode of this podcast, especially the secret full bodied bonus episodes that I don’t announce on social media. So subscribe for free now at Natalie MacLean. Com subscribe. Meet me here next week. Cheers!