Video: Organic and Biodynamic Wine with Thomas Bachelder

Our guest this evening is a Canadian winemaking superstar. Not only does he make wine here in Ontario, but he also has vineyards in Burgundy and Oregon.

This is a man on a mission when it comes to cool-climate Chardonnay and Pinot Noir. The Bachelder project started with the 2009 vintage with the three terroirs series: Three regions; Three wines. As he describes it, the hands, techniques and the palates remain the same, only the terroirs change.

And he joins me live now from his home in Niagara: Welcome to the Sunday Sipper Club Thomas Bachelder!

Here are just some of the questions and issues we discuss:

What was the moment when you realized that you wanted to make wine?

What’s your favourite failure? What did you learn from this experience that made you stronger or better in some regard?

Now take us to the best moment of your wine career: what happened?

What’s the most memorable thing someone has ever said about your wines?

What is something that you believe right now that some people think is insane?

What’s the harshest criticism you’ve received about your wines?

What was something you were wrong about as it relates to making wine?

Why is making jam liking making wine?

Today is Earth Day, so please give us a high-level definition of organic wine versus organically grown grapes?

Organic versus biodynamic wines?

And how do those differ from sustainably farmed wines?

What would surprise people most about organic wines?

Aside from lower impact on the environment (which is not insignificant) why do you think winemakers should move to organic viticulture?

Can winemakers in all wine regions become organic?

What are the special challenges in Ontario?

Are these similar to those in Burgundy or Oregon?

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Mark Lai1:20:43 Wow, “dry extract”…love it. That is one of the many new things I learned tonight. Thanks Natalie and thanks Thomas! I just bought a mixed case of Queylus! 

Stephen Andrews1:26:39 Thomas is a gem for Niagara and Ontario wine industry.

Natalie MacLeanHe is – And don’t forget Burgundy too!

Stephen Andrews1:21:03 Make sure you attend the Pinot Affair in October in Niagara





Domaine Queylus Tradition Chardonnay 2015
Niagara, Ontario VQA, Canada




Elaine Bruce1:00:38 I’m heading to Bordeaux soon ! I do prefer the right bank. I will check out Trafalgar SQ too

Linda White Alexander5:15 Here, Natalie, and looking forward to learning more on this topic with you both!

Eric Sykes43:40 Why is it that chardonnays are always getting a bad rap chardonnays extraordinary

Lise Charest Gagne5:20 If I remember last year Thomas was pretty funny







Bachelder Saunders Vineyard Chardonnay 2012
Beamsville Bench, Niagara Peninsula, Ontario V.Q.A., Canada




Colleen Kilty1:23:42 A mesmerising session. Thanks

Patti Wright Hollander1:19:55 Fabulous time tonight!

Elaine Bruce45:40 Pinot Noir is the best – goes with so much and the blind tastings I’ve done – the French do it best for my taste buds . I think I can taste the age of the vines.

Linda White Alexander15:21 How do organic and/or biodynamic wines work with those who have allergies, or are gluten free, etc..



Domaine Queylus Winery



Mark Lai14:37 Is it fair to say that Organic is more common in N.America than S. America? What about other parts of the world? Australia? S. Africa?

Andrea Shapiro19:29 Sometimes the element of surprise is exciting (wild yeasts) sounds like part of the fun can be the unpredictability🙃

Beverly Asleson1:22:59 Best of the best interview

Lise Charest Gagne1:02:37 I’m coming this year for the first time to this winery





Domaine Queylus Tradition Pinot Noir 2015
Niagara Peninsula, Ontario V.Q.A., Canada



Carolyn Hetke46:28 Canada has come so far in the last 10 years… I love the tension of Niagara wines

Lori Kilmartin45:29 I agree about the lead up! And don’t waste good wine on people who don’t appreciate it!!!

Lori Kilmartin7:57 Do you practice bio-dynamic as well Thomas?



Lori Kilmartin32:02 I love your wines Thomas!!






Bachelder Johnson Single Vineyard Chardonnay 2013
Yamhill, Oregon, United States



Lise Charest Gagne22:11 What do you pair with that intriguing Pinot

Elaine Bruce46:29 sacrificial wines …lol I always leave a bit in a glass to go back to and smell

Paul E Hollander2:22 Good evening Natalie and Thomas. Look and sound great.

Mark Lai24:21 Are the rules to call a wine Organic the same around the world? Or, do the rules differ from country to country?




Deborah Podurgiel49:34 love those wineries. Kismet is another favourite *(*

Deborah Podurgiel54:07 enjoying Aspire right now from Kahala Organic winery. Cheers. DLP *(*

Oenologize1:20:23 Thanks so much Natalie! Great as always! Nice to see you Thomas, always a treat to hear you ‘wax poetic’ 



Lise Charest Gagne36:56 I call silky wines satin seduction





Domaine Queylus Réserve Du Domaine Pinot Noir 2015
Niagara Peninsula, Ontario V.Q.A., Canada



Beverly Asleson39:46 I agree salmon with Pinot Noir!

This alphabetical list is a guide to the words most commonly used by us professionals (often with a blithe lack of precision) in connection with both the flavours and the dimensions of wine. Note how many different terms describe acidity and tannin, some of them complimentary, others critical, depen…

Eric Sykes39:04 Duck goes well with Pinot

Stephen Andrews53:04 Frey natural red USDAorganic





Bachelder Saunders Vineyard Chardonnay 2015
Beamsville Bench, Niagara Peninsula, Ontario V.Q.A., Canada



Paul E Hollander1:23:49 Super time tonight!

Elaine Bruce1:22:36 WOW. TY

Charlotte Cadieux2:07 Love 😍😍Pinot

Lori Kilmartin35:26 If you declare “organic” – is there more than one body you have to pay fees to? Ie. Ontario? United States? Europe? Do they all collect $$ separately?



Deborah Podurgiel48:32 I agree, Canada has come so far in the past 10 years — just look at the diversity of wines in BC now! *(*


Lise Charest Gagne31:14 I love beamsville wines it’s my fav region in Niagara

Eric Sykes27:27 Buena Vista and Raymond Vineyards are they organic


Lori Kilmartin16:11 You mentioned the “cost” to certify. Who is collecting the money to give you accreditation?




Domaine Queylus Tradition Cabernet Franc 2015
Niagara Peninsula, Ontario V.Q.A., Canada



Lori Kilmartin10:29 Is the cost to certify with the LCBO? or another governing body?


Lori Kilmartin39:54 I love Pork with herbs and Pinot


Sam Hauck1:19:07 Great listening and learning from Thomas.

Lise Charest Gagne54:09 I’m getting this blended cab wow




Domaine Queylus Grande Reserve Pinot Noir 2015
Niagara Peninsula, Ontario V.Q.A., Canada



Lise Charest Gagne10:51 Do you have options for people to come help with the harvest?


Paul E Hollander23:18 Can you use open fermentation for the wild yeast propagation as done with some Belgian beers?


Elaine Bruce55:08 I love all these winemaking tips ! thank you . I need to become an intern


Elaine Bruce38:10 French vs American oak – which do you prefer ?




Frances Furmankiewicz22:41 Will organic wines cellar as well as their non organic counterparts?

Mark Lai9:03 What is the difference between “organic” and “Biodynamic”?


Kimberly Inksater12:08 Does organic wine making also mean natural fermentation (no added yeasts)?


Mark Lai19:25 I found a few Organic wines in my cellar in preparation for tonight…Southbrook Cab / Merlot, their Chardonnay and their Icewine. Also found a California Cab – Bonterra. I am environmentally conscious but Organic wine hasn’t been a main focus of mine when buying wine. Should it be?




Domaine Queylus Grande Reserve Merlot Cabernet Franc 2012
Niagara Peninsula, Ontario VQA, Canada



Lise Charest Gagne35:53 What is Thomas best pairing


Lise Charest Gagne11:55 Copper also compounds it builds up


Lise Charest Gagne1:08:02 How do you recognize these corks


Lori Kilmartin41:11 Truffle cheese and Pinot!!! Awesome!





Domaine Queylus Reserve du Domaine Cabernet Franc 2015
Niagara Peninsula, Ontario V.Q.A., Canada



Lise Charest Gagne42:23 Perhaps a nice goat cheese chedar


Mark Lai49:10 Vidal…at least for Icewine


Paul E Hollander0:00 Several years ago we used to watch “Devine Life” (2006-2007) with Peggy Perry and others. Predominantly, they showed wineries in Canada. It made us want to visit then and after the past year plus of the Sunday Sippers, we want to visit even more.


Lise Charest Gagne50:12 The hipster cab sav



Gregory Hughes1:17:24 Yeah. Softspot for st. Veran

Stephen Andrews55:04 Quelays yummy

Oenologize40:44 Époisse cheese with Pinot?


Gregory Hughes39:53 I absolutely love root vegetables with Cdn Pinot and Cab Franc. Especially parsnips, sunchokes etc…





Domaine Queylus Grande Reserve Merlot 2013
Niagara Peninsula, Ontario VQA, Canada



Eric Sykes34:29 Very interesting live on love the education and I can’t wait to try your wine

Louis Dugas0:00 What a wonderful broadcast! Cheers!🥂






Natalie: 00:00:01 Your thoughts turn to organic wines, biodynamic wines,
sustainably farmed wines, but what does all of that mean?
What’s the difference between organic wine and say
biodynamic wine and even sustainably farmed wise and our
organic wines? Any better for you health wise? Do you have less
of a hangover? I’m Natalie MacLean, editor Canada’s largest
wine review site And we gather here
every Sunday at 6:00 PM eastern to talk to the most intriguing
people in the world of wine. Now our next guest is going to
answer all of those questions for us about organic wine, but,
before I get into that, in the comments below, just let me know.
Yes or no. Do you think organic wines are better for you? Yes or
no? All right, folks, I am going to introduce our guest.

Natalie: 00:01:40 Welcome to the Sunday Sipper club show. Thomas Bachelder.
Hello, hello! Thomas, to get us warmed up now, maybe before
we dive into that topic of organic wines, can you remember the
exact moment when you knew you wanted to make wine?

Thomas: 00:02:21 No, what I, when I came home, when I turned 18 and 6’5 nearly
six and four and three quarters, one point 196 centimeters. So I
got a lot of drinking done before I was 18 in Quebec and not
drinking but tasting. And I started bringing wine home to the
table for my parents. I’m probably much like you on Sunday
nights and they love that. And from there I got a home wine
making kit. And so that was probably it, my brother bought it
for me. And from there I became a wine journalist. Not As
accomplished as yourself, but I was, I showed promise from
then I joined, the appearance of wine tidings and went to wine
school from there and be, at the time there was no Brock
University. So I fell right into the Pinot Revolution in Burgundy
and rediscovered Chardonnay that for many Maine holidays as
Montrealers Montrealer, Ottawa people will do that.

Thomas: 00:03:24 They go to Maine, it’s the closest we love. We love our Nova
Scotia. New Brunswick, Maine is really close. And I’ve
had so much bad Chardonnay knew down there. Now Caveat
California makes me but. That’s not what I was drinking. I was
drinking. I was drinking nine 99 Chardonnay, which was pretty
goopy. And so when I went to Burgundy, of course, we all
liked the idea of organic gardens, no pesticides, no herbicides,
and know synthetic fertilizers. But in Burgundy, it was really in
burgundies quality revolution because it was in the early
nineties. And at the same time, all the young ones like Becka
Marchand, who later came to be my boss and friend through
the closure. And then as they were turning things around and
they have, you know, thousands of years old terroirs and if they
don’t have that, they’ve got nothing. So they were first about
protecting the earth and stewarding that land for future
generations after that, it tastes better. Was it better for you or
something we can get to later in the show, but that’s where it
came from? Learning to make wine and going to school in

Natalie: 00:06:23 Okay, good. There’s a nice sound. I love that. Are you thirsty,

Thomas: 00:06:38 Thirsty? I’m trying to guess what you have open. We’ll see if, I
guess right.

Natalie: 00:06:42 Oh well, you know, it kinda started the top of the line because I was
pre-tasting last night and of course a free tasting last night. One
of your wines became our dinner wine and that was the the
Grand reserve pinot. I’m sure that’s not where we want to start,
but we want to start with the pinot. I’ll bet.

Thomas: 00:07:02 Yeah, no, that’s what I just popped because I wanted to make
sure you got to it. So the reserve.

Natalie: 00:07:11 Yes. This is a stunning, stunning wine. I mean, is that like, okay,
the, a. is there a particular story behind this wine? The
Queylus grand reserve

Thomas: 00:07:22 there? Sure is. That’s a great one to start with. So I’m going to
remember. So one of the first things is, queylus is 100 percent
organic and the winemaking organic. But here’s the thing, and
this is what I say at any trade show and you know, I think I saw
your tastes Ontario probably be seeing you at different shows,
which is our agent comes to Ottawa and I tell people right away,
you know, queylus this is owned by 12 competitors who are just
in love with Ontario in love with Niagara. And I said, We got to
organics and they said, yeah, but you know, we’re new to this. I
said, so don’t certify. So my straight line on that is when you
don’t certify, nobody has to believe you, but it’s the truth. and
you know, someday we’ll hopefully get around a certified, but
meanwhile, walk the walk and make good wines.

Thomas: 00:08:14 it’s a scary place. Ontario in terms of only one thing. Those two
big lakes have so much humidity that’s not like burgundy,
burgundy’s, landlocked and Oregon has those mountains from
the sea, but were raised here the summer, humid in the false
humility. And that leads to fungus, right now you can use. So for
copper, they help and those` are mine minerals that are organic,
but you got to watch it. So we’ve been in the game 8 vintages
now and we’re still organic, but you know, if somebody wants to
see me, you want to walk the walk buddy certify, I’ll say, well,
okay, well you ready to write the check if something goes
wrong. So I mean that’s the main thing is new organic. And then
after a fight it out with yourself. Whether you certify in with
what body

Natalie: 00:09:03 you’re saying if you have a bad year or there’s a lot of mildew
rot, you may have to go off organic standards and do something
to save the crop.

Thomas: 00:09:11 That’s right. I mean, and, or, you know, one of the things
you do is you get a sorting table when you make pinot noir. And
when things go off, you may have to pick a couple of days
earlier before things fall apart. There’s an expression in our
industry fall apart. That means for the advancing, you know,
things are going perfectly. And then the rains come in, there’s a
hurricane down in Louisiana and we get the tail end to that and
it’s enough to even have cabernet grapes are tight and hard
and a month away and pinot is just blossoming and getting
lovely. And that’s when you say starting a table, let’s get some
temporary workers. We need six people on the table at all time
and you can make a beautiful wine in those years. So I would
argue that you never have to resort to that stuff. Right. And we
had a wet summer last year as you did not align. Okay. This
didn’t spray anything nasty, you know.

Natalie: 00:10:01 Okay. Well, you know Linda Alexander and Mark Lee are
both asking the same question, which is a question I had intended
to ask you a. But they’re on the ball here. There is asking what’s
the difference between organic and biodynamic wines?

Thomas: 00:10:17 that is a great question. And it’s by fluke I was reading a new
book that the guy really addressed it well. Michael Steinberg.
And what’s his name? He writes for Slate. Yeah. And he says
very simply, of course, I’ll just say from my own experience, but
I can’t help but be influenced him because I read it this morning,
laying in bed thinking about earth day and the organics and
biodynamics is the same from an organic viticulture point of
view and from a winemaking point of view. Okay. It’s not non
intervention. You can use mine minerals as I said earlier, like
sulfur and copper to spray and put them into water and spray
and they helped protect any rainfall they get washed rate at.
Now, one thing I want to say, I’m going to forget. So this is not
whether you’re in organics or biodynamics, the copper is a
metal, it’s a heavy metal and you can eventually get toxicity in
your soil.

Thomas: 00:11:16 So even with organics and biodynamics, we’re watching copper
like a hawk. We have virgin soils are right here compared to
burgundy. So. So I learned from the Burgundians they actually
look at the load they’re putting on a vineyard every year and
they try to skip treatments. Imagine that your organic, we’re
using organic materials and you’re trying to get treatments. It’s
like not taking your full antibiotic dose when you’ve been sick,
but we do that to try to always use the least intervention we
can. So from there, by the dynamics on that base of all that stuff
we talked about and if anybody’s confused

Thomas: 00:11:54 about what I said, please write Natalie and I’ll clear it up and I’ll
say it better but, but by the dynamics now does something else
which it really responds to the phases of the moon and the
planets and it looks at

Thomas: 00:12:06 what time of the year, you know, how can, how can the equinox
is not affect us, how can you know solace, this is not affecting us,
my god, you know, you know, animals, how the wound, how
can we not be effective? We’re just not aware of that. So
Rudolph Steiner who thought of all this back in 1924 a and
brought this program to people in Germany and Poland who
were having suffering crops from too much artificial
fertilization. Fertilization is as big a problem as anything, right?
It’s not just the pesticides you spray, right? And so, and fungus
sites you spray. So fungus size is against rot. Pesticides are against
bugs and herbicides is against grass and weeds. You don’t spray
herbicides, you have to hand hoe or machine. Whoa. It’s a lot
of work and it makes it, it makes the price of viticulture go up.

Thomas: 00:13:01 But if it goes one step further beyond the phases of the moon
and everything and use this several preparation, all named 500
and something that I believe that when you use a homeopathic
amount of something, it sends a signal that greater good. So I
mean, you know, a crazy one. This is not. By then I mean like a
crazy great example that I love is Oregon farmers sitting in their
fields thing, hundreds of birds coming in, killing a couple and
burning them and putting their ashes on the end posts on while
it seems ridiculous. And I had to I reacted Like that back in early
2000 is ridiculous when birds are super smart and if they see
that their friends there are burnt and they can smell that, you
know, so you either believe that this stuff works or you don’t,

Natalie: 00:13:53 right? Sounds like a game of thrones thing put them outside of
the city on the pillar walls or whatever. I think,

Thomas: 00:13:59 you know, I think the thing is this, if this is too confusing, if
people disagree with this, here’s the thing, all by dynamic
practitioners of all biodynamic practitioners and I’ve, which I’ve
only been in passing with the closer than I’ve been organic all
the time, but I got to tell you all why biodynamic practitioners
are excellent organic viticulture list as well because they have to
be paranoid and they have to be on the money and if they’re
trying to skip a sulfur treatment, our skip as a copper treatment,
all legal, inorganic, then they replace it with a homeopathic
treatment. They better be on their game, you know. And so it’s
a very, very admirable thing. And, one that’s probably
better to do if you have, if your bank accounts in the black, but
also if you have property out of longstanding as he does in
the hall and he was able to figure it out based on a background
of success already. So those are just my cautionary words.

Natalie: 00:15:05 No, that’s great. .and Kimberly says, does organic winemaking
making also means natural fermentation? No added yeasts or no
culture yeasts

Thomas: 00:15:21 yeah, it does. And apparently, now they’ve got some that are
admissible in certain certifier so there’s not only one certifying
body and there’s many and you can choose them based on how
proud you are of how stringent they are or who will let you get
away with stuff. Right? and getting away with stuff, you know,
what does that mean? You know, it’s, it all depends on what
lens you’re looking through. But certainly, I’ve always used wild
yeast because I’m not because I want to be organic, which I do
that because wild yeast grows on the grapes in the vineyard in
the year of that production, so It’s a year that’s headed to 14
percent alcohol based on the sugar in the grapes or a year has
headed to 11 and a half. Those use grew in that year too. And
there’s a logo, there are lots of different clones of the yeast and
they’re all different in the complexity and almost for sure when
I smell a ferment, I can’t say always on the bottom, Natalie,
because there are so many other things like they the oak aging
program and how long it was in bottle before you know to to
get more perfume in the report was released and all That stuff.

Thomas: 00:16:28 But basically they’ll enter into. I can smell it when it’s a, there’s
a simplicity to added yeast. It can be fantastic and they make
your life easier. They produce less volatility. They can be more
reliable but not always for mentors. So it’s like a drawing for
winemakers that they use. They can use it east for my package
to get the desired flavor profile by mixing a bunch of packages. You
do not get the complexity of wildlife, not because there are not as
many different individuals, but because all those individuals
have been selected and bred to be perfect. And I’m, I’m, I’m not
knocking a use because when I have used it in the past if You
have a year that is 14, five potential. In other words, I’m not
sugar in the grapes to give you 14, five. Like in Oregon for
instance. it’s happened in Niagara to has happened in burgundy.

Thomas: 00:17:20 The problem is towards the end of ferment as the alcohol. I
don’t know if people realize this, but let me take one step
backward. When you have sugar and grape. The yeast
transformed that into alcohol. We know that, but also the
byproducts or CO2 And you know, so you’re getting to a point
where the, as the alcohol raises in wine and enter that and the
sugar goes down, the alcohol starts to be to the eighth times. So
when you get closer to the 30th, 13, five, 14 east go, I’m done,
I’m outta here. And so the last few grams of sugar can be very
hard to format and that’s where winemakers are totally
organic will buy an organic piece and just finish off the Furman
because if they don’t, other math things that start to happen
like volatility or the is the vinegar flavor rising.

Thomas: 00:18:15 And, so in places that are routinely hot, like California parts
of California, people are worried about this. And so they will
finish their frame and even if they start while, so that’s,
that’s part of this whole cool climate thing. It’s not organic
Niagara’s hot, considerate counties hot because we regularly
make wines between 12 and 13 to nationally with no shop
dualization. These cool climate wines are not only digestible by
humans, but they finished their ferments naturally with wild
from it because the eastern is stressed. That was a long story.
I’m sorry, but that’s a great question.

Natalie: 00:18:53 Wait, yes. We’ve got so many coming in and they’re about to
fall off the screen. I’m Linda Alexander asks, do organic or
biodynamic wines, are they better for those with allergies or
gluten-free or anything health wise? How does organic wine tie
into health? Are the any

Thomas: 00:20:03 Here’s something that almost smacks of, you know, either
creationism or else very enlightened Darwinism, which is why is
iT that copper and sulfur in the field and also work in the
winery, like who thought that up? Why is it that the
fermentation gives off ceo to which protects the wine and then
when you put it in the barrel, there’s a malolactic fermentation,
which also gives us ceo to best protecting the wine. There’s
natural sulfur that’s occurring in wines which protect the
wine. Winemakers in Bordeaux, I think it was figured out three
centuries ago that they burned to software, wic, wic, that was
dipped in sulfur, in the barrel. The barrel stayed fresh, and then
when the wine went in, that was their way of adding salt to the
wine. So because by then that makes an organic sound, strange
and strange levels of total sulfur.

Thomas: 00:21:00 You can use free software. Organic wine makers are very
aware of that and try to keep it low so it’s not because the fruit
is better unless somebody proves something about pesticides,
but it’s not like. So far, nobody’s heard that pesticides in a wine
have heard a human being maybe because everything drops
out, right? Everything drops out with the ladies in the wine and
you get this clear wine. that’s the whole thing about why, why
it’s so pure white people in Europe to drink wine instead of
water. When the water supplies were doubtful because wine
purifies itself, but generally there will be fewer sulfites, inorganic
and especially biodynamic wine. Also natural wine, but that’s a
whole other.

Natalie: 00:21:42 That’s another show I’m environmentally
conscious, but organic wine a hasn’t been the main focus of
mine. When buying wine, should it?

Thomas: 00:22:11 Well, I’ll tell you something, but I love just answering straight.
You know what I think you get more. Power is a bad word. I
don’t like that bad. You get more power in life. Somebody come
up with a word for us, I think to get more power From telling
the truth. Right? So for instance, we’re talking about two
projects tonight as well as Oregon. Queylus, whIch is organic, but
not certified and bad shoulder was what’s called an immigrant in
France and batchelder buys in grapes. So when I was at a
school, I said you know, I’m always going to be organic.

Thomas: 0which42 well, when I got to meet somebody in by grace, if I can’t get
organic grapes, but I can get a good premier cru and burgundy
or a great single vineyard tonight, I got a ticket because I got to
make good wine. So the answer to that is, you know,

Thomas: 00:22:56 a non-organic wines can taste great, great, great cars, cars even
in, um, even in situations where people are more conventional,
there’s greater cultures for a conventional. We want to protect,
protect their crops and their investment. So even in that
situation, those people are looking to not spray and not put on
product so that they can save money and have a venue that
turns a profit. because believe me, profitabIlity is the best
sustainability, right? Or else you can go on. And so, so that’s
where I was testing when I started batchelder because organic
grapes were much more available in burgundy and Oregon than
they are here in agora and that’s because it’s harder here. So if
you grow organic grapes, you bloody well keep them for
yourself. it doesn’t matter whether your name was thomas bad
shoulder or natalie mcclendon or romany conti. If you’re
working in Niagara and you don’t own the vineyards, you have
to kinda just be happy with the best vineyards you can get and
then encourage them to become organic and it’ll happen slowly.
We know that this world can continue at the rate is going and
not only about plastic water bottles, right? Which we hear a lot
about today. It’s about everything. We have to find really smart
ways of doing things.

Thomas: 00:24:14 Organics isn’t just like, it’s not, it’s not. It’s not just a thing for
him anymore. Examples. That’s a thing for everybody. Someday
everything will have to be organic and that’s not like my fervent
belief it is, but it’s just the way it’s going to have to go if we’re
going to have these many people on the planet, right? Yeah.

Natalie: 00:24:30 Especially enjoying good wine
um, how about cellaring do, do organic wine cellar well Thomas?

Thomas: 00:24:58 Well, you know, I think, uh, Peter Gamble who’s done so many
good things right now, he’s starting vqa out in. I’m in, um, in
nova scotia and doing benjamin bridge and you know, like fulfill,
but here he does Stratos and he’s got a bunch of things like
we’re being. And one of the things you saId to me is, thomas,
you can be a lover of terroir and not be a lover of vintages. I
said, well, you need as well as you have to accept the role of
the vintages and consumers. Enlightened consumers should
accept that wine is 13, five, one year and 11 five another. It leaves
winemakers more ability to just deliver the real thing.
Right? So I think, but what trumps almost everything is old vines
and terroir. When you have a great single vineyard in France, it’s
called premier coup or grand Burgundy.

Thomas: 00:25:52 We have a great single vineyard with older mine’s. What they
deliver is something that the consumers don’t hear about much.
It’s called dry. Extra thick and dry extract is standard in a lot of
this, but a social scientist, when you boil down the wine and the
only thing that’s left is to dry extract. It’s like the soul of the
wine. The stuff that came from the grape skins that give, makes
a wIne have more minerality or more attention aside from the
city is what you extracted that gave the flavor and you can go
and look it up online. Folks while you’re. While you’re listening
anyway, but as it pertains to one the dry extract and the soul of
the wine that was grown in, all that stuff adds up together. So
it’s 10 in alcohol. Some wines hold on acidy, someone’s holding on tannin
in some wines.

Thomas: 00:26:44 Hold on, alcohol and age and improve. You need all three, but
the best thing is a great site that all lines perfectly farmed.
Believe me, it’s a simple recipe, easy to say, hard to find. Where
do you find old vines and prince are the counties, you know,
making great wines, but so all that, there’s something going on.
One more second old vines. What they do is they buffer out,
they buffer out, say it buffers out the hot year. So all vines with
deep roots in high years. Those deep roots get water and they
still make good fresh wine in wet years when the young vines
with their surface roots are just soaking up the rain and making
bloated grapes. It’ll taste like anything. The old vines are like,
okay, by the time you get down to my roots, you know, uh, the
water won’t be as much of an effect. So, uh, I’m not saying old
vines are the only good wines. What I’m saying is usually the
wines that will age the best is a well balanced here with wines
that have lots of soul and dry extract masquerading well, but
not too much. Just everything in balance. Those are the ageable

Natalie: 00:27:54 Wow, that’s fantastic. I love that concept of dry extract. I can
almost apply it to humans at the end of our life as we become
shriveled and dried up, but it’s kind of who we are
and our personalities of concentrated anyway. Probably not the
right terminology.

Thomas: 00:28:09 One thing, and I mean, you know, we all say like if I needed a
drink sometime, but aside from that time, I would like to talk
about times when you’re somewhere and whether it’s a wine
bar in New York city or Ottawa or Vancouver downtown
portland or inner vineyard in the lore or somewhere and you
just take a glass of wine and it beyond the alcohol, beyond the
flavor. It’s Almost nourishing.

Yes. It’s like a plant that comes back to life. The moment
Thomas: 00:2Moments the soul with the french called nsg would scientists called dry
extract minerality. All that comes together and that is the
nourishing aspect of wine. Really. It is. And, and, and ultimately
I’m in great, great lover of red wines, but the reason the planet,
you know, invests more in the red wines, go to higher except for
pneumonia and great things. The reason it goes more to read is
reds have tended to have, tend to have more dry extract and
hence more Asia Billy White substance or something. And I
mean white men to three hours in the press read, spend three
weeks on their skins and then an hour in the press. So they’ve
been, they’ve been to school or graduate degrees or whatever.
Can I tell you one thing you asked Courtney, please go back to
Those carriers do. Yeah, you hold it.

Thomas: 00:29:35 They have, we have, I’m not an investor, but I’ve been with us
since day one and Queylus’s made It possible for Bachelder doing
this because I was able to not take a salary from Bachelder or
something, mary too much because she’s worked for us for
eight years, but we’re trying to build something small and cool.
they’re 12 competitors invested in
Niagara and beam selling Jordan. And one of the old look closer
identity clause was called leopard teeth, Colleen Jordan. And
that’s blended with their home site. Fim scale to do this now.
Can you see this here too? So that’s like contrary. You hold it up.
Now that’s Ontario. And the lighter blue is shallow and the deep
blue is the deeper part of lake Ontario. And the jfk. This is where
the domain is, so that’s what they did it because of there so
enthralled to be the first come is like over the moon about
niagara and they said, what do you want?

Thomas: 00:30:34 They said, well, you have full reign. We started back In 10 and
they say, well we want a tradition or reserve and the ground
reserve your choice. Each one is a blend of the two vineyards,
beams mill, and Jordan. Eleven clicks apart and as you can tell
the rom reserve, you get more to the old, the closure dan site,
that’s 70 percent of new doors which used to be called left
cheek guardian and it is like chewing on what stones and we go
with the best part of that vineyard and then we take the best
barrels. Kelly and ivy associate winemaker at Kelly Mason and
we always looked for something chisel that doesn’t give it up
right away. This wine doesn’t give it up on the first page.

Natalie: 00:31:13 No, no, no.

Thomas: 00:31:18 Does. When you can still age, tradition, tradition, preserving
rom reserve and the reserve is always which, which, which I
also opened because you opened it, the reserve is more punchy
and a little more obvious, but still luscious and lovely and
tradition. What’s a good way of saying? Yeah, that’s the one you
see in the lcb on the sac, this acute most of the time.

Natalie: 00:31:42 Yes. Absolutely.

Thomas: 00:32:41 So here’s the thing, while these are
everywhere in nature, right? And when you start a new winery,
you’re worried that the wild east won’t come because it’s a
crystal clean building, but they do come. And I’ve seen this a
couple of times in startups in Oregon and here. Um, but this is
where you have to rely on the french because french is jumping
your. So in french yeast is jumping all in English, it’s a fungus.
So, but we don’t think of the east as, a fungus yeast.
But whatever it is, when you apply to many fungicides on your
plan to kill, right? You killed a wild yeast. So That is why organics
is hand in hand with these. But let me tell you, that’s a great
news. So you’re not killing them while the bad news is why you
can get some bad funk with organics you gotta really know
you’re doing, especially in Ontario, Ontario is one of the best
future places to make great pinot noir and chardonnay amongst
other things.

Thomas: 00:33:45 But It’s also one of the most precarious, right? We have this thin
muscles land that’s called Niagara and a thin band called Lapier
Northshore. And another thing, ben called Prince Edward
county and they’re all in contact with water. So we’re extremely
continental and we’re almost like maritime as well. When your
opinions come to use to come to visit me, in the end, are coming
out of it as okay, this is Bachelder. If they’ve come right from
the airport and they’ve been sleeping as they’re tired of an
overnight flight or whatever, and They wake up and beam so.
And they look at Lake Ontario, they think it’s the ocean. Oh,
you’re on the east coast. Well, it’s a little more center than the
east coast. And that’s lake Ontario. You can see across it. You
can see Toronto office site. But that way you can’t see across the
so that water has a profound effect. So I like to think when we
harvest Burgundian varietals, we are very much like burgundy
where we’re at the end of, when these varietals will ripe in
September, they were rotting. But once you push through those
rains, then you become maritime lightboard Bordeaux because
the water and lake Ontario stays warm. Lake Ontario never
freezes for a long time. And that’s another show. Then the
whole thing about the lakes, it’s a fascinating subject. It’s taken
me years to sort of understand, you know.

Natalie: 00:35:06 Wow, that’s fantastic. I want to give a shout out to the people
who’ve been sharing our video already. There are 17 of them,
so I’ll just name a few because some also have their settings to
private mode,
Thomas, we should taste through these wines a bit more.
so we’ve mentioned, okay, well we’ve mentioned all three
pinos. Did you want to say anything more about the pinots or?

Thomas: 00:36:00 No, the queylus pinot is, it’s just, you know, wild yeast minimal
intervention, everything by gravity and then 16 months of barrell age,
and I’m going to say something about barrels and chardonnay,
but I’ll try not to say it now, but I will say about barrels and
peanuts because you buy a cheap wine out there and it’s so
chips and it’s for the effect of the oakiness like winemakers at a
very high level, like 20 bucks in about. They do not want old
penis. They want silkiness and suave. What’s the word? Swag,
mr. Sure. Yeah, That’s it. Just go as they want, they want
terroir in their wines and the best way to kill terroir is to have
too much out. So the idea that, oh, is a vessel that oxygenates
the wine tawny porter in oak for two years, 10 years or 20 or 30
and vintage port in an old for a year or two.

Thomas: 00:36:59 So vintage port is in importance in penetrable and you need 20
years of a bottle to get there. Tommy port doesn’t smell like oaks
and I was like in nature, right? If you can ever have 20 or 30,
which natalie, I know you have and I’ve had a couple, but when I
go into a wine bar I’m like, what? 40 bucks a glass, no things.
And so when pinot noir 16 months and he is not too old, we’re
too old, there’s not exist in my vocabulary is 10 barrel age and
the oxygenation the barrel makes things perfumed and lovely
and textured and the great wine writers of the world. And uh,
never including yourself because it’s not doable. It’s so hard to
talk about texture and I can’t do it, you know, it’s like you can
say great texture and to about minerality and try to
differentiate it from tenants and ashen texture. The wine has it
or doesn’t dapsone layers of flavor we say. But I mean,

Natalie: 00:37:59 but like silk silken try to get to that touchy feely. But I love trying
to get at the texture. But you’re right, it’s such an important thing
that we, that we miss often. Lisa is asking, what is your favorite
pairing for any of these pinots food pairing?

Thomas: 00:38:21 I want Natalie to go first.

Natalie: 00:38:24 Okay. Well, I would love to have maybe a tender piece of veal.
Um, what else might I have some game birds like quail cornish
hen I’m not very imaginative.

Thomas: 00:38:40 Very good already. I would say so I worked started
Lemelson vineyards where I worked for four vintages at west
from 99 to 2002 and he’s a vegetarian pescatarian and he ate a
lot of wild west coast salmon with a, you know, Pinot. Whereas I
found at the time because it was um, but he’s been a great
influence in my life and because I love wild salmon with
chardonnay, it’s so good, but peanut goes really, really well with
salmon and shouldn’t be forgetting. Not forgotten. he taught
me that with these wines open, we’re going to do a salmon and
the barbecue tonight because we can, because it’s 16 degrees
here, it’s 14 in Ottawa, isn’t midsummer here. And so I
would say that and then I would have to go people say doc and
peanut butter. I would have to go with Natalie on this one-second
foul tag, Guinea fowl, pheasant. Anytime somebody will
make those things for you, you should bring them a bottle of

Natalie: 00:39:44 Okay, there you go. I just find it. So food friendly, just about
anything. And, and really, I mean if you like pinot and that’s what
you want to drink, just have a been in between. If it’s not going
with the food, we don’t need to get too caught up on perfect
pairings. Um, but there is an optimization of pleasure if you, if
you want to partake. Eric sykes agrees. A duck goes well with
pino beverly, like salmon and pino. Laurie likes pork with herbs
and pino lease a is wondering which cheese with pino. You guys
are hungry. It must be getting close. Yeah. Well, what would you
say for cheeses, would you say a soft cheese or?

Thomas: 00:40:25 I don’t know. That’s a tough one because for me now with
coding and also the time I spent in burgundy, worked for three
domains over there after school, including the general rule on
shayanne, marius tillerson, this. And then of course when I went
back there for Bachelder, I watched the times change and the
burgundians literally when they moved to their shoes, whether
it’s combat or very, very rarely a cheddar, but they were more
likely when they feel him in cheddar moon, go to a context is
just 60 clicks away. And content or cheddar kind of
cheese, although they’re very different flavors, you know, they
always switch back to charlotte and they love it. And I got to say
that with, with cheese and peanut oil, for me it works so well by
watch yourself and says to yourself at a dinner party or just
alone, can I really taste the piano the way I did now? Or is it just
total pleasure? Pleasure is going to. I’m not against that. But if
you, if you paid a lot of money for a pinot, I might be more like,
let’s finish it, the cheese or come to it after the cheese. now I
would love to be educated or somebody knows how to counter
that statement, but that’s generally they knew to be safe. I’ll
move back to the unfinished chardonnay

Natalie: 00:41:43 oh absolutely. And Lori Kilmartin has a brilliant suggestion. Have
you ever tried that? Truffle inflected cheese? We got. Sounds
great. Yes. It’s called truffaut. There’s probably other brand
names for it that would be a killer with pinot noir. But you’re
right thomas. I think, you know, there’s such a mouth coating
texture that the richness, the fatness, you need a chardonnay
with good acidity. And our last talk a year ago, we were talking
about that one of the many reasons why you like to do penal
than chardonnay, or at least that you learned about it, was that
the french would start off and they’d have their pinos and so on
with the meal. And then at the end when the cheese plate came
out, they go to the chardonnay. Um, and one more point that
you brought up last year that I just want to make sure we
include this year was that a lot of people feel like they have to
go to whites always first and then go to reds. Whereas what
they really want tO do is just get to the red. So give them the
reds first. That’s what they want. Then they’ll relax and then
there is this interesting thing that happens after tasting reds
and then going to whites. It’s like you relaxed and your palate, I
guess. I don’t know if it’s more open, but then you start to
appreciate chardonnay where you think you might not have
liked it in the past.

Thomas: 00:42:54 Nothing to add to that. I forgot what we talked about that. But
yeah. You know, one of the things I wanted to say was that, um,
was also the conduct of the concept that john sandbrook who
started to get me inside in Canada, taught me about the
sacrificial lamb, which is, if I may, especially talking about dinner
parties, if you have less, the old way of saying this would have
been a great burgundy or premier crew or ground crew on a
show. Let’s put that on it’s ear and say you want to show what
you think is a great canadian pino. So you pull out, you know,
your northern hardy or you pull up, excuse me, you pull out,
you know, someone from flat rock or from in bench while at
war or whoever and you and now at the table, let’s make it
more complex.

Thomas: 00:43:40 You have friends who are not convinced about canadian wines,
certainly not canadian red wines. So what I would do in a case
like that, I would get a pretty good burgundy or Oregon or
California. Pretty good. Not too good. So you’re serving a single
vineyard from Canada. 40 bucks, let’s say. So now you start with
a 25 black wine, do not let them finish the bottle, it’s a sacrificial
lamb. So they get back piano in their mouth, right? And uh, and
then you take it away from the sideboard and now you serve
the whole model of your toP line so it can be Canada in this, in
this instance, but it couldn’t be burgundy and, and I, and also
the concept of interest comes in if you want to serve something
old, don’t serve the first one being new doom server 20 slash 15
and then in 2009, 2012 and in 2009 and it gets harder the older
it gets.

Thomas: 00:44:33 But the main thing does not ever, in my humble opinion, sir,
great wine, whether it’s from Canada or elsewhere, put coal to
your people and expect them to understand it. You have or
something less good. And why I say a pin on law or a lesser
village or um, you know, I don’t want to say what village, but I’ll
just say that if you taste the wines before, of course, and you
say, yes, this is a good religion from a brick. I mean
remembering the wine to a Canadian from minor Canadian
wine. I liked his progression. Half the wall. They like it instead
of saying, never say this is the best Canadian wine ever. You
must like it. Do you have experience with this now ladies? Just
for. It’s not going to convince the doubting Thomases excuse the
expression. I hate the way to do it as lead them into it. right?
You know?  the sacrificial lamb can be used
with any grape types. Yeah.

Natalie 00:45:25 I love that idea. The sacrificial lamb. I’ve only had the concept of the
decoy wine, like the wine I want people to go for if they don’t
have this, but the sacrificial lamb. I liked that concept even
better, but you know what? it’s. It makes sense because even
when I’m tasting anything, whether just Personally or
professionally, your first taste of the day, your palate is not
calibrated. I mean, you know, not to get too fussy and fancier
precious about it, but you know, that acidity hits you, that flavor
hits you and it’s like, oh, and I always say, don’t judge a wine,
any wine on the first sip. So what we’re doing is sort of
conditioning their pallets, the way we would condition a glass,
maybe roll that glass around, get the wine all, coding it, and
then dump it out so that we don’t get any detergent, smells
nothing. So we’re calibrating our palette and then bringing on
the wine as You said. But I love that sacrificial lamb much better
than my decoys wines.

Thomas: 00:46:21 Well, it’s different, you know, you’re just using a wine to set up
another one to make sure it shows well and both before and
remember to think about vintage, right to similar rangers wines.
I would love to keisha cabernet from if you’re off for us.

Natalie: 00:46:39 Absolutely. Let’s do that. So they have that here.

Thomas: 00:46:43  I think that the reason I touched on this
earlier, it’s taken me years to understand this because I’m a
slow learner. I’m not from here. I’m from quebec, but when I
came back from burgundy, I hope to get the eastern townshIps
going on pinot noir and some people are doing it, but
techniques have advanced that, that geothermal stuff now.
Whoa. That was a good one. And but then it wasn’t
impossible. It just, like when I went to school was not a
possibility to come to school at brock and brock and niagara
college is doing wonderful things in churning out, get a
culture. This, my nephew Higgins is that great now
during a good culture at niagara college has come from
montreal to become a winemaker, but to great grapes, you
know, so nag is really doing it now in terms of school but didn’t
exist when I was there.

Thomas: 00:47:34 So when also didn’t exist, whereas cabernet and um, when I first
was at niagara, people were only doing hybrids back in 87 when
I visited. And a lot of wine writers are going out and no limb,
and I’ll test you Natalie, and you’ll have your own preferences,
but most people say is if we had a five here, they would do a
riesling chardonnay, pinot noir, gamay noir, and cabernet from.
That’s where they would do in ag. Or what have you thought
over the years about that? Five or sixth-grade fridays. What do
you think workS consistently for you? Without dissing anybody?

Natalie: 00:48:14 No. No. So the ones that you mentioned, if, if, uh, you went
quickly, but pinot noir, cabernet franc, riesling, pinot noir,
gamay, but also chardonnay for sure.

Thomas: 00:48:24 Chardonay Yeah, for sure.

Natalie: 00:48:26 For sure. Yeah. But the others are there either experimental and
not much of a track record to go on. Not consistent, not the
volume. The end up, You know. So I’d be looking for that first
before recommending, but those would be the sixth grapes I
would go with.

Thomas: 00:48:44 Yeah. Well whaT convinced me about cabernet from which we
do for tennis but not for batchelder, is that the guy who set up a
sawyer. So rose at west, he comes from bordeaux and he set
out painted rock. Oh yes. This new venture also setup keyless
keyless. We’re just friends of mine. I never thought I’d work
from my phone. I was gonna move to burgundy for my next job.
Well, because it turned out we started back shoulder and they
started killing us and we’ve done both since day one. But thIs
guy,  you can definitely google
him. He’s one of the order was great consultants but more in
the viticulture side and he said that the lake lincoln lake shore
has a specific application for cabernet morale on the blue clay
soils they have there and I only found out and I thought, what’s
this consultant?

Thomas: 00:49:37 how am I knew him for years, but I mean why is consultant
telling them to do something? The boys at key lists when they
want to have an all pino domain, their domain was patterned
after the closure. Then they loved the clear down they wanted
to do it themselves. Well, he did it because of the soils and for
that I got to say if any of you are, there are consultants and you
get your client to do something they don’t want to do, you have
to wear the load. If it doesn’t work out right. I wouldn’t be more
like I can sell two. I’d be more like, where do you want to get,
let me help you get there. He was, you will plant cabernet from
and myrtle here because it’s like pema hall and when the french
are like that, remember french canadian. That’s not french.
French canadian and the french are the french canadians that
with the french, it’s a different deal. They have an entitlement
and none of us north americans have, but they’re also very
smart and they have years of tradition and cabernet, merlot,

Natalie: 00:50:38 So it’s the same or similar soils to palmer role. And, and what,
what does blue clay do for this wine? Why does it work for.

Thomas: 00:50:49 Come on, come on, soccer. Pretty flat. And so that’s um, right
bang berdo. And  people forget that over in bordeaux is
not just, oh, the left thing, people want more cavity. So, you
know, I said the right bank for some reason, I can’t remember if
we’ve all read this, but the point is they moved right then
merlow fantastic. They didn’t learned from and my first year in
the cellar with these, with kay, this, I put a drop of cabernet
franc into the murder and the murder and the murder was
suddenly something came alive and it had some roman perfume
and some gravel. Any phone you put a drop, and this is 14
percent are low, which is legal on the label is wrong. And we
prefer to send marlo in. The reason being, it got really confusing
having cabernet from hyphen melo and another one that was
myrtle hyphened cabernet from that means the percentage,

Thomas: 00:51:47 The way the laws go. So if you have more than 15 percent of
any variety, it has to be hyphenated on the label. so we
Keep it less than that, but I wished the laws will change. The
other thing you can do is a great thing about marketing, you can
have a blended red wine so you know some of them or some
this and then you do whatever the hell you want. You can call it
a merit tash, but mary has officially dead. They killed the
contraction of heritage and merits, I think started in the states
for the bordeaux blend when bordeaux blend, but here in
niagara cabernet franc goes so well. Just a little bit of. I’m just a
little bit of merlow thickens up the mid palate.

Natalie: 00:52:33 Is this anything like shiraz and a dash of viane?

Thomas: 00:52:36 Yeah, it’s like that. It really is like that and you know, in the
cellar it’s really realized slowly that I had done a great, great
thing. He had honored the terroir at the risk of losing his job
because he hadn’t seen this blue clay. Higher hill is red clay and
that’s why her it been called clay stone and laurie tas has a new
called redstone because those red soils, they’re just slightly
reddish and the moose soils are slightly blue and the, you know,
the sandy soils are slightly. Sandy or as you get close to lake,
right, but they’re all variations on a theme, but isn’t this lovely?

Natalie: 00:53:16 It is gorgeous. I must say, and I’m just getting, um, maybe it’s
just a tasting is subjective, but I get like this sort of violet’s the
blue floral shirt. Blue. Yeah.

Thomas: 00:53:29 Long, long barrel age. Remember with longer marrow lesion.
Not too much. Not too much new oak. It’s all in oak, but the
wine digests it and it puts her in this bill for perfume and the
chemistry, uh, a tradition. A reserve. So there’s tradition,
reserve and grom reserve. And the difference here is that the
ground reserve is a merlot with some cafa going to
chardonnay. What was it?

Natalie: 00:53:58 Well, depends on the time. Don’t your time to. Let’s do what
was the last red we have here? We have.

Thomas: 00:54:09 The reason I picked this is because I know it’s right now and I
know you reach across the border, so it might be fun for my
friends to check this out.

Natalie: 00:54:22 AbsoluTely. Yes, please. Let’s do it. I’m just wondering to the sea
of bottles here thing

Thomas: 00:54:28 one thing with the ground reserve and the one thing I would like
to do is, you know that sideways movie. Yes. Remember that as
my house?

Natalie: 00:54:41 Yes. I’m not drinking anymore.

Thomas: 00:54:45 That’s right. and you know what? Here’s the thing. The
California merlot he was talking about I think is bait and
tasteless, but merlow is a great, great like, you know, and I like
what we said earlier and we got some bags about truth. The
truth is here’s the grapes that die in the heart. Niagara winters, the
great vines that dive back to the ground are merlot sonia on
blown own, yay and cfr and give her a distributor and a few
more. Here’s a concept. Imagine you just won the lotto and
you’re buying aNiagaraa. And um, I can’t tell you a nursery, lake
area and, and prince edward county because I don’t know them,
but I love them. But in niagara, if you put something in your
stable that could die back in a cold winter, you might say, what’s
that in my business plan for? But the answer is all of those
grapes, unfortunately, ripen beautifully here when it hasn’t been
a tough winter and have classic mid atlantic flavors like you
have to question yourself, whether sonia and belonged to first a
own a cmr, and of course morello from nagra or from here or
from the old law, but they’re done well

Natalie: 00:56:00 man. Atlantic, meaning they have characteristics of both the old
world and new world,

Thomas: 00:56:04 mid atlantic, not in us. The us has appropriated that term
for several states, but I’m talking about not quite as far as the
resource and the capital. I could go back to it and this is a long
discussion, but I would just like to touch on that is I’m laura.
Cabernet from is great and you have to get into the bell pepper
there and love it and you can also get into their grade limestone
terroir. But Cameron, you fall. We’re there. They haven’t done
the world’s best job of getting it out to the rest of the world. it’s
just a fact. And so people it for no good reason. When you’re
going into a war, it’s one of the loveliest wines in France, in
California and places like that. It doesn’t have a true varietals
character except for the coolest sites. So I always say when
you’re tasting cabernet franc, it shows tastes like bell pepper a
bit a little bit now, but not in spades, right? Certain kiwi.

Natalie: 00:57:00 for a little grassy is okay. But a lot of like heavier
lawnmowers. No,

Thomas: 00:57:07 and so, so in Niagara we have people doing massive extracted
cabernet frost with american oak barrels that reminded one of
the zinfandel. You Americanple doing a very, very fruity style
once you have very few people doing no cabernet, just cabernet
and merlot. So that first one is if you’re a lover of raping
sensimilla yon and satellites code, the more people don’t
know those wines as much as they should and those. That was
the first place I ever visited before we’re in a burgundy, so a
great love for cabernet and merlot and their association with
cabernet sauvignon is a different thing for a warmer climate
bank for pull yak against azure ad yang, but I’m on the other
side. These wines in Canada and when you put together, they’re
more like a sense of own. So encourage your readers to check
out essentially middle. Y’all can like that before the cabernet

Natalie: 00:58:10 Yeah, that would be interestin comparison. but this is an extraordinary, merlot. I just love it

Thomas: 00:58:35 So this has to says 15 percent of cabernet and it is from 13. so it
see oldest wines, we’re gonna taste before we go to the white
wines. Yes, Canada is capable of delicacy and I think we’re really
trying to develop a collegial atmosphere here in Canada right
now. It’s kind of his time. I mean the elder trudeau was wrong
with them. Quite happen, but for many reasons, cannabis
happening now. I’m not just wine and I like to think like
every year we all go over to london and none of us can afford it.
We’re going to london on the queen’s birthday this year. It’s
May 17th, 40 canadian wineries until fall of the square. And for
those listeners who aren’t canadian or don’t remember, and I
certainly didn’t know grandpa can come back. You don’t so
much about the queen, but you do a square with the national
gallery and nelson’s column and the lions.

Thomas: 00:59:29 You have New Zealand house Australia house, a brick house in
Canada. House last Canada house was worth one point $5
billion or something. It’s such an old building that’s five for
canadians to do trade missions there. So in the May 17th, there
wIll be 40 wineries there from bc and nova scotia, including
come back doing the great wines there and the british wine
writers, we get the good ones because It saves them a trip to
this big country and we get together once every year. We’ve
been six years in a row and stuff like thIs morello and they just
think how is it possible? And I say, what are you shocked about?
And they say, I’m not shocked that it’s a good region because
we’ve seen lots of good regions come on. New zealand, South
Africa or again they’ve seen them Over the years. You show
your. But what they’re shocked that is Canada subtlety, when to
say, well, it’s not just powerhouse, it’s subtlety and it really is
cool climate and the world needs more of those regions. Right.

Natalie: 01:00:29 You said in the past to power and complexity and so on. Come
in a small frame like. And I think the analogy you made the last
time we talked is imagine clothing you pay more for a silk shirt.
It’s delicate, it’s exquisitely crafted, but it’s, it’s not like, you
know, the more you pay, the bigger the clothing. It’s, it’s
actually you could pay for something that’s small and exquisite.

Thomas: 01:00:57 That’s right. And so natalie might be wearing a lovely, so talk
and I might be wearing a heavy cotton roots thing. We might,
we might be both comfortable but hers is. Hers is more elegant
and maybe easier to rent. My roots thing won’t work, but it’s,
it’s more like it’s not a cost. So if mine would be a whole wheat
bread, both things are important in life. right?

Natalie: 01:01:22 Absolutely. All right. Let’s move on to the shard day then
because. okay. what would you point out? I’ve got four of your
whites here for.

Thomas: 01:01:33 Well, I would say I wouldn’t, I wouldn’t do the audacious thing
I’ve never done, so let’s do it on this show. Let’s manage with
the kindness because that puts it in the cleanup position and
that is a tough position for it because of where it’s located. But I
think we’ll understand and hopefully people will try this online.
Do you want to try just, I don’t know if you’re just a thirteens or
do you want to do the twelfth and the 13th

Natalie: 01:01:58 up to you? I’m fine either way. I’ve got them all here.

Thomas: 01:02:02 Well that’s okay. Let’s do the 12 from sanders are. And your
name is bill. One thing, one thing I should say is that, um, you
know, people should come and visit niagara because they would
see things like, let’s say yOu go to burgundy and you say, oh, I
just can’t remember the burgundian villages. why do these
people, they always know so much and how am I? Can’t learn
them? Well, the first time you get in a car or a train or a bicycle
from regional and you go south past these mythical villages and
you see in a generation time, maria sends a the jumbo. I’m using
the clothes show steady sitting out there in the fields. You don’t
forget it. And if you actually made the effort to come tonight,
what we want you to drink tonight, but if you make the effort to
come here and you see grimsby being spilled by inland Jordan
on a bench, much like in burgundy, perhaps not quite as pretty
as the oldest buildings, but the point is that you will remember
by seeing and you will truly see that being spelled.

Thomas: 01:03:11 You can almost throw an epic athlete can go a very long ball and
hit the lake. So beams is that once, whatever you think of
niagara on the lake being sold as the same thing except on a
bench is so close to the lake and yet it’s a bench. And I want to
show you something here. I’m going to touch us in two glasses.
So this is a, as most of you probably know if you’re wearing
peaks in Washington program. So that’s the mall rache last, the
big wide one. And this is some people also call laura shay glass.
And when I did a good shard, I’ll often port in both. One of
these will maximize the aroma and the other one will maKe it
seem more tight. So often I use this retail glass, um, I forget the
exact name. It’s not called shoveling and snuck on marshay, but
this glass that’s kinda short and stumpy tends to tighten up new
world wines and make them seem a little bit more like
computer computerly.

Thomas: 01:04:08 And this takes a great older wine. Just makes it wow. Anyway,
so this saunders is very close. You can tell which one I’m doing
today. This saunders is very close to the lake and organically
grown by the saunders event. A family who, uh, warren sanders
is now 92 and he was born here to a jamaican family. And uh,
whereas for a long time and maybe still now the only jamaican
derivative family on the bench grew up in the hamilton steel
mills and bought a farm and a bet because rel from the, from
the globe wrote a great story on saunders. I don’t know if that’s
still available online, but this is one of canvas unsend pioneers
unsung because they never did a winery. So wineries, you
notice you can grow good grades, but uh, you know, wineries
get, you noticed. So this saunders has always a canid
characteristic to it. Do you get that medal? Yeah, absolutely.
This is just gorgeous. It is beautiful. Beeswax,

Speaker 5: 01:05:18 toasted almond. I’m loving it. And sam hot from bc says it’s time
to make the trip to ontario wine country. He teaches courses in
bc and vancouver. Elaine bruce, who’s a sommelier in calgary,
loving all these wine tips, I need to become an intern. Leaves
shirae gun gay wants to uh, to visit your winery. So

Thomas: 01:05:38 this is gorgeous. Wow. One of the greatest things about what
we’re saying here, it is because these guys are super geeks. I
wouldn’t do this. So this core here is called dm cork lift. I get to
watch a little thing and what is accomplished in cork, so
competent course are at once the cheapest and some of the
most expensive kind. Of course. This has been tested for years.
Some of the greatest burgundians are using this in some of
their, $100 bottles and what it is his court and blown apart. So
won’t have any tca or quirkiness and then put it back together.
And uh, what happens is there’s zero quirkiness, engrave
freshness. We just had a six year old chardonnay from niagara
and it was just going to move towards almond and that’s really
fresh dough, you know, super fresh, nice and crisp. But it’s got a
well, when people ask me, do you want, do you prefer stellman
screw cap wines or um, or cork?

Thomas: 01:06:43 I never, I it, I always say, you know what I want, I want them.
This is considered the grower bottle. Would that kind of let me
watch this year, this little camper thing here, the finger talk
because that burgundian growers are starkey and, and this
growers bottle is what I want and what I put in. It must not
harm the wine. So zen I’ve been using since 11 and my wines
are aging at the same rate as court with no quirkiness. And uh,
when you see a comment suit cork in a high end wine not
encroach content court that looks like a court board, but a fine
one like this, that is very, very small particles, that is usually an
indication of great quality in somebody who is sick to death of
quirkiNess and want to. Yeah. You have, you have rescored
ground crews at $400 blender dm right now. So that’s just a
little aside and that’s only because of the kind of questions
we’re getting. I know these guys and gals can take it.

Natalie: 01:07:51 Absolutely. Yup. 13 sanders. Let’s do that.

Thomas: 01:07:58 I don’t want to pour that for one year younger. Okay. Your kids
drink wine? No,

Speaker 5: 01:08:06 I exposed my son early to wine and I made sure it wasn’t a
sweet wine. And so he’s, he thinks it’s totally young. So it was.
And I did it deliberately.

Thomas: 01:08:19 Same with wine that six and eight years old and now they’re 18,
19 and 21 and they tolerate wine. But when the older friends,
they still want those drinks with the little umbrellas in them.
That’s okay. Isn’t that lovely? Twelve years. Well preserved, this
is 13 at a cool year. I’m obviously looking very mineral.

Natalie: 01:08:48 Absolutely beautiful. Absolutely. Okay. Let us do the last two
then because Oregon, you’ll get the record for the time here
and I know you’re going to be going to a barbecue having food
soon. So.

Thomas: 01:09:06 So this is an Oregon johnson vineyard. Again, I drove the ripper
on this property to rip the ground back in 2000 and everyone
was implanted it. And this is a fabulous piece of applaud in
Oregon and um, you know, I know the viewers. Batchelder
doesn’t have a tasting room so we can’t yet. We’ll have one
soon. You have to have five acres of land and we’re too poor for
that. But you know, by the way, me coordinate goes in.
Burgundy is considered a very noble thing. The first kid in the
family gets a land, the second kid has to buy grapes if they want
to be in the wine business and that’s the way it goes because
nobody can afford land anymore. So they’re the ones who
turned me onto it and buying grapes, wine grapes. And so
anyway, I start to buy when I worked at almost 10 years after
I started batchelder after the closure and started like johnson
vineyard, even though I helped plant this and I gotta tell you the
fact that Oregon has zero limestone does not mean it has zero

Thomas: 01:10:11 And, and why I was talking to a tasting room was because I can’t
get these wines to people direct lifted as our distributor and
they bring them in and in quebec. So, but um, one thing can do
is go to the lcd or the saq or wherever they live and goes to
their product consultant or a written natalie’s site and say, I
want a fine Oregon chardonnay. And I do mean fine.
fine. I’m always never overall never suite right when, when you
do that, even right after a night or which is the worst place to
put this because now your wines just sort of, you know, they,
they, they, they sparkle with the limestone minerality. It has
sedimentary stone minerality, which is not ingrained in reality,
but it’s almost as a salty sea 10 because the sedimentary rock
used to be under the sea and when the mountains came up.
Right. So that’s how the willamette valley was formed. Wow.

Speaker 5: 01:11:08 But they’re heavier soils in the Oregon region. Yeah. So they

Thomas: 01:11:13 get much rain, dance and lots of suns, yours, sunset, so that. So I
try to put this in a way that makes sense for everybody. Wine
is often measured. It’s acidic content in pah, msne total.
Essentially it was getting too heavy. I’ll just say that you can
have the same acidity in burgundy. Niagara in Oregon and
Oregon will seem the more fat lines. So I select the best barrels
and the most tapes looking barrels out of this. It doesn’t quite
have a pop up niagara, but it’s certainly a savory and lovely.
Would you agree with that?

Natalie: 01:11:50 Absolutely. Yes. It’s gorgeous. I mean it’s, you know, I can see
the signature with all of these wines even though they’re in the
different regions, which I know is what you’re trying to achieve.
Yes, definitely. So it’s like, well we both brought up our kids.

Thomas: 01:12:05 So along with our partners, I’m looking for my course, we broke
up, we broke up our kids and we know that when you start
bringing kids you think, and for those of you who haven’t had
kids, don’t start this. There’s still a time to start. Seriously, for
those of you who haven’t had kids, always think about the way
you were brought up and know that parents, young parents,
because your de facto young, when you start, you think, I am
not going to make this, this, this mistake with my kids, here’s
what I’m going to do. And it’s always iii stuff. The mini habit.
You realize it’s them, them, them, you’re stewarding them,
right? And it sucks and it’s not knowable or anything. It’s the
only way to do it. You can’t apply the same technique of raising
kids to, uh, to separate kids because one will resist this, that the
other one was just something else.

Thomas: 01:12:59 The other one will pretend to go along, but ultimately resist.
And so I’m going to move because the sun just changed here.
Give me a second. No worries. So what happened is that with
winemaking, yes, I do exactly the same thing in Oregon berry,
the same barrel seems tech week, same head, same hands as
you said earlier, but ultimately the kids don’t listen to me all the
time. So it’s not like, oh, I’ll capitalize everything. So everything,
you know, Oregon doesn’t need a shot.  is 13, five
now. you needed a bed. Burgundy gable, now we let them be
and we try to get them all through high school and the university
say go to University of. That’s okay. If they want to be an artist,

Natalie: 01:13:46 it’s okay. Right. Mario de rosa says congratulations. It’s triplets.
Isn’t that great?

Thomas: 01:13:55 Yeah, I’m glad you mentioned his name because we’ve known
each other for a long time and he’s a, you know, Ontario,
one leverage falls everybody and knows and writes on wine and
knows, knows a lot of people and  you know, Mario is of the
a generation like hopefully many listening to us where they grow
up in a time where you say, do you know these kids today?
Right. And I mean these  I’m not a, I’d love to say I’m
a kid. So when you say to people who are in a nine to five,
which we are here, oh, five north of Toronto. And you say to
them, hey, do you have you heard of Romany Conti? They go,
nope. Have you heard of norman hurting yet? And that is the
future that people grow up here actually believing that good
things come from here.

Thomas: 01:14:47 Not just tomatoes but wine, but you know, and man I love olive
oil, but Michael Olsen, I saw him the other day and then you go
to Ontario is best canola oil, cold pressed canola. It has a total
tear wherever its own. And it makes great with food. And
I’m like wow like everything’s happening here. It’s happening
fast and people are starting to believe that you don’t have to go
to the states getting on and come back here. That actually the
new generation is actually going to believe if their parents say
Ontario wine shift, they’re going to go blab, blab, blab. But In
some cases, we have so many new Canadians, which is a part of
the great strength of our country. They will actually believe, I
am deciding that Darren hardy is good. I just use him because
he’s a buddy and he’s a pioneer out in Prince Edward county is
an easy one to point to. you know, I just believe
that these kids, if they find something, I can mention 25 other
names. If they find something that’s local and good, they
shouldn’t only eat the hundred-mile diet, they should drink.

Natalie: 01:15:59 Love all those points there no more. Shania Twain, Celine Dion
validation from the US. And I liked the sort of almost backlash
we will decide for ourselves. Ontario’s good. Alright, the Queylus.

Thomas: 01:16:11 This is the toughest wine tasting. Great wine. So for those of
you who know your burgundy’s, you’ll understand exactly what
I’m saying. They make fabulous wines in
the mecca, nay, but the ground crews there are preferred pre say
in st paul and so if you’re sitting in burgundy and you would
dare to pour a free say, which is a great wine because of 30 or 40
bucks a bottle after a $100 M. So people will say, what are
you, what are you smoking? Why are you doing that? Well, I’m
doing that right now because this case has come from the
Lincoln lake shore, so it’s on sandy soils near the lake.

Thomas: 01:17:14 It’s not on the bench, but it hasn’t tepidity that’s all its own. I
think the first person, first people do Lincoln lake shore,
probably creek site and then Francois Morrissette, good buddy
of mine has been here since 2009 has been doing a lot of Lincoln
lakeshore up the bench is the finest. Maybe just like the
premier cruiser burgundy, but Lincoln lakeshore has a thing all
its own and the other one like that is creatures are in Jordan.
Lincoln lake shores are in beams and these are on the flat. But
guess what? Nothing in magazines because everything
eventually has to go to the lake. Right. So this has a more plush
field to it always. So Natalie would be the first, but I put it after
our premiere cruise because I wanted to show you that
different is still good, you know, totally different but so lovely.
And that’s the first time because I thought we should do
something edgy on earth day. That’s the first time I do. Can we
say after the grapes and bone, put another way? Lincoln lake
shore after Niagara badge stands up. It’s just different.

Natalie: 01:18:31 I love the parallels your drawing here. It’s great. It does stand
up. It does not suffer by comparison. It stands as its own

Thomas: 01:18:41 I would love to know if anybody else’s asking questions because
that’s my favorite part of the show.

Natalie: 01:18:46 Okay. And we are like at the, what is it? The hour and 20
minutes. Oh my goodness. We’ve never gone this long tribute to
you, but we will wrap up. Roger’s just saying
he’s drinking the 2012 Bachelder burgundy chardonnay tonight.
Right. So, and there have been more questions, but I think what
we’ll do, Thomas, in respect for your time. we’ll wrap this up. Is
there anything you want to mention before we do that? Is there
anything we’ve left out because folks, you can keep on posting
questions below all through the week. You know, watch the
replay, post the questions, please take a moment to share this
video so that others find out about it. I appreciate the 28 of you
who have already shared this and I will be announcing a winner
from last week at the end of this, this session. So Thomas,
anything else you’d like to.

Thomas: 01:19:40 So I would say I went out on her birthday, I would say, first of
all, I’ve been trying to remember this the whole time where the
send a couple of bottles of Bachelder and a couple of bottles of
queylus for next week’s prize

Natalie: 01:19:53 Absolutely. Well, so more than one winner folks. Yes, I’ve been
kind of keeping it generic you say. Okay, I’ll make sure. Sure,

Thomas: 01:20:04 Good stuff. And, I would say the other thing is like, I really, really
want to say that an organic wine always tastes better, but there’s
such, this crosshatched these days of natural wines, organic
wines. It used to be when I looked at the organic wine section
at the lcbo and the saq and in the states, I would go, I love the

Thomas: 01:20:30 intense, but I’m going to go get some classic. That was 20 years
ago. Now I go to the organic wine section. I know it’s going to be
good. I can’t assure you that it will be better. Am I to encourage
people is the fact that I have chosen and then we’ll continue to
chose to choose to go down the organic food I want to make
and I want to drink classic wines that represent theirs. That’s
what I like. And if it can be organic so much the better. and I
think we should all try to keep our wine hats on, our wine,
loving hats on. And not only the organic, we shouldn’t drink
organic wine and we shouldn’t treat bad conventional wine. We
should push conventional people towards organics and try to
continue them, so I think you can go up there and buy organic
wines and encourage those producers for sure, do it, do it, but
also buy wines that encouraged your love of wine and I mean
like you and Natalie, it’s like a disease.

Thomas: 01:21:27 Where you start loving wine and you can’t stop and I’m the
same way and you just have to quantify and try to figure wine is
unquantifiable. Don’t only keep it to organic wines, but really do
keep it a great terroir. , whether
they’re organic or not, and ask those hard questions. When you
visit producers in France, in Niagara, did you do at least one
block? Organic help the movement along, right? But it’s a
complex world. Everything exists at the same time, right?
There’s hip-hop now, but reggae music still exists. We have to
keep it all going because we liked this big, complex world and I
defend my right to drink Barolo and burgundy even though I
love 100-mile diet right? There you go.

Natalie: 01:22:1 I will drink to that. Thomas, I drink to you as well, so
I’ll raise a glass to you. of your wine. I appreciate your time,
your energy, your passion here tonight, but also what you do.
Oh, all of the other days of the year. So thank you for spending
your evening with us, Thomas, and I wish you the best.

Thomas: 01:22:34 Thanks for getting all the word out there. Okay,

Natalie: 01:22:36 take care. Bye. Bye.













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