Does Mozart or Metallica make wine taste better?

Natalie MacLean
Jul23rd

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Introduction

How does music, even types you dislike, make wine more enjoyable? Can curated playlists in tasting rooms and wine bars influence how customers drink, eat, and experience wine? What happens when you stop overthinking wine and music and just enjoy?

In this episode of the Unreserved Wine Talk podcast, I’m chatting with Susan Lin, a Master of Wine and a Master of Fine Arts in Classical Piano and Musicology.

You can find the wines we discussed here.

 

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Highlights

  • How does a low-pitched, slow-tempo musical piece impact the perceived fruitiness of wine?
  • What does “timbre” mean in musical terms?
  • How do different musical characteristics influence the perception of wine’s effervescence?
  • Did the participants’ music preferences correlate with their enjoyment of the wine?
  • What might surprise you about how the wines tasted in silence compared?
  • Why does the influence of sound on our perception tend to go unnoticed?
  • How are some winemakers using music in their wineries?
  • Are there retail applications for Susan’s research into the influence of music on the perception of wine?
  • What would be Susan’s ideal live concert and wine pairing scenario?
  • What are some of the possibilities in the future for AI-generated music for wine experiences?
  • Is there an interest in similar research on the intersection between dance and wine perception?
  • What future research areas is Susan considering in terms of music and wine perception?
  • What three objects would Susan display in a museum representing her life and passions?
  • If Susan could share a wine with anyone outside the wine industry, who would it be and why?
  • How can you start being more intentional about exploring sensory experiences with wine and music?

 

Key Takeaways

  • How does music, even types you dislike, make wine more enjoyable?
    • Susan says that in her experiments, the wine that was consistently the worst, least balanced, was the wine tasted without music. Even if somebody said I really didn’t like this music, it was a way better wine to them than without music. Even for the wine experts, the wines were much more palatable without music. I think that’s why sound can be a very, very powerful thing.
  • Can curated playlists in tasting rooms and wine bars influence how customers drink, eat, and experience wine?
    • Susan has worked with tasting rooms and wine bars to curate their playlists in terms of the experiences that they want their customers to have. You want to have people be a little more relaxed in the morning, but then, you start amping it up for the evening. I put together a complete journey, that sort of sonic seasoning for different expressions of their wines, for big bold red versus for their light, youthful white wines.
  • What happens when you stop overthinking wine and music and just enjoy?
    • Susan says that with the melding of music and wine, there’s still so much to learn. Keep trying things. Don’t worry about whether it’s right or wrong. Just enjoy the experience. Let everything come in sensorially and enjoy that and embrace again the mystery of things. We can’t explain everything through data, and that’s a good thing.

 

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The wine that was consistently the least balanced, the least effervescent, the most bitter, just bad on like everything, was the wine that was tasted without music. - Susan R. Lin Susan R. Lin Click to tweet

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There is a magic to live music that will never be replaced. - Susan R. Lin Susan R. Lin Click to tweet

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We can’t explain everything through data, and that’s a good thing. - Susan R. Lin Susan R. Lin Click to tweet

 

About Susan R. Lin

Susan R. Lin is a Master of Wine and a Master of Fine Arts in Classical Piano and Musicology. She creates memorable experiences through music and wine. Susan approaches her craft through an interdisciplinary lens, forged by her background as a high tech program manager, performing arts program developer, and as a classical pianist and dancer. Susan is also the Head of Wine Expertise for San Francisco-based boutique fine wine retailer Belmont Wine Exchange, providing personalized concierge services for clients worldwide.

Susan’s MW research paper ‘Influences of Classical Music on the Sensory Perception of a Brut Non-Vintage Champagne’ and subsequent work on the interaction of music and wine have been featured in Decanter, Food & Wine, GuildSomm, and others. Each of Susan’s creations is rooted in academic research and inspired by a deep respect for the essence of wine and music.

 

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  • The new audio edition of Red, White and Drunk All Over: A Wine-Soaked Journey from Grape to Glass is now available on Amazon.ca, Amazon.com and other country-specific Amazon sites; iTunes.ca, iTunes.com and other country-specific iTunes sites; Audible.ca and Audible.com.

 

Transcript

Natalie MacLean 00:00:01 How does music, even types you dislike, make wine more enjoyable? Can curated playlists in tasting rooms and wine bars influence how customers eat, drink, and experience wine? And what happens when you stop overthinking wine and music and just enjoy it? In today’s episode, you’ll hear the stories and tips that answer those questions in Part Two of our chat with Susan Lin, a Master of Wine and Master of Fine Arts in classical piano and musicology. You don’t need to have listened to Part One from last week first, but if you missed it, go back and have a listen after you finish this one. By the end of our conversation, you’ll also discover how a low pitched, slow tempo musical piece impacts the perceived fruitiness of wine. What is timber or timbre – I still can’t get it straight –  means in musical terms. How different musical characteristics influence the perception of wine’s effervescence. Whether the participants music preferences in the study she conducted correlated with their enjoyment of the wine. What might surprise you about how wine tastes in silence.Why the influence of sound on our perception tends to go unnoticed. How some winemakers are using music in their winery’s retail applications for Susan’s research into the influence of music on the perception of wine. Susan’s ideal live concert and wine pairing scenario. The possibilities in the future for AI generated music and wine experiences. Similar research on the intersection between dance and wine perception that really interests me personally. Future research areas Susan is considering in terms of wine and music. Who Susan would share a bottle of wine with outside the wine industry and why she’s got a really interesting guest. And how you can start being more intentional about exploring sensory experiences with wine and in music.

Natalie MacLean 00:02:08Do you have a thirst to learn about wine? Do you love stories about wonderfully obsessive people, hauntingly beautiful places, and amusingly awkward social situations? Well, that’s the blend here on the Unreserved Wine Talk podcast. I’m your host, Natalie MacLean, and each week I share with you unfiltered conversations with celebrities in the wine world, as well as confessions from my own tipsy journey as I write my third book on this subject.  I’m so glad you’re here. Now pass me that bottle, please, and let’s get started.

Natalie MacLean 00:02:46 Welcome to episode 347. On City TV’s Breakfast Television, I recently talked about how a good glass can elevate the taste of wine or cocktails. The grocery chain Loblaws sponsored this segment directly with the television station, but I was happy to be the wine expert since I’m a firm believer in great glassware. Although the promotion is over in terms of the discount Loblaws is offering on glassware, you can still purchase these glasses from them and other retailers.

Natalie MacLean 00:03:20 So with the heat rising, nothing beats a refreshing spritz to cool down and impress your guests. And who better to help us than our favorite drinks expert? Natalie MacLean. Welcome, Natalie. Hello, Tim. I’m bubbling over with excitement about these spritzer summer cocktails. So what makes a spritz cocktail so perfect for summer entertaining? Well, I think a spritz is summer’s best friend because it’s light and refreshing. And the beauty is in its simplicity. Usually just 3 or 4 ingredients: something sparkly, something sweet or bitter, and a splash of soda water. The spritz is the little black dress of cocktails, effortless, chic and versatile.

Natalie MacLean 00:03:57 And why does the right glass matter? We often focus on the drink. But the glass matters just as much. In my opinion, it’s like the frame around a beautiful painting, and these Spiegelau Capri glasses are stunning. Lead free and they’re made from recycled crystal and they frame your liquid creations. And that’s why you will find them in top restaurants and bars. They are also my personal go to for glassware, because I find they balance the right shape with an affordable price. Plus, the bonus is that their dishwasher safe. So let’s get mixing.

Natalie MacLean 00:04:32 What’s our first spritz creation? So we’re going with the St-Germain spritz. Just add two ounces of St-Germain elderflower liqueur that’s made from more than 1000 hand-picked flowers in the French Alps. That just blows my mind. Then three ounces of a top quality Prosecco like this one from Masi Modello. Then we’ll top up the glasses with a great soda water from Fever Tree. Nicely done. Now we garnish and add some mint and cucumber ribbons and voila! It’s like drinking a garden party. Look at how those bubbles rise so elegantly in the glasses. The clarity of the crystal really highlights the cocktails pale golden hue, and the shape enhances its aromatics. By the way, I’ll put links to all these recipes for these cocktails in the show notes.

Natalie MacLean 00:05:21 Well, what’s our second spritz? We have the Lambrusco Spritz. It’s made from Lambrusco, an Italian sparkling wine. It’s a delicious rebel red among white and rosé bubbles. We combine it with a premium orange liqueur like Cointreau. Top it up with some soda water for extra bubbles. And as I said to Tim, you’re a pro and I see a future for you behind the bar. Or at least in front of one. I add some orange slices. I absolutely love how we use these Spiegelau Capri water glasses. They accentuated the ruby red tints of the cocktail. It was like a sunset in a glass. Perfect end for a perfect summer evening.

Natalie MacLean 00:06:00 Now what about a non-alcoholic option for designated drivers and those avoiding alcohol? Well, the Mocktail Spritz proves that you don’t need alcohol to create something spectacular. I’m using a premium alcohol-free sparkling wine from St. Regis and pomegranate juice. The key is layering the flavours just like we do with alcoholic cocktails. Then the bubbles add that festive feeling we love. Even in a mocktail, the Spiegelau Capri red glasses elevate the entire experience. The shape carries up all the lovely aromas. It tastes like summer berries dancing on your tongue. Now wouldn’t you want that?

Natalie MacLean 00:06:40 Any final tips for home entertainers? Yes. First, chill everything. Your glasses, your wines, even your garnishes. Ice is your friend. But use large cubes that won’t dilute your drinks quickly. Fresh herbs and citrus peels aren’t just garnishes, they’re aromatherapy for your cocktails. And here’s a pro tip. The 3 to 1 rule works perfectly for spritzes. Three parts sparkling wine, two parts bitter or sweet component, one part soda water. Trust me, once you taste cocktails or wine in proper glassware, you will never go back to regular glasses. It’s like the difference between watching a movie on your iPhone versus Imax.

Natalie MacLean 00:07:22 Thank you Natalie. So where can we find you in these cocktails online? Well, on Instagram I’m at Natalie MacLean Wine. Online, my website is nataliemaclean.com.

Natalie MacLean 00:07:34 Back to today’s episode. Although I don’t have a trip for two to Vienna with orchestra tickets to give away, in honour of today’s musical guest, I still do have two copies of Decanter magazine’s new book, The Ultimate Travel Guide for wine lovers. And yes, there are tips on visiting Austria. If you’d like to win a copy, please email me and let me know that you’d like to win. It doesn’t matter where you live.  I’ll choose two winners randomly from those who contact me at natalie@natalie maclean.com. In other bookish news, if you’re reading the paperback or e-book or listening to the audiobook of my memoir Wine Witch on Fire: Rising from the Ashes of Divorce, defamation, and Drinking Too Much, a national bestseller, one of Amazon’s best books of the year I’d love to hear from you at [email protected]. I’ll put a link in the show notes to all retailers worldwide at [email protected]/347. Okay, on with the show.

Natalie MacLean 00:08:56 So on the flip side, I’m not going to pronounce this correctly, but Mazursky or something like that.

Susan Lin 00:08:59 That’s it.

Natalie MacLean 00:09:00 Okay. I’m not saying it twice. I’m not going to jinx that. Brought out more richness and fruitiness in the wine. Were you surprised that a low pitched, slow tempo music had such a powerful impact?

Susan Lin 00:09:11 Thank you for asking about the Mazursky. So this piece was written by Russian composer, very famous, called Pictures and an Exhibition. Perhaps many of our listeners have heard of it. It’s absolutely just a very stately piece, a very noble sounding piece. And it is very rich.  Long, long, sweeping lines of music. It’s layered and complex, but it’s all strings and horns and a very rich, rich timbre, very rich sound, and not fast. It’s very, very paced. Just again very noble. And the previous studies that for just isolated low pitch said okay this kind of brought out more of like a, perhaps a bitterness like in chocolate or other types of foods. But in this case, because music is not just one sound or one tom or one note in isolation, there are so many different things happening that this particular combination of parameters. The smooth articulation, the slow tempo, the low pitch and the smooth, round timbre rich timbre really, really prompted them to a perception of the wine as being similarly complex, rich. But the fruity part was the one that surprised me. So this was an interesting finding. So it was not something that I had expected from previous data or experiments, but I think it might be because the effervescence perception wasn’t as high as some of the other pieces. And what we can get into that more in a minute. But I think that part, because it was perceived as less vivacious but more powerful and complex, that the fruitiness actually was able to kind of rise above because the effervescence was actually deemed lower in the wines that were tasted with that music.

Natalie MacLean 00:11:05 That’s fascinating. And before we get onto the thing you just mentioned, what is timbre?

Susan Lin 00:11:11 Timbre is the way that the particular instrument sounds or the combination of instruments sound. So for example,  if you take a solo violin and playing very kind of high pitched and maybe it’s a very passionate piece, it can be a sharp timbre. If they’re bowing strongly on that, it can get like kind of a more percussive sound. So it’s kind of sharp. But then if you take a trombone, they’re not blasting away but they’re playing nice round notes. It’s a warmer, rounder timbre. It’s like how warm and round does the instrument sound versus sharp and bright.

Natalie MacLean 00:11:46 That’s great. And then how did the music relate to the effervescence? What brought out the effervescence versus putting it to the back kind of thing? What type of music?

Susan Lin 00:11:55 So with the data shows, is that the more high pitched and the more sort of percussive or sort of jumpy the articulation was along with a faster tempo. So the combination really kind of brought out people’s perception of effervescence and sort of a vivacious quality in a wine, which is something that for Brut and vintage champagne being a more youthful and fruitier  expression of Champagne is a good thing right.

Natalie MacLean 00:12:24 Absolutely.

Susan Lin 00:12:25 So it was really interesting to to see that. But, you know, I had two pieces that shared those attributes but were hugely different in character. So it was interesting to see how those two played out and how people thought of that. One of them was the Carnival of the Animals by Camille Saint-Saens, a French composer. It was the finale. And so it’s very nice and bright and light. It’s exciting. It’s gentle, not super powerful. If you have seen the Disney’s Fantasia 2000, the compilation, that’s the one with the flamingos and the yo-yo.

Natalie MacLean 00:12:59  Okay. Got it.  It’s really cute.

Susan Lin 00:13:05 It’s very cute. Go watch it. So it’s jumpy and it’s cute. People loved. People thought that was the winner in terms of best sort of wine statistically speaking. It was very significant across all the groups with all the data. That was the music that showed the wine best. And then the other piece was by Brahms, Johannes Brahms, the German Romantic composer in the late 1800s. So a little bit before a Camille Saint-Saens. And it was a violin concerto. In the third movement, and it’s high pitched and it’s got the sharp timbre, dynamic articulation, but it’s really exciting and it’s powerful. It’s not calm, it’s not gentle, it’s exciting and it’s powerful. It has a lot of richness in the orchestral layers. It’s just passionate, extremely passionate piece. It’s the piece that we’re. I feel like when I’m in a crowd I’m like it’s sort of like my Metallica. It’s riveting. But that was the second one, the wine that people said this was great wine, absolutely great wine was that. But with that combination, they rated the wine much more complex, much more rich, much more powerful. And they described the wine as if it was like a more akin to a vintage.

Natalie MacLean 00:14:23  That’s interesting. Did you get them also to score the wine out of 100 points at all?

Susan Lin 00:14:29 No. Besides all the one through nine on the different sensory characteristics of the wine: effervescence, fruitiness, freshness, etc. There was a 1 to 9 on how much do I like this wine? So there was a mirroring rating for the music. One of the things I thought was super interesting was that even when somebody said they heard the Mussorgsky Pictures at an Exhibition start playing, they’re like, oh God, I hate this piece.  That’s what they were thinking. This was what they said later and they were like, oh man. I actually really don’t like that piece. They scored it low, but still the wine showed pretty well because the wine that was always consistently the worst. Like the least balanced, the least effervescence, the most bitter, the least fruity. Just bad on everything was what blew me away. This I did not expect at all was the wine that was tasted without music.

Natalie MacLean 00:15:26 Really? They didn’t like the silence?

Susan Lin 00:15:29 I was blown away by the data. I was like, whoa! Even when they hated. If somebody said, I really didn’t like this music, it was a way better wine to them, even with music that they didn’t like purportedly, than without music.

Natalie MacLean 00:15:42 That is interesting. Why do you think that was?

Susan Lin 00:15:46 It’s so fascinating. I mean, each study begets questions, right. There’s so many other follow up studies that I want to do on a larger scale. I’ve done lots of smaller experiments through projects that I worked on, but they don’t have the sort of numbers that I could publish along to go with that. But hopefully in the future I will. It’s so interesting to me that even the wine experts who have trained so hard to assess a wine seriously and to be able to isolate the elements, etc.. And so I don’t want anything to distract you. And so our wine experts were saying I don’t want music at all when I’m studying and I’m tasting wines. I don’t want to be distracted. Music is not a good thing. But even for them, the wines were much more palatable. And through their sensory characteristics, ratings and through how much they like the wine showed much better than when tasted in silence. And as for the reasons. I mean, it’s really a good question. We don’t have the data on that per se. However, I have some just some thoughts. When we live, we’re just going through life and there’s multiple stimuli happening around us. And when we eat and when we drink tastings, it tends to be some sort of at least ambient sound. You’re not in a lab like situation like when you’re studying for the Master of Wine exam or something like that. I mean, that’s not like normal life. So that might be a part of it.

Natalie MacLean 00:17:03 We just like sensory input. We like to have…

Susan Lin 00:17:06 Yes. Perhaps. I think the power of sound could be because there’s a statistic that you might have heard of where almost more than 70% of our input is visual for those of us who have sight. So, hearing for those of us who rely more on sight tends to be a little bit more.  You don’t notice it more or the influences of that more so. I think that’s why sound can be a very, very powerful thing.

Natalie MacLean 00:17:34 Wow. We take it for granted and then, when it’s not there, we notice its absence I guess I don’t know.

Susan Lin 00:17:39 Yes. That’s a possibility. Exactly.

Natalie MacLean 00:17:42 Let’s see. Was there one participant comment that really either delighted or surprised you.

Susan Lin 00:17:49 Besides the one with the Master of Wine who knew was going? That was pretty amazing. There were so many. I loved them all. But one of them was saying I could not separate them. The music affected everything. Everything that I did, I could not separate the music from the wine or the wine from the music. It was complete. This comment was almost like, you know, this person said this in kind of shock.

Natalie MacLean 00:18:13 And there’s your thesis proven. Let’s just see here. So you’ve already said the wine professionals and the non-professionals still converged on their results generally, right?

Susan Lin 00:18:28 Yeah.  So I actually. For the wine experts and non-experts, it was really interesting despite the fact that the experts really were like, we don’t want music while we’re tasting. I actually isolate the data just to look for statistical significance within each group, within each demographic group and it was pretty comparable. I was astonished to see that. And then, of course, I ran the numbers across all participants again as well. And I actually did something similar for the demographics also were pretty much. Again, I was lucky that was even pretty much evenly split between people who had studied music and people who hadn’t. People who loved classical music. There were people who hated classical music. I had one participant tell me afterwards that he only really listened to hip hop, but he was astounded. He said, I am amazed by how well you paired the music with these wines. The music fit these wines so well. And I was like, whoa! So it’s mind blowing to me. And I just love the fact that each person came away with their own experience. And that is what I love about doing events and putting together experiences, because each experience that I create is going to be custom to whoever I’m working with and what the experience we want with the guests and the audience.

Susan Lin 00:19:43 But everybody came away with something, discovering that, oh, maybe not even just that. Well, maybe classical music is not so bad. It can be pretty awesome because the four pieces I chose were really different, really contrasting pieces. And having their own takeaways on the experience of tasting wine with music. And so that comment meant a lot to me because he really said that I loved the way you paired you paired these so perfectly, and I don’t even like classical music. I only listened to hip hop and this was great.

Natalie MacLean 00:20:14 That’s fantastic. So I can see there’d be lots of commercial potential for your findings. Do you think winemakers could use music in the cellar to influence their blending or barrel tasting decisions to make better wines.

Susan Lin 00:20:28 I love that question because there are a lot of folks who are doing things like this, even in the vineyard. Like Chateau Palmer.

Natalie MacLean 00:20:33 And what are they doing? Why are they playing music? So the vines grow happily.

Susan Lin 00:20:38 They love jazz over there. They even play music in different plots just to get those vines growing. And I have to say that when I was a kid, I planted my first tulip bulbs in my parents backyard, and I played music for them in the hopes that they would grow, because that was the least viable soil that there ever was. I still like to think that they came up because I played the music, but that has nothing to do with this, of course. But, I just got to say, in terms of data,  the research that I’ve been doing has been on possible influences of music on the sensory perception of a finished wine. But one of the experiences that I would like to do is to isolate frequencies. So frequencies, not music per se. I mean, music could be a part of it if the winemaker wanted to work with that. It’s been a specific way you could absolutely do that. But one thing I’d love to do is be able to isolate those frequencies and be able to say, okay so you have these different barrels, right. So if we have one that is being subjected to this kind of frequency or that other kind of frequency and one that isn’t, would there be any differences if we can control for their environments and things for all the other variables that are happening, like the barrels are from the same maker and the same age, etcetera, etcetera. All those other things. And even if they have to be apart from each other so that one vibration doesn’t get to the other one. Are they placed in an area that is the same for all other intents and purposes.

Natalie MacLean 00:22:00 Do you have a hypothesis that it would make a difference or wouldn’t or you just don’t know?

Susan Lin 00:22:05 We don’t know. But I think there might be just because vibrations make a difference. And we’ve seen those sorts of things in like studies for medicine, vibrations within the body can help with certain things or aid in certain things. I don’t know enough about it to be able to speak cogently on it at this point, but I know that there are studies about that. And so I think that somewhere in the grand cosmos of things, there might be and there are definitely people who have been playing music in their cellars for sure. Folks in Italy and Germany and all around the world who are doing this, and they feel like it does something for them, and especially if it gives them pleasure while they’re tending to their wines. Everything’s connected, right? You know, it’s going to go into it.

Natalie MacLean 00:22:46 So the energy or the vibrations?

Susan Lin 00:22:48 Yes. Maybe not directly in a scientific sense, but holistically. Yes.

Natalie MacLean 00:22:54 I can see this as an application in tasting rooms, winery tasting rooms. And I’m sure some wineries are paying attention to this, but do you think that could be elevated? Should there be specific playlists that you should have for winery tasting rooms that feature big reds versus, I don’t know.  Can you see retail application like that?

Susan Lin 00:23:12 Yes. And that’s one of the reasons why I wanted to do this study as well and to work in this realm, because I feel like it really does have implications, the trends that we find. I have done and am still working with various folks to not only do on premise. So I have worked with tasting rooms and wine bars to curate their playlists throughout the day in terms of the experiences that they want their customers to have. This sort of blends into the other research I do, which is a retail atmospherics, which kind of goes into decibel levels and speed of music that goes into how people order. Do they order less, do they eat faster, they drink slower, things like that. So that plays into the data as well for those. And so, if you want to have people to be a little more relaxed in the morning, but then make your way and start amping it up for the evening. And you want a nightclub feel at the end. So I put together a complete journey, like day’s journey for the types of music decibel levels and working, of course, with the brand itself, so that it’s the type of feel and the type of musical genres and the feeling that they want to impart. Because it’s all that’s very important, too.

Susan Lin 00:24:23 But then I also work with brands if they want to highlight, come up with maybe a feel for their house style in terms of that sort of sonic seasoning. You know, that sort of sonic sense or different expressions for their wines, as you said, for big bold reds versus for their light, youthful whites.

Natalie MacLean 00:24:41 Should send people into listening booths inside the winery. The headphones on.

Susan Lin 00:24:45 Yeah. Silent disco. Just experiencing it all together. So it’s really cool. I’m really encouraged by all the different multi-sensory experiences that a lot of folks are engaging with, whether it’s with music or with art work or visual art, other things like that and their wine experiences. So it’s my nefarious plan to a goal to always bring in music into these scenarios whenever possible. And then, when I’m working with performing arts organizations, to bring in wine.

Natalie MacLean 00:25:16  You’ve spoken about working with different brands. Did Veuve Clicquot itself have any reaction to your study?

Susan Lin 00:25:22 I kind of wish they had. But so far, no.

Natalie MacLean 00:25:25 They’re very guarded, so that doesn’t surprise me. I was just curious. They should invite you over to host an event for them.

Susan Lin 00:25:34 I tried. I tried. but it’s totally fine. And I’m just happy that they exist so that I could. It was perfect for the study. It really was. And you know what? Back to you asking how many bottles there were. I still don’t remember right now, but I do remember that I had one bottle left over that we didn’t use.  I just had one bought because I bought cases, right. Complete cases and one bottle left over. So everything was pretty well used. But I kept that bottle nicely chilled. And when I got the call from the Institute that I had made it and I was named Master of Wine, that was the bottle I drank that night.

Natalie MacLean 00:26:08 I’ll bet.

Susan Lin 00:26:09 It was just the Brut non-vintage but it was the Brut non-vintage/

Natalie MacLean 00:26:13 Must have tasted the best ever of all those little cliques you’ve ever had.

Susan Lin 00:26:18 I had spent so much time with it. So it was it was incredible. It was incredible. And that was the one I was like, oh, you’re coming out, buddy.

Natalie MacLean 00:26:26 That’s fantastic. And do you think, just as everyday drinkers, consumers, do you think we can improve our tasting ability if we play wine at the same time? Or is it just more we’re going to enjoy different wines in different ways. Is there a way we can upskill by using music when we’re tasting?

Susan Lin 00:26:47 I think that’s wonderful. We can always take any situation and find something that’s interesting that we can learn from, right? So I love that because I often do tell people, just start with something. Start with something that you like, you know, a piece of music that you like and any wine that you like. Don’t worry about trying to pair anything or whatever. Just pick what you like and then think about what you’re feeling. Don’t try to do anything specific, just what happens to just go through your mind. Words, even. And see how that informs anything that you’re used to experiencing in your wine tasting. Is there anything different? If it’s a wine that. Is there anything like a new adjective that pops to your mind that you didn’t think about before? And that can add a dimension to your experience of that wine and how you might taste in the future.

Natalie MacLean 00:27:35 So your vocabulary and…

Susan Lin 00:27:37 Exactly.

Natalie MacLean 00:27:38 Because you’re primed based on the music. So what would be your ideal live concert wine pairing. What would be the musical group or orchestra? What would be the wine and the venue? If you. Budget’s no limit. What would you set up?

Susan Lin 00:27:55 Oh my gosh. Wow. I could probably name ten different things, but if you had to force me to choose.

Natalie MacLean 00:28:04 Yes. Forced choice here. Forced choice selection.

Susan Lin 00:28:08 Oh my. Gosh. Okay. Two things are going through my mind like. Boom, boom, boom boom boom boom. Okay. All right. Okay. So it would probably be Maurice Ravel, a French impressionist composer. So his piece Valses, which is one of my favourite pieces of all time, it’s a huge work for for orchestral work that also has been sort of transcribed to piano. I have been labouring on this piece for quite a while and hope to have a performance ready soon. But full orchestra. It is a full orchestrated version. It’s like all the instruments. It’s not a small one and it’s got full percussion and everything else that comes in. It is such a beautiful piece that goes through almost every type of mood, from a beautiful, intimate little waltz to like inferno like type of situation. I mean, complete intoxication and madness. I love it so much. All the feels. I would have to come up with a flight of wines for these because there’s so much character so much change in what happens in this tumultuous and beautiful journey of this music that I would literally have to come up with a flight and then  go back and forth on them.

Susan Lin 00:29:16 And also the fun part is that sometimes you can do a contrasting one, like say maybe for this section, this is the one that was for an for another section, for a really assertive and loud bright section versus a quiet intimate section. Just switch the wines and try it and see what happens. Things like that. But more than anything else, I would just love to be lost in it and lost in the sensory beauty and richness. There would definitely be a sparkling. There would definitely be a white and a red. So for sure along that spectrum there would probably be two reds.

Natalie MacLean 00:29:54 It’s okay, budget’s no issue. Go ahead.

Susan Lin 00:29:57 One a little louder and one a little bit more robust. So contrasting styles.

Natalie MacLean 00:30:02 And where would you host this?  I was thinking that amphitheater that’s out in the open air where was it Pavarotti or the Tenors sang. And in amongst all the columns, the crumbling columns. I don’t know if it was in Rome or somewhere.

Susan Lin 00:30:15 Thank you for that because I was just going to say like south of France, open air.

Natalie MacLean 00:30:19 Open air is good?.

Susan Lin 00:30:25 At dusk, you know, going into night. Night would be falling as we do in. Then we would be there with our wines and it would be absolutely amazing.

Natalie MacLean 00:30:35 I love that.

Susan Lin 00:30:37 We got to make this happen.

Natalie MacLean 00:30:38 Yes, I know. We got take a guided tour or at least go ourselves. That sounds magical. The lights coming through the columns or whatever. The crumbling. Have you ever composed or improvised a piece of music inspired by a wine?

Susan Lin 00:30:51 Oh, not specifically, but I should. You know what? I love that. That’s a project. Thank you for that great idea. I am now playing jazz more as well, so improvisation is is definitely something that I have been trying to work a lot on it, but it is informing my classical music playing tremendously. And I actually have been inspired to do a lot more improvisation in the classical style, so I should probably do that. I should probably do that.

Natalie MacLean 00:31:16 Well, there. More homework for you, Susan.  I think you’re good at homework.And do you think there’s a future where we could design AI generated music for specific wines, or should we just avoid AI generated music period.

Susan Lin 00:31:31 Oh, you know, there’s really interesting stuff happening in the world of AI and music. There are companies like UDO who are  just really doing amazing, amazing work. And I’m really quite fascinated by what’s happening there. And I think that hopefully there’s something that we can learn from that as well. And, I think it’s entirely a possibility. I think it’s fun. But at the same time, I think there is a place always for human, especially live music. I mean, streaming, if you think about people used to only be able to hear music live, right?  There were no recordings. And then first and then you needed to get a recording. And now, I mean, everything’s just streaming, right? That’s a whole other topic. But, there is a magic to live music that will never be replaced.

Natalie MacLean 00:32:15 It’s true. Just like dance.

Susan Lin 00:32:17 Yes. But I love the fact that recordings can happen so that it can reach more people in ways that are meaningful. And at the same time, I could serve that part of that function, too. If you don’t have the means to be able to create the music, but this technology allows you to in a way that would be great for your wine or whatever. I mean, that could be wonderful as well. I mean, for me, bringing music into the sphere of wine in any way is a win.

Natalie MacLean 00:32:45 Right. I would love to say, hey Madam A, I won’t activate everyone’s Echo right now, but generate some music that will make my, I don’t know, modest sparkling wine taste like Moet Chandon. Take it away.

Susan Lin 00:33:03  I love it. I love it.For sure. There’s definitely ways to do that as they continue training the algorithms. You know, I think they could really perhaps do that in the future.

Natalie MacLean 00:33:10 So you’re a dancer as well in your background. Are you intrigued at all to study the intersection or could it be studied the intersection between dance and wine? Like watching, I don’t know, Swan Lake versus Alvin Ailey jazz or something. Does that interest you at all?

Susan Lin 00:33:29 It does interest me, for sure, because I was exploring this with San Francisco Ballet. You know, another conversation of doing something like that just for the experience of it. But of course, in this case, if it was a study, we’d have to kind of remove the music.

Natalie MacLean 00:33:43 Right.

Susan Lin 00:33:44 It would be really interesting. So if you’re looking at just movement based and style, it would be super fascinating. Like, you know, Alvin Ailey Revelations versus Swan Lake. Iit would be super interesting for sure. But I think experientially it’s really, really fun, fun idea. And for the experiment, I think if we do it without music and see where that takes us and see if that tells us anything, if at all. And then bring the music back in and have it be sort of like an ancillary part of that and see if that makes any difference as well, or if it pretty much is still this corroborates the data for the sounds music version.

Natalie MacLean 00:34:22 That’s true because people didn’t like the silence, but then again, they would have another modal input with the visual. At least without the music, they’d still be watching something. And is there another area of research you want to address next?

Susan Lin 00:34:35 Yes. Well, I mean, there are so many experiments I want to do in the same vein, but with different wines. I wanted to work on spectrum of different Champagnes, different methods of sparkling wine, not traditional methods sparkling wine, like Charmat method everything like that. And to see if there are any other nuances we can pick up on. But one thing that I would really, really like to look into, and this is something that I’ve been speaking a little bit with Doctor Laura Catena. She is an incredible human being.

Natalie MacLean 00:35:02 Oh, yeah. In her spare time, she’s an emergency room doctor in San Francisco with four kids. I mean, she has a schedule that could tire a horse, a plough horse.

Susan Lin 00:35:11 I don’t know how she does it, but here she is. And we’ve been talking about how do we explore if music can moderate the way that we consume our wine? So that can music be a factor in our consumption. And this dovetails with the retail atmospherics research that I was speaking earlier about with higher volumes, higher decibel levels and higher speed. Maybe  perhaps people eating faster, ordering more, whatever, or things like that. But how can music be used in a meaningful way to moderate our consumption as well, our eating and our drinking? That would be huge, not only in feasibility and undertaking, but if done well and done effectively could have really important implications.

Natalie MacLean 00:35:58 For the health impact, too. Absolutely.

Susan Lin 00:36:00 Yes, exactly.

Natalie MacLean 00:36:01 All right. Well, this has been so much fun. We’re going to go into just some quick questions and answers and feel free to pass if any don’t occur to you. But in the Museum of Susan Lin, which three objects would be on the central display? Things that are meaningful to you? What would we see?

Susan Lin 00:36:18 Oh my gosh. Okay, well, one would have to be a piano.

Natalie MacLean 00:36:21 Yes, true. It’s a big display. So you’re allowed the piano? Yes. Is there a brand? I’m just curious.

Susan Lin 00:36:28 Steinway. There are many wonderful, wonderful piano brands out there, but Steinway is my baby. I have a Steinway Model M salon grand at my home.

Natalie MacLean 00:36:37 You have two pianos?

Susan Lin 00:36:39 I have one.

Natalie MacLean 00:36:39 Oh, you have one.

Susan Lin 00:36:40 I have one piano.

Natalie MacLean 00:36:41 Okay. Gotcha.

Susan Lin 00:36:44 I wish I had two but it wouldn’t fit even in my house. But it is the most beautiful. It’s a 1976 produced piano and from the New York factory. And it is my most prized possession. I hesitate to call it a possession because it really is my master.

Natalie MacLean 00:36:58 And you are its prized possession. Exactly.

Susan Lin 00:37:02 I’m some kind of acolyte or something  that works away at it every day. So one would be a Steinway grand, and then the other would be a beautiful antique Chinese scroll that my grandfather owned. It’s kind of in the sort of mini shrine that I have from my grandparents at my house, with things that he brought back. He did a lot of things in life, but he was also a jeweler. In fact, this jade necklace was something that he had created. So it’s very special to me. And he went to a lot of places to scope out the raw materials, etc.. And he so he did lots of travels. He would bring back really interesting artifacts. And that scroll is one of those. And so I would love to have that there in memory of him and my family overall, and how grateful I am for everyone, my family, not just my mom’s family, but also my dad’s family and sort of a symbol for the extended family of every one of my life who is so important to me.

Natalie MacLean 00:37:58 So that’s two items. How about a wine?  Would there be?

Susan Lin 00:38:01 I was going to say. I kind of want to have this be, like, cheating to put two things in one. Because it would have to be a bottle of beautiful Champagne, but with a potato because…

Natalie MacLean 00:38:14 With a potato?

Susan Lin 00:38:16 Because I love potatoes.

Natalie MacLean 00:38:19 Wow. You really are shabby chic. High, low, whatever you want to call it. You like potatoes, okay. Potatoes in any form?

Susan Lin 00:38:26 Pretty much.

Natalie MacLean 00:38:27 Okay.

Susan Lin 00:38:27 Pretty much. But, like, you know, Champagne and potatoes go really well together.

Natalie MacLean 00:38:32 Well, I was thinking of potato chips, but I guess potatoes. Starchy.

Susan Lin 00:38:37 The humble potato can be absolutely be elevated into these incredible dishes, right. Like Jean-Roubaixan  type things, you know.

Natalie MacLean 00:38:45 That is true.

Susan Lin 00:38:46 Beautiful, scalloped, dauphine, all those sort of things. You can go anywhere with that.

Natalie MacLean 00:38:51 So, I’m just thinking of this potato sitting on your Steinway, though. That’s the visual I’ve got now. She’s got a potato on her Steinway. Well, there’s at least there’s Champagne on it, too, so that’s great.

Susan Lin 00:39:02 I kind of cheat at the end there.

Natalie MacLean 00:39:05 All right. If  you could share a bottle of wine with anyone outside the wine industry, living or dead, who would that be?

Susan Lin 00:39:12 Oh, yeah. I think it would have to go with Johannes Brahms again, the German romantic composer, because he was a very, very private person. But in his music, you know how much he felt, how emotional he was and how deeply feeling and conscientious he was. And I just would love to be able to have a conversation with him over perhaps one of his favourite Rieslings from the Mosel, and to hear him talk about anything, really, just to learn more about him. And so I would have a more understanding of his music, and I would be able to incorporate that into my interpretations of his work.

Natalie MacLean 00:39:50 Lovely. Well that’s wonderful. This has been great. Is there anything that we haven’t covered that you would like to mention as we wrap up?

Susan Lin 00:39:58 Wow, we’ve covered a lot of things. I’ve loved all of your questions there. So insightful. And I really, really appreciate your interest in this fascinating subject…

Natalie MacLean 00:40:07 Well, it is fascinating.

Susan Lin 00:40:08 of  the melding of music and wine and the interactions thereof. There’s just so much to learn, and I think there’s anything that I would want to impart to our friends and listeners and communities is keep trying things. Don’t worry about whether it’s right or wrong. Just try anything in terms of pairing with music, bringing it into your wine experience and  just mess around a little bit and see what happens, what flows through your, your mind. Just enjoy the experience. And sometimes, like all of us, we’re always just, like you said, going through life, working so hard and trying to be accurate on everything. Don’t worry about any of that and just let everything come in sensorial and enjoy that and embrace the mystery of things. We can’t explain everything through data and that’s a good thing.

Natalie MacLean 00:40:59 I love it, I love it. How can people best find you online?

Susan Lin 00:41:03 Well, they can find me at Susan R Lynn. That’s S-U-S-A-N-R-L-I-N  on Instagram, on LinkedIn,  X if anybody’s still on there. But I’m not particularly great with social media  to be perfectly honest. But I love to see what everybody’s doing out there and to to support the community and to share everything that we’ve been learning. So I’ll always pop on every so often. If you reach out to me, I will definitely respond to you. And you can find me also at susanrlin.com

Natalie MacLean 00:41:33 Your website.

Susan Lin 00:41:34 You can reach me. There’s a contact form there if you want to reach me through email as well. I would love to hear from you.

Natalie MacLean 00:41:41 We’ll put all those links in the show notes in case people are scrambling to write this down. But, Susan, this has been absolutely delightful. Thank you so much for sharing your passion, your research. I love what I learned today, so thank you so much for being with us.

Natalie MacLean 00:41:57 Well, thank you for your enthusiasm for all things wine and life and for being interested in this. And I enjoyed our conversation so much. Thank you.

Natalie MacLean 00:42:06 Susan, cheers for now, but I hope we meet in person next time.

Susan Lin 00:42:10 Looking forward to that.

Natalie MacLean 00:42:11 Okay. Bye for now.

Natalie MacLean 00:42:13 Well, there you have it. I hope you enjoyed our chat with Susan. Here are my takeaways. Number one. How does music – even types you dislike – make wine more enjoyable? Susan says that in her experiments, the wine that was consistently the worst and least balanced was the wine tasted without music. Even for those who said I really don’t like this music, the wine was perceived to be better to them than when tasted in silence. Even for wine experts, the wines were much more palatable with music. And that’s why she thinks sound can be a very powerful thing. I find that intriguing.

Natalie MacLean 00:43:01 Number two. Can curated playlists in tasting rooms and wine bars influence how consumers drink, eat, and experience wine? I guess you don’t eat your wine. But anyway. Susan has worked with tasting rooms and wine bars to curate their playlists in terms of their experiences that they want their customers to have. You want people to be a little more relaxed in the morning, she says. Then you start amping it up for the evening. She puts together a complete journey, the sort of sonic seasoning for different expressions of their wines, for big, red, bold wines versus light, youthful whites.

Natalie MacLean 00:43:34 And number three, what happens when you stop overthinking wine and music and just enjoy. Kind of like life itself, I think. Susan says that with the melding of music and wine, there’s so much to learn. Keep trying new things. Don’t worry about getting it right or wrong. Just enjoy the experience. Let everything come in sincerely and enjoy it and embrace the mystery of things. We can’t explain everything through data and that’s a good thing. Amen.  In the show notes, you’ll find a full transcript of my conversation with Susan, links to her website, the video versions of these conversations on Facebook and YouTube Live, and where you can order my book online now, no matter where you live.

Natalie MacLean 00:44:20 If you missed episode 111, go back and take a listen. I chat about Icewine cocktails and pairing them with chili chips. It’s divine. I’ll share a short clip with you now to whet your appetite.

Karen King 00:44:33 We decided to pair it a game with spicy appetizers, things like tortilla chips or anything that has a little spicy chili and heat, kind of a flavor to it, so that people could taste it and see how it pairs. Because it has a big initial impact of complex fruit, then it goes through that caramelized flavour, and then it gets into its acidity. And usually at the end there’s another kind of fruit note in this case it’s the orange tangerine grapefruit note. So I’m going to have you taste it straight up first just so you can notice the last notes. And you really have to pay attention for this.

Natalie MacLean 00:45:13 I’m loving that. I don’t think it needs anything.

Karen King 00:45:15 You mean food?

Natalie MacLean 00:45:19 Yes. Just pair it with more of this.

Natalie MacLean 00:45:26 You won’t want to miss next week when we chat with Steve Hoffman, a tax consultant and food writer who has written an award winning memoir called A Season for That:  Lost and Found in the other Southern France. He’ll join us from his home on Turtle Lake. If you liked this episode or learned even one thing from it, please email or tell a friend about the podcast this week, especially someone you know who be interested in learning more about the interaction between wine and music. It’s easy to find the Unreserved Wine Talk podcast. Just tell them to search for Natalie MacLean Wine on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, their favourite podcast app, or they can listen to my show on my website at nataliemaclean.com. Email me if you have a sip, tip,  question, or if you’d like to win one of five copies of the books I have to give away.  I’d love to hear your thoughts on this episode, or if you’ve read my book or are listening to it. Email me at [email protected]. In the show notes, you’ll find a link to take a free online food and wine pairing class with me called The Five Food and Wine Pairing Mistakes That Can Ruin Your dinner And How to Fix Them Forever at nataliemaclean.com/class. That’s all in the show notes at nataliemaclean.co,/347. Thank you for taking the time to join me here. I hope something great is in your glass this week. perhaps a wine that floods your senses and makes you happy. You don’t want to miss one juicy episode of this podcast, especially the secret full bodied bonus episodes that I don’t announce on social media. So subscribe for free now at nataliemaclean.com Meet me here next week. Cheers!

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