Why Does the Term “Mocktail” for Zero Proof Non-Alcoholic Drinks Offend Many Bartenders?

Natalie MacLean 00:00:00 Our high end non-alcoholic drinks worth the price? What is the bartender’s secret to great citrus based cocktails like margaritas and mimosas? How do bartenders redefine a crafted cocktail without alcohol? And why does the term mocktail for zero proof non-alcoholic drinks offend many bartenders? Well, in today’s episode, you’ll hear the stories and tips that answer those questions in part two of our chat with Elva Ramirez, author of the award winning books Sparkling and Zero Proof. By the end of our conversation, you’ll also discover why bartenders at Dante in New York used burrata water instead of egg whites in a Champagne Ramos cocktail. The biggest mistakes home bartenders make with bottled juices. Why large blocks of ice make better punch than cubes. How America’s long standing tension between loving alcohol and fearing its effects continues to shape drinking culture today. What the infamous Raines sandwich was, and how it exposed loopholes in New York’s early drinking laws. How public temperance pledges connect to today’s Dry January social media posts. Why the US Army went completely dry in 1917, and how that decision paved the way for prohibition.

Natalie MacLean 00:01:25 How seed lip, the first distilled, non-alcoholic spirit, transformed modern bar culture, and why Elva believes opting out of drinking should feel as natural as any other dietary choice.

Natalie MacLean 00:01:42 Do you have a thirst to learn about wine? Do you love stories about wonderfully obsessive people, hauntingly beautiful places, and amusingly awkward social situations? Well, that’s the blend here on the Unreserved Wine Talk podcast. I’m your host, Natalie MacLean, and each week I share with you unfiltered conversations with celebrities in the wine world, as well as confessions from my own tipsy journey as I write my third book on this subject. I’m so glad you’re here. Now pass me that bottle, please, and let’s get started.

Natalie MacLean 00:02:24 Welcome to episode 363. So what’s new in the wine world this week? Well, space aged wine continues to fascinate us. A bottle of Chateau Petrus 2000 that spent 14 months orbiting Earth aboard the International Space Station has just sold privately through Christie’s for about $1 million, complete with a meteorite corkscrew. For comparison. Tastings back home on terra firma.

Natalie MacLean 00:02:52 How’s the harvest going? Ontario’s 2025 grape harvest is shaping up to be quality over quantity with smaller berries and clusters thanks to the summer drought. But experts at Brock University are reporting excellent concentration and freshness. Music to our ears and taste buds. Do our taste buds listen anyway? British Columbia is celebrating a comeback after last year’s cold snap, now reporting 90% of a typical crop and outstanding fruit from the Okanagan. While Quebec’s harvest tours and grape stomping events keep drawing crowds and Instagrammers. Nova Scotia’s Annapolis Valley has joined the club this year, too. Yields are lower, but grape flavors are dialing up. And across the Atlantic, France and Italy faced a hot, fast harvest with yields down but botrytis and sweet wines and high end reds shining. California is having a Goldilocks vintage in many areas like Monterey County. Reporting conditions are not too hot, not too cold just right, producing classically elegant wines. I’m looking forward to the 2026 Three Bears vintage personally, whatever that means. Harvest in both hemispheres is all about resilience, low yields, high hope, and lots of reasons to raise a glass.

Natalie MacLean 00:04:05 In France, a winemaker just harvested the first legal Pinot noir from the fields of Versailles wine once fit for only kings, now up for grabs by mere plebs and mortals. Get ready, though, for regal price tags. And finally, something to make you smile or scratch your head. Pet wine is taking New Zealand by storm. And no, I’m not talking about pet nat wines, but pet pets. A New Zealand entrepreneur has launched an alcohol free wine made for cats and dogs. Mutt Lee’s estate. Oh yeah, it gets better. Based in Auckland, offers a collection of playfully named drinks including Purr Noir and Sauvignon bark. These grape free beverages contain catnip and are marketed as premium products that can enhance pet’s pets moods, particularly during celebrations with human companions. Founder John Roberts drew inspiration from similar overseas products such as canine beer. Had never heard of that. His background in veterinary pharmaceuticals helped him to develop the formulations that go beyond simple treats. Roberts recalls his childhood pets becoming anxious during fireworks displays, with medication being the only available solution.

Natalie MacLean 00:05:19 He wanted to create a more holistic alternative that could help pets during stressful moments while serving as an enjoyable indulgence. Now, Riedel just needs to catch up and get their wine glasses in order. Did you know Riedel has like over 90 different wine glass shapes, but cats and dogs? That’s a missing market anyway. The product line for these wines has found success in New Zealand and Australia, with the company now eyeing expansion into Asia and North America. Roberts attributes some of this success to New Zealand’s wine culture, noting that marketing a product as wine rather than merely as a pet treat, boosted its appeal. However, the company faces an unexpected challenge. Customs officials sometimes misclassified the product as alcoholic beverages, initially applying wine import and export duties. So far, Roberts has successfully clarified the non-alcoholic nature of his products to resolve these issues. Now, last question. I wonder what they’ll call 5 p.m. for pets. The happy howling hour. If you have some wine, news, or a quirky story you think I should share in the podcast.

Natalie MacLean 00:06:29 Email me at Natalie at Natalie MacLean dot com. I’m also sharing wine news and reviews on Instagram where I’m at Natalie MacLean wine. So follow me there and I’ll follow you back on upcoming TV shows such as CTV or Morning City TV’s Breakfast Television, CTV’s Cp24 Breakfast show Morning Live, and CTV’s The Social will be chatting about terrific wines and spirits for holiday celebrations and gift giving. And believe it or not, we are already planning driest January with low and no alcohol drinks, as well as those low in calories and sugar, plus romantic wines and spirits for Valentine’s Day. Oh my goodness. Let me know if you’d like your brand featured on these TV segments or future segments, or would like to advertise with us through our podcast, newsletter, website, social media or mobile apps. If you represent a winery, distillery, brewery, or an agency or regional council representing wines, spirits, cocktails, cheese or other food brands, please email me at Natalie at Natalie MacLean. Com. Back to today’s episode. Three of you are going to win a copy of Elva Ramirez terrific book, sparkling.

Natalie MacLean 00:07:42 It’s got all these wonderful sparkling wine cocktails. So good, especially for holiday entertaining. Meaning I still have two copies of Andy Neither and Jane Masters fabulous new book, Rooted in Change The Stories Behind Sustainable Wine, beautiful photos, two copies of Doctor Tuffy Nieder Meyer’s book The Wines of Brazil, and one copy left as Sarah Jane Evans The Wines of Central and southern Spain. If you’d like to win a copy of any of these books, please email me and let me know. You’d like to win. It doesn’t matter where you live, I’ll choose eight winners randomly from those who contact me. Keep them for yourself or give them as gifts no one will know. In other bookish news, if you’re reading the paperback or e-book or listening to the audiobook of my memoir, Wine Witch on Fire Rising from the Ashes of Divorce, defamation, and Drinking Too Much, a national bestseller in one of Amazon’s best books of the year. I’d love to hear from you at Natalie at Natalie MacLean dot com. I’ll put a link in the show notes to all retailers worldwide at Natalie MacLean.

Natalie MacLean 00:08:45 Com forward slash three, six three. Okie dokie. On with the show. I found this fascinating. You suggest using burrata water instead of egg whites in the cocktail. Champagne, Ramos. What inspired the substitution? And how does burrata water the soft cheese? Burrata. The water that it’s usually stored in create a meringue like fizz. It sounds divine.

Elva Ramirez 00:09:16 It’s lovely. So this drink comes from Dante. Egg whites have been used in cocktails for a very long time because just like in baking, if you know how you whip them up, they froth and they have this really lovely body. When you shake up the burrata water, it acts like an egg white. And in other words, it gets frothy right away. It has body. It gives the drink a real lovely silky ness. You know, I think if I were doing this, it’d be less wasteful than going through a bunch of eggs. Because if you’re just using the egg white, maybe you’re not using the yolk kind of thing. Or maybe someone doesn’t want eggs, but they can still have the burrata water.

Elva Ramirez 00:09:48 Yes, this is just an example of how really talented bartenders will just look around and find inspiration from all sorts of different materials, maybe beyond what we’re used to thinking about.

Natalie MacLean 00:09:59 They really are chefs, drink chefs, cocktail chefs, like, you know, they are mixing flavors and ingredients. That’s fantastic. Now you write that citrus juice, especially lemon and lime, is volatile and has, I did not know this a window of 4 to 12 hours, which seems to contradict what a lot of home bartenders do or think. Maybe they’re not thinking about it. What happens to citrus juice after 12 hours? Can you actually taste the difference?

Elva Ramirez 00:10:23 Oh yes you can. Yeah. So this is bartending 101. Any like fancy bar will have their fresh juice, and then they will either toss it the next morning or they’ll find a way of reusing it in some ways. Like you can use old juice to make cordials, for example. What happens is the flavor compounds and citrus break down. It goes off like you can taste the difference between a fresh lime, fresh lime juice and lime juice that’s been sitting around for a few hours.

Elva Ramirez 00:10:49 Different bartenders will say, oh, for me, my cutoff is four hours. Someone else might say, okay, it’s more like 12. But regardless, it’s not a day before. And it’s definitely not like a whole an entire day. So my tip is, if you’re throwing a party, for example, let’s say you’re making margaritas or you’re going to make mimosas, for example, and you’re squeezing these things fresh when people coming over, I’ll do everything I need to do to get ready for a party, clean the house, clean the kitchen, batch the drinks. By the way, if you’re ever hosting a party, batch your drinks ahead of time. But all the liquors together, not the juice, just all the liquors have them portioned out. So let’s say your guests are coming at eight. The very last thing I do before I go and get dressed for the party is make the juices, well, juice, whatever citrus I have and let it chill. And then it’s chilling as your friends are coming in, and you’ll batch it and you’ll put it together and you serve your drinks.

Elva Ramirez 00:11:40 It should be the last thing you do before your party. If you can help it. Great tip. And if you have any leftover in the next morning, see if you can use it and turn it into a cordial.

Natalie MacLean 00:11:49 Okay. What is a cordial again?

Elva Ramirez 00:11:51 A cordial is when you have citrus, you’ll boil it with some simple syrup and some water. It’s like a syrup, but you’re using more of the fresh citrus juice. There’s a couple of recipes in the book if you want to look it up, and they last a lot longer. I think I’m forgetting. You mentioned that you’ll probably have citric acid in there, so you’re basically extending the lifetime of your juice life cycle of your juice.

Natalie MacLean 00:12:10 Now, is it just a no no, not to use juice that we buy in cartons like Tropicana? Is that just like, don’t even think about doing that in cocktails.

Elva Ramirez 00:12:19 Please. If there’s one thing, please. If there’s one thing, I don’t do it, okay?

Natalie MacLean 00:12:24 Just don’t.

Elva Ramirez 00:12:25 Maybe orange juice you can kind of get better with.

Elva Ramirez 00:12:27 But going back to what I just talked about, how citrus juice goes bad, the lemon and the limes is the more important details like that will go off, right? So juice your lemons. Juice your limes. Get yourself a quick juicer. Or just get even those little like, I don’t know what they’re called, but this little, those plastic juicer things where you like, just put it in and you squeeze. There’s so many, like, easy tools that are not expensive right now that help you juice quickly. So never, ever buy bottled juice or lemon or lime or lemon juice. Don’t do it.

Natalie MacLean 00:12:56 I promise not to anymore.

Elva Ramirez 00:12:59 Yeah, if you don’t have a juicer and you have to buy orange juice or pineapple, those can stay fresher longer. But the real ones have to do with lemon and lime. Those are the ones you should always try to juice yourself.

Natalie MacLean 00:13:10 Wow. Okay. The book notes that larger ice cubes will keep the mixture cold and not dilute too quickly. That just seems like straightforward physics.

Natalie MacLean 00:13:19 Does the ice size effect sparkling cocktails differently from still cocktails?

Elva Ramirez 00:13:26 I don’t think the ice has anything. Doesn’t change the distiller sparkling. That note had more to do with when you’re making punches, so it had to do more. Thinking about I’m having a party. I have a big punch bowl. It’s a better drink experience. If I make a giant block of ice versus a bunch of little cubes, they do some modes. I don’t get that fancy with it. I just have like, you know, Tupperware that you filled with water and you put it in so that you. And then when the people come over, you dump it so you into the punch bowl so that you have like a literally a block of ice that’s going to help keep it cool, but dilute it slowly.

Natalie MacLean 00:13:58 Makes sense. Lots of great tips. I want to get to your second book, Zero Proof. What led you to focus on non-alcoholic cocktails and that movement long before at least I spotted it as a trend. Maybe I’m just living under a rock, but when did you first realize this was becoming a significant cultural shift? Rather than just, say, a passing fad?

Elva Ramirez 00:14:21 I wrote about this very early on.

Elva Ramirez 00:14:23 This is this is back when I was very much like a doing wine and spirits reporting. So you’re always out. You’re talking to people. You’re figuring out like what people are interested in next, what they’re excited about. And at the time then as now, every top bartender is an expert in mezcal. They’re an expert in tequila. They’re an expert in rye. They know their spirits. And all of a sudden they started thinking about and had to do with the beginning of the new non-alcoholic products. But also they realized that there was this whole other field that they can now, like, flex their skills in, and it was the non-alcoholic space, and it was like, oh, I can bring all my tricks and do everything I do really well. I’m just not using alcohol. I sometimes tell people it’s like, if you hired a French trained chef and you ask them to make something vegan, right? They can’t use dairy or any of these things, but they’re still going to have all this wonderful training, so they’re still going to be able to think about composing dishes in this way.

Elva Ramirez 00:15:18 These bartenders were doing the same thing, so they got really excited about using all their tricks. But instead of putting the focus on alcohol, they’re putting the focus on flavor and different kinds of ingredients. So I wrote an article, and then a handful of months later, I was approached to turn it into a book. And then that’s kind of where we are. And then what I did was I, I went to all my bartender friends who I knew were experimenting with these drinks, and I said, give me your recipes. And that’s that’s kind of where where the book came about.

Natalie MacLean 00:15:44 That’s awesome. Your book opens with a fascinating line. To be American is to drink. To be American is to worry about drinking. I extend that to Canadians, too. Can you explain how this tension has shaped American drinking culture from colonial times to today? You don’t need to do a sweep of history there, but expand on that sort of that tension between loving drinking and worrying about it.

Elva Ramirez 00:16:09 It’s a lot.

Elva Ramirez 00:16:10 I’ll try not to do the deep history lesson, but basically, the American colonialists brought over drinking traditions from the Dutch and the British New England, and a lot of social life was centered around drinking, around saloons, around pubs. You would have drinking, even in courthouses, to pass the time. It was very much what you did. And the tension comes from when people didn’t want to do it. You’re treated as an outsider because tribal behavior always. And so when you have a whole bunch of people doing one thing and someone is like, I don’t want to. Then there’s a lot of tension coming up with like, well, why aren’t you doing this? Are you judging this? Do you think you’re better than us? But also just super quick. Water at the time was unsafe. So people drink a lot because you didn’t have other options. All these things sort of reinforce each other. Really. So you’re drinking because it’s what you do and you’re being social. That’s how you talk to people.

Elva Ramirez 00:17:06 You know, someone comes over or you’re out with your friend like that’s what you did. But at the same time, there weren’t other options. So coffee wasn’t popular. So you couldn’t do going to a cafe or coffee house that comes much, much, much later. Water was very dangerous to drink. Milk might be scarce and milk might be reserved for children. So just there wasn’t a lot of options, so even children were given. It’s called a near beer. There’s a first step in the fermentation process for beer that is like the sort of almost like water beer. It’s fermented but or not fermented, but it’s like the beginning of the distilling process, but it has very little alcohol. So you would give that to children. So that’s one reason people drink all the time. But as you can imagine, there are also issues with drunkenness and all the sort of social ills that come with them. So this tension is a very, very old tension that we have honestly, really not quite gotten away.

Elva Ramirez 00:17:57 It’s getting better, but we still haven’t really gotten away from it yet. And it has to do a lot with just how we socialize and how we think about what it means to be out with your friends.

Natalie MacLean 00:18:07 Absolutely. Tell us about the Raines Law of 1896, in New York. That led to creative workarounds, like the infamous rain sandwich that was served. What was going on with that sandwich, what was happening and why?

Elva Ramirez 00:18:19 So remember how I mentioned, like, why were people drinking so much champagne? It was because people were just drinking a lot in general, like they were drinking a lot of champagne, but they were just drinking a lot. Everything I mentioned there were about one saloon for every 26 adults. so this very quickly becomes a problem. The reason I know this is so these are all contemporary news articles of the time. So even as all these people were drinking, there was a real conversation of like, this is a problem. People are drunk in the streets, they’re using all the way.

Elva Ramirez 00:18:46 So these are all the things that factors that kind of lead to prohibition. And a few years after that. So the reigns law was the beginning of lawmakers saying we need to do something about this. And so they started coming up with different ways that are, I would say, the ancestors, the inspirations for contemporary alcohol laws. Now, the reigns law, one of the things they had was they had you had to be able you couldn’t just order drinks anymore, you had to have food. But they got really creative about them where they’re like, okay. So they had their, news accounts of a Bologna sandwich. So they really stretched the definition of what food was. So they had one where it was just like plastic meat and plastic bread that just sat on the table and people were like, that’s food. And then there’s another one where it was a real food. It was like a real sandwich, but all it does was just sat on your table. So you ordered food, and then you had drinks and you had food and there was a news account.

Elva Ramirez 00:19:39 There was like, woe betide or whatever that, like, watch out for the guy who didn’t know that and actually ate the salad. Ate the sandwich. You might not know this, but during New York, in the pandemic, right, as things were coming out as as the bars were shut down and then they started to reopen again and they were being very careful about, you know, what you can do and you couldn’t do, and you went out to bars. I remember this this came back in a way where they’re like, I forget what time this was. I want to say like late 2020, give or take. But seven pandemic era when bars were allowed to open but they had to serve food. It was the return of this exact law. I saw it here in New York City and and the way bars got around it in 2020 where they’re like, here’s potato chips are here’s your drinks. And they’re like, you have to like it was an extra fee. They’re like, you have to buy a hot dog or potato chips.

Elva Ramirez 00:20:27 And then that counted as serving food. And I remember my friend and I went and we had one hot dog between the two of us, but then had like five drinks and.

Natalie MacLean 00:20:36 It smells like a good ratio. Yeah, we had a bar up here who was serving your drink order would come with one cracker.

Elva Ramirez 00:20:41 That’s where all that comes from. It was because of these laws? Yeah, because they couldn’t trust people not to just drink a lot. People. And that’s how people got around it.

Natalie MacLean 00:20:50 And the concept of signing the temperance pledge like to give up alcohol dates back, you say to at least 1637. How did this practice evolve into modern movements like Dry January? And what was the psychological power of such a public declaration? I mean, do you see connections between signing, taking the pledge and and now people on social media announcing they’re doing dry January? Anything there?

Elva Ramirez 00:21:16 Oh, yeah, there’s a direct link there. And I think it comes with be just basically holding yourself accountable. Like the language, the way we describe it now has changed.

Elva Ramirez 00:21:24 But the idea is very old, which is you say publicly, I’m going to do this and you say it basically for yourself, but you’re saying it so everyone around you hears so that they will then say, hey, you said that thing, you’re not going to do it anymore. Another effect of that is also finding community. So if I say out loud, I’m not drinking this January and someone hears me or my friends see it on social and they’re like, oh, me too. Let’s go for a bike ride or whatever. Like, let’s hang out together and support each other. So it’s a couple different things. It’s holding yourself accountable. Finding community and letting people be able to respect what you’re doing. But how we’re doing it is new in terms of social media and having these really organized movements, but people have been doing it for a very, very long time. And the reason I feel like that this developed this idea of like saying this out loud and being a very public statement comes from what we were talking about a couple of minutes ago, this tension where, oh, you’re not drinking.

Elva Ramirez 00:22:17 That’s weird. You know, this is a this is a real kind of, I should I say it’s a real reaction. It’s a real result of that tension of when people don’t drink, there’s something up with them for a long time. You know, if you didn’t drink. It was assumed you were sick. Or pregnant, you know, or you had an alcoholic problem. Like it was never sort of. Seen in a good light. And so part of people speaking up and saying, I want to do this. It’s my choice to do this, is trying to really kind of take that power back and reframe their choices as something positive, something empowering. So all these things are all intertwined. Both of these things don’t exist without the other.

Natalie MacLean 00:22:51 Yeah. Fascinating. You write also that the US Army went bone dry in 1917, making it the first and only war where American troops were asked to stay sober. What impact did the military prohibition have on paving the way for national prohibition? And I’m thinking those poor soldiers in the trenches and couldn’t even have a drink.

Natalie MacLean 00:23:11 Oh my God.

Elva Ramirez 00:23:13 They took that from London. That sort of started in the British Army first, actually, but it comes back to that era. People were drinking too much that didn’t come. You know, that idea of like, we have to make the troops be sober didn’t come from nowhere because there were documented cases of soldiers being completely drunk on the job and then having real impact across different activities that went on. So it wasn’t like people woke up one day and were like, you know, we’re not allowing the soldiers to drink anymore. It’s because they can’t handle it. They’re literally messing up. They can’t do their jobs. And so that was the first and only time that happened. But what that did was it was again another example of the national conversation. People are drinking too much and they can’t handle it. Once the army went dry, it was only a matter of time that it did sort of set up all the checks and balances that led to prohibition. I will say that it’s believed that the spirits at the time were stronger.

Elva Ramirez 00:24:11 They were drinking stronger, higher proof spirits than what we drink now. And even the wines, for example, were sweeter. They had more sugar in them when they were produced. So the contemporary palette look like us right now? Probably wouldn’t like the wines and the spirits that were made in the 1890s. There were. They just had a lot more sugar. And so that, I think, contributed to a lot of people getting drunk or faster. And there’s a lot of also deregulation. You were getting a lot of adulterated, like basically like bathtub gin type situations. That happened in prohibition too. But even before that, there was just like not a lot of oversight into how these things were made. So people were getting sick for all sorts of different reasons, which is why you’re having both a cultural backlash with the temperance movement, but also the lawmakers kind of coming in and being like, hold up. There’s overlap, too, and that the temperance movement eventually gets elected to office and then they start enacting their agenda.

Elva Ramirez 00:25:05 But it’s not coming out of nowhere. It wasn’t it wasn’t just that they were like, no one have a party. It was a real menace, menace to society. It was, you know.

Natalie MacLean 00:25:12 Yeah, I can understand that. Multiple bartenders in your book express their extreme disdain for the word Mocktail. Can you explain why this word has become so controversial or disdained in professional bartending circles?

Elva Ramirez 00:25:29 Yeah, I personally. Look, if you want to call it mocktail, I’m not going to correct you. I’ll let you have it. I prefer syrup proof, which is the name of my book. But bartenders will point out that there’s two reasons they don’t like it mocktail. So mock means to make fun of or yeah, to make fun of. And it also means fake. And so what they don’t like is mock concern in terms of to make fun of. They don’t want the consumer at any point to feel like the consumer is making a lesser choice, or the consumer is not being seen in their choice when they’re choosing to have a non-alcoholic drink.

Elva Ramirez 00:25:59 And then in terms of fake, fake, they don’t like that either, because they’re saying we put as much effort, if not more, into making these really beautiful non-alcoholic drinks. There’s nothing fake about them. You know, going back to the analogy of a chef who’s asked to do something vegan, a bartender who’s asked to make a non-alcoholic drink is still going to put all their know how, all their skills into making something really beautiful? It just might not have whisky in it, but it’s still going to be very beautiful.

Natalie MacLean 00:26:24 Sure, that’s totally understandable. Seed lip launched in London, UK in 2015 and sold out its inaugural Selfridges. The department store ran out almost immediately. What made this non-alcoholic distillate different from everything else that had come before? Why did it resonate so powerfully? Maybe you can tell us a little bit about what’s in Seed Lip. Is it made from sort of botanicals, herbs, spices, that sort of thing.

Elva Ramirez 00:26:50 So you really hit on something that was really missing in the market because the way said.

Elva Ramirez 00:26:54 Yes, it has botanicals. There’s a couple of different expressions, so they’re all slightly different. One is a little more vegetal and some are a little bit more herbal or fruity. There are different expressions, but what Ben Branson did is he doesn’t drink. He found a distilling book from the 16 somethings. And in that book, which is a very early book about distilling, there was a recipe to make a Non-alcoholic distillate. So seedless was the first non-alcoholic distillate that was made in the same way that you might make gin, for example, is just you just change the process slightly. You stop it before it becomes alcoholic. And so when Seed Lip launched, here was something that approximated the complexity of an alcoholic spirit that you can then use as a mixer in place of, it was very much like you don’t need to use gin. You can use this. It’s going to have some of the same herbal, earthy, vegetal qualities as gin, and it will still elevate your bar drink. So it was just an instant hit because all of a sudden it was like, we’ve never had this before.

Elva Ramirez 00:27:55 This is so exciting. So when Seed Lip launched in the UK about two years later, it came to the US, it came to New York. That’s when the bartenders I was around started using it, and that’s when I noticed it. And that’s when I wrote about it in about 2017, I think 2017, 2018. That was pretty much what kicked off the beginning of my research for this book. It was really like, wait. No one’s ever done this before. Like there was nothing else before that. That really kind of set the bar in that way.

Natalie MacLean 00:28:22 Wow. Fascinating. So you note that making good business sense, restaurants and bars can show off their skills. We’ve talked about this. You’ve put in just as much care into making zero proof cocktails as they do those with alcohol. And they can charge more for a drink that represents their ethos. I mean, the alcohol is often one of the more expensive ingredients in cocktails. How has the pricing and economics of alcohol free cocktails evolved?

Elva Ramirez 00:28:51 They’re getting more expensive than they were when they started, and I think that’s fair.

Elva Ramirez 00:28:55 There’s a real conversation that’s happening among consumers being like, why am I paying $16 for a non-alcoholic drink? But what you’re not seeing is all the work that happened three days before to get you that drink. And some really like some really top bars, really put special effort into, you know, they’re really pushing the conversation forward in terms of what a drink can be. So they’re doing things like cooking things like sous vide. They are drying things. They are making their own tinctures. They’re making cordials. It’s not just here some fresh orange juice and soda water. Like they’re really making building blocks for drinks in the same way, usually the same things. They’re going to be used for an alcoholic drink. They’re also going to be used those same ingredients for a non-alcoholic drink. You’re just leaving out, you know, the liquor. So there’s a lot of work and effort that goes into it. And also, if you’re working with things like, I know alcohol can be expensive, but so is fresh produce.

Elva Ramirez 00:29:47 And so especially especially if it’s out of season or whatever it is. So it can be as expensive, especially in terms of labor, because like I said, some of these processes will take hours. There was a pop up white line silver lining. One of the lines did a pop up here in New York a few years ago. They took over a space in New York for about, I think a month or so, three weeks, something like that. It was absolutely beautiful. It’s very special. Every single drink was priced the same, including the non alcoholic. Every single drink was $18. And I was like, this is it. This is how you do it. And then they kind of walk me through some of the things they had done. They had like two different versions of how they did plums, for example. And one of the versions required, like a three day prep, you know. So what you’re seeing when you’re getting an expensive non-alcoholic drink is really a lot of effort that people are putting in the kitchen before it comes to the bar.

Natalie MacLean 00:30:33 Sure, that makes sense. Nearly 60% of UK consumers switch back and forth between alcoholic and non-alcoholic drinks. You write, how has this statistic changed how bars think about their customers? Maybe that’s just obvious that it’s an expanding repertoire of alcohol free cocktails, wines and spirits?

Elva Ramirez 00:30:54 Yes. They call it zebra striping, where you drink one on, one off. I think bars are understanding, finally, that sometimes if you want to go out with your friends and you want to be social, but you don’t necessarily want to drink or you want to drink less, I count myself as that. What I just as that demographic. I am very conscious now about drinking less because it just makes me sick. I love cocktails, but I also know that if I have more than two, I’m going to have a very bad headache the next morning. So I have my own little techniques, which is a lot of it is just drinking a lot of just wine or. My favorite right now is Lillian Tonic. Very low ABV, but wines recognize that if you.

Elva Ramirez 00:31:29 And this ties into your earlier question like if you give someone something that’s very thoughtful and non-alcoholic, that looks like it’s served in the same kind of glass as everyone else in the room, as all the other cocktails, people will stay longer and they will be willing to pay more for that if they don’t want. Just like soda water, they want to be able to be to be feel like they’re taken care of, to be part of the occasion. And if you do that right, people will pay for it and they will stay, even if they’re not drinking, they’re just not drinking alcohol. But if you give them that option, it just means another revenue stream, especially if you have something that’s very thoughtful as opposed to making someone feel like they’re imposing. If they don’t want to drink liquor that night, or if they want to have, you know, they want to start with a martini, but then switch so that you know they can stay out longer for the rest of the night, and they know that they can be fine for their next morning meeting or something like that.

Natalie MacLean 00:32:19 Sure. That makes total sense. And you also talk about that there’s been a movement away from basing drinks around protein, like we’ve always paired wine and food or maybe cocktails and food. What is the industry moving toward if it’s not basing drinks around protein? Are they just basing it around the inherent flavors of the drink itself, instead of just trying to pair it with various dishes?

Elva Ramirez 00:32:44 I think so what this is looking at is that we’re expanding our definition about occasion. What happens in food movements is very much influenced cocktails. So drinks is just a couple steps beyond what’s happening in food. So the acceptance of vegan diets, gluten free, all these diets means that people have become more aware they want more choices. Like if you go to a cafe, you now expect to see a couple different milk options, including dairy, but also almond and soy, right? So with that mindset that’s now transferred into cocktails. So that influences how we’re making the drinks and some of the ingredients available that we’re using in cocktails, but also the occasion.

Elva Ramirez 00:33:27 These are very rigid constructs. Like you have to serve this with that. You can only do this in the morning. You can only do this at night. That’s all falling apart. And I think we’re seeing a lot more, almost like playfulness and creativity and how we’re serving these cocktails. What are we having them with? Listen, during the pandemic, when we were all shut down, I went through my library and I’m like, I’m having champagne today. I’m bringing my best friend over. Why? Because it’s a Tuesday afternoon. Why not? Do you know what I mean? And so that that mindset just means I can have champagne right now if I feel like it with my friend. Not because anyone’s getting married or anyone graduated because we feel like it.

Natalie MacLean 00:34:06 Absolutely.

Elva Ramirez 00:34:07 Yeah. And so I think that idea inspires kind of everything just across the board.

Natalie MacLean 00:34:12 I just wanted to mention some of the creativity with these zero proof cocktails. They’re really creating like an alcohol like complexity. Maybe I shouldn’t even compare it to that.

Natalie MacLean 00:34:24 But the clumsy spa team in Athens created the non-alcoholic Negroni, requiring four different infusions that were combined. Why is it so challenging to replicate the complexity of a Negroni without alcohol? And for those who don’t know, maybe you could just briefly tell us what a Negroni is.

Elva Ramirez 00:34:41 Yeah. Negroni is a very classic cocktail. It’s very famous. It’s three parts. Equal parts gin, Campari, vermouth. It’s very bitter. It’s not a beginner’s drink, let me tell you that. It’s a bartender’s favorite, but it’s absolutely wonderful. And then Negroni went viral a couple years ago. Is the Negroni plus sparkling wine. It’s. It’s beautiful. Why is it hard to replicate something like a Negroni In non-alcoholic drinks. Alcohol is a solvent. It hits your mouth differently and it carries flavors differently. And so you’re not. When you’re working something with it that’s non-alcoholic. It’s hard to kind of just get that feeling. And so that’s why you have to then come in and come around and try different techniques to try to amplify the flavors that you’re working with as much as possible.

Elva Ramirez 00:35:26 So what that recipe is, it’s there. Basically we’re making four different really kind of they’re kind of like teas basically with different ingredients. And so all four of them in some ways are trying to replicate one’s kind of more very bitter. It’s going to be like a little bit of the Campari. One of them is going to be a little like very vegetal. It’s a little bit more like the gin. So when you put them all together, it’s going to get something. The complexity of the Negroni and that’s a that’s a really high bar really, in terms of the, the non-alcoholic world trying to get a really a not a Negroni that is as good as an alcoholic. That to me is the highest bar because it’s easy to do something that’s sweet, but doing something that’s bitter and complex. It’s a really high bar. There is a brand called Saint Agnes’s that does have a phony Negroni that I absolutely adore, and I actually prefer Negroni.

Natalie MacLean 00:36:13 I love.

Elva Ramirez 00:36:14 It. Yeah, I prefer it served in these little bottles.

Elva Ramirez 00:36:16 I prefer their non-alcoholic version to their alcoholic versions. It’s just absolutely delicious. So that’s that’s why. So, you know, trying to get bitterness in a good way and earthy, vegetal and non-alcoholic is kind of the highest bar you can reach for and zero proof cocktails.

Natalie MacLean 00:36:33 That’s awesome. So with sparkling and zero proof, your two books that we’ve been talking about. Is there anything you’ve discovered since that you would like to add to a future edition of either one or both?

Elva Ramirez 00:36:45 So I wrote zero proof very early in the beginning of the of the non-alcoholic movement. And there are some products in the book, but not a lot, only because they weren’t out when I was writing the book. A whole bunch of products came online as the book was published, so if I had to do zero proof all over again, I would add new recipes with all these fabulous new products that have come out. Since there’s so many, I haven’t even been able to keep up with the newer ones. But there’s some really, really great products out there, and there are some really great products that really approximate that, like bitterness.

Elva Ramirez 00:37:17 That’s like I talked about being like the really high, complicated non-alcoholic spirit flavor to try to get.

Natalie MacLean 00:37:24 Sounds like you need to do a new edition of that one.

Elva Ramirez 00:37:26 Yes, I should actually.

Natalie MacLean 00:37:29 It would probably sell like hotcakes. So if you could share a cocktail with anyone outside the beverage world, living or dead, who would that be and which cocktail would you share.

Elva Ramirez 00:37:39 If it was someone dead? I would say Michel Foucault, the French philosopher. But if it was someone who was alive, I’m going to say the drag queen, Bianca Del Rio. She’s like a star from RuPaul’s Drag Race.

Natalie MacLean 00:37:51 Oh, okay. Gotcha.

Elva Ramirez 00:37:52 Yeah. She is the funniest person. I don’t know her personally. She’s just like the funniest person in this world. Like the fastest wit, the fastest humor I will probably. I wouldn’t say anything during the dinner. I would just like sit there and laugh and I just would just want to just be around someone that quick witted. And in terms of the drink, I’d probably offer her a pornstar martini, but it would be like whatever she wants to drink.

Elva Ramirez 00:38:14 Maybe she doesn’t drink, but that’s probably where I would start and see where it goes from there. But I just think that this is like one of the, like, most talented, funniest people alive right now. Like, I just watch her all the time. And so I probably wouldn’t say anything because I would just be laughing the whole time.

Natalie MacLean 00:38:28 That’s great. So, Elva, as we wrap up our conversation, is there anything we haven’t covered that you’d like to mention?

Elva Ramirez 00:38:36 I would say that if you feel weird about not drinking sometimes, don’t feel weird. People have been feeling weird about not drinking for a very long time, and there’s absolutely no shame in that. And also, I would say if you are with your friends and they don’t want to drink, be good to them. Because if we went out with our friends and our friend was like, I’m a vegetarian, I don’t eat meat, you’re not going to pressure them to try to have meat in the same way. So I would say, if you’re out with your friends and your friend says, I’m not drinking this song, be like, cool, I’ll join you, or great, let me help you recommend something.

Elva Ramirez 00:39:06 That’s the one thing I would like love to impart from someone. And if they are, you know, if you are drinking, if you’re not drinking, whatever you want to do is your choice. And no bartender ever should ever try to make you feel bad. And the best bars in the world know how to cater and do proper hospitality regardless of what you want. So I would say like order what you want, feel empowered and whatever you want to do, whether you want to have champagne or non-alcoholic, it’s great. And also extend that hospitality towards your friends. If they make a choice that’s different from what you are ordering at the moment.

Natalie MacLean 00:39:37 Fantastic. Great advice sage. Where can we find you and your books online?

Elva Ramirez 00:39:43 Alva I’m online. I’m on LinkedIn. I’m on Instagram. My Instagram profile is private, but I have a zero proof Instagram which actually is doing quite well. Here’s the zero proof one. I will say I’ve been terrible about my sparkling Instagram. It’s kind of not alive right now, but maybe this is what I’ll get to get people to follow me.

Elva Ramirez 00:40:02 But this is sparkling. Yeah, and then I have a website. Feel free to just drop me a note. I get notes from readers sometimes, and it’s really sweet. A lady very recently wrote me and she was like, I saw your book and I want to know how to get this. I can’t find this glass anywhere. And I wrote my stylist and we found out where she could get it. So I, like, read her notes. Feel free to drop me a note and just be like, I like your drink. I mean, it’s always nice to hear.

Natalie MacLean 00:40:25 Yeah, absolutely. And we’ll put all the links to you and your books in the show notes. And if anyone wants to contact Elva, you can reach her through me at Natalie at Natalie MacLean. Elva, thank you so much for this. This is absolutely wonderful. I feel like we just skimmed the surface of your two books, but I wanted to cover them both because you bring such a dynamic and interesting perspective to it.

Natalie MacLean 00:40:48 You’ve got the history, the culture, and then the practical tips of making something delicious. So thank you so much.

Elva Ramirez 00:40:54 It was such an honor speaking to you. Thank you so much. I love the enthusiasm. I love the questions I hope I would answer as much as possible.

Natalie MacLean 00:41:02 Absolutely.

Elva Ramirez 00:41:03 If you’re ever in New York City, please let’s let’s go get a champagne cocktail together.

Natalie MacLean 00:41:07 Oh, I would love that. I would love that. A porn star martini.

Elva Ramirez 00:41:10 A porn star martini girl. Yes.

Natalie MacLean 00:41:13 Yes, please.

Elva Ramirez 00:41:14 I promise you will love it. Oh, and by the way, in the book there is a recipe for the classic Pornstar Martini. But there’s also a recipe courtesy of my friend Matt Risen of a clarified Pornstar Martini. It takes a lot, a lot, I’m telling you, it takes a lot, a lot of work. But it’s absolutely worth it. Because once you put in like 2 or 3 days of work, I swear I’m sorry. But because you clarify it, you just put it in your fridge, it’s going to last forever.

Elva Ramirez 00:41:38 So anytime someone comes over to my house as a welcome drink, I give them a little pornstar, martini clarified.

Natalie MacLean 00:41:44 Oh my goodness, that’s fabulous. Okay, I’ll say goodbye for now and thank you again.

Elva Ramirez 00:41:50 Thank you.

Natalie MacLean 00:41:51 All right. Cheers. Well, there you have it. I hope you enjoyed our chat with Elva. Here are my takeaways. Number one, our high end non-alcoholic drinks worth the price. Well, as Elvis says, there’s a real conversation happening with consumers these days. Why am I paying $16 for a non-alcoholic drink? But what you’re not seeing is all the work that happened, say, three days before you get the drink. And some bars put special effort into what these drinks can be. They’re cooking sous vide, drying ingredients, making their own tinctures and cordials. It’s not just, you know, here’s a splash of orange juice and soda water. They’re building different foundations into these drinks, and the labor can be the same or more. And fresh juices, as we know, can be expensive and fresh ingredients as well.

Natalie MacLean 00:42:45 Number two, what is the bartender secret to great citrus based cocktails like margaritas or mimosas? Any fancy bar she says, will have fresh juice, and they will toss it the next morning. Or they’ll find a way of reusing it, like in cordials, because the flavor compounds in citrus break down and go off really quickly, especially in fresh lime or lemon juice that’s even been sitting around for a few hours. I did not know that. Wow. Some bartenders. Their cut off is just four hours. So her tip is if you’re throwing a party and you’re making margaritas, squeeze those fresh lemons and limes. Last number three how do bartenders redefine a crafted cocktail without alcohol? Well, this is really a creative challenge for bartenders. Elvis says if you take out the alcohol, then you still have to create balance. So what are you going to add in? And they’re doing lots of interesting experiments using teas and ferments. She was really fascinated by the whole movement and so am I. And number four, why does the term mocktail for zero proof alcoholic drinks offend many bartenders? Elvis says if you want to call it mocktail, she’s not going to correct you or hold it against you.

Natalie MacLean 00:44:02 But she has talked to many, many bartenders who say they prefer zero proof, which is the name of her book. Mark and I have to agree with her means to make fun of. It also means fake bartenders don’t want customers to feel like they’re getting a lesser choice. When they get a non-alcoholic drink, they’re putting just as much effort into it, sometimes more. And there’s nothing fake about these mocktails. I shouldn’t even say it, should I, about these zero proof cocktails. So getting back to the analogy of a chef who’s asked to make something vegan, it’s not like they’re going to denigrate that with a term that that dish is somehow lesser than. If you missed episode 224, go back and take a listen. I chat about alcohol free wines, savoring champagne and synthetic wine with Stephen Lane. I’ll share a short clip with you now to whet your appetite.

Stephen Laine 00:44:54 Every summer a wine lover should have a champagne sabre.

Natalie MacLean 00:44:57 Yes. This is a serious.

Natalie MacLean 00:44:59 Looking.

Natalie MacLean 00:45:00 Dagger.

Stephen Laine 00:45:00 It’s not terribly pointy.

Stephen Laine 00:45:01 It’s just a beautiful way to open champagne. There is a trick to it, though. The bottle must be a champagne bottle because it’s thick. It must be cold as possible. So it’s brittle and the champagne doesn’t fly out. You’ve just got to be very safe when you do it. I’ve never had an accident, but if you go on TikTok or YouTube or Instagram, you’ll see all sorts of disasters. So if you try it, just be very careful. Do a bit of research and yeah, make sure you do it properly.

Natalie MacLean 00:45:22 Actually don’t try this at home. There is a technique of course. You have to find the seam of the glass going up the side, and you’re looking for the structural weakness in the glass. You really do have to know what you’re doing. You won’t want to miss next week. When we chat with Chas McCoy, author of the new book Wine Pairing for the people. And she will join us from her home in Harlem, New York. If you liked this episode or learned even one thing from it.

Natalie MacLean 00:45:51 Please email or tell a friend about the podcast this week, especially someone you know who be interested in learning more about sparkling wine, cocktails, and alcohol free drinks. It’s easy to find the Unreserved Wine Talk podcast. Just tell them to search for that title or my name Natalie MacLean Wine on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, their favorite podcast app. Or they can listen to the show on my website at Natalie MacLean. Email me if you have a SIP tip question, or if you’d like to win one of eight copies of books I have to give away, please take these off my hands. The really beautiful books, all of them gorgeous pictures, maps, etc.. Christmas holidays are coming. I’d also love to hear from you, your thoughts on this episode, or if you’ve read my book or listening to it. Email me at Natalie at Natalie MacLean dot com. In the show notes, you’ll find a link to take a free online food and wine pairing class with me, called the five Wine and Food Pairing Mistakes That can ruin your dinner and how to fix them forever.

Natalie MacLean 00:46:50 At Natalie MacLean forward slash class. And that’s all in the show notes. Everything is in the show notes at Natalie MacLean. Com forward 363. Thank you for taking the time to join me here. I hope something great is in your glass this week. Perhaps an alcohol free wine that tastes terrific.

Natalie MacLean 00:47:17 You don’t want to miss one juicy episode of this podcast, especially the secret full bodied bonus episodes that I don’t announce on social media. So subscribe for free now at Natalie MacLean. Forward. Subscribe! Meet me here next week. Cheers!