How Can Music Change the Taste of Your Wine? Susan Lin, MW, Shares Stories and Tips

Natalie MacLean
Jul16th

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Introduction

Why might a symphony night pair just as well with your wine as a heavy metal ballad? What is “sonic seasoning” and how can music impact the way we experience the taste of wine? How are sensory experiences like music, taste, and atmosphere all connected?

In this episode of the Unreserved Wine Talk podcast, I’m chatting with Susan Lin, a Master of Wine and a Master of Fine Arts in Classical Piano and Musicology.

You can find the wines we discussed here.

 

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Highlights

  • What did Susan’s grandfather teach her about fine beverages and hospitality?
  • How did playing piano in hotels as a child shape Susan’s perspective on the holistic nature of our sensory experiences?
  • Is there a connection between Susan’s backgrounds in tech, music, and wine?
  • When did Susan decide she wanted to dive deeper into the intersection between music and wine?
  • What makes a wine “musical”?
  • How do cross-modal correspondences impact wine tasting?
  • Why was Brut Non-Vintage Champagne Susan’s choice for her research paper?
  • What is “sonic seasoning” in the context of wine and music?
  • What was Susan’s most memorable wine and music pairing event?
  • What might surprise you about the intersection between classical music and heavy metal?
  • How did Susan set up her experiment to observe how music affected participants perceptions of the wine they were tasting?

 

Key Takeaways

  • Why might a symphony night pair just as well with your wine as a heavy metal ballad?
    • Susan says she was always encouraging a Bach goth night at the symphony to bring people together. I like to say, whether my Brahms is your Metallica or vice versa, music can make such a difference in what you’re feeling. Hence, if you got a glass of wine, what you’re tasting in that glass, right? I’ve actually done a few experiments with heavy metal. People feel a lot of things, and there are ballads in metal. It’s not just your typical really assertive sound all the time. It can be really soulful too and I noticed a lot of use of medieval melodies and folk songs in the ballads that are really nice. So not too far of a distance between Brahms and Metallica in that sense.
  • What is “sonic seasoning” and how can music impact the way we experience the taste of wine?
    • Susan explains that if you’re listening to something that might add a little bit of pizzazz here or there to your wine, like seasoning can do. It’s more of a fun term, not a scientific term. All classical composers experienced all the emotions and all the feelings that we all do and it comes through in their music. Maybe they can be feeling joyful or melancholy or longing or frustrated or upset, and everything in between. So the nature of the seasoning is that it can run in many, many different ways.
  • How are sensory experiences like music, taste, and atmosphere all connected?
    • Susan observed during her performances how moods of the guests changed depending on what she played. Everything in the sensory world, all of our experiences, are really taken in holistically, right? It’s not like, oh, we’re just listening to this one thing and that’s isolated. Oh, and we’re tasting this one thing, we’re smelling this one thing, and we’re seeing something. It’s all together. I knew that it was something special, and knew that it was something that I wanted to learn more about, or just somehow be a part of. And playing the piano in those situations actually was a great way for me to be a part of it.

 

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Everything in the sensory world, all of our experiences, are taken in holistically. - Susan R. Lin Susan R. Lin Click to tweet

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Our experience of wine, music, the arts and everything in life is, to a degree, subjective. - Susan R. Lin Susan R. Lin Click to tweet

 

About Susan R. Lin

Susan R. Lin is a Master of Wine and a Master of Fine Arts in Classical Piano and Musicology. She creates memorable experiences through music and wine. Susan approaches her craft through an interdisciplinary lens, forged by her background as a high-tech program manager, performing arts program developer, and classical pianist and dancer. Susan is also the Head of Wine Expertise for San Francisco-based boutique fine wine retailer Belmont Wine Exchange, providing personalized concierge services for clients worldwide.

Susan’s MW research paper ‘Influences of Classical Music on the Sensory Perception of a Brut Non-Vintage Champagne’ and subsequent work on the interaction of music and wine have been featured in Decanter, Food & Wine, GuildSomm, and others. Each of Susan’s creations is rooted in academic research and inspired by a deep respect for the essence of wine and music.

 

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Thirsty for more?

  • Sign up for my free online wine video class where I’ll walk you through The 5 Wine & Food Pairing Mistakes That Can Ruin Your Dinner (and how to fix them forever!)
  • You’ll find my books here, including Unquenchable: A Tipsy Quest for the World’s Best Bargain Wines and Red, White and Drunk All Over: A Wine-Soaked Journey from Grape to Glass.
  • The new audio edition of Red, White and Drunk All Over: A Wine-Soaked Journey from Grape to Glass is now available on Amazon.ca, Amazon.com and other country-specific Amazon sites; iTunes.ca, iTunes.com and other country-specific iTunes sites; Audible.ca and Audible.com.

 

Transcript

Natalie MacLean 00:00:00 Why might a symphony night pair just as well with your wine as a heavy metal ballad? What is sonic seasoning? And how can music impact the way we experience the taste of wine and how our sensory experiences like music, taste, and atmosphere are all connected? In today’s episode, you’ll hear the stories and tips that answer those questions in our chat with Susan Lin, a Master of Wine and Master of Fine Arts in classical piano and musicology. By the end of our conversation, you’ll also discover what Susan’s grandfather taught her about fine wine and hospitality. How playing piano in hotels as a child shaped Susan’s perspective on the holistic nature of her sensory experiences. The connection between Susan’s backgrounds in tech, music,  and wine. When Susan decided to dive deeper into the intersection between music and wine. What makes a wine musical. How cross-modal correspondences impact wine tasting. Why a Brut non-vintage Champagne was Susan’s choice for her research paper for her Master of Wine. Susan’s most memorable wine and music pairing event. And how Susan set up an experiment to observe how music affected participants perceptions of the wine they were tasting.

Natalie MacLean 00:01:32 Do you have a thirst to learn about wine? Do you love stories about wonderfully obsessive people, hauntingly beautiful places, and amusingly awkward social situations? Well, that’s the blend here on the Unreserved Wine Talk podcast. I’m your host, Natalie MacLean, and each week I share with you unfiltered conversations with celebrities in the wine world, as well as confessions from my own tipsy journey. As I write my third book on this subject. I’m so glad you’re here. Now pass me that bottle, please, and let’s get started.

Natalie MacLean 00:02:15 Welcome to episode 346. Today, I’m wrapping up a special series on Canadian wines. Though, of course, they remain part of everything I do. My love for them goes on and on, as Celine would say. I’ll share my recommendations from my most recent appearance on CTV’s The Social. Many people don’t realize how many different styles of wine Canada produces. So today we’re toasting Canadian wines that rival the best in the world. And to help us taste the best is Natalie MacLean, who offers Canada’s largest wine review site at nataliemaclean.com. So, Nat, what’s the twist on why you’re recommending these particular wines today. Well, ladies, it’s time to stop being polite Canadians. And time to start bragging about our own wines because they are crushing it in the vineyard and on the world stage. I’m recommending these Canadian wines not simply as substitutes for wines from other regions, but as stand on their own rivals that often surpass them in quality and taste.

Natalie MacLean 00:03:22 So we’re starting on the East Coast with the 1365 Church Street Winery Tidal Bay from Port Williams, Nova Scotia. It’s a stunning alternative to Moscato from Italy because it delivers fresh floral aromas, a kiss of summer sweetness and a crisp ocean spray finish. It’s like someone bottled a perfect day at the beach, but without the sand in all the uncomfortable places. Serve it with zucchini fritters, cucumber dill salad, or a herbed chèvre on rye crackers. Think fresh, garden-inspired bites. It’s the kind of wine that makes you want to host a garden party. Even if your garden is just a potted basil plant and one very optimistic but pathetic tomato vine. Speaking from personal experience here. So Tidal Bay is Nova Scotia’s signature wine, and it captures the essence of the province’s maritime climate. Despite being one of Nova Scotia’s newest wineries, 1365 Church Street produces a benchmark example of this wine, with 100% estate-grown grapes that are aged in stainless steel to preserve freshness and with a wine that results in just 10% alcohol.

Natalie MacLean 00:04:33  I want to mention that you can buy this wine and all of the other wines I’m recommending today directly from the winery’s websites, or by calling them. They’ll ship the wine right to your doorstep, and this is a really important way that you can support these small family farms, as they depend on direct sales to survive. If every bottle of 100% Canadian wine adds $90 to our economy versus just $16 for an import. The industry itself contributes more than $12 billion annually to Canada, directly and indirectly through tourism, manufacturing and other industries. Who knew that patriotism could taste this good? We’re just doing our civic duty here. And side note: Nova Scotia, of course, holds a special place in my heart where I grew up. My parents were from Cape Breton. I grew up just outside of Halifax in Lower Sackville, so I would go down to Annapolis Valley for the Apple Festival. Oh God, it’s so gorgeous there. You’ve got to visit there.

Natalie MacLean 00:05:31 Where are we going next? We’re headed to the West Coast, this time with the Poplar Grove Cascadia Series Pinot Gris from the Okanagan Valley. It’s a terrific alternative to Italian Pinot Grigio, because you still get those bright citrus notes, but with a fuller texture thanks to that Okanagan sunshine. I’d pair this with Pacific Coast salmon, either grilled or smoked. This is the 30th anniversary for this family-owned winery. Tony and Barb Holler and their four sons run the winery, which practises sustainable viticulture with hand-harvested grapes, low-intervention winemaking and solar power. The family created the Cascadia Series out of necessity, following the severe frosts of 2024 that completely devastated B.C. vineyards. To continue bringing exceptional wines to Canadians, they sourced premium grapes from just across the border in Washington state. Despite the origin of the fruit, every other part of this wine’s journey from fermentation to bottling, aging and packaging happened in the province, and they kept all of their staff employed.

Natalie MacLean 00:06:40 By the way, the wine industry creates 45,000 jobs in this country, often in rural areas where it’s hard to find work. This wine is a true testament to Canadian resilience and optimism, and we can use every ounce of that that we can get. The winery has also won double gold medals in prestigious competitions hosted by Decanter magazine, as well as those in San Francisco and New York.

Natalie MacLean 0007:05 Next up, I’m taking your taste buds to Ontario. This Riesling from the Good Earth Food and Wine Company in Niagara is a stellar substitute for classic German Riesling. It’s juicy and vibrant, with notes of lemon zest, green apple and racy acidity that wakes up your senses. It’s also a beautiful expression of Niagara, showing just how well Canadian wines can hold their own next to European classics. Serve this wine with Thai dishes, tangy barbecue, or a fresh mango salad. It’s a food lover’s dream. You can also pair this with any of the dishes that the restaurant makes. Yes, they have a restaurant on-site in addition to the winery. Here’s just a sampling of what they serve: a salad of Japanese lime, cucumber, burrata, beer nuts, confit chili and shallot; mint tempura asparagus with black lemon and tomato; roasted Jiangnan chicken with baby leeks, shiitake fingerling potatoes and cauliflower purée; and pan-roasted salmon with horseradish, honey-glazed beets, green garlic and salmon roe. Oh my goodness. Let’s go now.

Natalie MacLean 00:08:15 The Good Earth Food and Wine Company was one of the first farm-to-table wineries in Niagara. Starting out as a small cooking school and working farm, over the years it’s earned a place on OpenTable’s list of Canada’s Top 100 Restaurants. When you visit, you can take cooking classes, enjoy wine on the patio with live music, get married or all three – though maybe not in that order. Also, consider visiting all of the wineries that I’m talking about today for your next vacation or weekend getaway, as they all have beautiful tasting rooms in spectacular settings. It’s like Instagram, but with better lighting, and you can actually touch and taste all the pretty things. Real life. It rocks.

Natalie MacLean 00:08:58 Drinking a wine in the place it was made will change your relationship with that wine for the rest of your life, and give you lots of great stories you can share with friends and family. Recently, this winery became part of the Carmens Group family, who kept the beloved team in place and introduced thoughtful upgrades to the venue and the capability to offer all-inclusive weddings and big events. In the summer, the patio comes to life with live music, wood-oven pizza and a welcoming vibe for both guests and their four-legged friends. Ilya is one of Canada’s top winemakers and has worked in some of Niagara’s top wineries. In 2013, Ilya and his wife Nadia followed their dream and opened Leaning Post Wines. Ilya, along with assistant winemaker Anais Ferris, crafts the Good Earth Food and Wine Company’s wines and has built an impressive selection of wines that are approachable, delicious and, most importantly, fun to drink. The Good Earth Food and Wine Company’s orange-skin-fermented Chardonnay Muscat took home double gold at the 2025 All-Canadian Wine Championships and a silver medal for the 2020 Cabernet Franc at the 2024 Ontario Wine Awards.

Natalie MacLean 00:10:16 So we’re staying in Ontario for the next wine. If you love the elegance of Burgundy, this Ontario Pinot will charm you off your socks. The Adamo Estate Pinot Noir is made from 100% estate-grown grapes that are sustainably grown in the exciting new region of Mono, Ontario. Nestled in the Hockley Valley just 45 minutes north of Toronto, the Adamo Pinot offers the same silky texture as Burgundy, but with richer notes of fresh cherries and berries. Try this with wild mushroom risotto. Roast duck glazed with cherry sauce would also be great. The bonus is that this wine, like others here today, is a fraction of the cost of wines from the comparison regions. Those wines charge premiums because they’ve been in the market a few centuries ahead of us. But the quality of these Canadian wines is equal to or, as I mentioned, better than the traditional wines in many cases. Adamo Estate is one of Ontario’s prettiest wineries, set beside the Hockley Valley Resort and Spa. Get a massage, take a beekeeping class, practice yoga, watch a movie in the vineyard and indulge in a culinary feast in their restaurant. It’s like a luxury retreat disguised as a winery. Or maybe it’s the other way around, but either way, I’m not leaving. It’s comfort, culture and countryside all in one sip.

Natalie MacLean 00:11:40  And now we’re finishing our cross-country tour with the Clos du Soleil Signature red from the Similkameen Valley in British Columbia. It’s a fantastic alternative to Bordeaux and California red wines. Their Signature red is a blend of Cabernet Sauvignon, Cabernet Franc, Merlot, Malbec and Petite Verdot. It’s bold and majestic. Essentially the Canadian Rockies in liquid form. Try this one with a grilled steak, portobello mushrooms or a wedge of aged cheddar. They farm organically and biodynamic, letting the rocky soils and mountain sunshine come through in every glass. Thus, the name Clos du Soleil. Vineyard of the sun, which sounds a heck of a lot more poetic than vineyard with really good weather. The wine has garnered many high scores from critics, and won the silver medal at the prestigious International Wine and Spirits Competition in London.

Natalie MacLean 00:12:38 Thank you for sharing these world class wines. Where can we find you online? On Instagram, I’m at Natalie MacLean Wine and my website is nataliemaclean.com

Natalie MacLean 00:12:46 Back to today’s episode. Although I don’t have a baby grand piano to give away in honour of our musical guest, I still have two copies of Decanter magazine’s new book, The Ultimate Travel Guide for Wine Lovers. If you’d like to win a copy, please email me and let me know you’d like to win. It doesn’t matter where you live, I’ll choose two winners randomly from those who contact me at [email protected]. In other bookish news, if you’re reading the paperback or e-book or listening to the audiobook of my memoir Wine Witch on Fire: Rising from the Ashes of Divorce, Defamation and Drinking Too Much, a national bestseller and one of Amazon’s best books of the year, I’d love to hear from you at natalie@natalie maclean.com. I’ll put a link in the show notes to all retailers worldwide at nataliemaclean.com/346. Okay, on with the show.

Natalie MacLean 00:13:57 Susan Lin is a Master of Wine and a Master of Fine Arts in classical piano and musicology. She creates memorable experiences through music and wine. She approaches her craft through an interdisciplinary lens, forged by her background as a high tech program manager, performing arts program developer, and as a classical pianist and dancer. Susan is also the Head of Wine Expertise for the San Francisco based boutique fine wine retailer Belmont Wine Exchange, providing personalized concierge services for clients worldwide. Susan’s Master of Wine research paper, entitled Influences of Classical Music on the Sensory Perception of a Brut non-vintage Champagne, and subsequent work on the interaction of music and wine have been featured in Decanter, Food and Wine, Guild Somm and others. Each of Susan’s creations is rooted in academic research and inspired by a deep respect for the essence of wine and music. And she joins us now from her home in San Francisco. We’re so glad you could be here with us, Susan.

Susan Lin 00:14:59 Thank you. Thank you so much, Natalie. It’s so exciting to be here with you. And I am very honoured to be included in your group of interesting people and wine. So thank you very much for that. And hello to everybody.

Natalie MacLean 00:15:12 Absolutely. We are all keen to hear your intersection between music and wine. Fascinating. Before we dive into your wine career and music, tell us about your grandpa.

Susan Lin 00:15:22 My grandpa. Yes, that’s where it all started. So my maternal grandfather, when he was living here in the United States with my grandma before they moved back to China. During my childhood, I felt really lucky that I was able to kind of grow up with them. We would often go to their home on the weekends for dinner, and all the cousins and all the aunties and uncles would get together, and the kids would always eat first. They’d be like, kids eat first, and then you get shunted off into the living room, and then the adults would have their real dinner and their real conversation. But that was when I noticed something really interesting would happen. My grandfather would start taking out bottles and something changed. He would introduce the bottles, the cork would be popped, things would be poured, and something magical started to happen. I mean, the conviviality, the mood. Everything just shifted. And I didn’t want to go into the living room. I wanted to stay and see what was happening, right. And to his credit, my grandpa was really, really just so lovely about it with me. He treated me seriously like as an adult with my interest, and he humoured me. He allowed me to take a look at the bottles because I was fascinated by the labels. Wines from Napa. Wines from Bordeaux. He had Cognacs. Bottles like that. And he would tell me everything that he knew about them, and he would let me taste them. So I was very young, very, very young. But that’s how I learned. That’s why I learned that if a good beverage, a fine beverage can really, really make a difference in how you handle hospitality and how you get people together and how you create something special. My grandfather was absolutely a paragon of hospitality, and his kindness and generosity has always stayed with me and is inspiring to me to this day, even though he is no longer with us.

Natalie MacLean 00:17:10 That’s wonderful. What a great, great start. What a warm introduction to the world of wine and other alcoholic beverages. Mine was similar but kind of opposite to you. I grew up in a Scottish family on the east coast of Nova Scotia, so that the adults would gather during and after dinner for Scottish music, but it was beer and whisky and the kids wanted to have nothing to do with it. And the noise level got louder and louder, we got in the backyard. So it kind of drove me away from it. I didn’t get into wine until my late 20s, as a result. But I love your introduction. Sounds gentle and inviting. So what did you learn from playing piano in hotels and restaurants when you were just a child?

Susan Lin 00:17:49 First of all, it was amazing. I knew I could actually make money doing something that I really loved. So that was one thing. But what I loved was that atmosphere that I had learned and that my grandfather had shown me was replaying itself in different ways in these environments, in the hotel lobbies, in these restaurants. So the people with glasses of wine and wine would be poured. There was this little ritual or the bottle would be brought out. And then things would really start going with whoever was sitting at the table. I just would watch this and just be absolutely fascinated by it. And I would talk to the bartenders and the waitstaff between my sets that I would play. And they would. They were really nice and they would share with me what their experiences were and what they liked. And I feel really grateful for those experiences, because everything in the sensory world, all of our experiences are really, really taken in holistically right. It’s not like we have oh, we’re just listening to this one thing and that’s isolated. Oh, we’re tasting this one thing. We’re smelling this one thing. And we’re seeing something. It’s all together, right. So really, it just impressed upon me what my grandfather had shown me, and I knew that it was something special. And it was I knew that it was something that I wanted to learn more about, or just somehow be a part of. And playing the piano in those situations actually was a great way for me to be a part of it.

Natalie MacLean 00:19:07 Nice intersection of music and wine and cross modalities, which we will get to hear now. You’ve had such a multifaceted journey from tech program manager to pianist and now Master of Wine. Is there a connection between all of those worlds that you see, Susan?

Susan Lin 00:19:24 Absolutely. And I love your question because  like we were just talking about with things experienced holistically, everything informs everything else in one’s life.

Natalie MacLean 00:19:33  That’s true.

Susan Lin 00:19:36 And so I think that is so important to keep in mind. As you know, we journey through life and we continue to learn. And because I feel like music was always a part of my life and everything that I learned there. And also dance was very similar as well to the discipline, the focus and not giving up even when you’re really frustrated. And then knowing when to give yourself some space so you know why you love what you do and all those different things. Making sure that you have different inputs in your life and that you don’t become too focused or monastic in that sense, so that you can apply greater learnings in life to something. And that has been really important in everything that I do. And I think it applies to whether it’s working in the corporate world or learning a new piece of music and performing under pressure. Those types of things are really synergistic. And I feel like when I have to do a presentation or run a meeting, that’s important. Again, it’s like going on stage. It’s like, okay, it’s showtime, right. It’s just a different modality and a different form of expression. But expression is very much similar, even though when you’re using words you can get very granular. But even with music and with movement, you can get extremely granular. And it’s a different way of communication. But it’s communication all the same. And I think that is the most important kind of through line, through everything that one does.

Natalie MacLean 00:20:54 Oh, you’re talking my language. I was a Highland dancer. Again not classical like you. But Highland dancing. And then I taught children how to Scottish dance. And one parent once told me, you’re not teaching these girls dancing. You’re teaching them to become the people they’ll become like, whether it’s disciplined, responsible, all the rest of it. And, you know, the past is prologue. It just carries over the work ethic, everything else. And you must be literally a master of discipline. I mean, all these studies that you’ve done are so in my mind, like, highfalutin. I can’t think of a fancier word.

Susan Lin 00:21:30 That’s a great word.

Natalie MacLean 00:21:31 But, you know, pianist and classical dancer and everything else. So I can’t wait to to get into this with you. Was there an exact moment when you became interested in the overlap between wine and music? I mean, you were introduced to it very young in terms of the situations you’ve just described. But as s you got older, was there a moment when you said, I want to dig into this overlap between wine and music?

Susan Lin 00:21:54 I don’t think there was a particular moment per se. You know how sometimes things in life, you just keep working really hard at the things that you believe in and that you want to work towards. And then suddenly there’s this synergy and this opportunity that it presents itself in your mind. All of a sudden it just happens and you’re like, whoa. So it’s sort of a slow burn, I guess, in that sense, because I never would have imagined I would have even had a career in wine or gotten into wine this much or anything like that. And so I already find this just so incredible that  I’m in this space and I’m very thankful. And the thing about the music part is that music has always been a part of my life. But when I made it through the full exam of the Masters of Wine and made it to the third and final component, the research paper, I just knew what I wanted to do. I literally just knew I. So it sort of happened. It really coalesced there. I knew that that was what I wanted to do, and I knew it was going to be a challenge to get the proposal approved because I thought, oh, people probably think this is not very measurable. Maybe it’s a little bit woo woo or something like that. But I knew from having read academic papers and such about this that there are ways to do this. And so I was like what hasn’t really been looked at? And I already knew an idea of what I wanted to focus on, but it took a lot of research and reading to get to that point. But I just think enriching sensory experiences is what life is about, right? We enjoy eating delicious foods, listening to incredible music, and all these different things, and it’s just, how can we learn more about this so that maybe we can see some trends and be able to shape those experiences in ways that are delightful and interesting to people?

Natalie MacLean 00:23:37 Yeah, and I had a guilt trip early on. Like, you know, I’m helping the hapless rich find the right Bordeaux vintage. But life’s hard, everyone works hard. And what’s the purpose, so that we also get a chance to enjoy moments of fine wine and music and enjoy being a human being once in a while as opposed to just a worker all the time. So I think it’s not frivolous, the study of this or the pursuit of it either. At least I had to convince myself of that before. So what does a wine have to be or taste like to be musical in your eyes?

Susan Lin 00:24:12 Oh, that’s so interesting. I haven’t quite been approached on that subject in that manner and I think that’s wonderful. And I think that everything is inherently musical, to be honest. Everything has an energy. Everything has a vibrance to it. Just like all of us humans are, in a way, suggestible to certain perceptions through the sensory intakes that we experience. So there’s that psychological concept of priming that you might have, and probably folks who are tuning in and have probably heard of as well. If you are exposed to one stimulus, it probably has an effect on what you’re experiencing next. It’s like when you go to a sports stadium and they play that really loud music, get everybody pumped up and all that sort of thing. And everyone’s like, yeah, they’re ready to go. Then they’re going to be excited about the game, right? So it’s all very, very much relevant here. So I guess the short answer to the question is yes, I think wine absolutely can be musical. It doesn’t have to have a requirement in any sense. It just inherently is I think.

Natalie MacLean 00:25:08 Okay, great. So can you explain what cross-modal correspondences are and why they’re significant in wine tasting. You’re getting at it already a little bit, but maybe an explanation of what cross-modal correspondences are.

Susan Lin 00:25:23 Thank you for asking about that. I love this because what is this connection between anything, right. Especially when we’re talking about music and wine. So cross-modal correspondences really is the tendency to make associations between the distinct attributes and features of one sensory modality. Here we’re talking about music and with those of another, the taste perception of wine. So the connection is intuitive. It’s experiential. And what that means really is that the associations are naturally made with the wine and the music, so that whatever associations you’re making with the music sort of cross over into that other seemingly completely different sensory realm, wine. And so that’s why we say cross-modal. It’s this concept that makes the level of association or connection between the modalities of music and wine measurable. And so that’s why this concept is really important.

Natalie MacLean 00:26:16 I always think of our senses. Our five senses. There could be more. I’ve heard of interception or  internal awareness, but I always think of them as different wires in the brain, even though that’s too simplistic. But when we’re crossing two, we’re tapping two wires together and getting a new spark because, you know, well, you talk about it. Synesthesia is that when you hear colours like you’re crossing your sight with your sound. Is that what synesthesia is or is it another cross-modal?

Susan Lin 00:26:43 Synesthesia is actually something different. I’m glad you mentioned it. So it has been suggested before that synesthesia is a key mechanism to the connection between sound and taste. But synesthesia is actually a neurological condition, whereas people actually viscerally experience taste like they’re actually tasting something in their mouth upon hearing certain auditory stimuli or sounds such as tasting acidity or something like, you know, they feel like they’re biting into a lemon when they hear a high pitched sound. That’s one example.

Natalie MacLean 00:27:14 Okay.

Susan Lin 00:27:15 So while true synesthetes actually do exist, they represent a really, really small minority of the population. I think it’s about like the last time I checked the figures about less than 2% of the population. And so it’s therefore pretty unlikely that synesthesia accounts for the vast majority of intuitive wine and music connections.

Natalie MacLean 00:27:34 Okay, interesting. We’ll get into the studies you conducted and the participants reactions, but is there a way to quantify these cross-modal correspondences, like in what we would think like a scientific study. In X percent, this happens this way. Or  is it more of a, I don’t know, an anecdotal kind of approach?

Susan Lin 00:27:58 It’s very, very data based. So it’s shown that when people are sort of made to what’s called forced choice answers, like a multiple choice test kind of thing, we’re able to see trends converge. People tend to make similar choices on a statistically significant basis for certain elements of connection. And so, for example, for the experiments that I ran for my research, I tend to use a one through nine. For example, how fresh this wine tastes, one being really not fresh at all, and nine being extremely fresh. Or, how rich or how complex also can be applied to, you know, having a similar data set to the music, like how calm or exciting the music is. One being very calm and nine being very exciting. How gentle, how powerful. So this plays into the character of what we experience in the music. And then also corresponding mapping data set on the character of the wine perception is how calm, how exciting, how gentle, how powerful. Again, one through nine. And we’re able to that and crunch that all that data. And there were so much data because I had a lot of sets to go through and to make sure that we’re balancing for everything that was happening.

Natalie MacLean 00:29:11 Okay. All right. So you explored various musical parameters like pitch, tempo, timbre in your study. Which of these parameters seem to have the most significant or strongest influence on Champagne perception?

Susan Lin 00:29:24 Actually, it’s really the combination of all those things. What was really interesting is that in music in general, you have pitch, tempo. There’s harmony, timbre and articulation. There’s also rhythm. But it was shown in a lot of previous studies that rhythm didn’t really have that much of an effect on people’s sensory perception, on taste. So I didn’t include that.

Natalie MacLean 00:29:46 Why do you think that was? That rhythm wasn’t a big factor?

Susan Lin 00:29:49 I think really what plays in is the character. Like if you account for the character of the piece calm, exciting, gentle, powerful, namely, you can kind of get those things built in because that takes care of the decibel level, volume and also rhythm. What rhythm plays into also I think is articulation. And articulation is a parameter that I did include in the study because it’s articulation is how smoothly or how percussive the melodies go in. And rhythms can play into this for sure. So it’s like, is it long phrases, long, smooth sweeping phrases, or is it really jumpy and prickly or things like that. So rhythm can really play into that. So I think it might kind of in a sense be a little bit rolled up into it.

Natalie MacLean 00:30:35 Okay. And rhythm, for those of us who are not music experts, is that just how fast or slow the song is?

Susan Lin 00:30:41 Oh, it’s not necessarily how fast or slow, but it’s is it a march? Is it like a steady beat, like one, two, one, two? Or is it like a syncopation, like jazz, like swinging things like that.

Natalie MacLean 00:30:53 Yeah, I’m dying to listen to some music and pop open some wine already.

Susan Lin 00:30:57 I know.

Natalie MacLean 00:30:59 I just, I want to get at what you’re talking about. I want to hear it and taste it. So again, the title of your Master of Wine research paper was very focused. It was Influences of Classical Music on the Sensory Perception of a Brut Non-Vintage Champagne. So why did you choose Brut Non-Vintage Champagne specifically, as opposed to, say, Grower Champagne or Vintage Cuvée or even another type of wine entirely?

Susan Lin 00:31:24 I know it’s a mouthful, isn’t it? The title, but that’s how academic papers go.

Natalie MacLean 00:31:28 You have to be very specific.

Susan Lin 00:31:29  And I think, like you notice, the title is that refers to a Non-Vintage Brut Champagne. So as much as I wanted to use different wines, the scope of the experiment and my budget wouldn’t allow for that. But you got to choose your scope specifically so that you can have the most robust data yielded from all the data that you collect, so that you can control the variables as much as possible and make sure that the data you’re getting and any differences between them are not caused by differences between the wines. They’re actually coming from the musical selections, the perception of musical selections versus any differences in the wines. And why Brut Non-Vintage Champagne? First of all, Champagne has a very strong and very, very significant market significance. I wanted this data to be useful. So you know what is really relevant on a global market scale. And entry level Brut Non-Vintage Champagne is something that is very globally relevant. And I had a lot of data to research to back this up, to make sure that it was something that would be worth doing. And to back up a little bit, I read so many papers from academics and researchers who had done some similar research papers on exploring sound and taste and also music and wine, and I was really kind of shocked to discover that there weren’t any papers focusing on sparkling wine. And you would think that with the addition of carbon dioxide and having that bubbly component would make a difference in terms of the sensory perception. And so I really wanted to focus on that. And hence the sparkling wine and then Champagne being globally relevant. So yeah. And after that, I had to pinpoint and choose the actual Brut Non-Vintage Champagne.

Natalie MacLean 00:33:10 And you went with which one?

Susan Lin 00:33:12 I went with the Veuve Cliquot yellow label, blue yellow label. So again, this was based on a lot of research on what Brut Non-Vintage Champagnes are really globally significant, shipped worldwide in great numbers. And also I was able to get data about the wines themselves and how consistent they are in terms of their dosage differences between different markets  et cetera, et cetera. You know, like Moet and Chandon does that for different markets. And it makes sense  but I wanted something that was really, really very, very significant. And I narrowed it down to five different ones. And I did a bunch of taste testing. I reached out to a ton of Champagne experts, and that’s the one that came down to.

Natalie MacLean 00:33:51 You were thorough. So how many bottles of Veuve Cliquot non-Vintage did you have to buy to do your research?

Susan Lin 00:33:57 Oh my gosh. So this is a good thing that happened before they got even more expensive like during the pandemic. Okay, first of all, I have to say that I am extremely glad that I really hustled and got my experiment down and approved and all my experiments done before Christmas in 2020, because I started crunching the data in January and lockdown for Covid happened after that. If I had waited till then, I would have had to scrap this. There was no way I could have done it because it would be all in-person tasting. So I’m so happy I did that.

Natalie MacLean 00:34:34 That’s good. So in the end, how many bottles did you have?

Susan Lin 00:34:36 I’m trying to remember how many bottles and I actually can’t now. But I remember I almost broke my back taking cases and cases out of my car. Because I had 71 participants overall spread out over multiple sessions so that every session would be randomized in a different way so I could try to get the data as consistently as possible. And every time I did a session, the bottles were temperature controlled and the temperature made sure that they were open at exactly the same time beforehand and all that sort of thing. So the data was captured for that to make sure that there wouldn’t be any variations that could affect the data. And also, I made sure that every case that I got was from the same batch. So there wouldn’t be variation there. You got to think about all those things.

Natalie MacLean 00:35:25 Well, the gold standard for scientific studies is double blind randomized control or whatever.

Susan Lin 00:35:30 You got it.

Natalie MacLean 00:35:31 I dropped science in high school. But so you are trying to isolate the variables so that the data actually does say something. But just for context, for those who may not know, Veuve Cliquot Non-V intage here in Canada I think is at least $75. It might be more. I’ve lost track. I don’t buy it regularly. How much is it in the United States? Just to give people a sense of how expensive this wine is?

Susan Lin 00:35:56 Right now it’s averaging like $75

Natalie MacLean 00:35:58 $75 US. So it’s got to be higher in Canadian. So that’s a lot of money.

Susan Lin 00:36:04 So I’m really glad that it wasn’t quite that expensive when I was doing this. But still you know another reason not to go for vintage brut. But I mean just for feasibility reasons. But more to the point, the non Brut Non-vintage would be more, even more commercially relevant.

Natalie MacLean 00:36:19 So and more consistent for that control variable. Whereas vintages are known for their variations and that’s what we celebrate, but not so much in science. So what is sonic seasoning? I love that term. That phrase.

Susan Lin 00:36:32 Oh gosh. What a what a fun term. It could mean a lot of different things depending on how it’s used, but in a sense it’s like, okay, well, if you’re experiencing something such as you’re tasting something like wine or food, and if you’re listening to something that might add a little bit of this or that. Like a little pizzazz here or there. Like seasoning can do. It’s more of a fun term. It’s not a scientific term, but you know you can’t always be in science. You got to get out of the ivory tower and live, right?

Natalie MacLean 00:37:01 So absolutely. Little peppery Mozart, little salty, whatever.

Susan Lin 00:37:06 And, the thing is music has so many even within one composer. Mozart, he was a human being, like all the classical composers are human beings. They experience all the emotions and all the feelings that we all do. And it comes through in their music. And so they can maybe be feeling joyful or melancholy or longing or frustrated or upset and everything in between. So the nature of the seasoning can run in many, many different ways.

Natalie MacLean 00:37:33 Wow. So you I don’t know if you earn your living this way or if it’s your main. Actually, you’re the wine consultant to a San Francisco based boutique, but you also create experiences that combine wine and music. Can you share a particularly memorable event. Who was there? Why was it memorable?

Susan Lin 00:37:51 Oh, gosh. I think one that I really, really enjoyed, that was really fun was, for the San Francisco Symphony, where I had put together a program for a special group of of subscribers and donors to celebrate the new artistic director’s curated group of music. One of them was his own composition that was making its premiere with the San Francisco Symphony that season. And I was able to put together a program that paired wines with those. And so I would speak to the wines and the music itself. We would listen and have a lively discussion about this. And at one point, I think it was so interesting, somebody asked me,  what wine would have Brahms been drinking.

Natalie MacLean 00:38:38 Its really get down.

Susan Lin 00:38:40 Yes, because these are classical music lovers. And I loved that question. And I read enough about Brahms to know that he really loved Riesling. So I was like, it’s probably going to be that. But, you know, if I was to choose, the wine we were enjoying was different. But personal preferences are always going to come out on top. But it was such a fascinating discussion on what we would say would go based on the data, but then you can’t separate that entirely from the subjective, right? Our experience of wine and music and the arts and everything in life is, to a degree, subjective. And that’s important. That’s important to our enjoyment. And that really struck home to me as sort of like, okay, yeah, what would the composer have liked to drink? Because that was his preference. But why did I choose the particular wine that was which was very contrasting to that. And going through that meaning. We can go these directions, the other directions. But, you know, it made me it just really, really hone in on the fact that long lived the mystery. It’s always a combination of these things. We can try to apply as much quantitative of data to tease out trends and other things like that. But in the end, there’s always going to be that we don’t quite know. And that’s what makes life worth living.

Natalie MacLean 00:39:52 Indeed. Absolutely. Did anyone ask about Metallica?

Susan Lin 00:39:56 Oh, not at that session, but I kind of wish they had.

Natalie MacLean 00:39:59 Not that crowd, I guess.

Susan Lin 00:40:01 But you know what? It can be because Johann Sebastian Bach’s music and  metal are so closely intertwined.

Natalie MacLean 00:40:09 Really? How do you explain? Both those genres.

Susan Lin 00:40:13 The folks at Metallica and other groups like Black Label Society, like Zakk Wylde, these guitarists, these musicians. When we study their shredding, their solo and everything, you’re just like, oh my God, it’s that mode. It’s that scale. They studied Bach? You could hear it. I mean, it’s incredible. It’s incredible what they do. And I have the utmost respect for them. And I really was always encouraging a Bach goth night at the symphony to bring people together, because it’s, I like to say it’s whether my Brahms is  your Metallica or vice versa. Music can make such a difference in what you’re feeling, right? And then hence, if you’ve got a glass of wine, what you’re tasting in that glass, right? So I’ve actually done a few experiments with heavy metal because I know a group of folks who are heavy metal, much more connoisseur than I am. And, and it’s a really interesting things. And so because people feel a lot of things and there are ballads in metal and, you know, it’s not just kind of your typical really assertive sound all the time. It can be really soulful, too. And, and I noticed a lot of use of medieval melodies and folk songs in the ballads. So yeah, not too far of a distance between Brahms and Metallica in that sense.

Natalie MacLean 00:41:31 I will have to listen more carefully next time. Can you tell us or walk us through the moment when you first observed your participants in your study describing the same wine differently based on the music. What did they say and what were you thinking or feeling?

Susan Lin 00:41:47 Yeah, so this was really amazing in every session that I did. Let’s see how this unfolded. So the participants had no idea what this was about. They just knew there was going to be wine and music. They didn’t know what kind of wine, what kind of music or anything. And they each had five glasses in front of them. And basically we just started from there. And it was so interesting to see it in full. People describing each wine so dramatically differently based on the music that was being played. And there was one control. There was a silence, one where people tasted the wine in silence versus with one of the pieces of music that was carefully selected for the experiment. And there was about 50/50. I was really fortunate that the demographics of the experiment turned out overall to be about like 50/50 wine experts and non-experts, meaning people in industry. Students in the  Masters of  Wine program, Masters of Wine, Master Somms. Really, really great folks in the industry, to people who just enjoy wine but don’t really study it. So it was interesting to see the very similar reactions going along. And there was this discussion at the end. But, you know, just even while people were tasting and listening to the music, it was just fascinating to watch them because you would see for the fast, joyful pieces,  like the same song,  Carnival of the Animals, people were kind of bopping around, dancing around in their seats and looking joyful. And then the Debussy piece with the harp was just so calming. And you would see people actually kind of start going zen like some people would close their eyes and looked like they were going into meditation as they had the glass in front of them. And it was so amazing to see how we are affected by music and how we react to music. And so it was to be revealed later how that would affect, if at all, what was experienced in the glass and perceived in the glass.

Natalie MacLean 00:43:37 These people were tasting five glasses of the same wine, the Veuve Clicquot Non-Vintage. And they did not know this.

Susan Lin 00:43:41  Yes. They did not know that.

Natalie MacLean 00:43:43 How did you prevent them from guessing or like people getting suspicious? Are you trying to trick us or or did they just accept the point blank?

Susan Lin 00:43:52 Because they came in not knowing anything and I really just welcomed them and I said thank you so much for being here. We’re just going to go through this little tasting. And just to get your thoughts on the wines with the music. And I’m certainly not here to trick anybody. Because it was really like is there any effect. I mean, can we measure anything from this? I had to be perfectly prepared to write a paper that said, nope, there’s nothing or whatever. Just the data would have to speak for itself and go from there. But these are smart people, right? So I’m sure there are a lot of people who are like what’s going on here or whatever, right? But it was fascinating to see people talk about each wine like they were just completely different wines.

Natalie MacLean 00:44:32 Wow. Did anybody clue in that maybe even two of the wines were the same wine, or did everybody accept that they were five different Champagnes?

Susan Lin 00:44:42 Everybody was really, really conscientious about taking each wine and each sort of combination of music and and wine at face value, which I really, really, truly appreciate because that’s how I would approach it too. I mean, just each one in sincerity by itself. But there was one person who at the end he came up and he said, oh, I know what you did there. He was a Master of Wine. His name was Matt Deller. He actually was my mentor for a little while in the beginning of my studies, and it was so cool that he came and supported me and being a part of this. But he told me later and I didn’t know this, that he had drunk so much Veuve Cliquot so in his university years that he knew it so well.

Natalie MacLean 00:45:24 Wow. Trust fund baby.

Susan Lin 00:45:26 I was just like whoa, really? No, I was like that’s impressive. But he’s also known to be an incredible taster in a way that’s almost clinical. It’s like, I don’t know how. But like, is this real? But it was incredible. He was the only one. Even he said, even though I knew this was all Veuve Clicquot, I felt different thing with each of the pieces, he said. I couldn’t escape that. It’s real. That’s great.

Natalie MacLean 00:45:54 Well, that itself is an interesting observation to that. Even if he knew.

Susan Lin 00:45:58 Yeah, exactly.

Natalie MacLean 00:46:05 Well, there you have it. I hope you enjoyed our chat. Here are my takeaways. Number one. Why might a Symphony night pair just as well with your wine as a heavy metal ballad? Susan says she was always encouraging a Bach goth night at the symphony to bring people together.  She likes to say, whether my Brahms is your Metallica or vice versa, music can make such a difference in what you’re feeling. Hence, if you’ve got a glass of wine, what you’re tasting in that glass may also change. She’s done experiments with heavy metal and people felt a lot of things. There are also ballads in metal, she notes. It’s not just your typical assertive sound all the time. It can sound really soulful, too. And she noticed the use of medieval melodies and folk songs in these heavy metal ballads that are really nice. So not such a far distance after all between Brahms and Metallica.

Natalie MacLean 00:47:01 Number two. What is sonic seasoning and how can music impact the way we experience the taste of wine? Susan explains that if you’re listening to something that might add a little bit of pizzazz here or there to your wine, it can do that like seasoning can for food. It’s more of a fun term, not a scientific term, that she created. All classical composers experienced all of the emotions and feelings that we do, and it comes through in their music. Maybe they’re feeling joyful or melancholy or longing or frustrated or upset. Everything in between that comes through in the music and will impact us. So the nature of that sonic seasoning is that it can run in many different ways.

Natalie MacLean 00:47:38 And number three. How our sensory experiences like music, taste and, atmosphere are all connected. Susan observed during one of her performances how the moods of the guests change depending on what she played. Everything in the sensory world, all of our experiences are really taken in holistically. It’s not like we listen to one thing and that’s isolated but we’re tasting something; we’re listening to something; we’re smelling something; we’re seeing something else. It’s all together. She knew that this was something special and she wanted to learn more about it. Playing the piano in those situations actually was a great way for her to be part of all of it.

Natalie MacLean 00:48:23 In the show notes, you’ll find a full transcript of my conversation with Susan, links to her website and the video versions of these conversations on Facebook and YouTube live, as well as where you can find my book online now, no matter where you live. If you missed episode 218, go back and take a listen. I chat about how music changes wines taste and how restaurant table shapes influence how much we eat. With New York Times writer Nell McShane Wulfhart. I’ll share a short clip with you now to whet your appetite.

Nell McShane Wulfhart 00:48:56 The music itself is pretty complex, and these different tones and pitches of the kind of music you can hear, whether it’s fast or slow, whether it’s like a brass band that highlights the umami taste. It’s just impossible to do that with something that only has one note. Wine is like such a good way to play around with this other sense, because it’s so complex and it has so much going on. You really can identify multiple different components of a glass of wine by changing the music that’s playing in the background.

Natalie MacLean 00:49:29 You won’t want to miss next week when we continue our chat with Susan. If you liked this episode or learned even one thing from it, please tell one friend about the podcast this week, especially someone you know who’d be interested in learning more about the intersection between wine and music. It’s easy to find the Unreserved Wine Talk podcast. Just tell them to search for Natalie MacLean Wine on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, their favourite podcast app, or they can listen to my show on my website at nataliemaclean.com Just email me if you have a sip, tip question, or would like to win one of two copies of the books I have to give away. I’d love to hear your thoughts on this episode, or if you’ve read my book or listening to it. Email me at [email protected].

Natalie MacLean 00:50:25 In the show notes, you’ll find a link to take my free online food and wine pairing class called The Five Food and Wine Pairing Mistakes that Can Ruin Your Dinner and How to Fix Them Forever at nataliemaclean.com/class. And that’s all in the show notes at nataliemaclean.com/346. Thank you for taking the time to join me here. I hope something great is in your glass, perhaps a wine that pairs perfectly with both Mozart and Metallica? You don’t want to miss one juicy episode of this podcast, especially the secret full bodied bonus episodes that I don’t announce on social media. So subscribe for free now at nataliemaclean.com/subscribe. Meet me here next week. Cheers!

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