Tuscan White Wines, Vin Santo and Spirited Sangiovese with Susan Keevil

Natalie MacLean
Mar19th

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Introduction

What makes Sangiovese a difficult wine to grow and make? Why should you pay attention to the white wines of Tuscany? What do you need to know about Tuscany’s Vin Santo?

In this episode of the Unreserved Wine Talk podcast, I’m chatting with Susan Keevil

You can find the wines we discussed here.

 

Giveaway

Two of you are going to win a copy of her terrific book, On Tuscany: From Brunello to Bolgheri, Tales from the Heart of Italy.

 

How to Win

To qualify, all you have to do is email me at [email protected] and let me know that you’ve posted a review of the podcast.

It takes less than 30 seconds: On your phone, scroll to the bottom here, where the reviews are, and click on “Tap to Rate.”

After that, scroll down a tiny bit more and click on “Write a Review.” That’s it!

I’ll choose two people randomly from those who contact me.

Good luck!

 

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Join the live-stream video of this conversation on Wednesday at 7 pm eastern on Instagram Live Video, Facebook Live Video or YouTube Live Video.

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Highlights

  • What are some common mistakes people make when comparing Tuscan wines to those from other regions?
  • What are Super Tuscans and how did they come to be?
  • Why did these rebel wines capture the imagination of the world in the 70s and 80s?
  • What’s the new Super Tuscan counter culture about?
  • Why did Brunello di Montalcino achieve icon status?
  • What makes Sangiovese difficult to grow and why doesn’t it tend to thrive in North America?
  • What motivated Susan to include sections on Tuscan white wines and Vin Santo in the book?
  • How is Vin Santo made and why is there so much variety?
  • What makes Tuscan olive oil so special?
  • How can you best pair Tuscan wines with food?
  • Why would Susan love to be able to share a bottle of wine with Queen Elizabeth II?

 

Key Takeaways

  • What makes Sangiovese a difficult wine to grow and make?
    • Susan notes that Sangiovese is like Pinot Noir in that it likes certain terroir, particular soils, the winds of Tuscany, and it is quite a sensitive grape. You can’t overproduce it. It responds differently to different sites and it’s not good in every vintage. It has so many parallels with Pinot Noir. They don’t taste the same, but they behave the same.
  • Why should you pay attention to the white wines of Tuscany?
    • Susan likes an underdog story like the white wines of Tuscany, because they’re only like 10% of the wines produced, though she believes that the Trebbiano grape is like the evil twin. In the book, Emily O’Hare writes about grapes like Vernaccia, Vermentino and Ansonica that are producing some great wines so we should watch out for them. There’s another lovely story about wines of the small island called Giglio. It was raided by the pirate Barbarossa, and he sent all the inhabitants away to be slaves in Constantinople. But he brought back people from a village in Greece, and they bought the grape called Ansonica with them and so those vines are still on the island today. Susan thinks white wines are going to be more important for Tuscany.
  • What do you need to know about Tuscany’s Vin Santo?
    • If you’re going to find a comparison, Susan says that Tokaji is a really good one, because it has that bracing acidity that the Italians love as well. But also, you can’t generalize with it. It’s a 3,000 year-old-wine, and every farm makes a different version. In the past, they used to collect these grapes because they couldn’t handle all the olives and all the grapes all at once. So they would leave some of the grapes in the drying lofts, up in the roofs. They would dry, and concentrate, and the sugars would get sweeter. When everything settled in November or March or February, they would make a wine from these beautiful sweet grapes. And they all have their own natural yeast from the air. And they would seed that yeast into the wine, ferment, and then they would lock it up in its barrel and leave it for seven to eight years. It would shrink, it would ferment. It would stop fermenting. And then at the end of that time, they would open the barrel very carefully, and it was something magnificent, but very, very different. Each producer would have their own.

 

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Sassicaia was frowned upon to start with, but pretty soon realized that the quality was there. - Susan Keevil Susan Keevil Click to tweet

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Sangiovese is quite a sensitive grape and you can’t overproduce it. - Susan Keevil Susan Keevil Click to tweet

 

About Susan Keevil

Susan Keevil is the Editorial Director of Académie du Vin Library, where she has played a pivotal role in establishing and nurturing this esteemed wine publishing house. A former editor of Decanter magazine, she has dedicated her career to the world of wine, from editorial leadership to in-depth exploration of the industry.

A former Master of Wine student, Susan successfully completed the theory papers, and while she didn’t pursue the final stage, her deep knowledge and enthusiasm for wine remain central to her work. She has a particular love for curating wine anthologies, bringing together the works of her favourite wine writers into beautifully crafted books that celebrate the culture and stories behind fine wine.

 

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  • The new audio edition of Red, White and Drunk All Over: A Wine-Soaked Journey from Grape to Glass is now available on Amazon.ca, Amazon.com and other country-specific Amazon sites; iTunes.ca, iTunes.com and other country-specific iTunes sites; Audible.ca and Audible.com.

 

Transcript

Automatically Transcribed With Podsqueeze

Natalie MacLean 00:00:00 What makes Sangiovese such a difficult wine to grow and make? Why should you pay attention to the white wines of Tuscany? And what do you need to know about Tuscany’s Vin Santo? In today’s episode, you’ll hear the stories and tips that answer those questions. In Part Two of our chat with Susan Keevil, editor of the new beautiful book On Tuscany: From Brunello to Bolgheri, Tales from the Heart of Italy. You don’t need to have listened to Part One from last week first, but if you missed it, go back and have a listen after you finish this. By the end of our conversation, you’ll also discover common mistakes people make when comparing Tuscan wines to those from other regions. What Super Tuscans are and how they came to be. Why these rebel wines captured the imagination of the world in the 1970s, and 80s.What the new Super Tuscan counterculture is all about. How Brunello di Montalcino achieved icon status. What makes Tuscan olive oil so special. How you can pair Tuscan wines with food, And why Susan would love to share a bottle of wine with Queen Elizabeth II.

Natalie MacLean 00:01:17 Do you have a thirst to learn about wine? Do you love stories about wonderfully obsessive people, hauntingly beautiful places, and amusingly awkward social situations? Well, that’s the blend here on the Unreserved Wine Talk podcast. I’m your host, Natalie MacLean, and each week I share with you unfiltered conversations with celebrities in the wine world, as well as confessions from my own tipsy journey as I write my third book on this subject. I’m so glad you’re here. Now pass me that bottle, please, and let’s get started.

Natalie MacLean 00:02:00 Welcome to episode 329. So recently I was on CTV’s morning live show. Canada may have been built on beer and whiskey, but on National Wine Day we raise a glass or two to wine. It’s become the drink of choice for many, and so we’re going to uncork some fascinating facts about this ancient beverage that dates back more than 8000 years. For each wine we tasted on the segment, I shared a fact or fiction about wine, and the host had to guess whether it was true or false. And then I revealed the answer. Now let’s see how many of these you can guess correctly.

So we started with the alcohol-free Noughty sparkling wine with its aromas of fresh peach, green apple from Germany that’s available from softcrush.ca. Here’s a wine fact or fiction for you to consider: The ancient Romans used lead-lined vessels to sweeten their wine. True or false? It’s absolutely true. The Romans had a sweet tooth, but they unknowingly poisoned themselves in the process. Oops. Thankfully, we have far better winemaking methods today.

Natalie MacLean 00:03:10 Next up, I had the beautiful Pelee Pink Rosé from Pelee Island, Ontario. This Rosé bursts with aromas of wild strawberries and watermelon, with a crisp, dry finish that’s perfect for sipping solo or pairing with whatever you’ve got going on. I’d actually pair it with Blush of Dawn—that sounds like a romance novel, doesn’t it? Anyway, it’s actually a dish I imagined: poached salmon with a drizzle of citrus-infused olive oil, served alongside a delicate fennel and grapefruit salad that wakes up the palate with its refreshing brightness.

Natalie MacLean 00:03:49 Here’s your next question. White wine can be made from red grapes. True or false? That is true. If you remove the skins early, even red grapes can make white wine. That’s exactly how blanc de noir, white from dark grapes, Champagne is made. Using Pinot Noir Pinot for Rosé, you leave the juice in contact with the skins because that’s where all the colour is for a little while, until you achieve the exact shade of pink that you want.

I had another beautiful bottle of Rosé from the Languedoc in southern France. If a summer breeze had a taste, this would be it. The Côte des Roses Rosé from Gérard Bertrand has delicate notes of red berries, citrus zest, and just a whisper of floral aromatics—light, lively, and as effortless as a French scarf toss. I’d pair this with Sunset Glow, a dish of grilled shrimp kissed with lemon and garlic, set atop a bed of quinoa and roasted red peppers that add a smoky depth to each bite.

Natalie MacLean 00:04:56 Moving on to a bold red from Ontario. The Best in Show Cabernet Sauvignon from Pelee Island has been getting rave reviews from critics and scores of 95 points—and it’s only 13 bucks at the LCBO right now. It’s rich with notes of black currant, dark chocolate, and a hint of cedar spice. I’d pair it with Velvet Embrace (that’s the sequel to Blush of Dawn in my romance series, apparently): a dish of herb-crusted lamb chops, oven-roasted to tender perfection—I’ve always loved tenderloins—accompanied by a warm beet and goat cheese salad, drizzled with balsamic reduction.

Natalie MacLean 00:05:26 Now, here’s a tricky question for you. The most expensive bottle of wine ever sold was a 1945 Domaine Romanée-Conti, that’s the famous Burgundian Pinot Noir, fetching an astounding $58,000 at auction in 2018. True or false? I made this one extra tricky. That wine did sell for the highest ever price in 2018, but it wasn’t 58,000. It was 558,000. Holy crow, that vintage is legendary, 1945 the victory vintage at the end of the Second World War. And with only a few bottles in existence, the price skyrocketed at auction. But you don’t need to spend a fortune to enjoy a fabulous bottle of wine. As I’ve just noted with Best in Show.

Natalie MacLean 00:06:20 Do you think the following is true or false? Dutch inventors adapted military bullet removal tools to create the first corkscrews in the 17th century. This is true, and it’s a reminder that some battles are worth fighting for and some are better resolved over a glass of wine. Now everybody just calm the heck down.

Next up is an elegant rosé from Provence. Miraval is fresh and lively, with notes of wild strawberries, white peach, and a touch of saline minerality. It’s made by the famous Perrin family, who also produce Château de Beaucastel. And yes, owners Brad Pitt and Angelina Jolie originally purchased it—Brad is now the majority shareholder after their split. I would pair this with Coastal Dream: a dish of seared scallops with a squeeze of Meyer lemon, nestled in a bed of arugula and shaved Parmigiano-Reggiano, bringing a harmonious balance of richness and brightness.

Natalie MacLean 00:07:25 The indentation. Here’s the question: The indentation at the bottom of a wine bottle, called a punt, was originally designed to trap sediment. True or false? That, my friend, is false. The punt actually helped strengthen hand-blown glass bottles back in the day. Today, it’s more of a stylistic choice. Miraval has quite a deep punt, and our final wine is the Etter Marquette from Clos de Vully in Navan. It’s a smooth, medium-bodied red with tart cherry notes. My final advice when it comes to choosing the perfect wine? There are no right or wrong answers. Just drink what you like.

All right, so next up, I’ll be doing segments about drinks for spring. Easter. Earth day, Mother’s day, Father’s day, barbecue, and Canada Day. So if you have wine, spirits, beer, cocktail or mixed drinks to suggest that I feature whether they’re alcoholic or not, please let me know. Meanwhile, back on the ranch, I’m still reviewing my favourite wines on Instagram, so why not head over there? Mosey on over. I’m at Natalie MacLean wine. See you there, pardner. Back to today’s guest. Two of you will win copies of Susan’s beautiful new book on Tuscany, From Brunello to Bulgari.

Natalie MacLean 00:08:47 Back to today’s guest. Two of you will win copies of Susan’s beautiful new book On Tuscany: From Brunello to Bolgheri, Tales from the Heart of Italy. I also still have two copies of Fiona Morrison’s book Ten Great Wine Families: A Tour Through Europe, and two of Rosemary George’s book, The Wines of Languedoc. These are gorgeous books with full colour photos and maps. All you have to do is email me to tell me you’d like to win. I’ll choose six winners randomly from those who contact me at [email protected]. Okey dokey. On with the show.

Natalie MacLean 00:09:21 Victoria Moore, one of your writers and one of my favourite writers, says don’t bring Bordeaux into it in her chapter. What are some of the common mistakes that people make when they compare Tuscan wines to those from other regions, whether it’s Bordeaux or elsewhere?

Susan Keevil 00:09:36 It’s something about the acidity and the freshness of these wines, especially Chanti that just goes with food, and they are made to go with food. And perhaps people don’t understand that they’re not wine first, but that they’re not wine first in some ways. That’s what Victoria says, that they are about food. And so if you go into a Tuscan restaurant, don’t choose to drink Bordeaux or Australian Shiraz., choose a local wine and choose Chanti.

Natalie MacLean 00:09:59 Yeah, like that adage what goes together, grows together. The acidity, the soil components.

Susan Keevil 00:10:05 Yes. It’s the acidity that makes it sort of makes the wine live on your palate as you’re eating the food. The wine is still there side by side. I think it’s so important. That’  the thing about all Italian wines, their food first.

Natalie MacLean 00:10:18 Absolutely, absolutely. So you dedicate significant space to the rise of the Super Tuscans or Turbo Tuscans. What was it about the traditional regulations that spurred the creation of these Super Tuscans? Tell us what they are and kind of how they came to be.

Susan Keevil 00:10:35 I think it was probably thought too restrictive, and especially the fact that the white grape Trebbiano. I mean, there was always with Chanti, they would always blend it into the recipe. Chianti was always going what was included. Then they upped it to 30% so as much as 30% alongside the red. And that became written into the DOC. And a lot of people didn’t like that. You know, we don’t really want to add white grapes, and they’re not helping. These are Trebbiano grapes. It’s no longer our sort of native white grapes. Trebbiano was one of them. It’s this clone displaying that that as I was saying, subsequent blocks are chosen. It’s great with grafting, but it’s not so great at producing a lovely wine. And we’re having to blend it this into our Chiantis and we don’t want to. So that’s when they kind of thought, well, we’re going to be different here. We’re going to buck the trend and we’re not going to use the new DOC regulation. We’re going to be a Tavola. We’re just going to be a table wine, but we’re going to bring in Cabernet Sauvignon. We’re going to bring in Merlot. We’re going to make something different to more luscious. And that was the start. You could say it started even with Pietro Antinori. And that was as far back as 1904. Similarly, he was wondering why are my Chiantis not as luscious I want them to be? I really like the wines of Bordeaux. And how about this, I’ve got a case of Lafite here, Chateau Lafite. I’m going to see if I can blend the two. So we’ve got a cellar master – this is all told by Hugh Johnson in the book – that he and his master got together. I’m going to blend in Cabernet Sauvignon. This is going to be the way forward. And he got his cousin the grapes and Cabernet vines.

Natalie MacLean 00:12:06 Wow. And of course, Antinori is the one. He eventually produced Tignanello, one of the Super Tuscans. And then there was Sassicacea, who was so successful that it got its own DOC, its own appellation or region, right?

Susan Keevil 00:12:23 That’s right. So they are enormously successful now. And I think they were frowned upon to start with. But people pretty soon realized that the quality was there. And yes, it was Sassicacea in 1968 and Tignanello in 1971. And then there was La Pergola Torte, which is just Sangiovese. There was a way back towards just using Sangiovese, which is rather lovely.

Natalie MacLean 00:12:44 That’s cool. And I guess the wines spoke for themselves. Then the prices started to escalate and yet they were labeled as lowly table wines. So eventually, I guess, the regulators realized these are not lowly table wines gave Sassicacea its own DOC. How come the other ones didn’t get their own DOC? Because they are blended on family farms with other ranges of DOC  wines?

Susan Keevil 00:13:07 I guess that must be it. Yes. And they must have felt also they didn’t need their own dock because they were way beyond that. I think the authorities might have tried to keep up with the DOCG, but they were like, no, we don’t need that. We’re above that. So but that’s Italy, isn’t it?

Natalie MacLean 00:13:23 No one’s following the rules ever. And why do you think, aside from quality, of course, why do you think these rebel wines captured the imagination around the world in the 70s and 80s?

Susan Keevil 00:13:35 I think it’s because they’re just so beautiful and so because of the rebel nature as well. There was also  massive fashion for this sort of wine because we had Robert Parker, his sort of new way of thinking about wine.

Natalie MacLean 00:13:47 Right. The US critic who gave the Bordeaux vintage of 1982, like 100 points. He was alleged to love fruit bombs. He sort of denied that. But he did love powerful wines. So these would fit right in with that.

Susan Keevil 00:14:00 Yes, they did. And they were powerful. And everybody really admired them.

Natalie MacLean 00:14:05 Absolutely. And then Jane Anson, who has wrote most famously on Bordeaux, but also in your book, discusses the new Super Tuscan counterculture. Was that just a reversion back to Sangiovese or the old rules? What was the counterculture to this?

Susan Keevil 00:14:20 It’s going back to Sangiovese. And not just Sangiovese. It’s some of the other supporting actors. Malvasia Nero is other black grapes that are local to the region. And the people sort of started researching them and finding that they did work and they did support Sangiovese. You could kind of up the quota of other grapes. And that’s how Chianti would have really been made. You know, if one grape has a poor year you kind of matching with another one. So the counterculture is celebrating that. Its a Super Tuscan style of wine but with custom grapes.

Natalie MacLean 00:14:52 And this may seem a naive question, but you talk about red and black grapes. Is it just darker skins? Where do you cut that off. Is Sangiovese a red grape or a black grape?

Susan Keevil 00:15:02 I think they are supposed to be black grapes but they produce red wine.

Natalie MacLean 00:15:05 Okay. Black grapes for red wine. What about red grapes? What do they make? Or are there red grapes?

Susan Keevil 00:15:11 There are red grapes. Oh, maybe it’s me. Sorry.

Natalie MacLean 00:15:14 No, no, no, I think you’re right. But I’ve heard them differentiated before. Maybe it’s just, I don’t know.

Susan Keevil 00:15:20 I don’t know about the differentiation. I think they’re the same.

Natalie MacLean 00:15:23 Well, it’s good. Someone will type in the comments for sure. Don’t worry. Okay, so you’ve already touched on this, but I’d like to go back to it. The fascinating story of the rise of Brunello di Montalcino. Why do you think this particular wine achieved such iconic status? How did it rise? Was it the… remind me of the winery that you said had bricked it up, and then brought it out to everybody to show how well it could age? Which winery was that?

Susan Keevil 00:15:48 The wine of the Biondi family. And they’re the ones that really sort of took hold of this wine and made it fly almost single handedly I’d say. It’s not a big region. It’s just a hill, basically. And it’s cut off. In 1964, they built a motorway bypassing this mountain and this hill, and it sort of became its own wine enclave. That was sort of quite forgotten about until the Biondi Santi family just sort of. Well,  they’ve been working at Brunello for a long time, and they’ve been careful enough after phylloxera to find the clones that would really work. And then they got their Sangiovese clones that they really believed in, and that made great wines. And they had an eye for detail all along. And they’re the ones that kind of assured that this wine was bigger in stature than perhaps Chianti at the time. And so they believed in it. They believed in Sangiovese was a great. They didn’t need to blend it with others. They just knew that it was going to work on its own. They made sure that they got the name of their wine out. They got the wines out into the. I think there were some various dinners in the 70s that they took them to. They made sure that they came to London. I know that there was a dinner with the Queen. And so people began to talk about their wines. And then the other growers began to think to have a little more faith in their vineyards. Well, you know, we can do this too.

Natalie MacLean 00:17:10 Well, it’s interesting that both Brunello and Chianti are based on the Sangiovese grape, but is there a clonal? Are they identical grapes just made in different styles?

Susan Keevil 00:17:19 Not quite identical, although we have a. I have a wonderful piece by a lovely upcoming author. She’s a really young author, Sophie Thorpe, and she has researched because it was thought that they had a completely different, separate clone in Brunello for Brunello. But it’s not. It is the same. It’s the same. It was just that particular strain that. They were probably more clever in selecting their vines.

Natalie MacLean 00:17:46 And why was it referred to as Blood of Jove?

Susan Keevil 00:17:49 That’s to do with the Roman name. They love Sangiovese wine, since they’re the ones that named it after their grape god. I mean, Jove was the equivalent of Greek god Zeus. So all powerful. And so it was a great honour to be the blood of Jove.

Natalie MacLean 00:18:05 Now that’s interesting to know. And yet, Sangiovese was a difficult wine to grow and make. Some people compare it to Pinot Noir. What do you think make it so challenging? And why doesn’t it tend to thrive, say, in North America very well?

Susan Keevil 00:18:18 I don’t know. It is, as you say, like it’s certain terroir. And it obviously likes the winds of Tuscany and it likes the particular soils. And it is quite a sensitive grape. You can’t overproduce it. It’s exactly. It responds well to different sites and prompts differently, to sit different, but it’s not good in every vintage. It’s got so many parallels with Pinot Noir that it’s a little more robust. But I don’t know, I think there’s a lot in common. They don’t taste the same, but they behave the same.

Natalie MacLean 00:18:46 And if Sangiovese were a character in a play or a TV show or a movie, what role would Sangiovese play?

Susan Keevil 00:18:56 Gosh, it’s a bit of a Prince Charming. I think it’s got a long. It’s got aristocracy. It’s got that royal connection. It’s a different. A lot of  Ivy League hockey players have come in and taken over and sort of won the limelight and it’s gone. It’s been overshadowed by these wonderful players and then suddenly discovered that actually, you know what, me and my cousins can get together in this band and we can be better than new hockey players. It’s a little bit like that or it’s not. Maybe you could use the Pinot Noir analogy and it’s like an actor, but not the most beautiful obviously. It’s not the Brad Pitt. It’s not Chris Hemsworth. It’s Adrien Brody. Somebody a bit more.

Natalie MacLean 00:19:37 A character actor?

Susan Keevil 00:19:39 Yes.  I love to think of a nice Shakespeare, but that would sum it up.

Natalie MacLean 00:19:44 Hamlet or something, always asking the questions. Will I grow or won’t I grow? That’s the question. I’ll decide later. So what motivated you to include sections on both white wines and the Vin de Santo, the sweet wines of Tuscany, when, as you say, it’s primarily known for reds.

Susan Keevil 00:20:02 I like an underdog story, and the white wines are definitely an underdog in Tuscany. So there’s that side of it. You know, people didn’t mention them in passing. And, of course, the horrible Trebbiano like the evil twin. But then this lovely author, another young ex sommelier now living in Tuscany, Emily O’Hare, she said I can write about the white wines in Tuscany. So she has this wonderful piece. She talks about the story I was talking about earlier about Francesco D’Aftini, whose manuals were discovered behind this chimney and the way that white wine was significant. And so she talks about there are grapes like Vermentino and Ansonica that are really going great ones and then really producing some interesting wines at the moment. So we should really watch out for them. Oh, I think there was another lovely story about wines of the Little Islands island called Giglio. It was raided by the pirate Barbarossa, and he unfortunately sent all the inhabitants of the island away to be slaves in Constantinople, but he brought back some Greek people from a village in Greece. And they bought this grape called Ansonica with them. And those vines are still there today on this island, and so they produce a really lovely wine. I kind of like that little story, although a bit brutal.

Natalie MacLean 00:21:16 A lot of history is brutal.

Susan Keevil 00:21:19 That’s right. So I think white wines are going to be more important. But Tuscany but also Vin Santo. You can’t have a whole  book without mentioning Vin Santo. I think David Gleave told me that. And he is our mentor through this. This book he has written the foreword to the book.

Natalie MacLean 00:21:37 The sweet wine, how does that taste? Would you compare it to Hungary’s Tokaji? I know it is its own thing, but how would you describe it?

Susan Keevil 00:21:45 I think if you’re going to find a comparison, Tokaji is a really good one because it definitely has that bracing acidity that the Italians love as well. But also you can’t really generalise with it. It’s a 3000 year old wine, but every farm makes a different version. And it’s all to do with the fact that they collect these grapes. In the old days, they used to collect them because they couldn’t quite handle all the olives and all the grapes all at once. So they would leave some of the grapes in the drying lofts up in the roofs. And they would dry and they would concentrate, the sugars would get sweeter. And  then, when everything is settled a little bit in November or maybe March or February, they would make a wine from these beautiful sweet grapes. And they all have their own yeast, their own natural yeast that would be in the air, and they would see that sort of yeast into the wine ferment. And then they would lock it up in its barrel and leave it for 7 to 8 years. They wouldn’t look at it. It would shrink. It would ferment. It would stop fermenting. It would start again. And then at the end of that time,  they would open the barrel very carefully. And it would pickle there. It was something magnificent, but very, very different. Each producer would have their own.

Natalie MacLean 00:22:49 That sounds like sourdough starter breads.

Susan Keevil 00:22:51 Like just. Yeah, exactly, exactly. That’s right. And he said that he’s been round to the wineries and tasted everybody’s different. And you know they always say you know oh no, ours is better better than the one you just come from. And it’s much better than the one you’re going to next. Ours is the best. So it’s so interesting and it’s a wine that’s mostly ignored. And I really wish that wasn’t the case. But like all sweet wines, people don’t pay it enough.

Natalie MacLean 00:23:15 Vin de Santo, does that mean wine of the saints?

Susan Keevil 00:23:18 Yes, I mean, I think there’s a number of different versions of the tale, but I think one of the reasons is that it’s November when they start making it, and that’s when the Saints days are in November. Also, I think it’s because it’s so luscious and so gorgeous that intricate stories like that.

Natalie MacLean 00:23:33 Elixirs of the gods. Yes. So what about food? There’s some beautiful descriptions of Tuscan olive oil in this book. What makes Tuscan olive oil so special? And how does it complement the region’s wines? You’ve already mentioned groves or interspersed among vineyards, but tell us more about Tuscan oil. What’s special about it?

Susan Keevil 00:23:55 I think in the same way, I think every farm has their own wine and they have their own oil too. Tuscany is actually quite far north in terms of olive oil production. So in terms of wine, maybe the wine that grows in cooler northern regions is tends to be sort of crisper and more zingy. And the same is true with Tuscan olive oil. It’s quite bright, peppery personality with lots of vegetable flavours, and it’s just really distinctive. And it goes with the local food. Definitely. So, so yeah. So we have another lovely author, Elizabeth Berger, who writes all about Tuscan olive oil, and she describes how it’s different from that from Sicily and from further down in Puglia. It’s very important that we. And she says it’s also very important that we treat it a little bit more like wine in that we drink it from that vintage doesn’t last as long as wine, which is a difference. But it’s important to take note of of when it comes from, not just where. It does work in parallel with wine and it is made by the same people. It’s a really lovely piece that she has written.

Natalie MacLean 00:24:57 It’s best to drink it fresh. You should not age olive oil, right?

Susan Keevil 00:25:01 Definitely, definitely. You must drink olive oil fresh, but that otherwise it has a lot of similarities in terms of cultivars of olive tree and all of the things that make a difference, angle of the slope, aspect of the slope, where you planted, and all of these things will affect the character of your oil, but you’ll only really get to know those differences if you drink or taste.

Natalie MacLean 00:25:28 And I’ve heard cold pressed and extra virgin are the best types.

Susan Keevil 00:25:33 Definitely. You drink your extra virgin.

Natalie MacLean 00:25:36 And then you have Ruth Rogers writing about Tuscan food. So the connection, of course, between Tuscan wines and food is so strong. But each region will say that. What is about Tuscan wine and food? Or is there an iconic dish or two that you want to mention? Any favourite Tuscan dishes?

Susan Keevil 00:25:54 I love the bean dishes and the bistecca, And I love the way they go with food. This is what Ruth mentions in her piece. They’re really beautiful, and she talks about looking at different grape varieties and seeing what they go with, and trying not just Sangiovese, but Ciliegiolo and Canaiolo and Ansonica that I’ve mentioned. And all paired beautifully with food. Different native grapes will go with this.

Natalie MacLean 00:26:16 And is it mainly about the sauce then that differentiates the pairings? Or would it be sacrilege to say pasta’s pasta no matter what shape it comes in?

Susan Keevil 00:26:25 No no no no no, not at all. You need to read what she says. She’s very seasonal and, you know, it’s not just it’s all type of pasta that goes with the sauce and the meal that you make. The pasta with everything has an effect, and also what’s in season, the vegetables and everything that you’ve got per month. It will make a difference to the wine.

Natalie MacLean 00:26:51 I remember visiting Tuscany before I even thought about becoming a wine writer. And of course, the food they came out with. The first serving was a big tray of lasagna, so my partner and I helped ourselves. Oh, we love lasagna. And so we filled up our plate and they were encouraging us to eat. And then there was like six more courses. It was like, oh my God. And then there was a salad. And I thought, okay, I guess I eat their salad at the end of the meal, but no. Then the main dishes came out. We’re like stuffed, but felt we couldn’t say no.

Susan Keevil 00:27:26 To loosen your belt.

Natalie MacLean 00:27:27 Exactly. I was wearing my buffet pants that day. Thank goodness. So, have you discovered anything new since producing this book that you’d add to a new edition? Or is it still too fresh off the press?

Susan Keevil 00:27:43 Oh, gosh. I think it’s the native grapes of the new thing that we need to watch. And if I were to do a new edition, I would definitely look at that. Just so many discoveries going on there.

Natalie MacLean 00:27:55 Is there one in particular of these new grapes that most fascinates you?

Susan Keevil 00:28:00 Are you going to ask me to pronounce it.

Natalie MacLean 00:28:03 Oh, that sounds good to me.

Susan Keevil 00:28:05 I try. I try. But, you know, I’m not good.

Natalie MacLean 00:28:08 Is it a white or a red?

Susan Keevil 00:28:09 It’s a red. And Canaiolo is another one. And so they’re to be watched. Apparently. So those ones. But there are many more in the wings. So that’s what I would love to explore more if I were to do another edition of the my book.

Natalie MacLean 00:28:22 Absolutely. Time has flown, Susan. If you yourself could share a bottle of wine with anyone, living or dead outside the wine industry, who would that be?

Susan Keevil 00:28:32 This isn’t the most exciting stuff that I would love to share a bottle with our  late Queen Elizabeth, I think, because she met so many people and she had so many interesting, interesting experiences, and she probably had a fairly deep cellar. I’m reckoning that she could probably come up with some 1865 Etoile or something.

Natalie MacLean 00:28:53 She could probably be good for that.

Susan Keevil 00:28:54 Yeah, and probably to Monteverdini. And I think I’d love to talk about. I have dogs, as you mentioned earlier, and she was a very good dog trainer and I like to talk about.

Natalie MacLean 00:29:05 Yeah, she had the pugs, right?  Was it pugs? She had corgis. Yes.

Susan Keevil 00:29:11 But she also had Labradors and I have Labradors.

Natalie MacLean 00:29:13 Oh yes. Badly behaved ones, I hear.

Susan Keevil 00:29:16 Not great.

Natalie MacLean 00:29:19 Absolutely, Susan. So where can we find you and the book online?

Susan Keevil 00:29:23 AcademieDuVinLibrary.com. That’s our website. So definitely that’s the place to go to buy the book. We have an Academie du Vin Library Instagram page where Hermione and my colleagues regular update about our books and our sales and our new books coming and the people that we talk to and new authors. And so, yeah, that’s where to look.

Natalie MacLean 00:29:44 Terrific. Well, congratulations on producing such a beautiful book. I’m sure many people be interested in this one. And thank you for taking the time to chat with us today.

Susan Keevil 00:29:54 Oh, not at all. I’ve really, really enjoyed it. It’s been lovely to talk to you, Natalie.

Natalie MacLean 00:29:58 I will say goodbye for now, and I look forward to continuing the discussion, perhaps on another region in the future.

Natalie MacLean 00:30:10 Well, there you have it. I hope you enjoyed our chat with Susan. Here are my takeaways. Number one, what makes Sangiovese such a difficult wine to grow and make? Susan notes that Sangiovese is a lot like Pinot Noir in that it likes a certain terroir, particular soils, the winds of Tuscany, and it’s quite a sensitive grape. You can’t overproduce it. It responds differently to different sites and it’s not good in every vintage. It has so many parallels with Pinot. They don’t taste the same, but they behave the same. Two spoiled brats, though when they’re sublime, they’re great.

Natalie MacLean 00:30:47 Number two, why should you pay attention to the white wines of Tuscany? Susan loves an underdog story. So do I. And that’s the white wines of Tuscany, because they’re only 10% of wines produced. Though she believes that the Trebbiano grape is an evil twin so never mind that one. In the book, Emily O’Hare writes about grapes like Vernaccia, Vermentino and Ansonica that are producing some great white wines, and we should watch out for them. We should actually drink them, too. And there’s another lovely story about wines from the small island called Giglio. It was raided by the pirate Barbarossa, and he sent all the inhabitants away to be slaves in Constantinople. Not a nice man, but he did bring back people from the village in Greece. And they brought the grape Ansonica with them. And so those vines are still on the island today. Susan thinks that white wines are going to be increasingly more important for Tuscany.

Natalie MacLean 00:31:44  And number three, what do you need to know about Tuscany’s Vin Santo, the wine of the saints. So if you’re going to find a comparison, Susan thinks that Vin Santo and Tokaji is a good one to make because they both have that bracing acidity that Italians love and many of us as well. But also you can’t generalise about Vin Santo. It’s a 3000 year old wine and every farm seems to make a different version. In the past, they used to collect these grapes because they couldn’t handle all of the olives and grapes coming in at once at harvest, so they would leave some of the grapes drying up in lofts high up in the roofs of their barns and farms, so they would dry and concentrate and the sugars would get even sweeter. Then, when everything settled down in November or right through to February, they would make wine from these beautifully sweet grapes. They all have their own natural yeast from the air, and they would seed that yeast into the wine, ferment, and then they’d lock it up in its barrel and leave it alone for 7 to 8 years. It would shrink and concentrate as it fermented. Then it would stop fermenting and then they would open the barrel very carefully. And it was magnificent, she says, but very, very different. Each producer has their own style.

Natalie MacLean 00:33:06 In the show notes, you’ll find a full transcript of my conversation with Susan, links to her website, and books the video versions of these conversations on Facebook and YouTube live, and where you can order my book online now, no matter where you live. If you missed episode 183, go back and take a listen. I chat about Italian wines and wine competitions with Vine Italy’s Stevie Kim. I’ll share a short clip with you now to whet your appetite.

Stevie Kim 00:33:37 Italian wine is just like the Italians. They’re incredibly creative and imaginative, and it’s not by chance that they excel in cuisine, in fashion and design.

Natalie MacLean 00:33:49 Gucci. Versace. Cars.

Stevie Kim 00:33:51 They’re completely individualistic and fragmented.

Natalie MacLean 00:33:56 Is that a history of kingdoms?

Stevie Kim 00:33:57 I don’t know, but Italians are incredibly individualistic. So that means that you have so many denominations and so many different grapes. So we’re talking about 600 odd grapes and 400 plus denominations.

Natalie MacLean 00:34:15 Denominations meaning little regions or designations within regions.

Stevie Kim 00:34:19 Yes, the appellations. So that is very difficult to wrap your head around when you are a wine lover. And that’s one of the reasons we’ve been making small booklets to make it a little bit more digestible and approachable.

Natalie MacLean 00:34:38 If you liked this episode or learned even one thing from it, please email or tell one friend about the podcast this week, especially someone you know who’d be interested in learning more about the wines of Tuscany. It’s easy to find my podcast. Just tell them to search for Natalie MacLean Wine on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, their favourite podcast app, or they can listen to the show on my website at nataliemaclean.com/podcast.

Natalie MacLean 00:35:05 Email me if you have a sip, tip, question, or would like to win one of six copies of books by Fiona, Susan or Rosemary, if you’re reading the paperback or e-book or listening to the audiobook of my memoir Wine Witch on Fire: Rising from the Ashes of Divorce, Defamation, and Drinking Too Much, a national bestseller in one of Amazon’s best books of the year,  I’d love to hear from you at [email protected]. I’d be happy to send you beautifully designed, personally signed book plates for the copies you buy or give as gifts. I’ll put a link in the show notes to all retailers worldwide at Nataliemaclean.com/329. The paperback usually arrives within a day or two of ordering, and the e-book and audiobook are instantly available. I’d love to hear your thoughts about this episode. Were you surprised about the growing popularity of Tuscan white wines? Did you find the comparison between Sangiovese and Pinot Noir interesting? What questions do you still have about Tuscany? Email me at [email protected]. In the show notes, you’ll also find a link to take a free online food and wine pairing class with me called The Five Wine and Food Pairing Mistakes That Can Ruin Your Dinner and How to Fix Them Forever at nataliemaclean.com/class. That’s all in the show notes at nataliemaclean.com/329.

Natalie MacLean 00:36:26 Thank you for taking the time to join me here.  I hope something great is in your glass this week, perhaps a vibrant, edgy, high needs, high maintenance diva Sangiovese. You don’t want to miss one juicy episode of this podcast, especially the secret full bodied bonus episodes that I don’t announce on social media. So subscribe for free now at natalie maclean.com/subscribe. Meet me here next week. Cheers!

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