Is It the Wine or Is It You? Alan Ramey on What Really Makes Wine Taste Good

Introduction

Is a fully organic future in agriculture possible or even affordable, or are there limits to how far we can go? Why has biodynamics thrived in wine when many of its founder’s ideas were rejected in medicine and education? How much of what you enjoy in wine comes from what’s in the glass versus your mental perception of what you’re drinking?

In this episode of the Unreserved Wine Talk podcast, I’m chatting with Alan Ramey, author of Pressing Matters: The Debates, Controversies and Mysteries that have Shaped the World of Wine.

You can find the wines we discussed here.

 

Giveaway

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Highlights

  • What real-world vineyard challenges force growers to abandon organic practices despite their intentions?
  • Can organic treatments like copper create unintended long-term harm?
  • Why is it difficult to apply a single organic farming standard across vastly different climates and growing conditions?
  • What did the Sri Lanka fertilizer ban reveal about the risks of transitioning to organic agriculture too quickly?
  • Why has organic wine struggled to gain traction with consumers compared to organic food?
  • How do certification labels function as signals of trust for consumers?
  • How does the philosophical origin of biodynamics differ from more modern approaches to farming?
  • Why do biodynamic practices persist in wine despite limited scientific evidence supporting measurable differences in outcomes?
  • How are climate change pressures forcing winemakers to rethink some traditional practices?
  • Why does climate change create greater vintage variability?
  • How much does price shape our perception of wine quality?

 

Key Takeaways

  • Is a fully organic future in agriculture possible or even affordable, or are there limits to how far we can go?
    • N: You cite Sri Lanka as an example, where a government ban on synthetic fertilizers caused food prices to spike, protests and a policy reversal. Organic advocates say the transition was just too abrupt. What do you think that tells us about the pace at which organic viticulture can realistically scale?
    • A: Well, I think the first and most obvious one is that you can’t do it overnight. I think the question that I get into a little bit is that there are other governments, the EU and then California, where I am, it has policy statements about goals for percentages of farming that will turn organic over the upcoming years and the question is how realistic a goal will that be. And I found scholars on both sides of the issue here. Obviously, as an average as a whole, it’s less intensive farming. There’s less potential danger because there’s things that are as harshly toxic or aren’t used as much. And so you might diminish some risks. Those are the kind of arguments that those advocates would say. On the other side, there was a gentleman I interviewed who said, if the whole world went organic, there just isn’t enough manure to be able to sustain that. And so the question is, if it’s not a long-term solution, what are we doing here in trying to make that the goal?
  • Why has biodynamics thrived in wine when many of its founder’s ideas were rejected in medicine and education?
    • I think depending on who you talk to in biodynamics, you’ll find people that still use that sort of logical system to come to their conclusions. And then you’ll find others who were inspired by some of the tools that were advocated for by Steiner, but justify them using more of a modern scientific understanding. And so I think it’s just healthy to be aware of where things come from. It’s sort of an odd thing where in medicine, some of Steiner’s practices have not gone forward… largely debunked by most modern medical practices. And there’s a few schools like Waldorf but most educational systems around the world have rejected the Steiner approach. With wine, it’s kind of an interesting thing because it seems more popular than ever. Why is it that wine is the one area where biodynamic has really thrived? The advocates of biodynamic would say this is a differentiable farming system and it works. I want that voice to show through. One of the people I interviewed for my book had said, well, I think if you’re trying to differentiate your product and say you’re special, having a little bit of a spiritual differentiation helps you stand out a little bit.
  • How much of what you enjoy in wine comes from what’s in the glass versus your mental perception of what you’re drinking?
    • Why am I happy? Is it the thing in my glass, or is it my head? We’d like to think it’s in our taste. The reality is that it’s our head. The question is, how much should you choose to take the pill that brings you to that imaginary world and enjoy that or how much should you push it away and taste wine purely in a technical sense. And I think depending on how each individual wants to live life, they might choose different things. But I think what’s true for most people is that even if they choose to go to the place and let the experience overwhelm them and have an emotional experience that might not be related to technical tasting, most people just don’t want to be tricked. They don’t want to have the same wine and one being charged twice as much.

 

About Alan Ramey

Alan Ramey comes from a vintner family in the Sonoma/Napa area north of San Francisco, California. He is currently co-president of the family winery, Ramey Wine Cellars. He learned wine making as an apprentice to his father, one of the most famous winemakers in the US, and has also studied wine making and apprenticed in Chile and France, including harvests at Veramonte in Casablanca and Méo-Camuzet in Burgundy. While studying for his MBA at Cambridge University he was selected to join the blind wine tasting team, competing around Europe. He is a board member for the California Wine Institute and is active in the wine community. Alan was on his high school and college debate teams and during his study abroad year at Oxford he won the ‘best new debater of the year’ competition.

 

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Transcript

Natalie MacLean 00:00:00 Is a fully organic future in agricultural possible or even affordable? Or are there limits as to how far we can go? Why have bio dynamics thrived in the wine industry when many of its founders ideas have been rejected in medicine and education? And how much of what you actually enjoy in Glass of Wine comes from what’s in that glass, versus your mental perception of what you’re drinking? In today’s episode, you’ll hear the stories and tips that answer those questions in part two of our chat with Alan Ramey, author of Pressing Matters The Debates, controversies, and Mysteries That Have Shaped the World of Wine. You don’t need to have listened to part one from last week first, but if you missed it, go back and take a listen after you finish this one. By the end of her conversation, you’ll also discover the real world vineyard challenges that force growers to abandon organic practices despite their good intentions. How organic treatments like copper spray can create unintended long term harm. Why it’s difficult to apply a single organic farming standard across vastly different climates and growing conditions around the world.

Natalie MacLean 00:01:19 Why organic wine has struggled to gain traction with consumers compared to organic food. How certification labels function as signals of trust for consumers. How the philosophical origin of biodynamic differs from more modern approaches to farming, and how climate change pressures are forcing winemakers to rethink some traditional practices.

Natalie MacLean 00:01:49 Do you have a thirst to learn about wine? Do you love stories about wonderfully obsessive people, hauntingly beautiful places, and amusingly awkward social situations. Well, that’s the blend here on the Unreserved Wine Talk podcast. I’m your host, Natalie MacLean, and each week I share with you unfiltered conversations with celebrities in the wine world, as well as confessions from my own tipsy journey as I write my third book on this subject. I’m so glad you’re here. Now pass me that bottle, please, and let’s get started.

Natalie MacLean 00:02:31 Welcome to episode 384. So what’s new in the drinks world.

Natalie MacLean 00:02:37 This week.

Natalie MacLean 00:02:37 You ask? Well, a village in.

Natalie MacLean 00:02:39 Abruzzo.

Natalie MacLean 00:02:40 A region of Italy, has become a pilgrimage site for wine lovers after a local vineyard installed a wine fountain that flows 24 hours a day free of charge.

Natalie MacLean 00:02:52 While intended for hikers on the Camino de San Tommaso Trail. The fountain has recently gained fame for the local guardian cat named Bacchus, of course, who reportedly sleeps on top of the fountain and hisses at unworthy drinkers. Now a man in Belgium recently broke the world record for the largest collection of beer coasters, amassing more than 150,000 of them. His Holy Grail coaster was recently acquired a hand-painted leather coaster from the 1800s that allegedly belonged to a Trappist monk. He currently stores them in a climate controlled basement that he refers to as the paper cellar. A winery in Bordeaux, France, has introduced horse power tours, where guests are pulled through the vines by heavy draught horses. The twist the horses are trained to stop at specific scent stations, where guests can smell the primary aromatics of wine, like blackberry before they even tasted drop. It’s the ultimate slow travel experience for the horse and the drinker. In Australia, a group of scientists has developed a way to turn leftover grape mark. That’s Mark, which is the skins and seeds left over after pressing into high fashion leather handbags.

Natalie MacLean 00:04:17 Several wineries in the Barossa Valley are now selling purses that match the specific year of the wine you’re drinking, giving new meaning to vintage fashion. An artist in California has gained a massive following for creating spill portraits. She intentionally knocks over glasses of red wine onto canvases, and then uses a fine brush to turn the stains into intricate landscapes. She claims that Cabernet Sauvignon makes for better mountain ranges, while Pinot noir is ideal for sunset skies. In Japan, a spa has opened where guests can soak in a giant hot tub filled with Beaujolais Nouveau. The owners claim that the antioxidants in the wine are excellent for the skin. While guests are discouraged from drinking the bathwater issue, the spa does offer a sidecar of fresh wine to sip while you soak in the vintage for your food, wine and spirits. Calendar this week tomorrow, April 9th, is National Gin and Tonic Day with a great origin story. British officers of the East India Company in colonial India were required to take quinine to prevent malaria because quinine is intensely bitter.

Natalie MacLean 00:05:33 They mixed it with sugar, lime and gin to make it bearable. What started as compulsory medicine became the most accidentally elegant cocktail in history to celebrate. Set up a Kraft Chianti bar at home and try three different gins side by side. The same tonic to taste how wildly different the botanicals perform. April 11th brings National Cheese Fondue Day inviting the history of this dish, which was that fondue was not a beloved Swiss tradition so much as an extremely successful marketing campaign. The Swiss Cheese Union promoted it in the 1930s to increase cheese and wine consumption during slow seasons, rebranding a regional peasant dish as a national celebrated dish and selling it to the world. It worked magnificently to honor the effort. Why not make a drunken cauldron using a crisp Riesling or Chablis as the base for your cheese melt? For a playful upgrade? Try the boozy dip by lightly spritzing cubes of toasted focaccia bread with botanical gin before dipping, or host a vineyard skewer night, where every dip able item is matched to a specific wine. Green apple with Chenin blanc.

Natalie MacLean 00:06:54 Spicy chorizo with Syrah. Sourdough with Riesling. April 11th is also National Pet Day, which has nothing to do with drinks and everything to do with your patio. Pour a low alcohol spritz. Let your dog supervise the proceedings from a lawn chair and create a proper patio drink using natural wine, a glass of pet net, of course, or petulant natural and raise a toast to the true head of your household. April 12th is National Grilled Cheese Sandwich Day, and if you’ve never paired a perfectly caramelized grilled cheese with a chilled, light bodied red wine, do it now. A Gamay Noir or a chilled Pinot is an excellent combination. Or try lightly sparkling wine as the wine’s gentle fizz against the richness of that butter. Fried bread is one of those things that sounds a little strange until you try it. April 13th is National Peach Cobbler Day, an excellent occasion to explore peach forward cocktails, a sparkling wine with a stone fruit character or an unashamedly retro dessert wine float over vanilla ice cream. A Bellini made with peach puree and sparkling wine is obvious, but a cheeky alternative is a scoop of peach ice cream in a chilled Moscato d’Asti and calling it research.

Natalie MacLean 00:08:15 April 14th is National Pecan Day or pecan? Whatever you say. These nuts are the only commercially significant nut tree native to North America. George Washington was known to carry them in his pockets for a personal snack. Pay proper homage with a nutty, old fashioned cocktail made from pecan infused whiskey and black walnut bitters. Or shake up a pecan pie martini using rum, Chata vodka and a splash of praline liqueur with a rim of crushed toasted pecans. If you prefer wine, pair a handful of smoked pecans with a glass of tawny port. The caramel notes in the wine act like a liquid pastry crust around the nut. And for your weird but wonderful scientific fact of the week, the reason gin and absinthe turn cloudy when you add water or ice is a chemical quirk known as the ouzo effect. Many botanical spirits contain essential oils like an apple that are soluble in high proof alcohol, but not in water. When the alcohol concentration drops, these oils spontaneously form tiny droplets that scatter light, creating a milky, translucent emulsion without the need for stirring or shaking.

Natalie MacLean 00:09:37 Speaking of shaking, your shaken martini gets colder than a stirred one. And that’s not just about movement. It’s also about surface area. Shaking breaks the ice into smaller fragments, dramatically increasing the surface area of the ice in contact with the liquid. This leads to a rapid phase transition where the ice melts faster, absorbing more heat from the gin or vodka and chilling the drink well below 0°C or 32°F in a matter of seconds. Boom. All right, back to today’s episode. Two of you are going to win a copy of Alan Raimi’s new book, Pressing Matters The debates, controversies, and mysteries that have Shaped the World of wine. All you have to do is email me at Natalie at Natalie MacLean dot com and let me know that you’d like to win. I’ll choose two people randomly from those who contact me. If you’re reading the paperback or e-book or listening to the audiobook of my memoir, Wine Witch on Fire Rising from the Ashes of Divorce, defamation, and Drinking Too Much, a national bestseller and one of Amazon’s best books of the year.

Natalie MacLean 00:10:47 I’d love to hear from you at Natalie at Natalie MacLean dot com. I’ll put a link to all retailers worldwide at Natalie MacLean. Com. 384. Okay, on with the show. One anonymous grape grower in your book says simply effing mealybugs are terrible as their explanation for why they abandon organic practice. Can you describe a specific farming crisis, where the idealism of organics ran directly into the reality of trying to save the crop?

Alan Ramey 00:11:20 There’s a few pests or weeds that are just so invasive that it becomes incredibly difficult to combat them with the organic arsenal. Sulfur and copper can solve a lot of things, but I think what some have realized is that that just means you spray and you spray and you spray and you spray and you spray. But at the end of the day, it’s just not powerful enough to stop that. And so the critic would say, you’re using so many more tractor passes, you’re using a lot more product and shipping it out. So there’s the cost there. There’s all the time wasted too, and the practicalities of not getting it done.

Alan Ramey 00:11:59 So just having something that’s a little more powerful to solve in this case mealybug switcher are quite frustrating. Or I think on the weeds side, flu Villain is one that is has been really troublesome here in California for many. I was chatting with a researcher from Cornell who talked about how copper is great, but if you keep building it up in the soil, that actually might be bad for earthworms. It’s one of those things that I think most organic farmers would celebrate. I mean, I think that’s the beauty of the organic side is to say, let’s focus on our soil quality. Look at what we’re having. And yet, I think if you’re putting a certain situation where you’re just struggling, you might actually be harming the thing that you’re trying to help. And so I think what this researcher was telling me is saying, having a few different options in those extreme situations to be able to get the job done quickly and not have one compound that could build up in the soil, that might be a more intelligent response.

Alan Ramey 00:12:52 So again, it’s it’s tricky because we want to have a simple, good understanding of how to have a, a healthy, respectful wine that doesn’t hurt nature and doesn’t get leached into the ground or the groundwater. And I think organics is the beauty of it, is it has that clarity. I think the challenge is, is that you’re setting one farming system that has gone, calculates so many different practical agricultural problems or regions, you know, like, again, New York, where Cornell is closer to, I mean, has so much more mildew pressure and different types of mildew that it’s much more difficult out there and your costs are so much higher. And so I think it’s it’s that challenge of you want one standard, and yet one standard is very difficult to have for everyone.

Natalie MacLean 00:13:33 That’s true. And now you cite Sri Lanka as an example, where a government ban on synthetic fertilizers caused food prices to spike, protests and a policy reversal. Organic advocates say the transition was just too abrupt. What do you think that tells us about the pace at which organic viticulture can realistically scale?

Alan Ramey 00:13:52 Well, I think you have.

Alan Ramey 00:13:53 The first and most obvious one is that you can’t do it overnight. I think that’s the lesson right there. I think the question that I get into a little bit is that there are other governments, you know, the EU and then California, where I am, it has policy statements about goals for percentages of farming that will turn organic over the upcoming years. And the question is how realistic a goal will that be? And I found scholars on both sides of the issue here. I think people who are for it. I mean, obviously, I think there’s arguments to say as an average as a whole, it’s less intensive farming, there’s less potential danger because there’s things that are as harshly toxic, aren’t used as much. And so you might diminish some risks. I think those are the kind of arguments that those advocates would say. On the other side, there was a gentleman I interviewed who said, if the whole world went organic, there just isn’t enough manure to be able to sustain that. And so the question is, if it’s not a long term solution, what are we doing here in trying to make that the goal.

Alan Ramey 00:14:49 And so I think that and again there’s responses to that argument. I don’t want to make it end there. That’s it’s very complicated and hard to get at one point. But I just I reference those as sort of the two top arguments. And then the conversation continues back and forth, back and forth. Quite a while.

Natalie MacLean 00:15:06 Sure. Well, and then a 2017 Harvard Business School paper you note called Organic Wine A Case Study in Failed category creation. It found that organic wine was more popular by volume in Sweden than in all of the United States combined. Why has the organic wine category struggled to connect with consumers the way organic food has certainly connected with them?

Alan Ramey 00:15:30 I need to double check that, because I know organic food is quite out there in a lot of grocery stores, but it’s still a small minority of most of groceries. And at least in the US. I can’t speak to outside. The one thing I’d say is I think organic wine has taken off a little more since that was written, but but again, the numbers are still quite low.

Alan Ramey 00:15:47 It’s around 5% or much or lower than that. Yeah. Why hasn’t it connected? One of the classic issues is that some people make the claim that it is qualitatively better wine when you farm organically, and I think others would say that’s not the case and that it’s hard to tell the difference. I mean, and the fact that most blind tasting tournaments don’t have a is it organic check mark is sort of the perhaps validation for the one side saying it’s quite tricky to taste some element. I think a lot of people talk about, oh, there’s an energy or vibrancy in this wine. And I think that’s the farming. But I think a lot of that is sort of anecdotal and and hard to technically define, which is why it’s most of the blind tasting tournaments have steered clear of that. So I think for a lot of consumers, if they can’t taste the difference, if they don’t really know it, I think most drinkers just want to have something to drink. And so I think that’s the challenge for anyone who cares about creating any standard that allows for more environmental stewardship.

Alan Ramey 00:16:41 Is that we just live in a world where there’s only so many people that care, whatever farming system it is. And so, yeah, I think it’s really tough. And I think the movement’s struggling with that. As I said right now, there’s obviously a lot of people who joined organics over the last 20 years and has grown. But then as we were just talking about because of practical farming issues, a lot of people very quietly drop off the organic standard and don’t make big speeches about it, and therefore it’s losing in some element. So we’ll see. I really maybe it will grow much more, but it’s hard to make predictions about the future. So I think I’ll probably stop there.

Natalie MacLean 00:17:12 Yeah, sure. Now, Ralph Steiner, kind of the godfather of biodynamic, claim to have communed with otherworldly beings, seen deceased relatives appear and speak to him and identified two geniuses. He also said human clairvoyance had been lost due to inter-tribal mingling of bloodlines. You quote these things not to mock biodynamic, but to lay out the intellectual genealogy of it.

Natalie MacLean 00:17:39 How do you think a wine buyer at a top restaurant should hold that history in their mind? When a sommelier recommends a biodynamic bottle? How do you balance all of that in your mind?

Alan Ramey 00:17:51 The history biodynamic has evolved a lot since that time, and I think depending on who you talk to in biodynamic, you’ll find people that still use that sort of logical system to come to their conclusions. And then you’ll find others who were inspired by some of the tools that were advocated for by Steiner, but justify them using more of a modern scientific understanding. And so I think it’s just healthy to be aware of where things come from. If you study the, again, that sort of logical genealogy, what you realize is that it’s not like Steiner was this scientist who was saying, let’s use this scientific process and that will lead us to it. I think he sometimes said things like that, but I think realistically, so much of his other writings show a man who had a very spiritual side that I think has not really stood the test of time for most people.

Alan Ramey 00:18:46 I don’t want to say for everyone, but I think it’s not like most people follow the religion or spiritual guidance, I should say, of Steiner. And so it’s it’s sort of an odd thing where in medicine some of Steiner’s practices have not gone forward. That’s been largely debunked by most modern medical practices. And there’s a few schools like Waldorf. I actually went to a Waldorf school in grade school that. So there’s a few. But most educational systems around the world have rejected the Steiner approach. And with but with wine, it’s kind of an interesting thing because it seems more popular than ever. I think the question becomes, why is it that wine is the one area where biodynamic has really thrived? And I think there’s a lot of different answers to that. I think certainly the advocates of biodynamic would say this is a differentiable farming system and it works. I want it that voice to to show through. I think there’s some one of the people I interviewed for my book had said, well, I think if you’re trying to differentiate your product and say you’re special, having a little bit of a spiritual differentiation helps you stand out a little bit.

Alan Ramey 00:19:43 And so I think there’s some people that have done it because they realized they need to be different in some way than just being organic. And I think that’s where one of the scholars was I was talking to, was mentioning it. And she was certainly skeptical of the, the of the biodynamic side. It’s tricky, but I think at the end of the day, it’s just awareness. And I think awareness about history is always a good thing.

Natalie MacLean 00:20:03 Yes. The subtitle of your book should be it’s tricky.

Alan Ramey 00:20:06 Very true. Yeah. It’s complicated. It’s tricky. Yeah.

Natalie MacLean 00:20:09 That’s right. Your marketing group would not approve. Now, Nicolas Joly at Coulee de Saron explains Yarrow in a stag’s bladder by way of the deer’s emotional life, the kidney process, venous forces and cosmic reception. So he’s a believer in using that. And Rodrigo Soto of Quintessence Winery explains the same preparation as inoculating compost to make soil nutrients more available. Both men are using the word biodynamic. Are they making the same product?

Alan Ramey 00:20:43 In one sense, they’re not making the same product because it’s a different place in different grapes in another sense.

Alan Ramey 00:20:48 I think what you mean by that is, does the intentionality behind what you’re doing in the farming make a difference? And I think that we can probably answer no. Just because you you think something differently doesn’t mean chemistry changes. Right. So assuming there is something or if there isn’t, either way, I think it’s a fairly safe claim to say that in theory it should be having a similar effect. That would be the sort of pro side of biodynamic saying it’s whatever it is, it’s bringing this energy to the wines. And that’s the argument. I think the critics of it would say a lot of those preparations are are not actually in a level that is strong enough to have any actual effect on farming. And so they would say that everyone is kidding themselves and that really a lot of the actual effects might be coming from something like a cover crop that has been a little more studied and does seem to have some sort of effect. And so I think that would be the critique, I would say.

Natalie MacLean 00:21:41 Yeah.

Natalie MacLean 00:21:42 And I’ve heard the argument that whether it’s organics or biodynamic or even if you don’t believe in the chemical effect or non chemical effect, the winemaker is paying closer attention to the vines. So that’s a good thing that that may be it.

Alan Ramey 00:21:55 That’s the practical argument for, for those people who do not accept the idea that these applications are having an actual effect, I think a lot of people say, but I seem to keep liking a lot of biodynamic wines. I think the argument is it forces you to pay attention. I know Rodrigo, who’s an absolute gentleman and a scholar, I think is is very much likes the idea of of making himself more connected. And I think if that is the thing that makes him more connected to his vineyard and makes him excited to walk it and observe more, I think there is a logical progression that I think would show that. The question also then becomes, are there other things in different farming systems that excite other people to walk their vineyard more regularly and check in, and I think the answer is probably yes.

Alan Ramey 00:22:37 I think not everyone who doesn’t have biodynamic is just sort of sitting in an office looking down and never walking their vineyards. So I think it’s I think that’s why a lot of the studies that have tried to measure the difference in biodynamic wines and taste test of blind have been inconclusive. Some of the trials that are private sector, where its winery is saying, I’ve done this experiment, they can justify it. But again, usually the academics who’ve done it have struggled to replicate real world taste differences when they’ve done field trials. But again, there’s not a lot of trials out there. So in theory, there could be more research. But the few academic trials that have been done by independent sources seem to show that if there’s anything, there might be a tiny difference. But it’s possible that that’s just scientific noise is what some of the academics I talked to told me. And so I think that should be taken into consideration when you’re making a decision on that front.

Natalie MacLean 00:23:26 Sure. So on climate and in wine.

Natalie MacLean 00:23:29 You alluded to this. Jean-Claude Badou.

Alan Ramey 00:23:32 Jean-Claude.

Natalie MacLean 00:23:33 There you go. Who made Chateau Petrus for decades, says he first noticed the effects of climate change in 1990. When alcohol levels started climbing. Acidity was dropping, tannins were softening. You opened the climate chapter with him standing at the gates of his winery, looking at an 11th century church tower. What specific change has he made to his winemaking in response and and why? Why would that matter?

Alan Ramey 00:23:56 No, it’s.

Alan Ramey 00:23:57 A good question. And yeah, Jean-Claude is important for me to make that pilgrimage because my dad trained Jean-Claude Bérubé, actually in 1989. You know, my dad always spoke amazingly about Jean-Claude as a mentor and an absolute gentleman of wine. And so I was quite curious to, to finally, as a, as a man, go back and learn a little bit. And he was absolutely, as my dad said, an absolute gentleman and scholar. And so it was a pleasure to talk to him. And then my question was, what was one thing you you didn’t get a chance to meet my dad in 89 that you would teach me? And he’d said, well, interestingly, should ask because, you know, in 1990, right after my dad left, that’s when he started to see some of those first effects.

Alan Ramey 00:24:35 And so what he told me is there was a paper that he’d read where when there’s a little more alcoholic expression in wine that extracts some of the compounds in oak a little bit more. And so he realized he needed to be a little more restrained with his oak practices because of that academic research. And so he dialed back the new oak. And actually, when I was touring the winery there, he brought in some concrete. He kept on saying fascia or fascia or fresh air, all this freshness. And so I think there is very much an interest in moderating in that way.

Natalie MacLean 00:25:06 And because concrete is inert, right. It doesn’t impart anything to the wine or.

Alan Ramey 00:25:11 Except it should not. Yeah. I think there’s questions about oxidation in it. So if you have an environment that allows less oxygen in that changes some of the chemistry and you can you could potentially end up with a little reduction in some circumstances. We have some concrete. And so that’s when I will have the same wine and different vessels.

Alan Ramey 00:25:28 And as I taste through in some instances, I’ll notice that I think it can be managed. It depends on how much oxygen gets in. And I think that’s something you can change in in the winery. So I don’t want to make it sound like it’s predestination, but I think that’s on. Yeah, it’s mostly a question of oxygen. But you’re absolutely right. It’s not like you’re there’s vanilla is in the concrete that you’re extracting and changing. And I think that’s part of the appeal of them.

Natalie MacLean 00:25:50 Yeah. Okay. Cool. Kees Van Looy, all the names we’ve chosen here. Did you do this deliberately anyway? Okay. That person, 2024 literature review projects that traditional European wine growing regions could shrink anywhere between 20% and 70% by the end of this century, he says. You can change some practices in trying to push back a little bit, but you will never go back all the way. And he’s referring to climate change. When you read that as someone who makes wine in California, what goes through your mind in terms of the implications of that both in Europe and in California.

Alan Ramey 00:26:27 The question is, he cites that data of that percentage of regions that are shifting, and the question is, well, which ones are staying. And so I think the first thing to answer your question on the mind of any vintner, wherever they are in the world, is his gosh, what what does my region look like? And how much is this going to get hit by climate? We make wine in Sonoma and Napa, and I think so there’s a lot of different climate stations around. And and again, there’s that’s part of the pleasure of making wine in this area is there’s so many different microclimates that are quite different. And so it’s, it’s fun to draw on that and have different expressions of things. But it also means it’s a little complicated because in some cases it might warm up faster, some slower. I talked to a researcher who talked about how in France there’s some places that have stayed much cooler, like Brittany, and some areas like Languedoc that have have warmed up a little bit more.

Alan Ramey 00:27:13 So. So I think the question over here for us in this case would be how are we going to change? And I think it’s tricky because what California has is this big Central Valley that gets, if you’ve ever driven through it, to get to Yosemite or anywhere like that. It is just a flat, like a lot of lettuce fields, tomato fields, and it’s hot. You know, I think that’s why there’s fewer quality grape regions is that it’s really harder to justify that as a quality place. But interestingly, what happens is that as that heat rises, that acts as a vacuum that sucks in cool air from the ocean. So in theory, if you think about it, the hotter that gets, you might be drawing in more breezes to come through. Now that’s the theory, and I know there’s some people who might try to use that to claim therefore Sonoma, a place like that could actually get colder. But then I want to stop there being cautious because we need to look at the data first before you make a conclusion like that.

Alan Ramey 00:28:05 There’s not a lot of 100 year weather stations around here. San Francisco Airport has one, but the problem there is that there’s so much city effects and concrete that’s around it that some scholars have questioned whether that’s a good weather station to use for long term, because as the environment around it changes. It might not be a good long term station so that I think there’s caution there. The one I’ve seen locally has on I we work with a, some folks, a gentleman named Scott Meyer who was sharing with me some data, some 20 year data, and on some Sonoma weather stations. And it seems like things that are both in some cases heating up more so and in some cases getting colder. And so the extremes are going more. So the average is staying fairly similar, but springs might be heating up a little more. But he said a lot of that is just a few really hot years that take the average and build it up, as opposed to most years the average doesn’t get that high. I think that seems to be indicative of a lot of the world, is that the growing degree day average is interesting to look at, but you’re just seeing much more variation.

Alan Ramey 00:29:08 So if anything will have to pay even more attention to vintages. We’re looking at some data of comparing our vineyard site in the upper reach of Russian River to Burgundy. And I think for the last five years, the average growing degree days have been warmer in for our vineyard, but in 2024 we were actually cooler growing degree days than anywhere in Burgundy. It’s interesting because if you talk to some climate scientists, they will just say, oh, you know, this is a region that temps California’s warmer. You know, that’s been cool climate Burgundy. But it seems like with climate change, you have to pay a lot more attention to this data and realize that, gosh, the cool climate might not be where you most expected. And so I think, yeah, we’re paying a lot of attention to that. And I think in my lifetime we’re trying to do viticultural designs that can resist those extreme years. We’re keeping our minds open about where those cool pockets might be and and seeking them out. So yeah, it’s it’s an interesting challenge for I think anyone in there, whatever microclimate it is.

Alan Ramey 00:30:05 But it’s hard to use total averages across the world to therefore determine the fate of every unique place. It’s a little trickier than that. Again, for your book title might have been a good one.

Natalie MacLean 00:30:16 Yeah, that’s a tagline. No, that’s fine, I’ve heard global weirding instead of global warming, like it’s just extremes now rather than averages. But I do want to get on to some of the fascinating price stuff that you’ve. So let me group a couple of things together because some interesting studies. Hildegarde Hayman has run her price game for 22 years at UC Davis University, asking students to rank five California wines by price and in 22 years, known as has ever gotten the order right. So she’s never given away the prize bottle of a Chateau Lafite. But then you also note that Antonio Rangel at Caltech University put graduate students in brain scanners and gave them the same wine while telling them it was priced at $5, ten, 35, 45, or 90, and the part of the brain that encodes for pleasantness of an experience lit up at more of the higher prices.

Natalie MacLean 00:31:08 And he says, it’s not hard to believe that this is not affecting their actual experience somehow. So what’s your whole take on price and wine? Are we really enjoying a wine more because we think it’s expensive? Does that matter? Is it just marketing? I mean, what’s your take?

Alan Ramey 00:31:26 That’s precisely why I was interested in it. Because I think, again, at the winery, we do a lot of blind tastings. And what I’ve found is that, you know, it’s like we put our wine in. And then there was the $500 Napa Cabernet in our our Cabernet price. Not cheap, but I think it’s still much more affordable. We would beat it in a blind tasting. And I think there was always this.

Natalie MacLean 00:31:47 How much was your bottle? I’m just curious.

Alan Ramey 00:31:50 We range from like 65 to 225. So we have kind of a some more affordable, some some less so. Anyway, so so, we found that that sort of thing would happen, and, and we’re certainly not alone.

Alan Ramey 00:32:02 There’s a lot of this happening in blind tasting where the more affordable wine can can win in certain in circles. And it was common enough that I think it I wanted to interview some of these people or seek out their research and read their papers to understand more. On the one hand, I think what Hildegard’s. You know, you can’t clearly call it a study because it’s a little more anecdotal. But what that example would show is that in my backyard, there’s just been a lot of people who are sort of like, it’s the tech guru or the business guy, and he wants to have the most expensive wine. And it’s not really about money because they already have money, but they just want to have their name in the bottle and have it be expensive. And I think when you’re in a climate like that, oftentimes price is no longer indication of quality. It’s an indicator of ego. And so I think consumers should be skeptical of paying the most in that area. Not that there’s other I mean, certainly I think in European places as well.

Alan Ramey 00:32:52 There might be other reasons why prices can get skewed by others. You know, potentially the demarcation of lines or, or historical money is a factor there too. But, you know, from California. So I’m a little more aware of my backyard growing up in that climate. I think there was a lot of skepticism towards that. And I think what you could potentially do. It could make Hildegard’s test a little more interesting is to say let’s not necessarily pick the wines that are just right now that price point, but have a history of being that price point for 30 years, and they’re selling a certain quantity of mined, meaning that the market has accepted this value for a long time period. So it’s easy for someone to charge $1,000 and then it doesn’t sell. And then they, you know, get rid of the excess. And, and but people who don’t know just think it’s expensive. But to have that track record of actually moving a wine for that long builds in a little more credibility into the idea that there might be more something behind that.

Alan Ramey 00:33:49 So I think that could be an interesting area for future research on on price to value valuation. So anyways, I think that’s that’s the one side. But then I think, yeah, bringing up Antonio Rangel’s study is fascinating. And that’s been cited a lot for obvious reasons, that it brings up this question of why am I happy? Is it the thing in my glass or is it in my head? And I think the answer is, we’d like to think it’s in our taste, the realities. And that’s our head. I think the question is, how much should you choose to take the pill that brings you to that imaginary world and enjoy that? Or how much should you push it away and taste wine purely in technical sense. And I think depending on how each individual wants to live life, they might choose different things. But I think what’s true for most people is that if even if they choose to want to, you know, go to the place and let the experience overwhelm them and have an emotional experience that might not be related to technical tasting, I think most people just don’t want to be tricked.

Alan Ramey 00:34:44 You know, they don’t want to have the same wine and one being charged twice as much. And so I think that hopefully again, with more experienced wine markets, whether you have a track record, we try our best to avoid those things.

Natalie MacLean 00:34:55 Yes, absolutely. And then you quote Janis Wang, he she tracked Oxford blind tasting students over time and found their preferences shifted toward higher acidity, lower oak wine as they gained experience and lined up with price hierarchy. She says her coach single handedly shaped the taste of generations of wine tasters. It’s a learned behavior I’m 100% sure. Is trained taste a form of expertise? Do we gradually want to drink more expensive wines, even if we don’t know the price of them? Like, do our palates gravitate that way toward bitterness or whatever acidity?

Alan Ramey 00:35:34 That is the question that defined an entire chapter in my book. And I present both sides of of that question, which is I think there’s an argument to say that a lot of this is culturally trained learnings that is a little more sociological, that is defined by companies and people with certain backgrounds.

Alan Ramey 00:35:50 And that’s the one side. And I think the other side is sort of the sensory science world, which is to say, are there certain flavors or a certain type of balance of, in this case, wine or any food really, that most humans gravitate towards naturally without training? I present both sides because it’s very tricky. I think this is the I used the exact Oxford example because I think Genesis is an excellent researcher and a really nice person too, and it was a pleasure to chat with her, and she’s done some great work and deserves more attention for her research, I think. But, it’s so hard to tease that apart. I mean, how do you do a study? Do you? Let’s make another Oxford. Where in this one you don’t have the coach and let’s, you know, it’s like you can’t just make up that. And so it’s it’s, I think there’s a little mystery in there, and I think it’s, there’s good arguments on both sides, but I think, well, I try to let my readers decide for themselves what they think.

Natalie MacLean 00:36:42 Sure. Well, we’ve always heard that the first taste we develop as babies is for something sweet. So it makes sense that there is something in the physiology happening. But Peter Daboll, who runs the wine program at King’s College, Cambridge, and is also a professor of aesthetics, argues that what makes a wine great, like a great painting, is its ability to command attention over time to stay in the market, as you were saying, like to charge a certain price, perhaps for a long time, because people value it. He says the extension of one’s attending to the object is one of the main drivers of aesthetic pleasure. Does that hold up in a world where most wine is consumed in a noisy restaurant on a Tuesday evening?

Alan Ramey 00:37:24 I see where you’re leading with the question. I think there no is the answer in many occasions. That’s very true. And I but I think that what Professor DiBella was getting at, I think, is, if anything, liberating because it’s a reminder to us that we as humans are not mere receptacles for experiences and tastes and sounds to affect us, and we have no power in it.

Alan Ramey 00:37:49 Our attention is that factor that allows us to derive more or less pleasure from something. You can walk through a museum and be in a rush on your cell phone and not care at all. Or you could stand for an hour at one painting and be amazed. And I think the exact same is true of the wine world, where you can, by slowing down and having that glass in front of you and really thinking about it, that commands your attention in a way. And I think in theory, we like the wine to be so good that you are forced to stop paying attention to other things and you pay attention to it. That’s the ideal. But I think that the good news, if you choose to take the optimist approach, is to say whatever wine you have in front of you, you can always choose to pay more attention to it and appreciate it for its whatever beauty it has. So I think that’s the way we think we perhaps more people should should live their lives. If I can make one bold statement, maybe.

Natalie MacLean 00:38:39 Absolutely. Be more present for everything. Your wine and and whatever Giacomo touches was asked what makes a great wine? And he closed his eyes. You say, rocked in his chair, and said, A great wine is the one, is one that by taking a sip and closing her eyes makes you see the immense. Has there been a wine for you, Helen, that has made you see the immense.

Alan Ramey 00:39:00 Oh, gosh, I’m not sure. I mean, it’s with poetic language. It’s always hard to know if you’re experiencing the same person, someone else’s. I, you know, but I think that’s the the blessing and the curse of of a little more of a technical approach is, I think you that everything you have, it’s you treat with a little more restraint and conservativism. It’s sort of like when you talk to professional comedians and they say, I go to a show and I don’t laugh at the jokes because I’m just looking at the comedy to study it. And I, you know, I hear a lines like that and I think, how could you not laugh? It’s it’s hilarious.

Alan Ramey 00:39:32 But I think I’ve sort of become that version of a person in wine where you’re studying everything so intensely, it can sometimes be hard to just let yourself go and enjoy it. And I think, you know, I think there’s I think for me, it’s it’s when you bring everything together, it’s a wine that is, is technically beautiful. And I think you have to have that level of inherent good that that comes in with it. And I think and also I think something that is hard to to have on an everyday basis, something that’s a really old wine that is beautiful and aged, and it’s just hard to hard to replicate that as on your normal day. And then I think it’s, you know, that the honest truth is if there’s some emotional aspect, if it’s, you know, like an old rainy cab that I know my dad and my colleagues put their attention to in 20 years ago. And so I think about all that history that went into it, and I appreciate it so much more because I know what went into it.

Alan Ramey 00:40:21 And so I think, yeah, I think some of it’s in my head and some of it’s in the glass and it’s a little bit of both. And I think in that instance, I do try sometimes to just purely enjoy and reflect. And I think there’s a lot of, you know, it’s it’s at the end of the day, it’s hard not to enjoy wine. So I find myself sometimes falling into that. And I think I like falling into it is the truth.

Natalie MacLean 00:40:41 Absolutely. That is the perfect note to end on. But before we do, because this is marvelous conversation. Is there anything we haven’t touched on that you would like to cover before I ask where we can find your book in you online.

Alan Ramey 00:40:54 I think, God, there’s a lot of things happening at the winery we’re excited to keep making on my my sister and I with Rainey. I think we’re doing our best to have a lot of wines of restraint and balance and elegance, and my sister and I have had the winery for the last five or so years now.

Alan Ramey 00:41:11 My parents, you know, are still around and we talk and communicate. So I don’t want to pretend like they’re dead. No, I wouldn’t want it at all. But it’s so it’s a pleasure to have them. But but it’s been my sister and I for a little while now, and I’ve had some amazing colleagues we have, and I think we’re if anything, I think we’re trying to push age ability even further and show that California wines can do have restraints. There are eight great independent wineries in our backyard, and I think they’re worth reconsidering and considering again. And then the other thing is, I think my sister and I have been thinking for a long time, what what can we bring to the wine world? I mean, when I joined, I did what my dad did. He learned French, went to France and brought some techniques back to California, and he learned chemistry because there was a lot of practical faults in wine. And he was able to fix that. And I think I learned French and went to France.

Alan Ramey 00:41:57 And it turns out that I realize we’re making wine in a pretty similar way. I think those cultural exchanges have been enough, and we sort of know what’s happening there now and then. And similarly, on the chemistry side, I studied chemistry and was looking at it and realizing, you know, actually, I think we’re the wines don’t need more chemistry to be better. It’s that’s not the problem now. So I think my sister and I had this question of, well, what does the next generation bring to wine? And I think we’re starting a new project called Serious Ground, where we look at Sonoma and say, look, you know, the classic first history of, of California wines was let’s take the European paradigms and apply them in this new area and see what that terroir expresses, and sort of celebrate those differences and, and enjoy more versions of Cabernet and Voire versions of Chardonnay. That’s been the first era of California’s history. And I think now that we’re officially 50 years after the Paris tasting, I think the question is, well, where do we go from here? What we realized growing up is, you know, Sonoma is not Bordeaux and is not Burgundy, and perhaps we should be making a blend.

Alan Ramey 00:42:57 That is, we can make that when I bring it back to Europe is something that they can’t necessarily make there. And so looking at Sonoma. Growing up here, I realized one of the things that makes us quite different is the climactic diversity. You know, if you’re having a hot day here, you drive out to the ocean and you’re cold and you have to put your jacket on. Or if you know you’ve got one soil type over here that’s volcanic. You can drive right over there and have something that’s useful to the ocean floor. So we have a huge amount of soil diversity. And so my sister and I are making a blend that is kind of a takes the full advantage of that, that different climate that blends things together, that comes from all these different areas. That is something that isn’t is a, I think more responsive to, to, to our backyard. And that when we bring it over will be something is something quite different. So we’re excited to to bring that out. So we’re both celebrating the classics and carrying on that legacy of old school winemaking with Raimi.

Alan Ramey 00:43:48 And then we’re also trying our best to see what we can create. That’s a that’s different and unique in our backyard right now. So we’re doing best. That’s the latest and greatest from a from out here in a in California.

Natalie MacLean 00:44:00 That’s exciting. And can people visit the winery? Are you open? You have a tasting room?

Alan Ramey 00:44:05 Yes. Just please go ahead, because sometimes it’s it’s tricky to. And we book up. So just as long as you, you check in well in advance and make a booking, it should be okay.

Natalie MacLean 00:44:13 Okay, we’ll put a link in the show notes to the winery website and contact and that sort of thing. And now with your new book, where can people find that online?

Alan Ramey 00:44:22 So if you go to the my publisher’s website, Academy, then you’ll be able to track it down right there. So if you just Google pressing matters Academy advantage should pop right up.

Natalie MacLean 00:44:30 Okay. And I’m sure it’s on places like Amazon and Barnes and Noble like chapters in Canada. Easy to get online.

Alan Ramey 00:44:37 I believe it is. Yes. Yeah.

Natalie MacLean 00:44:39 Okay. That’s great. Alan, this has been a pleasure. Thank you so much. We covered a lot of ground. I know it was complicated, but you really helped elucidate a lot of these very complex issues. So I think you’ve given us a lot to think about. So thank you for that.

Alan Ramey 00:44:55 And thank you for the interview and everything you’re doing for wine. I think it’s fantastic. And I hope you continue.

Natalie MacLean 00:45:00 Oh, absolutely. Next time we’ll have to do this in person.

Alan Ramey 00:45:04 I very much enjoy that. Thank you.

Natalie MacLean 00:45:06 Okay, great.

Natalie MacLean 00:45:12 Well, there you have it. I hope you enjoyed our chat with Alan.

Natalie MacLean 00:45:16 Here are my takeaways. Number one.

Natalie MacLean 00:45:18 Is a fully organic.

Natalie MacLean 00:45:19 Future in agricultural possible or even affordable. Alan cites Sri Lanka as an example where the government ban on synthetic fertilizers caused food prices to spike, protests and a policy reversal. Organic advocates say the transition was just too abrupt, as Alan says he thinks the first and most obvious thing is that, of course, you can’t do it overnight.

Natalie MacLean 00:45:44 He also notes that it’s less intensive farming, that there’s less potential danger because what’s being used in the vineyard isn’t harshly toxic, and therefore that diminishes some of the risks On the other side, one expert he interviewed said, if the whole world went organic, there isn’t enough manure to sustain it. And so the question is, if it’s not a long term solution, what are we doing here in terms of trying to make it the goal? It’s a great question. Number two, why has biodynamic thrived in the wine world when many of its founders ideas were rejected in medicine and education? Allen says it depends on who you talk to. In biodynamic books, you’ll find that some people were inspired by some of the tools that were advocated by Rudolf Steiner. But it’s also healthy to be aware of where those ideas come from. And if you look outside the world of wine, say, in medicine, many of Steiner’s practices have not moved forward and have been largely debunked. And while there are a few schools like Waldorf based on his principles, Most education systems around the world have rejected his approach, but Alan finds it fascinating that in the world of wine, biodynamic has become more popular than ever.

Natalie MacLean 00:47:07 Advocates say that this is a differentiable farming system, and it works, while others remain skeptical. And number three, how much of what you enjoy in wine comes from what’s in the glass versus your mental perception of what you’re drinking? As Alan says, why am I happy with this wine? Is it what’s in the glass or in my head? We’d like to think it’s our taste, but the reality is that it is in our head. The question is, how much should you choose to take the pill that brings you to that imaginary world and enjoy it? And how much should you push it away and taste wine purely in a technical sense? He thinks it depends on how each individual wants to live their lives. Many people want to go to a place and let the experience overwhelm them and have an emotional experience that may not be related at all to technical tastings. But he knows that most people don’t want to be tricked. They don’t want to have the same wine, for example, and be charged twice as much for one as the other.

Natalie MacLean 00:48:14 If you missed episode 350, go back and take a listen. I chat about can you really taste minerality in wine? Sonny Hodge offers a cynics guide to wine, and I find the two books very similar in challenging received wisdom in the wine world. I’ll share a short clip with you now to whet your appetite.

Sunny Hodge 00:48:34 We can smell some geological materials like salt and some minerals, but most minerals and metals were unable to smell and taste. And those metals that we feel that we can smell and taste. So I’m talking like, you know, when you have a coin, you put it in your fingers and it has a really distinct smell, but that’s actually a tertiary influence of our oils reacting with those metals. So a freshly minted coin has no smell. But as soon as we touch it, our oils start breaking it down. Then we smell those reactions. So technically metal and many other minerals, most other minerals except for salt, don’t have smell or taste.

Natalie MacLean 00:49:19 You won’t want to miss next week, when we chat with Nina and Ramon Bassett on Tasting Victory, the life and wines of the world’s favourite sommelier, Gerard Basset.

Natalie MacLean 00:49:29 You won’t believe the incredible things he did to win the title of the World’s Best Sommelier, and also to give you a taste of future guests, we’ll have Michael Finnerty on pairing wine and cheese. Doctor Charles Knowles, who’s just published a bestselling memoir on why we drink too much. Marisol de la Fuente on the wines of Argentina James Chatto on his new book Acquired Tastes. Liz, Gaby on Rosé and Christine Westray on Saki. Do you have a question for any of our guests? Please let me know. Do you know someone who be interested in learning more about wine, myths and misconceptions? Please let them know about this podcast. Email or text them now while you’re thinking about it. It’s easy to find the Unreserved Wine Talk podcast. Just tell them to search for that title or my name Natalie MacLean Wine on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, their favorite podcast app, or they can listen to the show on my site at Natalie MacLean. Com podcast. Email me if you have a SIP tip question, or if you’d like to win one of seven drinks books that I have to give away, including Alan’s.

Natalie MacLean 00:50:36 I’d also love to hear your thoughts on this episode, or if you’ve read my book or are listening to it. Email me at Natalie at Natalie MacLean. Com. In the show notes, you’ll also find a link to take a free online food and wine pairing class with me called the five Wine and Food Pairing Mistakes That Can Ruin Your Dinner and How to Fix Them Forever at Natalie MacLean. And that’s all in the show notes at Natalie MacLean. Thank you for taking the time to join me here. I hope something great is in your glass this week. Perhaps a glass of spring fresh organic wine?

Natalie MacLean 00:51:20 You don’t want to miss one juicy episode of this podcast, especially the secret full bodied bonus episodes that I don’t announce on social media. So subscribe for free now at Natalie MacLean. Meet me here next week. Cheers!

 

 

 

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From Hard Time to Happy Hour: The Remarkable Resurrection of McConnell’s Irish Whisky

Introduction What’s the hidden meaning behind the opaque ribbed glass at the bottom of a McConnell’s Irish Whisky bottle? What made the opportunity to revive McConnell’s Irish Whisky important enough to leave a long and secure career behind? How does a master distiller notice that something is off long before anyone else can spot it? In this episode of the Unreserved Wine Talk podcast, I’m chatting with John Kelly, CEO of the Belfast Distillery Company, responsible for reviving one of Belfast’s most famous brands, McConnell’s Irish Whisky, which actually dates back 250 years this year to 1776. You can find the wines […]

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The Ghost in the Glass: 5 Ways AI Is Rewriting the Story of Wine

Introduction If your wearable device knows your cortisol level, your heart rate, and the ambient light in your dining room, should it also choose the perfect wine for you? The Romans raved about Falernian. The Georgians were fermenting in clay vessels eight thousand years ago. Could AI finally let us taste what they were drinking? Conversely, can AI write an accurate tasting note for wine still in the bottle before a single human lifts the glass? When every appellation is covered, every vintage scored, and every back label written by an algorithm, what is a wine writer actually for? You’re going to discover […]

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More Than a Drink: Why Wine Divides & Unites Cultures with Sarah Heller MW

Introduction Why do some cultures embrace wine as a cultural expression while others see it simply as a beverage? Why do some cultures embrace wine as a cultural expression while others see it simply as a beverage? Can fine wine actually be defined, or is it something subjective to be debated? Why is it so important to identify both the aroma and structure of wines when tasting? In this episode of the Unreserved Wine Talk podcast, I’m chatting with Sarah Heller, Master of Wine. You can find the wines we discussed here.   Join me on Instagram, Facebook and YouTube Live Video Join […]

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Does Formal Wine Tasting Language Strip the Emotion Out of Wine Writing? with Sarah Heller

Introduction Why is spitting essential if you want to taste wine seriously? What made Hong Kong’s wine boom in 2010 feel both extravagant and generous? Does formal wine tasting language strip the emotion out of wine writing? In this episode of the Unreserved Wine Talk podcast, I’m chatting with Sarah Heller. You can find the wines we discussed here.   Join me on Instagram, Facebook and YouTube Live Video Join the live-stream video of this conversation on Wednesday at 7 pm eastern on Instagram Live Video, Facebook Live Video or YouTube Live Video. I’ll be jumping into the comments as […]

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